Kist update - designing the base

[Derek Cohen]

When we left off last time, the lid had been largely completed. The breadboard here is unfinished. It is not yet attached and will be made narrower and shaped with a curve on the underside (more on that later).


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Update16_zps3381cf7e.jpg


I had a little time over the weekend to begin the base. This is the interesting part of the build as it will contain a drawer(s) built into the base, itself. Building it this way was to conceal the drawer(s), so as to create an uncluttered face.


Some of you will have a problem with the way I design and build. I rarely draw up any plans, and basically wing it with just a idea and a mental image. I do try and think it through, attempting to plan in as much as I can. However here I only had a rudimentary idea of the way in which I would build the drawer(s), and I had reached this point where it was time to make it work.


I was not sure whether I would build one large single drawer or split this into two drawers. The advantage of a single drawer was that there would be fewer breaks at the front, and it would be easier to make the drawer "disappear". The downside is that one wide drawer is likely to rack and the drawer bottom would have to be thick to avoid flexing, even with a munton.


I would like some input here. The drawer opening is 30" wide. The depth available is 20" (It is not planned to use the full depth since that would make it difficult to reach the rear of the drawer). Anyone build a 30" wide drawer that does not rack?


The other feature of the drawer that complicates is that it will be very shallow as it must fit within the base (the drawer is to house a magazine or a remote control, or something else that is slim - why build it when it is this shallow? I liked the challenge). There is a total depth of about 2" available. To maximise the internal drawer height the drawer bottom may be attached to the underside of the drawer sides (screwed/nailed in a rebate) and not in a side groove.


The drawer will not run along a runner, as the runner takes up depth. Instead it will have to hang from, and run along, side rails.


What I love about hand tools is that they allow one to change horses in mid gallop - when a base is dovetailed together, it is still possible to chop grooves/mortices for a runner.


Here is the Jarrah dovetailed base. The box will sit on top. The opening at the front is for the drawer. Actually, that is likely to be drawers as I am leaning towards building two smaller ones rather than one large one.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Base1_zps4f01fee4.jpg


With the box upside down, the base is attached ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Base3_zps27fdadb3.jpg


If you look carefully at the rear cornes you may make out the mortices I chopped for the rails. Below is a picture of one rail. Note that this is a dry fit as the rail will be narrower than it is here.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Base4_zps052d2981.jpg


And here was a photo of the kist plus base. in this guise it could take a single drawer hanging from the rails. Alternately, I could add a centre rail and hang two drawers. (The picture also includes the mouldings I made. These have not been attached).


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Base5_zps7782b05b.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Curt Putnam]

Looking good! If the question is one 30" vs two 14" drawers then I would ask what is to be stored in there?. If linens, then the larger drawer size would be useful. If unknown, I would vote for two smaller drawers.

[Winton Applegate]

Hi Derek,

I am thinking, to prevent racking, and it is up to you how to pull it off, some small rod like rollers on the rear corners of the drawer. Not weight bearing just to serve as bumpers on the end of the drawers. Could even be just rounded and polished plastic bumpers. Much easier to put on rollers with the drawer on runners but I totally understand why you want the rails.
The really wide (30 inch) shallow drawers that I know for sure that don't rack because I was around and used them every day were parts cabinet drawers in metal cabinets with ball bearing guides. Hey those are on side guide rails.
This sort of cabinet
http://www.amazon.com/Lyon-DD251680X10193-Multiple-Modular-Installed/dp/B004J4WI5S/ref=sr_1_21?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1372616543&sr=1-21&keywords=parts+cabinet
Does this mean I am going to be banished from this forum ?
Heck ! I thought so.

Hey if you are willing to go with, (spoken in a clandestine whisper) plywood shhh shhh then you could just glue the bottom into the rabet in the drawer(s) or go no rabet on the drawer sides and back . Maybe a couple of thin real wood spline/spines on the under side to add some antisag. Heck epoxy on some thin steel strap. OK I will stop now.
Roller drawer guides and plywood all in the same post. My name is mud now.
PS: did you mean when going two drawer you would go side by side or stacked ? I was thinking stacked but then I am not awake yet.

[Winton Applegate]

OK the coffee is starting to hit bottom. You meant side by side. You could do one drawer, not as wide but have the drawer front the full width so it would disappear. Not as elegant but tres James Bond.

[Tony Shea]

I have a smallish chest of drawers that I built years ago to house my tools under my old work bench. I have had to move it to my new location and it now resides on a table (kind of in the way) that I originally built for sharpening in my old basement shop. Now I am set up in a large bedroom with a completely different workbench (roubo style) and really did not like my storage under the bench so set in on that table, which was temporary but still hasn't moved.

Anyways, the cabinet has 4 drawers and each drawer is exactly 30" wide. I built the chest using drawer frames though so they slide on top of them, not on runners. I personally think 30" drawers would work perfectly fine as long as the bottom was substantial. But where you may run into trouble is the runners you plan. I have never used this design but am about to on a curved front desk I just recently started. But I am a long ways away from drawers. I would worry that such a wide drawer may bind up if you were to try and close the drawer from the side, opposed to the center. At least on a frame you are able to place spacers that require the drawer to follow the right path, and maybe this is true using runners as well. But experience with my drawers in the tool cabinet has led me to believe that the sagging issue is of no concern as long as you plan for the potential.

Having said that, I think I might actually like 2 drawers in your situation better. Could be a his and her drawer.

[Jim Matthews]

I won't presume to instruct someone with obvious mastery of his craft.

I would ask one question about this low drawer; could it be built with internal partitions
that would act as stabilizing members - as in a torsion box?

Clearly the drawer will be open from above, but if the partitions could be made of a sufficiently stout material
such as plywood (trimmed to your high standard, of course) then glued to the frame and bottom of the drawer
should that not at least resist the natural urge to twist?

At least this would be passive, and require no further adjustment.

I don't know what sort of seasonal humidity changes this would face, but a little felted wool
on the rails might act as a gasket, masking any racking or twist that might appear.

It's certainly an interesting problem.

(Full disclosure - I'm still at the point of getting things flat, straight and glued together.)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

Thanks for the ideas.


I am seriously considering plywood for the drawer bottom as it is stable and unlikely to move - so your suggestion is not so crazy! I would like to achieve the maximum height inside the drawer, and my thought is that I could glue and screw a board into a rebate that runs around the lower inside edge of the drawer. Can anyone come up with a reason why this is a bad idea, and/or come up with an alternate idea?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Tony Shea]

I think a rebate would be fine as long as you plan to use plywood or a frame and panel design of some sort as similar to a cabinet back. The frame and panel would also allow you to add a center rail (or stile depending on how look at it) for more strength. Plywood would be a much easier solution obviously. Her I am offering up suggestions to a guy that I've learned more techniques from than anyone else that I've studied.

[Jim Matthews]

It occurs to me that the lattice work I'm thinking of is essentially the same for making Shoji screens.

If the divider spans the width and depth of the shallow drawer, and is glued at all joints (including where it meets the frame and bottom of the drawer)
it should be very strong. Larger partitions will flex more, smaller ones less.

I would guess that if you put a "sled foot" under the drawer to take some of the load as it is opened, that there will be less bending in the middle.
That could be installed or removed without any impact on the drawer space.

If the floor in front of the drawer is carpeted, it would glide.

I'm imagining something that looks like a wooden shoe....