Grindy Water Stone ?

[Tony Wilkins]

In my continuing message to spend my money :) I'm looking at a water stone to take the 'grinding' duties at the low edge of the grit range. Suggestions?

[Steve Friedman]

I recommend the Suehiro Cerax #320 grit. It is a bit messy and needs to be flattened often, but (I understand) that's the price of using a water stone at the low grit. I also have the Sigma #400, which I like and use, but it's not anywhere near as abrasive as the Cerax.

I have also used the Sigma #120, but it glazes easily and needs a lot of water and loose grit to keep cutting. The Cerax is much less abrasive, but I can go to it straight from 80 grit sandpaper with no problem.

Steve

[Jim Matthews]

Norton (http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/catalog/Norton_220_Grit.htm)makes a 220 grit stone that cuts fast.

It needs to be flattened, or course.
Not bad for less the $30.

[David Weaver]

pink brick or naniwa omura. Both lose flatness fast. I have the pink brick, it sheds grit like crazy, but it's fast and cuts anything because of it.

Chef knives to go and some other place have it for around $50 or a little less. Avoid japan woodworker or anyone else charging $70+ for the same thing.

Your other choice is a new norton crystolon stone (medium and in the long size for the IM-313 norton setup). They cut mad crazy and are friable, they have to be new crystolons, though, the older ones aren't friable and they're a pain to use. They aren't necessarily that cheap, but might be a little less of a pain than the thirsty porous bricks.

Still rather have a grinder than any of them. Allows you to be a lot more precise with your sharpening.

[Winton Applegate]

Shapton Pro White stone
I believe it is 120
Buy here; great out fit.
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm

I have many others. This one is far superior in cutting speed and staying flat.

[Stuart Tierney]

Shapton Pro White stone
I believe it is 120
Buy here; great out fit.
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm

I have many others. This one is far superior in cutting speed and staying flat.

You have got to be kidding me.

I've got one. Too expensive, too slow, too gutless, too thin and dishes too fast. The ONLY good point it has it that it doesn't actually need soaking, and that being a 'good' point is dependent on who's using it.

And the other good point is I sure as heck didn't have to cough up $60 for it.

Note; the rules here (rightly) mean I cannot make a suggestion for the OP.


Stu.

[Jim Neeley]

Craftsman's Studio is a great place to buy your tools indeed. I've bought a lot of my Shaptons, Lie-Nielsen's, Starretts and many other from Bill. He's a well-equipped one-man shop.

You can also see, right from the web site what he has in stock and what would be backordered if you order today.

As for myself, I've taken quite a liking to cocobolo handles on my L-N tools and he can ship many of those in coco the same day or the next. I have a LN skew block plane I use for most of my block plane needs but want this for the "smaller cuts". I'm probably out of the ordinary but the low-angle and adjustable mouth planes I've tried just don't feel right in my hand.

Go with what works and feels good!! :)

[Chris Griggs]

I've got one. Too expensive, too slow, too gutless, too thin and dishes too fast. The ONLY good point it has it that it doesn't actually need soaking, and that being a 'good' point is dependent on who's using it.


Agreed. I've got Orlando's old one, that he gave to Archie, who than gave it to me. Not bad...actually given what I paid for it (nothing) very very nice. Gets the job done. Works reasonably fast when you keep it refreshed. Dishes a little fast, not horribly so, and is easy to flatten, but more dish resistance would be better. Its not there is anything wrong with it, its a good stone, BUT, thing is all in all you can get a stone that is much MUCH faster and just a bit dishier or you can get a stone that is a little faster and MUCH MUCH more dish resistant. So buying new, there are better options. Sig 400 is quite nice but I was always a big fan of the King 300 (do not let the name fool you).

[Steve Friedman]

I would suggets you contact Stu at Tools From Japan. I didn't realize the rules here prevent him from suggesting stones because he sells them. Hope it doesn't violate the rules here, but here are some excerpts from what Stu wrote (elsewhere) about coarse stones around a year ago:


As far as stones go, there are two 'coarse' stones that I tend to use regularly for those times when a #1000 range stone isn't quite aggressive enough.

One is the Sigma #400. For flattening backs, it's great. Of course, it's the only sharpening stone ever purposely designed to 'flatten blade backs'. It's not perfect, as it's stupefyingly hard and durable, so getting it flat can be a problem. Also because it's so hard, it's not as fast as some stones in the grit range. That's the trade off for it being so good at flattening blade backs. It's one of the only stones of the #300-500 range that doesn't suffer from dishing to any extent which is what makes it stand out, and it can be made to work faster if needed. The nice thing about a stone like this one is that it can be made to work differently if needed. Not a lot of stones allow themselves to be used differently, and occasionally 'changing' them is a one way trip.

The other is the Suehiro cerax #320. This is the 'yang' to the Sigma #400 'ying'. Where the Sigma is hard and stays flat but still works well, the cerax #320 isn't quite so hard and is quite fast, but still manages to stay useably flat (will get good work done before needing flattening again). Compared to practically any other stone of comparable grit, it's faster and matches most for dish resistance. It's very, very good and at the moment, a bit of a secret.

My regret is that I didn't know about the cerax until quite recently. It's good enough that if I had known about it, the Sigma #400 may never have come in to being. So not much of a regret really, but still I hate finding something 'good' long after I should have known about it.

Lower grit Shaptons, no.
Pro 120 is too soft, too thin to get away with it.
Pro 220 is too hard, doesn't work properly.
Pro 320, I dunno. Might be ok, but too much money, not enough substance.

GS 120 is too hard, doesn't work properly.
GS 320 isn't too bad, but it's 5mm thick and not cheap.
GS 500 is a little faster than the Sigma 400, dishes more, will last about 1/5-1/8 as long as the Sigma, if it's lucky.

Sigma Select II 240 is not bad, but a little soft. It was this softness/friability that makes it fast and fairly smooth, but also one of the reasons the 400 came into being, to address the dishing issue.

Naniwa Superstones, nope. No guts at all. Nice stones, but what the label says doesn't reflect the performance at all.

Beston #500 isn't bad. Quite aggressive, durable and will last a long time I think. Problem is the cerax is just as aggressive, less gritty, stays flatter and will last longer.

Gokumyo Taiga #300, nope. It's the Sigma #400 compressed into a 10mm thick stone. Literally, that's what it is. Not as fast as the Sigma, but stays flatter.

Gokumyo Ryu #300, umm... Take the Sigma #400 and cerax #320 and stick them in a broom cupboard. Wait 3 months (gestation period of stones I believe) and that's the 'soft' side. The hard side is the same as the Taiga, as in everything the Shapton Glass Stone promised to be with regard to it being a 'full sized stone' squashed into a thinner package and actually delivers on the promise. Stays flatter than anything else out there, cuts a little better than an equivalent diamond plate and does it for much longer than a diamond plate can. Yeah, it's freaky good but the price is the stumbling block. If it was half the price, we wouldn't be having these kinds of conversations, we'd all just buy Gokumyo Ryu stones and be done with it.


Hope this helps.

Steve

[Harold Burrell]

I would suggets you contact Stu at Tools From Japan. I didn't realize the rules here prevent him from suggesting stones because he sells them. Hope it doesn't violate the rules here, but here are some excerpts from what Stu wrote (elsewhere) about coarse stones around a year ago:...



Good post, Steve. Thanks for sharing that.

[David Weaver]

You have got to be kidding me.

I've got one. Too expensive, too slow, too gutless, too thin and dishes too fast. The ONLY good point it has it that it doesn't actually need soaking, and that being a 'good' point is dependent on who's using it.

And the other good point is I sure as heck didn't have to cough up $60 for it.

Note; the rules here (rightly) mean I cannot make a suggestion for the OP.


Stu.

What, no shot about the pink brick and the omura? Must be busy there!

I've given up on hard for the very coarse stones #100 and #200 and realize that a huge stone that can be consumed without caring isn't such a bad thing. Flatness in a grinding stone isn't as critical as later, anyway (at least as long as we're not talking about large laminated japanese irons), it's just establishing some general primary grind or removing problems.

First thing I liked a softer stone over a harder one on. Just never could find a good 150 grit stone that was really hard. Even the new crystolons are a lot nicer to use than the old ones that have hardened over time.

[Tony Wilkins]

Yes, very informative Steve (and Stu).

[Stew Hagerty]

I know you said "water stone" but, for what it's worth, I thought I'd throw out the idea of a Course India Oilstone. It reforms primary bevels on A2 plane irons very quickly. I got mine from T4WW for $16.95. At that price, I would say it'd be very hard to beat.

[Steve Friedman]

I know you said "water stone" but, for what it's worth, I thought I'd throw out the idea of a Course India Oilstone. It reforms primary bevels on A2 plane irons very quickly. I got mine from T4WW for $16.95. At that price, I would say it'd be very hard to beat.
Stew,

That's really interesting. I have never tried oilstones because most of my blades are A2 and most of what I have read says that oilstones and A2 don't get along well. But, for $16.95 I am definitely going to give that a shot.

Thanks.

Steve

[Chris Griggs]

Stew,

That's really interesting. I have never tried oilstones because most of my blades are A2 and most of what I have read says that oilstones and A2 don't get along well. But, for $16.95 I am definitely going to give that a shot.

Thanks.

Steve

Its more natural arks that have trouble with A2. India's are pretty much just AlOx so they cut it fine. BUT they're not friable like waterstones so once they wear in a little you need to rough them up to keep them cutting well on things that aren't just pure carbon steel. And if you rough them up they will chew through carbon steel in particular. My medium india was very aggressive new, but it wore in pretty quickly. Same goes for naturals too actually just to a lesser extent ..they actually can cut A2 ok also, but you NEED to keep them roughed up and or keep the amount of steel you are working to a minimum to have any sort of efficiency at it. I've gotten great results on A2 with my natural arks, but I always go back to my water stones because I don't need to think about what I'm putting on them, and adjust how I use them depending on the hardness/complexity of the steel.

[dan sherman]

I have to ask, why not just use a bench grinder?

[Chris Griggs]

I have to ask, why not just use a bench grinder?

Said the elephant in the room :)

[David Weaver]

India and crystolon stones will work fine with A2. The novaculite stones are the ones that don't get along so well with the A2, but even they can be used with it. It's just slower and suboptimal.

Usually, when someone describes A2 as being a steel that doesn't get sharp, they're using either a more coarse finish stone or they're using one with a soft abrasive. novaculite itself isn't a lot harder (maybe not any harder) than a hard steel file blank.

Anyway, india and crystolon stones work fine. India stones need excitement on the surface for fast work, though, but they are good and hard. The crystolon stones are softer and probably faster cutting, they shed grit on their own, and as far as I can tell, there is not tons of difference between a new crystolon stone and the SP 120 (which I haven't used, just speculating based on what it's made of). If coarse silicon carbide grit is required to keep the SP 120 clean and cutting quickly, it's probably harder.

No clue where the big sp #120 went (maybe I'm imagining that it existed), but at the current exchange rates, stu's stone is pretty well priced vs. the nortons.

[Tony Wilkins]

Re bench grinder - thought about it but don't know that I trust myself with a wheel grinding - figure it's slower for me to screw up a blade using my own power.

[Steve Friedman]

I have to ask, why not just use a bench grinder?
My grinder has blued way too many edges already. I already removed the grinder wheels and put felt and leather wheels on instead.

Steve

[dan sherman]

Re bench grinder - thought about it but don't know that I trust myself with a wheel grinding - figure it's slower for me to screw up a blade using my own power.

the right wheels will help a lot, and if you're really worried you could go with a hand cranked one.

[Tony Wilkins]

Can someone link a good bench grinder set-up so I can look into it as well?

[dan sherman]

Can someone link a good bench grinder set-up so I can look into it as well?


what's your budget? grinders can be dirt cheap or super expensive, they can be store bought or homemade.

[David Weaver]

For inexpensive, any foreign 6" full speed grinder with two-piece rests is fine. Buy it local so that if the first one is bad, you can just exchange it without paying to ship it. Figure that you'll need to spend a few bucks on decent wheels then, because the gray ones that come with the grinder will probably be out of balance.

[Federico Mena Quintero]

+1 on the grinder vs. a coarse stone.

I have a 300-grit stone which has become VERY dished from trying to grind stuff with it. I stopped using it after getting a hand-cranked grinder.

What will you be grinding? I've found that at least on my tools, a 30-second touchup on the hand grinder is more than enough to fix pretty much anything that *requires* grinding. That used to take forever on the stone. You just can't achieve the stone-centimeters-per-second with a static stone.

I haven't made irons or chisels from scratch; maybe a powered grinder would really help with those bigger grinding jobs.

[dan sherman]

I know some people won't agree, but id recommend a variable speed 8" grinder like this turned all the way down.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_80500-46069-PCB575BG_0__?Ntt=pcb575bg&UserSearch=pcb575bg&productId=3162497&rpp=32

I'd also recommend a surface grinding wheel like this.
http://www.amazon.com/CAMEL-Ceramic-Surface-Grinding-Wheel/dp/B005UO0NHQ/ref=sr_1_16?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1372878569&sr=1-16&keywords=cgw+as

it's smaller diameter will help slow things down, it's low grit, and 30% ceramic means it will shred through steel, and it's H softness means it will refresh quickly.

[Chris Griggs]

I know some people won't agree, but id recommend a variable speed 8" grinder like this turned all the way down.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_80500-46069-PCB575BG_0__?Ntt=pcb575bg&UserSearch=pcb575bg&productId=3162497&rpp=32


No disagreement from me. That's a real nice grinder for the money. I have the 6" version, and use it on full speed, with the gray wheel. Take that same 6", turn it down to low, and stick a friable wheel on it and you'll have to make and active effort to ruin the edge.

[Stew Hagerty]

Stew,

That's really interesting. I have never tried oilstones because most of my blades are A2 and most of what I have read says that oilstones and A2 don't get along well. But, for $16.95 I am definitely going to give that a shot.

Thanks.

Steve

I have 5 stones, Course India, Medium India, Soft Arkansas, Hard Select Arkansas, and Black Arkansas (all the Arkansas stones are from Dan's). All 5 are 8x3x1/2" and I could not be happier. I have some very old planes with the heavy original irons, I have some old Stanleys with their original blades and some with Hock replacements, I have O1 and A2 chisels, and I have some newer planes with hard A2 irons. In my opinion, these 5 stones work very well on everything, including the A2. Chris Schwarz is the one that convinced me that going oil was perfectly fine. I took the leap and I've never looked back. The only thing I did differently from what he suggested was that I added the Hard Select in between the Soft and the Black. On the A2, it did seem to take a bit too much effort to hone out the scratches. With the Hard Select in between, it problem was solved.

[bridger berdel]

i have an $8 chinese grocery store stone- 180/320 grit, pretty big block of aggressive grit. i mostly use it to flatten waterstones, but it works fine for rough work on steel. and it's cheap and locally available.

[Rick Fisher]

I have the Sigma 400 and the Sigma 120 ..

The 400 is an amazing stone.. I don't find that it cuts super fast, but it doesn't dish .. I actually find the Sigma 1000 cuts almost as fast, but it dishes faster.

The Sigma 120 cuts fast, but it glazes fast and is a pain to keep clean. I really don't prefer it but its okay ..

I would be curious to try the Sigma 220 .. Almost ordered one from LV with the free shipping.