Update on the Lie-Nielsen tenon saw I bought

[Hilton Ralphs]

I don't know what happened to the previous thread but someone obviously got their panties in a knot.

Nevertheless, I contacted Lie-Nielsen today and sent Kirsten the photographs I had taken.

She promptly responded by stating that they made a change to the depth of that saw plate about a month ago. They found that by reducing the
depth by 3/4" the saw plate is much more stable.

So I now have to decide whether I can live with the shallower depth of cut. Will I miss the extra 3/4" or so? Would the longer but thinner blade be more suitable?

I see that the large Wenzloff tenon saw has only 3-3/4" depth of cut, is thicker and is 2" shorter whilst the Adria has a full 4" of useful but thicker blade but is only 14" long.

New to hand cut tenons so any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Chris Griggs]

Honestly. Unless you're making a bunch of workbenches or Arts and Crafts style dining tables with big thru tenons I don't think you'll miss the extra depth at all.

Disappointing that you didn't know about the change prior to purchase, but at the end of the day I doubt you'll care if you like the saw otherwise. Personally, I'd just keep it, but you gotta do what is right for you.

I'd venture to guess that LN got a few too many of those back kinked by first time sawyers and that is why they decreased the depth.

[Tony Wilkins]

Have you looked at Bad Axe. He can do about anything with his models

[David Weaver]

There are two things you can do to make a saw less aggressive when it has a deep plate like that, well, three.
1) change the tooth profile (not preferable)
2) shorten the plate (maybe not preferable)
3) adjust the hang of the handle so that the hang angle favors more of a push in the direction of the cut instead of diagonal to it
4) raise the workpiece

So, they chose 2 instead of 1 or 3. 4 isn't always possible.

You'll probably find the saw better for general use, but I would be unhappy if I ordered it and needed the extra depth of cut (you won't often, but that's not the point). I have a heavy saw with 4" under the spine (16" long) and a more english style handle (less hang angle) and it works fine. It is not suitable for cutting small tenons, but in larger ones (which is why I made it - it was made from parts from Mike W) it is excellent.

You're in a tough spot because of the shipping cost. Personally, I would expect some sort of concession for the saw not matching specifications. It's fine if they change the saw specs to make it easier to use for general use, but it's not fine when they leave the old specs on the web page and people find out about the news specs not as a courtesy call from customer service before the saw is shipped, but only due to having the saw in hand.

Can't tell you what to do, but if they did nothing for me, I would be very unhappy. Who pays the shipping if you send it back? Do you need the extra depth?

If you make a cut or two with it and really like it, then none of the above matters. In that case, you have a new saw.

[Shawn Pixley]

I have two tenon saws. One has a relatively shallow depth and sees a lot of work. The other is a Bad Axe with a deeper depth of plate and is filed "hybrid." I use it on heavier work. I think both have their place. Only you can say whether it works for you and your project.

[george wilson]

I'd think that a tenon saw with a real deep plate might not be as easy to control than a more reasonable plate depth.

[Sam Stephens]

again, depends on what you're sawing. for me, 2" depth is probably sufficient for most of the joinery I do in furniture -so I would be ok w/ the size, however I would be quite unhappy if it didn't meet spec as advertised -that's a completely different issue, imo

[Chris Hachet]

again, depends on what you're sawing. for me, 2" depth is probably sufficient for most of the joinery I do in furniture -so I would be ok w/ the size, however I would be quite unhappy if it didn't meet spec as advertised -that's a completely different issue, imoWhich is why I asked what you are cutting....

[Chris Hachet]

...and hope all of this goes well for you. Sitting here in Ohio watching this little drama play out...but like everyone else I would be upset if I didn't get what I was promised.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Gramercy 14" Sash saw is .20 thick x 3.29 at heal, 2.87 at toe, no kinky problems yet. The tenons on the Benchcrafted plans for their Split Top Roubo workbench legs are 1-2". For tenons too large for the Gramercy Sash Saw I might use an 18-22" panel saw 10-12 ppi, or my 18" 10 ppi halfback saw made from a Wenzloff kit, maybe my new 400mm Wood Joy (15.75") bowsaw if I felt over confident, even though I have a restored 16" x 3.75" Tenon Saw.

I wonder how others might approach a deep tenon? I like small panel saws and my halfback, certainly even a small bow saw could handle just about any tenon depth.

[Joe Bailey]

A few observations which might be useful to you. First, while Bad Axe enjoys an excellent reputation, Mr Harrell's saws are definitely a step or two up the price ladder from what you've got now. Secondly, the perennial question of whether or not Wenzloff is even still in business is a hot topic at a competing forum. Lastly, several times in the past year and a half I have tried to contact Adria saws by email and phone, but get absolutely no response. I was all set to buy a large tenon saw, but this pre-sale exercise made me quite certain I did not want to place an order after all.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Assuming you're talking about the 16" tenon saw? When I used it at a show, I found it a bit awkward because of the height (also the fairly aggressive rake) but a lot of that was most likely because I had gotten so used to using a totally different saw.

For all the work I've done, anything much more than a couple of inches, I'm reaching for a panel saw, although I reach for a panel saw a lot sooner than most folks probably would anyway.

[Keith Outten]

I don't know what happened to the previous thread but someone obviously got their panties in a knot.
Thanks.

In our Support Forum there is a FAQ thread that has a "Before You Rant (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?61168-Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-The-Creek)" instruction you should read.

You can also read about this policy in the Announcements Thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/announcement.php?f=7&a=16).
.

[Hilton Ralphs]

In our Support Forum there is a FAQ thread that has a "Before You Rant (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?61168-Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-The-Creek)" instruction you should read.

Thanks Keith, however I wasn't 'ranting' at all. All I asked was whether it was my expectation that was skewed or whether there was actually something wrong with the saw.

Anyway, I guess some people are way more sensitive for their own good.

Thanks for those who actually bothered to provide helpful feedback and support.

[Matthew Hills]

Seems like you've got two questions:
- New to handsawn tenons -- what is a good saw for those?
- want to make a bench in near term -- how to saw the tenons?

For most furniture-scale work, I don't see an advantage to a really deep saw.

For bench, you're probably thinking about the leg tenons going through the top? My bench has a 3" top, so the standard depth saws are okay. (may still have an issue with the thickness of the wood -- most tenon saws are designed for thinner cuts). And what is planned for stretchers? My bench legs are 4x5", but using pinned, not-through tenons... so that didn't need a 4" or 5" depth of cut.

But consider other options:
- standard handsaw (e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0p4IpCIks&list=PLD39949332C7FB168&index=7 )
- Japanese ryoba saws
- I recently saw a thread on another forum for an alternative tenon saw for sawing large tenons. The author cut down a Disston to make a compact, backless saw


Cutting tenons well is a

Matt

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Matt. From most or all of the comments, it would appear that I probably don't need 4inches of cutting depth. I happen to have a Ryoba saw like this one;

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So if the extra cutting depth is required I'll either use this or perhaps an old hand saw.

I choose to look on the bright side of this incident. If I had ordered the saw two months ago, I would have received the full size blade which may very well have given me problems which would have been costly to rectify.

Bottom line, I think I'm better off.

Thanks to all again.

[David Weaver]

There's no great reason to cut down a rip saw to cut tenons for timberframe sized joints (like on a big bench).

What a person could do, that is useful, is find one of the millions of 8 point crosscut saws out there for about $25, file it rip, keep it around for furniture scale fine ripping and use it for large tenons. It would take about one mexican made $5 HD file to do that filing job (and nothing is easier to file than medium-small rip teeth).

That would work well for large tenons and it wouldn't lose the usefulness for ripping hardwood cabinet sticking.

[Mike Brady]

I have been less than thrilled with my 16" thin kerf tenon saw because it could wander off line and was rough starting. I agree with the maker that making the saw not quite as deep is a good move since this saw has a rather flexible plate and once it goes off line there is no getting it back to straight. I improved mine greatly by slightly increasing the rake angle of the first 2" of teeth, taking one stroke across each of the rest of the teeth at the factory rake angle to reduce the set and even the tooth height, and lightly stoning the set to eliminate the off-line wandering. It now is a very pleasant saw to use.

[David Weaver]

I don't know what the development process was there, but it would seem that a standard disston #4 style handle was just jammed on a tall plate saw, and then a thin plate was put on it, which is a good show trick, but .020 is too thin for a tall plated aggressive saw. I bought two toothed plates from Mike W long ago when he was still handing out stamped finished and chamfered backs when you ordered parts (they are pimp, can't get anything like them now). The heavy saw has a .025" plate which is about as thin as you want to go for practical purposes on a 4" saw.

LN could've made an excellent large saw if they would've used a plate a little thicker and added a second handle style to their arsenal. The #4 handle looks out of place.

I noticed yesterday that the specs are still wrong on their website. If hilton has had a chance to actually order one and get it all the way to SA and have a back and forth with LN about it, why does the site still have the wrong specs on it?

I personally want a deep plate on the large backsaw because 16" is outsized for most of the things you'd do on furniture and cabinets (as in, it is going to be a special purpose saw as cutting 1" deep tenons on a 1 1/2" wide stick is going to be something you'd rather do with a smaller saw, not with a very thin 16" saw).

[Hilton Ralphs]

I personally want a deep plate on the large backsaw because 16" is outsized for most of the things you'd do on furniture and cabinets (as in, it is going to be a special purpose saw as cutting 1" deep tenons on a 1 1/2" wide stick is going to be something you'd rather do with a smaller saw, not with a very thin 16" saw).
So I basically bought the wrong saw then :(. That's the last time I listen to anything the Schwarz says ;).

Guess I'm buying a Veritas rip carcass saw tomorrow.

[David Weaver]

Trust your own hands and eyes, and thoughts. Of course, there are professional woodworkers you can rely on, too. I learned the same lesson of tall thin plate with high hang angle by making a deep plated dovetail saw. There's a reason you don't see such things anywhere. Fortunately, it only cost me a few hours of my time and $50.

That said, if you decide to keep the LN saw, you might find favor for it even if not for a regular use saw, and maybe you'll come to a conclusion that historically wasn't as common (that you want to use a big saw for everything).

The only problem with professional WWers is that few work by hand and few participate in forums when they do. The ones who do are usually selling something or are associated with someone selling something. All of that said, I'd be more inclined to take tool purchase advice from Paul Sellers than Chris Schwarz unless one of your objectives is to buy the tools just to do so.

What is available to you locally? Any vintage backsaws that could be refiled?

Anyway, if you decide to keep the LN saw, use it for a little while before you decide to buy anything else. That's what I'd do, at least.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks David. I'm going to keep it and see how it goes. I'm not stressed about it.

[Sam Stephens]

So I basically bought the wrong saw then :(. That's the last time I listen to anything the Schwarz says ;).

Guess I'm buying a Veritas rip carcass saw tomorrow.

i have the veritas carcass saw (x-cut) and like it quite a lot. it's a good size for most joinery that I do. but then again, i only have a couple of back saws so I just use what i have. i also lean towards the advice of Mr. Sellers vs. Schwarz in tool buying (and other things ww'ing).

[Mike Brady]

So I basically bought the wrong saw then :(. That's the last time I listen to anything the Schwarz says ;).

Guess I'm buying a Veritas rip carcass saw tomorrow.
I hate to express a vague opinion, but I noticed you opting for a Veritas saw, and my response to that is: Have you heard from anyone who owns that saw? The reason I say "vague" opinion is that while I don't own any Veritas saws, I have tried most of them at shows and woodworking classes. Their saws, while great values and virtually without peer in their price range, are not in a class with any of the other saw makes discussed here. My theory is that the lack of a metallic back or spine makes the saw feel rough and "notchy" in the cut. They even sound rough while cutting. I'm sure they result in a perfectly fine cut, but the feel of a steel or brass-backed saw just isn't there. If that matters to you, it might warrant a bit more investigating.

[Chris Hachet]

So I basically bought the wrong saw then :(. That's the last time I listen to anything the Schwarz says ;).

Guess I'm buying a Veritas rip carcass saw tomorrow.
I have the Veritas carcass crosscut saw. It is fantastic. FWW didn't like the rip version when they tested the two, let me know how you like the Veritas Rip Carcass saw. I may end up with one in the arsenal.

[Chris Hachet]

i have the veritas carcass saw (x-cut) and like it quite a lot. it's a good size for most joinery that I do. but then again, i only have a couple of back saws so I just use what i have. i also lean towards the advice of Mr. Sellers vs. Schwarz in tool buying (and other things ww'ing).Who is Mr sellers?

[David Weaver]

Paul Sellers, a guy who has been running woodworking classes here and in the UK for a while. It appears he was working professionally for a decade or so, maybe two.. before starting to teach courses.

There is also warren mickley, who to my knowledge does not do anything with power tools at all, and has been working professionally on commission for 25 years or more. Warren doesn't self promote, though, so you have to ask him questions rather than him necessarily offering advice.

[Jim Neeley]

Which LN tenon saw and, if the 16", is it really 4-1/8" or that minus 3/4"?

[Winton Applegate]

Well I am sure you realize this but you could always locate an older one, maybe, on ebay or some such and once that is secured send the questionable one back.
I bought two of 'em to make my work bench so I wanted the depth. Both of them came to me bowed on the spine and I had to straighten them (took a surprising amount of force and repeated attempts) and touched up the filing to get them to cut straight.

These days most tools I buy are just nearly completed blanks at best and I have to make something useful out of them so I don't expect a lot from the midline tool makers. Even Snap On has been crap for me in the last two small tools I purchased. One wasn't even stamped USA where my other one was. I returned it (poor metal, poor alignment, poor machining ) and the third one WAS stamped USA but was still crap. Better but no where near as great as my first one from ten years ago.
anyway . . .

[Eugenio Musto]

I have the Veritas carcass crosscut saw. It is fantastic. FWW didn't like the rip version when they tested the two, let me know how you like the Veritas Rip Carcass saw. I may end up with one in the arsenal.
I've got the rip carcass saw.It's a good tool,easy to start and makes clean cuts.In my opinion it's too short and light for big tenons,in this case i suggest to buy a large tenon saw like the Bad Saw or LN or wait when Veritas will make one.

[Chris Griggs]

Rob showed this picture on another forum a while back. I wonder when they are coming out....

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[Chris Hachet]

I've got the rip carcass saw.It's a good tool,easy to start and makes clean cuts.In my opinion it's too short and light for big tenons,in this case i suggest to buy a large tenon saw like the Bad Saw or LN or wait when Veritas will make one.
This was kind of my thinking also, as I really want to own a Bad Axe saw, and find myself needing something for larger tennons.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I still go by the if something's too big for my carcase saws, I reach for my 7pt rip panel - I think the big thing for me is that even the large tenon saws I see are still 11 points - once I'm dealing with something big enough to warrant a saw that large in a rip, I like something with larger teeth on it.

There's also the split-out the waste with a chisel method, too, which if the wood is agreeable can be really nice for larger pieces over sawing all day.

[Peter Pedisich]

I still go by the if something's too big for my carcase saws, I reach for my 7pt rip panel - I think the big thing for me is that even the large tenon saws I see are still 11 points - once I'm dealing with something big enough to warrant a saw that large in a rip, I like something with larger teeth on it.

There's also the split-out the waste with a chisel method, too, which if the wood is agreeable can be really nice for larger pieces over sawing all day. I like this approach, and since my paring skills exceed my sawing skills when going this deep, and as a hobbiest time is less of an issue, I like to split safely away from line and pare away... with some quiet music it very relaxing.

[Eugenio Musto]

I like this approach, and since my paring skills exceed my sawing skills when going this deep, and as a hobbiest time is less of an issue, I like to split safely away from line and pare away... with some quiet music it very relaxing.
I learned to split tenons thanks to a Paul Sellers' video,I agree It's v a little dangerous if the grain doesn't run straight but very very fast and funny!!

[Tony Shea]

I hate to be the odd man out but I bought the LN 16" thin plate tenon saw back when they were pretty new to their lineup. I reach for this saw over most of my other tenon saws even cutting short 1" long by 2" wide tenons. For me the saw is very easy to start and flies through stock compared to my standard thickness blades. It does take some practice to be sure you're sawing straight as there is very little room in the kerf to correct an off cut. Every time I use the saw I am surprised at how fast the saw cuts, the small change in plate thickness really does make a difference in my experience. And no I'm selling anything and have zero affiliation with LN. I am surprised at how many people are not happy with this saw. Maybe a .025" plate thickness would be a better all around size for most sawyers, but I am very happy with my .020" saw and wouldn't trade it for a thicker one. The large saw is actually very comfortable for me and offers decent control, easy to tell when you are lined up true to your line.

I guess we all like different specs in our tools which is the beauty of all the available options we have today at reasonable prices. I do think that LN really needs to update their website with the proper specs on the saws they are selling. Seems very odd they are putting out something very different than what they are listing. In all my experience with them I have been nothing but overly impressed with their customer support so I find this a bit off.

[Randy Karst]

I hate to be the odd man out but I bought the LN 16" thin plate tenon saw back when they were pretty new to their lineup. I reach for this saw over most of my other tenon saws even cutting short 1" long by 2" wide tenons. For me the saw is very easy to start and flies through stock compared to my standard thickness blades. It does take some practice to be sure you're sawing straight as there is very little room in the kerf to correct an off cut. Every time I use the saw I am surprised at how fast the saw cuts, the small change in plate thickness really does make a difference in my experience. And no I'm selling anything and have zero affiliation with LN. I am surprised at how many people are not happy with this saw. Maybe a .025" plate thickness would be a better all around size for most sawyers, but I am very happy with my .020" saw and wouldn't trade it for a thicker one. The large saw is actually very comfortable for me and offers decent control, easy to tell when you are lined up true to your line.

I guess we all like different specs in our tools which is the beauty of all the available options we have today at reasonable prices. I do think that LN really needs to update their website with the proper specs on the saws they are selling. Seems very odd they are putting out something very different than what they are listing. In all my experience with them I have been nothing but overly impressed with their customer support so I find this a bit off.

Tony,

Not so odd; after a small learning curve, I too have become quite fond of my LN 16" thin plate!

[Lloyd Robins]

I really like the tapered thin plate saws. I wasn't going to try them, but in talking with Lie-Nielsen they said that if there was a problem to send it back. Of course mine are the smaller sizes saws. I don't do a lot of large work.

[Chris Griggs]

Tony,

Not so odd; after a small learning curve, I too have become quite fond of my LN 16" thin plate!

Agreed! Not odd at all. I loved the saw the second I picked it up at an LN show. I want to continue to make my own saws from here on so I didn't buy it but it is a fantastic saw. Very light and well balanced for its size. Very fast and smooth cutting. That saw really spoke to me.

[Adam Cruea]

I've got both Veritas carcase saws. . .for their prices, I would label them an excellent buy. The only issue I had was the rip liked to pull to the left, but that was very easily fixed by stoning that side with either a 1000 or 4000 Norton water stone (I forget which).

I actually used it on my bench's stretcher through-tenons because the BadAxe saws I got had handles that were just a tiny bit too small (it was when Mark first put out sized handles, and my mitts were right at 4", which was the cut-off for regular. . .anyways, that's a different story that ended up absolutely swell). I don't know what the Sellers method was, but I needed 3.75" tenons (I ended up making 4" tenons. . .a great mistake for the look of the bench, to be honest), and I just cut down to the spine with the Veritas, tilted back and forward as far as I could without going outside of the shoulder line, then sawed the shoulders, stuck a chisel in the cheek's kerf, and get it a whack. Came out with 16 4"x1/2" hickory blocks, and the cheeks needed very little paring afterwards.

Now onto the 16" tenon saws I bought from Mark (BadAxe).

In a short description, they are in a class of their own. The tenon saws I got (a rip and x-cut) went through hickory like it was butter. $600 or $700 well spent, in fact, I have 2 more of his saws coming to me (hopefully on Tuesday). Anyways, the nice thing about Mark's 16" tenon saws are that they are, in fact, a jack saw. . .they can do almost anything you throw at them without being unwieldy. Need to saw through a 2 inch thick board that's 10" wide? The jack saw can do it, and leave a nice cut at that.

You might also try Ron Bontz's saws. . .I've heard they're great, and they are absolutely beautiful. There's nothing like functional eye candy. :-D

[Jim Matthews]

I find that when cutting anything deeper than 2" or so, I'm reaching for a panel saw.

Larger plates feel balanced on a backsaw, but in practice I can't really cut straight past 2 1/2" depth.
For me, it's like having a high-performance sports car that won't carry all my groceries...

[Adam Petersen]

I hadn't seen those development saws from Veritas but am very excited for them. I have the X-cut and a dovetail saw from them and love their saws. That being said, my go to rip tenon is an old Disston that cuts great after I sharpened it. That might change when and if those Veritas saws come out. I haven't had to cut super deep tenons though. Might be easier to cut the shoulders and then split out the tenon with chisels? I do think the LN saws are very pretty, too bad it didn't work out for you though.