How I use the Knew Concepts fretsaw

[Derek Cohen]

There have been a few posts on the forums about purchasing the KC fretsaw, and one that said that the new version was too heavy. I thought that I would write a note about how I use this fretsaw.


For reference, there is an article I wrote about the development of the KC fretsaw for use in woodworking. This details how it came about and how it evolved: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html


Having been there at the beginning, it is not surprising that I am still interested, although I no longer have input into the design. My good fortune is to have a great friend in Lee Marshall, who sends me saws and asks my opinion.


Here is the new (left) and the original (right) versions of the 5" fretsaw:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC7_zpsff124b98.jpg


The change in the construction of the titanium model was forced upon Lee by the cost of the material. Lee had to find a better way of using it - a one-piece construction was too wasteful of titanium sheets. The "Birdcage" design came about (my name for it is the "Eiffel Tower" :) ).


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC6_zps8a915075.jpg


I raised concerns (from photos) with Lee even before I had a chance to try it out: the reason why the original fretsaw has been such a hit is partly because the frame is so stiff to create high blade tension, and partly because it is so light to create great control. The new saw design threatened to maintain the stiffness but lose the lightness where it counted, at the back where it affected the balance.


Lee sent me a fretsaw (actually, he sent me the new coping saw as well - more later), and I had the opportunity to put it through its paces. This was quite recently, and it was used in my current project, the kist - there were certainly a good many dovetails to saw out in hard and chewy Curly Marri.


Well I was correct about the back of the saw weighing more and changing the balance of the saw. It must be pointed out that this would likely go unnoticed by those who did not have the opportunity to use the two saws side-by-side. The differences are not great, but are real. I thought that the new saw was not as nice to use as the original version.


Another set of pics:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC8_zpsdd0d736d.jpg


The other change was a slightly improved blade adjustment mechanism courtesy of a wider knurled knob. I think that the knurled knobs for the blade were made standard a while ago, but they were originally T-bars, which did not look nearly as nice or work as well.


Old above, new below ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC9_zpsa2488678.jpg


What was improved was the blade tension. The original saw created high tension. The new version goes a little better. More tension is good tension.


It dawned on me that I could use the saw differently for dovetail waste removal. One of the factors that stirred my thoughts was my preference in handle. The original saw came with a handle that I considered to be too short ... but then I like longer handles in my chisels, so that should not come as a surprise to those who have read my comments on chisel handle design. Lee agreed that the (original) fretsaw handles could be improved, however he saw this as an improvement in looks/materials and not design. If you want a handle made from a more exotic wood, Elkhead Tools make them, and they are indeed stunning!


http://www.knewconcepts.com/img/woodhandles.jpg


There is no doubt that these fretsaw handles are in the same class as the Dave Jeske's Blue Spruce chisel handles, which I consider the best around. But they are not my design of choice.


My preference is for a handle that is longer still. Here you can see the KC handles alongside one I made ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC10_zps35301c96.jpg


It was this handle that gave me the idea to use the new fretsaw with two hands rather than one ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC2_zps10399746.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC4_zps3cc1009d.jpg


What a difference! Now the saw was completely rock solid and balanced.


I have used this grip on the KC coping saw as well. Again it creates a solid, balanced saw for great control ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC3_zpsef2af462.jpg


The KC saws may be used with the existing handles. They do not need to be changed out. However, the double-handed grip is easier with a longer handle. Easy enough to make if you prefer this. Or get one made (try Elkhead). If others agree, I will work on Lee to offer the longer handle.


Bottom line: if you have the original version, you have a great saw. If you have the new version, you have an improved version of a great saw.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks for the review, these saws are on my short list of things to add to my work shop.

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

Interesting. I recently wrote an article in F&C 207 about the new saws, birdcage and coping, and various other related things.

It seemed to me that the birdcage design was significantly stiffer (tension) and much less prone to twist than the earlier sheet model. For these reasons I preferred it.

We were always taught to hold the handle of piercing and coping saws with two hands, much better control. It is reassuring to find that you got there by experiment. ~;-)#

I do like your longer handle.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for keep us all up to date on the KC improvements.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Dag nabbit Derek. Had forgotten these suckers so now I have something else to consider ;)

[Jim Neeley]

I'd like to add a quick word here: Yesterday I received my Elkhead handle for the Knew Concepts I've had for a year or so. I ordered the large handle as I have big ol' mitts for hands and I want to share with all that when they say "Large", they are not kidding. It fits my hands well but is on the larger (rather than smaller as most handles are) side of my ideal.

They are exceptionally well made and the brass likely well machined.


As for the saw compared to my old saw, I'd never go back!

Jim in Alaska

[David Weaver]

I got one of the aluminum fret saws before any of the other saws were available. It's equivalent to the lowest end of the saws that KC sells now.

But I got a real shock when I went out to look at the current crop of saws....what I see is $215 for a 5 inch fretsaw and $80-$85 for a handle to put on it if one doesn't like stock. That's $300.

I'm stunned. I know people who live in houses full of sharpening stones shouldn't throw fretsaws, but wow, it is the gilded age.

I'm still looking for a jeweler who wants my old one, admittedly I haven't looked far yet.

[Jim Neeley]

How many sharpening stones *do* you have all together, David? ..and how many have you bought and re-sold?

Maybe a few duplicate planes or chisels? We all have our vices. <ewg>

My name is Jim and I am a tool-o-holic. :D

Jim

[David Weaver]

Yeah, my name's David and I have problems, too :)

I don't know how many stones I have. Maybe 40 or 50 right now that aren't just little junk slips or something. Like every junkie, the next one will be the last one I need to get.

[Tom Scott]

The new version looks like something a structural engineer would design. The webs are all in tension and the triangular truss at the top (though heavier) would add a lot of torsional stiffness to decrease chance of lateral displacement.

[Randy Karst]

I had opportunity to look and play with these saws a little at the Pasadena Woodworking in America conference last October along with the ElkHead handles and while I thought they handled nicely (no pun intended), like David, I could not balance the price / performance ratio. Not throwing any stones (too much glass in my house) but couldn't pull the trigger on these either. Having said that, more control is a beautiful thing-I am curious about longer handled versions.

[george wilson]

I guess I need to get out a piece of aluminum and start milling on it,but naw. I don't think I'm going to sprain my wristipoos using a conventional old German jeweler's saw.

[David Weaver]

Make one out of bronze to match the drill!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I hit the Knew Concepts website for the first time in a long while - part of me really wants that precision saw guide (http://knewconcepts.com/precision.php) saw set up for next time I do fingerboard inlay, if ever.

But I was surprised, the Aluminum models are cheaper than I expected. Not drop-in-the-bucket cheap like the German saws that LV and others sells, but I was surprised. The 5 inch with the lever tension and swivel is 95 bucks.

For those that have used both, how much "better" is the titanium?

[Mel Fulks]

Didn't know those things were so pricey! I like those 19th century German saws ,they look like new standard stuff but are springy and provide good tension. Admit they don't have reach of new 'bridge' saws.

[george wilson]

The old German saws are apparently forged rather than having their thick sections spot welded on. I use the rather plain Swiss jewelers saws a lot. They are the ones with black rubber handles. Their chucks are round,with little round holes to insert the blades. They're pretty handy,if not artistic looking.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have the older Titanium model with smaller adjusting knobs. I am thinking about making a better, longer handle. It looks like my handle is just held on with a pin through the handle. I imagine there is some part of the frame inside the handle that the pin slides through to hold the handle on?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Just knock out the pins and the handle wil come off.

If you are planning on a longer handle ...

The original handle is 4 1/4" long. Mine is 5 1/2" long.

Here is a better look (on an early prototype) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[peter gagliardi]

As someone who has used and only been able to find the generic lumberyard coping saws, along with the blades that are no longer ground, but punched out garbage. Neither appears to have the quality to last or cut for very long. Now that I see there is at least a quality alternative for the frames themselves, though admittedly not cheap, is there a source for top quality blades?? Early on in my career I had a nice saw frame, and came across an old pack of Disston blades- unfortunately blades are wore out, and the frame has disappeared.
I do however remember what a pleasure it was to use a quality, sharp tool that was capable and willing to do what was asked of it!!
So, who has the best blades ??

Peter

[Hilton Ralphs]

Dunno about the 'best' but Lee Valley has a decent range.

[Chris Griggs]

For coping saws I really like the skip tooth blades TFWW sells. Don't know about fret saw blades.

[peter gagliardi]

Chris, thanks for the reply. I know I should know what TFWW stands for, but it isn't obvious yet, as most abbreviations aren't to me .
Peter

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Peter

I use blades recommended to me by Lee Marshall (of KC). These are the Pegas skip tooth #7, which is a 15 tpi.

Link: http://bensscrollsaw.com/blade.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, thanks for the reply. I know I should know what TFWW stands for, but it isn't obvious yet, as most abbreviations aren't to me .
Peter

Tools For Working Wood :-)

Great retailer!

[peter gagliardi]

Got it, thanks!

[Mike Holbrook]

Highland Woodworking carries the Knew Concepts saws and a good selection of blades from several different manufacturers, more than I had any idea what to do with.

Thanks for the info. Derek. I will try to find a brass ring as nice as the one on the handle you made. I will go at least 5.5".

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If I remember correctly, the blades Tools For Working Wood carries are the Olson brand - which I think are available from other manufacturers as well. (I love TFWW, but sometimes it makes sense to save on shipping if you're ordering other stuff from elsewhere.) But yeah, I agree with Chris, those skip-tooth blades they have are great - I use them for most of my coping saw needs. I also really like the Olson coping saw they sell, although sooner or later I'm going to need to pin the handle on mine, it does sometimes come loose from the frame.

[Tim Put]

Re: blades

I buy blades from wherever is convenient, usually Lee Valley, and touch them up. After a quick once over with a triangular file I take a mill file to the sides and file in a pseudo-taper grind until I'm just beginning to remove set (this also removes the burrs left by the triangular file. Coping saw blades are fairly soft, short, and in use aren't picky about perfect sharpening. They work much better after such treatment.