Ok. So this is SO not a new question. But I am not finding any clear answers.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Been a long time since i have posted here. Been almost that long since I got to do any woodworking/turning. But finally I got thrown in the brier patch. :) Grandma, who is 93, just got a run about powered scooter for her house. She needs the help just getting around at this point. In her kitchen right at the top of a steep set of basement stairs is where she has to make a 90 degree turn. To prevent her from going down the stairs I am building a baby - turned - Grandma gate. But this endeavor, pretty much the first non-turning I have tried, has shown me some flaws in my tool choices.

So like the subject says I have a question now that I am hoping the trusted mass voice of the Creek can help me with. I am hoping for recommendations from people who actually use tools and do woodworking. (Rather than being a framing contractor, or deck builder, or ... Not that those things are bad but the needed tolerances seem to be vastly different.) With a focus to be honest on getting real bang for the buck rather than the most expensive thing out there. Hopefully that is actually possible in this case.


When I first got started with woodworking and buying tools I made the mistake of trying to go cheap and buying tools from Harbor Freight. While there may be a few gems, and I have a few, their 10" sliding compound miter saw IS SO NOT ONE OF THEM. :( I tried to make some cuts recently just to square the end of a board and found that I can move the saw head left to right by at least 1/4 of an inch when it is extended without intentional effort and more if I really push. In looking to see if I could "fix or reduce this" I discovered that much of that flex is happening inside of the bearings on the slide rails. So this thing is going in the trash. I suppose if I was just cutting up firewood it would be fine but for anything more accurate it is just atrocious.


So in the last couple of weeks I have been researching miter saws online. Reading every review I can get my hands on. And if you listen to them Compound Miter Saws (CMS) and Sliding Compound Miter Saws (SCMS) are either the best tool ever made and how did they live without them or the absolutely the worst and were taken right back. I have been reading on DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, and the Festool Kapex (which I keep seeing in online/youtube videos). But the problem for me is that many of the reviews are all over the place.


So in reading these review I have come up with some pretty fundamental questions. Some reviews claim perfect cuts, and all the others for the saw make and model refer to massive degree failures, crappy quality, no dust collection, and wobbly blades from each and every manufacturer. I.e. no one is the stand out winner. Some of this is clearly personal preference by the reviewers but I can't tell the difference between that, a lemon, and a saw that is truly best avoided. Except now in the case of the HF special. :mad:


I do not at this time make much in the way of fine wood projects, outside of turning, but I hope too. I am working my way in that direction and would like to make things for my 3 young children. At this moment I am trying to make the "grandma gate" I mentioned to keep her and the family that visit her safe. I tried to just square up the end of some relatively long boards, about 7', and found that was really unwieldy on my table saw after giving up on the HF SCMS. I tried to cross cut the boards I had purchase into 28", 32", and 38" lengths on my table saw and this was for my shop layout and my skills/experience dangerously unwieldy. So a CMS/SCMS seems like a good idea for doing this kind of work. Cut it down, hopefully accurately and then go on thru the rest of the milling process.


Given that I assume, unlike me, many of you started out some time ago, and I would assume have upgraded tools a time or too. Do any of you creekers have suggestions that you might want to share in regards to this process and especially on a CMS/SCMS?

I swear it seems that everyone online now has a Kapex saw but I watch so many videos I might be mistaken and getting a bad sample size. That is a truly great looking saw, I even went to woodcraft and checked it out, but over $1300 is just out of my price range at the moment. Even the $500-$600 that every thing else that seems to be in the running makes me flinch just a tad. But this time I want a tool that will last "for a good long while" rather than the $100+ I put into this HF piece of junk that is now just wasted bucks.


Are there any other miter saws that you all would feel comfortable recommending to a relative beginner with somewhat modest to middling aspirations? Does one model or brand strike you as the top of the heap or even just "better" than most? Also is a 12" a necessity or is a 10" good enough? Sliding or a non-sliding saw? Etc... Seriously I am open to answers and suggestions from one and all.


Sorry to pester and annoy but hoping you will all let me pick your brains just a bit as I feel totally stuck on this one. I get that a table saw can do most if not all of this work once you master it's capabilities. But after what felt like 100 test cuts trying to align the miter gauge and discovering the the TS sled I made a few years ago, but never really used, was warped beyond all belief I am clearly not all that capable with it.


Thanks,
Joshua

[Chris Kennedy]

The first saw I bought was a Ryobi CMS nine years ago. I still have it. I tend to think of the CMS as a rough tool and so I don't have high expectations of it as compared to my table saw.

I replaced the stock blade and I spent some time squaring it up, and it is accurate and solid. My take is the difference between a $150 and a $400 CMS is that both, when adjusted are dead on at 0 degrees. If I set mine to 17 degrees, it will be in the neighborhood of 17 degrees. The $400 will be 17 degrees. So, if you are going to do a lot of angle work on the CMS that has to be precise, spend the extra money. If you are going to be doing mostly square cuts with it and precision angle cuts on something else, you can get away with a cheaper saw.

I have never had a SCMS. Don't have room for one so it isn't an issue.

Chris

[Jim Matthews]

Two questions, there...

Presuming a door cannot be installed, a section of baby crib from a movable front rail or rear upright should be wide enough to span a door.
It will need some trimming and a fixture of some kind to attach to the trim work. If the lady of the house doesn't need to go down the stairs,
I would make it difficult to remove rather than hinged.

The second question; a powered miter saw. If you're building a deck, lots of crown molding or another project that involves repetition of the same cut these are really useful.
I just sold my Bosch 4212 (not the sliding version) for a little more than $200 after using it for six years.

The last three, it just sat in my basement.

I've migrated to hand tools, and the classic miter box with a sharp saw is faster to set up and easier to move around than it's powered "Grandson".

If you must use a power tool, I recommend a well-built circular saw with track over a chopsaw/miter saw/sliding miter saw - as the later are neither portable nor flexible.
The chief benefit of a circular saw and track is that it can be stored in little space and taken to the work with little trouble.

I use a Porter-Cable circular saw with EZ Smart track which has two sections that can join together to span a sheet of plywood (more than 100").
http://www.eurekazone.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1953

I like this system as you can choose your own saw.

The Bosch saw (http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-5312-12-Inch-Bevel-Compound/dp/B003DQO7IY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373106968&sr=8-1&keywords=bosch+5312) I would buy is the current 5312

Currently available "meat powered" miter saws include the Jorgensen (http://www.tools-plus.com/jorgensen-64005.html?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=froogle&utm_term=JOR64005&gclid=CJC3w-XVmrgCFZJr7AodqScAaw) shown here.

One last note - to any powered saw you purchase you will need a decent vacuum cleaner.
Tack on that cost to your purchase. Once fine dust is in the air, you'll be clearing it off every flat surface
for months.

[Andrew Kertesz]

Quick short answer; look into a RAS (Radial Arm Saw). They are usually plentiful on CL and relatively inexpensive. Many people on the Creek and other forums swear by them.

[Scott T Smith]

Josh, I personally divide CMS and SCMS into three categories, in terms of the quality of their cut. In terms of the quality of their cut, they are 1) Framing, 2), trim, and 3) cabinetry. I own Makita, Dewalt and Festool CMS/SCMS.

The Dewalt I would categorize as a framing saw, the Makita as a trim saw, and the Kapex as a cabinetry saw. IMO, the Bosch and Hitachi would be classed as trim saws. My experience with the Kapex is that it delivers tablesaw quality cuts on oak.

Most likely a good trim saw will meet your stated needs. Another good option to consider is a high quality RAS.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm very happy with my makita LS 1016L 10" SCMS. It's as accurate as I expect this sort of tool to be over the range of its capabilities, and my expectations are high, dust collection is decent with a vacuum, even the stock blade as shipped was very good. It's convenient in use, light enough to be portable. I've used a harbor freight model, at my BIl's house.....scariest junk I've ever witnessed, similar results to yours, I gave him my old makita 1013 and bought the new one for fear he might lose a finger to that scarp heap. On the kapex, I use one at work.....save your money. It's no more accurate than any other leading SCMS, has better dust collection, that's its only claim to fame. I hear lots of festool addicts that just dropped piles of cash on is thing singing it's praises, sounds more like justification to me, but I've seen more than a few pros scratching their heads after going down that road, 'for what' is the general conclusion in my area. It's got a few "neat" gizmos like the angle splitter and the rack and pinion bevel adjust, but there is at least as much flex in that head as any I've tried, so the results in a piece of wood are no real improvement. Save your money, get a makita,mor a hitachi, Ive used those too and they are pretty reliable.

[Frederick Skelly]

I bought a 12" Makita CMS about 5 years back. I love that saw and use it all the time. But I cant speak to the very latest and greatest out there.

FWIW, I wouldnt over think it. Youve read the reviews and theyre inconclusive. Based on things Ive been reading lately, Id probably stay clear of anything Delta right now. (Which is heartbreaking, but it sounds like theres a great deal of turmoil over there.) But Ill bet a weekend woodworker could do just fine with a dewalt, makita, ridgid or other reputable brand.

For my needs, at the end of the day "all" the saw has to do is cut an accurate line and last a long time. All the rest is nice, but not required. (Disclaimer: It might be a different story if you make a living building high end products.)

Fred

[Charles McClain]

To me what you are doing would be two operations. First break down a 7’ board into manageable pieces and second true and cut them to final length. I’m a hobbyist so I’m not counting seconds on every project and my workflow may differ from others. My first step is to layout the pieces somewhat oversized starting with the largest piece and working my way to the smallest with lumber crayon accuracy. I usually use a jig saw to break down solid lumber from there but a circular saw with a framing square or a hand saw would be fine at that point. Then, joint, plane, rip and final length/angle/miter, most of the time that’s on the table saw for me because with the stops on my miter gauge it’s very easy to get repeatable results (I don’t’ have stops on my miter saw, yet).
I do have the Kapex and it’s nice but I think all compound miter saws are really construction tools. If I’m putting up trim or doing home improvement then it’s the Kapex but if you want perfect angles or to sneak up on fit it’s hard to beat a shooting board and a hand plane. But, that’s it’s own rabbit hole which can make a Kapex seem down right reasonable.

[Sam Murdoch]

For nearly all trim work (except for cutting big crown) and for lots of homeowner type framing - cutting 2x4s and some 2x6s but not 2x8s or bigger a truly exceptional saw is this one Makita’s LS0714 Quad 10 Amp 7-1/2-Inch Single Bevel Sliding Compound Miter Saw reviewed here- http://slidingcompoundmitresaws.com/about/makita-ls0714-single-bevel-sliding-compound-miter-saw-review/. It is very accurate, very light (read easily moved from room to room or shop to truck or car) , takes up little space, will cut a surprising range of wood from little pieces to 2-3/4" square posts and is not complicated or intimidating in any way. I can't recommend it enough.I am a full time cabinet/furniture builder who uses this saw 99.9% of the time. I occasionally haul out a behemoth Hitachi 14" but that is very specific use tool. The only down side to the little Makita is that finding the right size blade is not as easy as driving to the lumber yard. It is pretty much an online purchase through a Makita dealer. Forrest also offer a Chopmaster blade that fits.

These days I would be more inclined to eliminate a table saw from my list in favor of a decent bandsaw (for occasional ripping of hardwood among all the other things a bandsaw can do) and a Track saw for making sheet goods smaller. I am proponent of Festool - especially the TS 55 EQ tack saw, the ETS 150 sanders and the Domino. So much a woodworker can do with these tools. Nearly right away, you will need a drill /driver and a variety of clamps and soon enough - good chisels and a few handsaws, and eventually a jointer, a drill press and so the list continues...

None of the above are inexpensive. No way to compete with HF. Personally I research like a man possessed and then I buy the best I can afford. I am by no stretch a rich man in regards to money - rather more like a marginally fed artist - but I do good work :) . With each purchase I am fully aware that I am still making compromises. Very few regrets after all and none in regards to the tools mentioned.

[Jim Matthews]

Quick short answer; look into a RAS (Radial Arm Saw). They are usually plentiful on CL and relatively inexpensive. Many people on the Creek and other forums swear by them.

When you've finished that, look up the number of amputations with a RAS.
It's not a tool for novice users. http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/108980/statsaws.pdf

At a minimum, purchase a RAS with proper pawls to prevent the blade from driving itself toward you and a complete guard.
This is a useful tool, commonly available and unforgiving of the unwary.

[Rick Potter]

I would suggest, if you need a compound miter saw, and don't wish to spend too much, any used (not abused) name brand saw will probably satisfy you, and a 10" slider will be just fine for almost anything you do. I just looked on my local craigs list, and it showed 100 local saws available.

Rick Potter

[Tom Ewell]

don't forget to look at refurbished gear, most I've purchased have been in excellent shape.
A decent 10" slider (makita, bosch, dewalt, hitachi etc.) should serve well in combination with a good blade.

[Roy Turbett]

When you've finished that, look up the number of amputations with a RAS.
It's not a tool for novice users. http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/108980/statsaws.pdf

At a minimum, purchase a RAS with proper pawls to prevent the blade from driving itself toward you and a complete guard.
This is a useful tool, commonly available and unforgiving of the unwary.

Jim - According to the link 38.7% of injuries were using a table/bench saw, 21.4% a handheld saw, and only 4.1% were using a bandsaw/radial arm saw with 35.8% saw type not determined. How do you conclude that a RAS is more dangerous? I agree with your comment that a proper blade and kickback pawls help to prevent injuries, but the study also notes that the guards on table saws are also frequently missing. Bottom line is that any power tool can be dangerous.

[Val Kosmider]

Okay...I'll do some more digging, but sometime in the last 12 months, FWW (or FHB) did a short article on a new model SCMS from Bosch. It had a lot of good features, but, IIRC, it was a 10" saw which kept the cost somewhat reasonable. I thought to myself at the time 'there's the SCMS for me' when the time arrives. I'll do some digging and see if I can't find the half-page article on this saw and send you the info. It was NOT part of their 'tool test' of CMS's, but rather sort of mentioning a new introduction in the field. For the $$$, they had a lot of good things to say about the saw.

[Jim Neeley]

Joshua,

From a different perspective..

You've said you want accuracy in your cut. High accuracy in a sliding compound miter saw is expensive because there are so many moving parts. The wiggles in each piece add up in determining the overall wiggle, so each piece needs even tighter tolerances. Everything else being equal, you will have less wiggle in a non-slider.

If the extra-wide cut is what you need then you'll be pulling out your checkbook but good money can be saved going with a non-slider if you don't. Even my Bosch Glide has a glide-lock they recommend for the highest accuracy cuts when the glide isn't required.

Jim

[John Piwaron]

First, the reviews. When I'm looking at them, I look with an eye towards my intended use. That usually clears things up nicely.

I have a DeWalt DW705 12" compound miter saw. My copy of that model has been rock solid. Accurate, and with a replacement blade (Forrest Chopmaster) it yields glass smooth cuts. Years ago I built a table/lumber rack that's cantilevered from a wall in my shop. The miter saw rests in a depressed section in the middle of the table. There are a pair of "arms" above it on which I have a substantial amount of lumber. Mostly hard maple and cherry. I've had the saw 20 or so years. It's still working like new.

A couple of months ago, for no more reason than "I want one" I looked at the Kapex as a replacement. It's got a little more capacity and better dust collection. After some careful measurements I know I'm not likely to have one in my shop. Not without redesigning and replacing my miter saw table/lumber rack. The Kapex is too high to fit in it. I think I could raise the lumber above but I don't care to lose any of that storage. Especially since it seems that every "improvement" to a tool (new workbench, router table, TS) seems to result in loss of lumber storage.

I think you should keep sharp focus on what you need rather than on what you may want. A good compound miter saw may be just the thing. Or it may not. Maybe a SCMS is right for you. Buy appropriately. Don't be confused by reviews. Why'd one reviewer give it 5 stars? Is it just because he/she liked it's color? Did it get a 1 star 'cause they were upset that it arrived while they were in the shower? Yes, some reviews do get that silly.

And maybe after your careful consideration you decide you don't need one after all. For example, if you were to buy a European sliding table saw, that machine would obviate the need for a powered miter saw. So would a sled on top of your table saw. If you have one.

[Jim Matthews]

If the results are weighted by population, the Radial arm saw contributes a disproportionate number of injuries.
It's the Pit Bull of power tools. Not many in use, lots of injuries associated with them.

By way of illustration, it might be concluded that the Honda Accord was a particularly faulty vehicle as so many accidents occur in them.
They are widely distributed and driven, so their exposure to accident is higher.

There are considerable accidents with tablesaws (including kickbacks).
The RAS is set up such that the rotating blade drives the motor along it's carriage towards it's user.

That's a design flaw, in my opinion.

[Greg Portland]

To prevent her from going down the stairs I am building a baby - turned - Grandma gate.For the gate, why not get a steel (baby) gate and install it with 3"-4" quality screws (not drywall screws)?

For basic trim work with a portable machine I really like the newer Milwaukee saw (even over the Makita). Festool is great but $$$. If I were spending over $1k then I'd start to look at used industrial equipment (CTD, OMGA, etc.) because portability is not a concern for me.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Greg,

a reasonable question. We as a family started there. Bottom line, she is a very stubborn woman didn't like the look of it in her house. But a nice stained wood one worked wonders for her. I showed her the turned balusters and she loved them.

Joshua



For the gate, why not get a steel (baby) gate and install it with 3"-4" quality screws (not drywall screws)?

For basic trim work with a portable machine I really like the newer Milwaukee saw (even over the Makita). Festool is great but $$$. If I were spending over $1k then I'd start to look at used industrial equipment (CTD, OMGA, etc.) because portability is not a concern for me.[/COLOR]

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I wanted to thank you all for the replies.

I continued to shop and then came the same conclusion that Charles mentioned. Being a turner and not a furniture builder I had made some bad assumptions. I kept thinking I should be able to cut the wood and get it nice and square. I mean I have seen people make picture frames with 45 degree mitered ends so... But the more I have dug in and read what was answered here in this thread and on the Creek the more I have come to the conclusion that for me... I don't really need a new miter saw. Oh sure a more expensive one will definitely produce a better cut. And I may pick one up at some point. But I think that what I will do for now, haven't had a single moment to work on it since I posted this here, is rough cut with the miter saw, leaving things and inch or so long and then get a very true cut with my table saw.

Which means now I have to start researching how to do that. :) I have a table saw I have only used 2 or 3 times total but got it on a great sale 4 or so years ago. A Ridgid R4511 granite top. Picked it up a the local HD for $168. Like I said t good to pass up. But it scares me a bit so I rarely use it. Time to get over that and get on with learning to use it.

Thanks to one and all for the thoughts, information, and replies. They were beyond helpful for me.

Joshua

P.S. I do actually own a radial arm saw. I bought a quite old used one from the local classifieds for $50 6 or so years ago. I have never turned it on or used it. It is actually at a friends house and has been for years now. But I hadn't really thought of doing the squaring cuts with that either. For now the table saw is here and likely my best bet.

[Aleks Hunter]

Yiikes, without some good training a radial arm saw is a call to 911 waiting to happen!

Josh, I'm going to go off the reservation a bit here and suggest that you look at Eureka zone's saw tracks Google them). Its like the same idea as festool and dewalt's dedicated track saw except that you mount a standard circular saw, a tool that you will find is much more utilitarian than either a CMS or a RAS. The beauty of the Eureka Zone tracks is that it has a consumable weatherstrip on the edge that you cut with the saw before you use it so when you draw a line on your workpiece set the edge of the weatherstrip on that line and that is exactly where your blade cuts. If you can draw a line square to an edge, or at any angle you can cut it. Initial setup is about a half an hour. The track saw setup is the go to for me more than anything else. Put a decent circ saw on it with a good blade and there is very little sanding to do.

[Frederick Skelly]

At 93, shes entitled to be stubborn. Youre very fortunate shes still with you! God bless her.

[John Downey]

The table saw you have is the way to go. If you want to just spend some $$$ and get square cuts, you can buy an aftermarket miter jig (I like the Kreg jig, but there are many to choose from, all work just fine). You can also tune up the miter jig that came with it, someone is sure to have a thread about that here somewhere.

Ironically, I'm vastly more scared of my lathe than my table saw :D I find the table saw predictable, and the lathe very unpredictable. Of course, neither has ever bit me, with the lathe it's more worry about wrecking my work. If you ever fire up the RAS, get a 0 or negative hook blade for it, that will make it much less aggressive and much easier to use. I used one once that had a framing blade on it (about a 20 degree hook). It did cut fast, I'll give it that :D