Building an entry door (2nd round of questions)

[mreza Salav]

I started a thread not long ago and asked several questions about building an entry door:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?203118-Building-an-entry-door-%28many-questions%29&highlight=

I have got closer to starting this and have a few more and since i thought they might get lost in the original thread started a new one.
Since that thread I've got a nice load of Honduras Mahogany in 8/4 and 4/4; most are 11-12' and most are 8-14" wide. My initial plan (before finding this Mahogany) was to make the doors 2 1/4" thick using stave core with floating panels inside/outside + a 1/2" foam sandwiched in between the panels. The Mahogany I've won't give me 2" thick solid and if I make solid rail/stiles at 1 3/4" thick it won't be enough thickness for the floating panels + foam (I think after the profiles for the two sides of rails/stiles it will be about 3/4" left for the panel groove). So the options I'm considering are:

1- Build the rails/stiles solid at 1 3/4" thick and use double floating panels with no foam in between, or make it one piece solid panel (I'll make them not wider than 13" each so as to minimize expansion/contraction issues). OR

2- Build the rails/stiles engineered at 2 1/4" thick and use triple layer panels (two floating panels + foam in between). For this I'd have to either
2-a) make the rails/stiles stave (rip multiple pieces, flip them 90 degree and glue them, and glue a veneer over) or
2-b) make a lamination of three 3/4" pieces.

Obviously 2nd options are more work (and 2a is more than 2b) but I'm not sure if it is worth the effort.
If it makes any difference the glass units I've sourced for the side lites are 1" thick.

So which of options above would you recommend or any other alternative you suggest?
I should add that here in Alberta we get extreme cold weather (so the difference of temp between indoor and outdoor could be quite significant).

thanks

[Andrew Hughes]

I would stick to your original plan at 2.25 thick.A thicker door will survive the half out side half inside elements better.I saw pics of the Honda mah you picked up. I am very envious.Great score!

[Jim Matthews]

The rip and flip will give you good looking structural components of great strength.

Is there a covering, glass door to the outside of your home?
You'll never get another chance to make something like this -

It's your opportunity to go all out, and be inventive.

[Peter Quinn]

First thing I'd keep in mind is that wood has virtually no R value, or very little per inch. So 1 3/4" thick, 2 1/4" thick, not really relevant from that stand point. The foam sandwich gives you a little better performance, and I mean a little, 1/2" foam has an r value maybe 3 initially. And relative to the total surface area of the structure the door is a relatively small part, the panels an even smaller percentage. My point is that chasing a certain thickness door to include foam sandwich panels doesn't buy much energy efficiency. If the door is a standard 3'0X6'8 opening, not much reason to go beyond 1 3/4" for structure. Craftsman doors were that thick because they were also typically 42" to 46" wide to allow passage of that bulky style furniture into the home. And very tall/wide doors perform better IME if they are the thicker size, less flexible, less prone to warp. There is nothing wrong with a 2 1/4" thick door, the moldings can be deeper giving a richer appearance, you can get that .03% efficiency gain, and they are always fun to install......ok not so much fun to install. Its a nice visual but not much more.

If you want to float two separate panels that is easy to accomplish with a 1/2" panel groove, or 3/4" if you choose, even in a 1 3/4" door. Two panels, 1/4" tongues, back to back, dab of silicone to let them move but keep seperated. The primary reason we see 2 1/4" doors is when they exceed 7' in height or 3'0 in width. I don't recall what size you settled on, but if its in the standard sized range I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a 1 3/4" door. If you really need or want better thermal performance, you could go with an insulated ladder frame that gets "skinned" with essentially two thinner doors, or a torsion box foam core (http://singcore.com), again skinned on both sides. I've never done either of these and don't have much advice beyond mentioning they they do exist for further consideration. Wood web has some info in their archives.

Relative to the construction details of the stiles, you already understand the labor for each method. Solid is the easiest by far. The shop I work in has made hundreds of exterior doors from solid lumber, virtually no failures, and none where the doors were covered, finished and protected properly. So I can recommend that method without reservation. I'm working on a stave core door in my own shop presently, it was a lot of work to fabricate the cores, but its pretty stable and strong stuff. I made the cores in January 2013 when I had a little opening in the schedule, let them sit in the shop, started the final milling yesterday, I found they were crowned on both faces along there whole length, but were still very straight. In my case its QSWO skins and edges, mahogany core finger jointed into staves from 12"-20" pieces. I have no explanation for the crown in the stiles and rails? I used PU adhesive for the skins, glued the staves up with titebond III, let them cure and acclimate a good 3 weeks before applying the skins. The crown was easy to fix, I had prepared the rough blanks at 1.840", they were jointed and planed to 1.790", so thats not a terrible crown but enough to cause problems when joining and shaping parts. This leaves me a little thickness for the wide belt to end at 1 3/4" final thickess. I'm on edge the whole time because I made just enough parts given the cost and labor involved, and should I lose a part, replacing it won't be easy as it it would with solid stock. So thas a drawback.

I have a door glued up into blanks that is a 3 ply lamination, that process was relatively simple compared to making the stave cores, and the parts have remained dead stable for several years, no crowning, no cup. I started that for a door going into my kitchen. The floor has been covered at least 3 times with plywood and linoleum, so the elevations are high, need to be stripped back to subfloor and replaced prior to door install. My wife and I haven't agreed on a floor for almost 5 years, so the door parts sit. I don't usually acclimate glue ups for 5 years.


So no conclusion really, all the methods you mention are tested and valid, sort of depends on your situation, the time available, and your comfort level with each method.

[John Piwaron]

I'm not all that sure I should say anything. 'Cause if it goes wrong, I can "bury the body" and no one will be the wiser.

Perhaps you can take something away from my current project. Here's the plan, for what it's worth:

I'm in the midst of doing what you and others are planning or doing. I'm building an entry door for my house. My current project and I'm hot on it. I did plenty to get to this point. upgraded some tools in light of the large size of the parts (o.k., that's my story and I'm sticking to it). I've had this goal for a very long time and it's about to come to fruition. Will it work as I hope it will? I don't know.

I'm going on the idea that I'm essentially copying my 72 year old door that's going to be replaced with this new one. I've measured it, drawn the door into CAD using those measurements to get an idea of what they did all those years ago to create it. It's likely made of Douglas Fir or something like that. It's been covered with latex paint on the exterior side and varnish inside. It's in a south facing wall. And am now replicating it. Not exactly very creative, but for a first time through door construction, this this method seems good to me. I'm in Milwaukee not far from Lake Michigan. The lake tends to moderate temperatures in the winter. And summer. The door stands behind a storm door. Usually the storm is closed up against rain and snow. It's sliding panel is open to let the breeze in on not rainy days. Even in winter. When the temperature outside is nice enough.

So, the door I'm making is solid cherry. 1.75" thick rails and stiles. Two floating panels 9" x 38" x 1.125" These are the panels I used my horizontal panel raiser on. Both sides to make a 0.5" thick tongue on the edges. These panels are not monolithic. I glued them up from 4 separate pieces with the rings in alternate directions. Yet the face grain looks good - no jarring transitions to make what I did obvious. Actually it's the same with the stiles. Glued up of two then milled to be what I need.

The method of assembling all that is what Norm did with his entry door on NYW. That is, floating tenons. Two at each end of the biggest rail at the bottom, 1 each at the ends of the other rails and one short stile that separates the panels. I will be gluing the rails and stiles together today. I'm going to use West System epoxy. The one thing that's going to vary from the original is that I'm also planning on using dowels to pin the tenons to the rails and stiles then cap them with some nice square plugs ala Greene and Greene. :) Unless someone can point out why I shouldn't do that. My present door is 72 years old, I'm planning/hoping that this door last 100 years.

I've chosen what looks like suitable hardware for the hinges. Big polished cast brass, the pin is capped at either end. The leaves rotate on that pin lubricated with damping grease. I'm also going to use the same spacing and approximate location as the current door's hinges in the faint hope that if something goes catastrophically wrong I can switch back to the old door.

I got a piece of glass for the door from a local glass shop named Les's. It's 1/2" thick. My hope is that if anyone ever tries breaking it to get the door open that they either won't be able to or will be very surprised. I didn't get it tempered. :) And I know why glass used in doors is usually tempered. But this isn't the usual 1/8" thick panel.

The last thing is that I'm going to put a fake grid over the window to give it a divided appearance. In the same way the grids I have on some of the house's windows do.

There will also be a new jamb, sill and exterior casing. Made of jatoba. The new interior casing is cherry.

Everything will be finished with CPES and gloss Epifanes clear varnish.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks for the replies.

I should have given the measurements: I have settled on a single door (from an initial plan of double door) but it will be 42" wide + side lites and 8' high;
there would possibly a transom; I'm not settled on this though as adding the transom makes the whole frame/jamb too big for my taste to handle/manage and I haven't been able to find a good size glass unit to fit this combination of 42" door + side lites.

[David Kumm]

Keep in mind that air infiltration is a bigger deal than the 1/2" foam between the panels. When I built one I made the panel tongue 1/2" and wrapped the edge in foam insulation before fitting it into the opening. You need enough clearance so the panel can still move but it seals up pretty well. While it seems like a door is an R1 hole in the wall, the entry door results in a lot less heat loss than a little skylight. If I had 10/4 wood i would consider the 2.25 but I don't think I would go to the effort of glueing up four pieces and resawing to three to accomplish it. If you go the transom route that is where all the heat will be lost anyway. You can have insulated glass made to your size fairly reasonably at any local glass place. Dave

[John Downey]

I've built a couple, the more recent has been less than successful, though that was mostly due to machine calibration problems.

One thing strikes me right off the bat. Extra thick doors require a different lockset than standard thickness. The screws need to be longer, as do the parts that connect the cylinders of a deadbolt. The one time I had this problem, Schlage was very helpful, sending me longer parts, but I think I got lucky! Also, with the added width, you will have to make your own sweeps, unless you have better luck finding 42" off the shelf stuff than I did.

I also wouldn't sweat the R-value. If the door is not in a sheltered location, your design efforts will be better spent working out the likely shrinkage and air infiltration problems. When I replace the current door in our house, I plan to design the panel to better shed water - tongue and groove can be a real problem in a driving rain (we get driving rain out here :D)

Given the location of that door, I can tell you that I plan to paint the outside when I make another. Could be the most incredible curly maple ever, and it would still get paint outside, varnish inside. Of course, the sun is the problem in this case, we get UV that sends dermatologists screaming into the night :D... Up in Canada, you may not have that problem quite so bad.

[Peter Quinn]

In light of the single large door I'd be inclined to lean towards the 2 1/4" door personally, and given you are using a good exterior species like SA mahogany, the triple laminate would be my preferred approach. I made the door I'm building now stave core because I wanted to try it, maybe bring the concept to work or do it for side jobs. I can tell you it added a ton of time making the staves versus any other method, and buying them was an expensive proposition too. My staves were finger jointed shorts, you could easily just glue up long strips, save a bit of time, then skin those. But probably not worth the hassle. My favorite method would be to get some heavy 10/4 and make the stiles from that, but then you would have to find another shop closing with a pile of mahogany, that could take years or even life times, better not to wait!

David mentioned what I understand to be a popular misconception, that glass units leak more heat than solid doors. In fact if double or triple low e insulated glass is used, and it is well glazed, the glass has a better R value than the rest of the door. The best insulated solid wood door is a frame with all glass. Much like the studs in your walls wood doors transfer the out door temperature inside quite effectively. If you compared a glass unit to solid in insulated steel or fiberglass doors than the glass looses, but it beats wood. But its marginal anyway, such a small percentage impact on a total structure. I'm doing what David mentioned, a continuous bead of foam in the panel groove. I got 1/4" foam backer rod, I set the panel tongue to equal the groove bottom minus 3/16", so the foam will be slightly under compression, so driving wind won't be coming through the panel groove. The tolerances are so tight, and the air has to take 3 90 degree corners to get in, I doubt it makes a huge difference, but least case it acts like space balls to keep the panel centered.

Remember to get your weather stripping and understand the gaps required for proper air seal before building the jamb. Most of the ones I've used specify the gaps they are meant to fill and how much compression they should be under, the tolerances are fairly tight for a proper seal. Not difficult to achieve, but precise. Here is one source, probably others in CA not available to me.

http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_weatherseals.html

ps...they sell the sweep material by the foot in up to 8' lengths, so sealing the bottom is easy to accomplish.

[David Kumm]

Peter, you are correct in that the R value of insulated glass is better than wood- at least in the center. What I was referring to was that heat moves to the ceiling and generally takes the path out so the transom above the door and just under the ceiling will transfer heat to cold and likely be a source of condensation adding to the loss. The edge of the glass where the aluminum bonds the two is the worst culprit in creating the frost. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Since air infiltration has been mentioned along with weatherstripping ....The local hardware stores sell lots of that rolled up copper looking stuff ,it is always puckered and leaves lots of space for air . Some are under the impression that when the door closes the material flattens. I've tested it on boards,easy to see what's going on without the door frame rabbet. Easily 30 percent light and space along entire length. I prefer the real commercial spring bronze stuff. I like a dark stain on door edges and shellac ,regardless of interior and exterior finishes. Door closes easily and the bronze doesn't get paint all over it. Air seal is good.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks again. The source of the glass unit (for lites) is Masonite. I'm not set on having a transom yet since the it complicates the frame/jamb for me.
The foyer has high ceiling and there is a big window further up from the door, so transom is more for the look of it than getting lights.
Here in Alberta you don't need strong wind to get the cold air in; when it is -30 degree outside the tiniest amount of hole will freeze up from inside. So I really have to leave no air leak anywhere.

Peter, which of the seals in the list http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_weatherseals_components.html do you use for sealing the panels before glue up? WS03/04? And which one for the bottom of the door? I guess the bottom seal is a whole package that I have to decide on.
My thinking so far has been to have the door in a rabbet with weatherstripping seal all around and one of these on the outside:
https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=WWG5MUL9
plus an edge like the following for the section of the frame in front of the door: https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AGIPortalWeb/WebSource/ProductDisplay/globalProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=WWG5MUU6

Any recommendation on what method and which product?

[Peter Quinn]

We use WS 25 for the door sweep and WS 39 for the jamb seals, we have added a flipper seal additionally in some very windy areas. We don't air seal the panels, it rarely gets below 0 degrees here in Southern New England, I guess things behave differently at -30 for sure! Perhaps a bulb gasket would work, but I'm inclined to think a continuous foam bead may do better, I just got a roll of 1/4" foam from CR Laurence. The corners will be the hardest part, getting it to stay in place and play nice during glue up will be the next joy. I'm also thinking some kind of adhesive backed closed cell foam gasket might work better wrapped around the entire edge of the panel, something flat.

David, thanks for the clarification, I now under stand your point and agree. Most of our heat leaves from up, not out through the door. Triple glazed puts a few more layers of separation between those aluminum spacers and the interior, nice and quiet , especially if the center layer is laminated glass!

[David Kumm]

I don't know much about Euro door and window systems but wish I did. Joe Calhoon and others make them using special tooling. The Euros seem way ahead of us in dealing with weatherstripping and sealing. Might be worth some research to get some iodeas. Dave

[Mike Goetzke]

I would really suggest you find Joe Grout (@ WN). I built my first entry door a few years back and I don't know how I would have done it without him. I was skeptical but trusted him and made the stiles out of a lamination of hardwood veneer with a LVL core (laminated veneer lumber). Door has been up in the Chicago area for three now. If I remember I will get you a link where I sort of documented the build at woodworkerszone.


Mike

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Peter.

Mike, that's a great looking door you made and I loved the pictures. Will have to go through them more carefully to understand all the steps.
I see you have used 1/2" dowels. I'm making a series of interior doors and after cutting the mortises in 2 doors (for floating tenons) I've decided that I'll use 1/2" dowels from now on.
It takes me forever to cut the 2.5" deep 5/8" thick and 3"-4" wide mortises using my router jig. I suppose a series of 6-8 1/2" dowels has plenty of strength.
How did you attach the door edge (bottom) to the frame? Is it over a wooden part?

[Peter Quinn]

I don't know much about Euro door and window systems but wish I did. Joe Calhoon and others make them using special tooling. The Euros seem way ahead of us in dealing with weatherstripping and sealing. Might be worth some research to get some iodeas. Dave

I'd suggest he get a copy of the garniga catalogue or study it online as a starter. Our relatively low fuel prices and relatively low tax structure have caused North Americans and particularly those of us in the USA to be way behind on sealing every aspect of the building envelope. Canada is surely ahead of us given the climate and heating load at those temperatures. Friends have some euro style windows that came from a Canadian firm, miles ahead of most that are available here. The garniga tooling catalogue has great line drawings of how the tooling profiles to achieve the gaskets, usually double or triple redundant. Buying garniga on a single entry is crazy, but you could simulate that sort of thing with a few more basic shaper cutters and router bits, just not in a single pass. Perhaps the Alpine Mountain workshop would be a great primer if it fit into the schedule? I think Rangate might be another good source for Euro gaskets, or Functional Fenestration might have gaskets suitable for both doors and windows.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Peter.

Mike, that's a great looking door you made and I loved the pictures. Will have to go through them more carefully to understand all the steps.
I see you have used 1/2" dowels. I'm making a series of interior doors and after cutting the mortises in 2 doors (for floating tenons) I've decided that I'll use 1/2" dowels from now on.
It takes me forever to cut the 2.5" deep 5/8" thick and 3"-4" wide mortises using my router jig. I suppose a series of 6-8 1/2" dowels has plenty of strength.
How did you attach the door edge (bottom) to the frame? Is it over a wooden part?

Slot mortiser? Takes me just under two minutes per slot to punch 3 1/2" deep X 1/2" thick mortises on an entry level slot mortiser. Door makers best friend. Does a very fine job with dowels using the built in dowel bar, for accurate spacing, quicker than laying out every hole. I would't buy one just for one door...but for a house full of doors+entry way+furniture projects, starts to make sense. Or the new domino XL might get it done too, similarly priced to many entry level slot mortisers.

[David Kumm]

Peter, I think Joe has a bunch of used Garninga cutters for sale. I'm hoping to find the time to get to his workshop after I retire.

Mreza, 8-1/2" dowels will have about the same glue surface as 1-3" tenon. Actually it is one of the holes that lack the surface. Whether a door needs them or not, there is a significant difference in strength between the two. Dave

[Mike Goetzke]

Thanks Peter.

Mike, that's a great looking door you made and I loved the pictures. Will have to go through them more carefully to understand all the steps.
I see you have used 1/2" dowels. I'm making a series of interior doors and after cutting the mortises in 2 doors (for floating tenons) I've decided that I'll use 1/2" dowels from now on.
It takes me forever to cut the 2.5" deep 5/8" thick and 3"-4" wide mortises using my router jig. I suppose a series of 6-8 1/2" dowels has plenty of strength.
How did you attach the door edge (bottom) to the frame? Is it over a wooden part?

Door edge bottom - think you mean threshold. I bought an adjustable one (special order at Menard's):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Entrance%20Door/IMG_0098-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Entrance%20Door/IMG_0098-1.jpg.html)


...this gets screwed onto the bottom of the door posts, but, the trick is to transfer and cut the profile onto the bottom of the posts. I made a template:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Frame/IMG_0285.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Frame/IMG_0285.jpg.html)



...then cut:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Frame/IMG_0286.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Frame/IMG_0286.jpg.html)


Before you make your door look at this sketch. It ranks as one of the scariest cuts I have ever made (at least the first one - the second one was better):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Entrance%20Door/framepost.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Entrance%20Door/framepost.jpg.html)



...frame almost finished looks like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Frame/IMG_0287.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Frame/IMG_0287.jpg.html)



...oh and built one of these to hold the door up (it flexes in the middle to grab the door):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Assembly/IMG_0295.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Entrance%20Door/Assembly/IMG_0295.jpg.html)


Mike

[mreza Salav]

Slot mortiser? Takes me just under two minutes per slot to punch 3 1/2" deep X 1/2" thick mortises on an entry level slot mortiser. Door makers best friend. Does a very fine job with dowels using the built in dowel bar, for accurate spacing, quicker than laying out every hole. I would't buy one just for one door...but for a house full of doors+entry way+furniture projects, starts to make sense. Or the new domino XL might get it done too, similarly priced to many entry level slot mortisers.

I have checked at a couple of dealers to find a slot mortiser for my J/P. Problem was it's a 2001 machine and SCM is not building that unit anymore. I have found out that a couple of other models have a unit that will fit mine. I think I'm about to drop that money and get one.

[mreza Salav]

Peter, I think Joe has a bunch of used Garninga cutters for sale. I'm hoping to find the time to get to his workshop after I retire.

Mreza, 8-1/2" dowels will have about the same glue surface as 1-3" tenon. Actually it is one of the holes that lack the surface. Whether a door needs them or not, there is a significant difference in strength between the two. Dave

You are right David, if for a dowel count about 1/2 of its perimeter (for good glue surface) then 8 dowels will have about 6.25 inch (times depth of it) surface which is about the same as a 3" tenon. Not turning this into a debate about dowels vs tenons I agree tenons are stronger. I think they are not critically stronger for the interior doors that I'm making where the plywood panel is also glued in the grooves. For the entry door I'll use real tenons (not dowels).

[mreza Salav]

Mike, can you explain the shape of the frame? is the small groove for weather seal material? What about the two rabbets?

[Peter Quinn]

We cut the door rabbit in the jamb just like Mike's at work. I built a 'box' fixture that is basically a piece if 8/4 on each side of the fence joined with screws dados and blocks at each end and a few blocks in the middle that sit on top of the saws fence. One side is 6", the other 8", its very tightly fitted to the saws fence and quite heavy. It's essentially a sleeve that slides over the stock fence so you can work with tall stock with he blade full up, your hands safely out of the way. Most of the weather seal grooves require a 2MM or 3MM slot, for the L shaped urethane door gaskets its 3mm, we use a thin kerf rip blade for a nearly perfect fit, usually a a slight angle back, maybe 3 degrees. If running those grooves in proves too scary, conservation technologies sells top bearing slot cutters for routers in 2mm and 3 mm, these work great as well, with a trim router on a pivot base you can easily drop the grooves in just where needed on almost any door or window.

[Mel Fulks]

Before door units caught on ,we used to stock some KD jambs .We would run 1/2 kerf on table saw then cut the rabbet on jointer with one pass. Out feed table would sometimes be dropped a couple of thousandths to make sure there would be no "climbing". Material would not be trimmed until that operation was completed so the possible small snipe would be removed. Few if any new jointers will remove 1/2 inch in one pass.

[Peter Quinn]

Before door units caught on ,we used to stock some KD jambs .We would run 1/2 kerf on table saw then cut the rabbet on jointer with one pass. Out feed table would sometimes be dropped a couple of thousandths to make sure there would be no "climbing". Material would not be trimmed until that operation was completed so the possible small snipe would be removed. Few if any new jointers will remove 1/2 inch in one pass.

I picked up a Lueco rabbit head a few years back just for the purpose, something metric near 8" diameter, takes out the jamb rabbit in one pass, two if I'm feeling sheepish. Comes out way nicer than ripping on a TS, but I certainly would not have paid full price for the privilege much as I hate sanding. My jointer had a rabbit ledge, but there is always the risk of tapering the rabbit in as many passes as would be required. I'd like to have a jointer that could remove 1/2" single pass and not shred the stock.

[mreza Salav]

I am guessing one of the two side-by-side rabbets (as in the drawing for "post cuts") is for the door (with kerf for weather seal) and the next one is for a side-lite-unit, right?
Your pieces seem to have a 3rd rabbet on the outside, what is that for?

One more question: found a local supplier of threshold/weatherstripping/door sweeps/etc. Here is a 7.5" wide threshold.
I'm thinking for a 2x6 wall with 0.5" drywall (inside) this is the right width to go?
265652

[Peter Quinn]

I haven't used that type of threshold, we make them from wood, typically mahogany, white oak or teak. I'd think that type goes flush or close to it on the outside, same to the inside. So I'm adding 1/2" drywall +5 1/2" framing+ 1/2" sheathing, figuring a 6 1/2" jamb width, so the threshold would be similar. The door I'm building presently has 5/8" sheet rock+5 1/2" framing + 1/2" sheathing+ 10mm rain screen, so 7" jamb width plus threshold nosing. My casing will die on ears built into the threshold which travel past the jamb edge the width of the casing. In your case with that type of threshold casing and mullions would have to land on the porch floor, or an applied nosing, or on nothing depending on your preference and field conditions. Not sure where the extra 1" would end up out of 7 1/2"? I'd make a quick story stick or drawing to make sure that works so your doors bottom seal lands on the flat of the threshold and the leading edge lands around the front of your jamb. Perhaps it's wide so you can rip the wooden inside edge to exact width required?

[Mike Goetzke]

Your pieces seem to have a 3rd rabbet on the outside, what is that for?



Well it's a feature my wife wanted that hides the nice wood door (space for a screen door).

Mike

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Mike.

Peter, I figured 6.5" for wall (2x6+OSB+drywall), so the jamb is 6.5". Ten the exterior is going to get brick/stone work so that adds another 1". If I apply a 1" brick moulding around the jamb that should bring it to a total of 7.5". I could make my own threshold but I'm not sure about longevity of the wood threshold if it's walked over all the time? maybe I should cover that section of the door opening with aluminum cover.

I'm finding it more difficult to source sweeps (or door bottom)/hardward for thicker than 1.75" doors. Every supplier I talk to thinks I'm nuts to build a thicker than "standard" door and asks why. I might have to rely on online suppliers to get those parts then or simply build it at 1.75"...

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks Mike.

Peter, I figured 6.5" for wall (2x6+OSB+drywall), so the jamb is 6.5". Ten the exterior is going to get brick/stone work so that adds another 1". If I apply a 1" brick moulding around the jamb that should bring it to a total of 7.5". I could make my own threshold but I'm not sure about longevity of the wood threshold if it's walked over all the time? maybe I should cover that section of the door opening with aluminum cover.

I'm finding it more difficult to source sweeps (or door bottom)/hardward for thicker than 1.75" doors. Every supplier I talk to thinks I'm nuts to build a thicker than "standard" door and asks why. I might have to rely on online suppliers to get those parts then or simply build it at 1.75"...


As a general rule when ordering any doors and windows commercially you would order a 4 9/16" jamb for 2x4 walls and 6 9/16" for 2x6 walls. There is a little accommodation in there for slight gaps between sheathing/drywall and framing as well as vapor barriers/insulation/house wraps, caulking, and so on. If you stack up a vapor barrier, a bead of caulk, and house wrap alone, your well in excess of an additional 1/16".

For me personally I would not hesitate to make the jambs 6 5/8". I have virtually never had an x-9/16" jamb sit proud of the drywall face but I cant count the times (almost always) that they are shy of the face. If your exterior sheathing swells slightly, poor framing of the door opening, a but joint in the drywall in the opening (almost a given with horizontal drywall), you can always use an extra 1/16th. And its much easier to block plane the jamb or trim edge a touch as opposed to being short and your screwed.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Mike.

Peter, I figured 6.5" for wall (2x6+OSB+drywall), so the jamb is 6.5". Ten the exterior is going to get brick/stone work so that adds another 1". If I apply a 1" brick moulding around the jamb that should bring it to a total of 7.5". I could make my own threshold but I'm not sure about longevity of the wood threshold if it's walked over all the time? maybe I should cover that section of the door opening with aluminum cover.

I'm finding it more difficult to source sweeps (or door bottom)/hardward for thicker than 1.75" doors. Every supplier I talk to thinks I'm nuts to build a thicker than "standard" door and asks why. I might have to rely on online suppliers to get those parts then or simply build it at 1.75"...

This makes sense to me if the brick mold is installed flush with the jamb, essentially acting as a jamb extension? If I'm mentally picturing this correctly the raw ends of the aluminum threshold want to be fully covered, if the brick mold behaves like casing and has some sort of reveal then there is a gap at the front edges. We've done jambs where the leading edge is beaded, or both edges are beaded, and jack mitered, so you can butt casing or brick mold into these. It's a beautiful but fussy/tricky detail. Perhaps I'm not picturing the threshold/jamb/brick mold transition correctly? I know I've seen plenty of archetects and contractors screw up that particular transition and have to develope a fix later, so it's something I pay close attention to.

On the durability of wood, we use teak for coastal salt water marine environments, or for rich people whose archetects like spending more of their money than is neccessary, quarter sawn white oak almost everywhere not coastal, mahogany when specified, too soft for my tastes as an active enterance. The sill on the main enterance to my house is over 100 years old, it's quartered white oak, I've removed it, stripped it and reinstalled once. The paint can get tired but the oak doesn't go down easy. I like the idea of a real wood sub threshold to give the casing/ brick mold a place to land, perhaps an aluminum or bronze cover plate with adjustable strip for the sweep.

if you look closely at the system from conservation technologies, the sweep height is adjustable and the threshold elevation remains fixed. It requires a dado into the bottom of the door. This system works for any door width or thickness.
You may also want to google "interlocking bronze threshold", its another system that can be bought by the foot and cut to any length, much tougher than almost anything, tricky to install, can go over a wooden sub sill to take food traffic. Good for any door thickness as it doesn't wrap around the door bottom.

[Peter Quinn]

A potential source for other types of sills if you have a vendor in your area.

http://www.pemko.com/assets/literature/documents/PemkoResidential.pdf

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Peter. I can't call conservation technology (their 800 No. doesn't work from here) and they haven't responded to my e-mail.

One question: In the threshold I pictured above the oak strip is 1.75" wide. I suppose I can take it out (it's on with screws) and put a wider one, like 2" or 2.25" and that should work with a wider door. I've also found these L shaped shoes that I think can fit on any door
http://www.tmhardware.com/Door-Shoe-Sweep-L-Shaped-Aluminum-Casing-with-Rain-Drip-Design-and-.25-Fingered-PemkoPrene-or-Vinyl-Seal.html
(though shipping it to Canada is more than itself).

[Rick Fisher]

Hey Mreza ..

I am in the building supply business in BC .. Vancouver Island.. We have a door shop .. An interesting thing about the door business in Northern Alberta through to Winter-peg.. When Fiberglass doors first came out, they sold them here on the coast, when they started selling them in your area, they started to get massive claims.

The doors would be 72 degrees on one side, and -40 on the other side, causing the door to curve so bad it would crack and break itself. Quite a mess for the big door companies..

So now ... Fiberglass doors .. and other fab doors are steel reinforced for your part of the planet..

[mreza Salav]

Interesting point Rick, thanks. I guess fiberglass doors vary (I've seen some from $3k to $25k). I am trying to take all the cautionary steps with the hope that the door I build lasts here. I have seen a few wooden doors in friends houses and they have withstood so far. The building I work at is built in 1908 and the doors are original wooden doors (I think Oak). Some are at ground level and not protected from weather. They get varnished every year or two and have stood better than the stone steps in front of them.

[mreza Salav]

As a general rule when ordering any doors and windows commercially you would order a 4 9/16" jamb for 2x4 walls and 6 9/16" for 2x6 walls. There is a little accommodation in there for slight gaps between sheathing/drywall and framing as well as vapor barriers/insulation/house wraps, caulking, and so on. If you stack up a vapor barrier, a bead of caulk, and house wrap alone, your well in excess of an additional 1/16".

For me personally I would not hesitate to make the jambs 6 5/8". I have virtually never had an x-9/16" jamb sit proud of the drywall face but I cant count the times (almost always) that they are shy of the face. If your exterior sheathing swells slightly, poor framing of the door opening, a but joint in the drywall in the opening (almost a given with horizontal drywall), you can always use an extra 1/16th. And its much easier to block plane the jamb or trim edge a touch as opposed to being short and your screwed.

Thanks for the tip, will keep this in mind in the design/build.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Peter. I can't call conservation technology (their 800 No. doesn't work from here) and they haven't responded to my e-mail.

One question: In the threshold I pictured above the oak strip is 1.75" wide. I suppose I can take it out (it's on with screws) and put a wider one, like 2" or 2.25" and that should work with a wider door. I've also found these L shaped shoes that I think can fit on any door
http://www.tmhardware.com/Door-Shoe-Sweep-L-Shaped-Aluminum-Casing-with-Rain-Drip-Design-and-.25-Fingered-PemkoPrene-or-Vinyl-Seal.html
(though shipping it to Canada is more than itself).


Looks like that would work. Conservation technologies claims on their site that they sell and ship to any location in North America, the 800 number is US only, they listed a number for international orders as "
Local and International: 410-366-1146".

[mreza Salav]

Trying to find 5"x5" hinges for the door in a dark color (oil rubbed bronze or similar). The only ones I can find in that size are in solid brass with this dark finish (Emtek, Baldwin, etc) but thinking is brass is not as strong as steel or am I wrong? Will 4 hinges (5x5) in solid brass work? Emtek doesn't know the rating of these hinges (I talked to their tech. department ...). I figure my door will be close to 230lb.
Any directions for that?

[Peter Quinn]

Trying to find 5"x5" hinges for the door in a dark color (oil rubbed bronze or similar). The only ones I can find in that size are in solid brass with this dark finish (Emtek, Baldwin, etc) but thinking is brass is not as strong as steel or am I wrong? Will 4 hinges (5x5) in solid brass work? Emtek doesn't know the rating of these hinges (I talked to their tech. department ...). I figure my door will be close to 230lb.
Any directions for that?


Four hinges should be fine, solid brass is more than strong enough. Bronze is even stronger if you can source those, and generally self lubricating, I've only seen those in monster sizes. I would avoid plated steel in general, but certainly for exterior doors, not so much chance of hinges getting wet on inswing doors, but they always seem to rust just form a little humidity. The pins are usually steel anyway. Baldwin and Emtek are good brands, stanley actually makes very nice hinges too that are very reasonable compared to the "designer" brands. In any case you want to source ball bearing hinges at that weight so they don't wear out quickly. If you wanted the strength of steel I'd look at stainless, but really only necessary for huge doors or marine environments, or possibly some commercial code situations? Short answer brass is the industry standard for top quality hinges.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Peter. Yes, they are ball bearing and the best price I found on Emtek is actually a local supplier at $35/pair, which is not bad. So if solid brass is pretty standard for this size of door/hinge I should be Ok.
Found the handleset the same place. It's getting closer to having all the parts...

[bobby milam]

Funny thread....I was just talking about the same thing with my wife last night and boom here is a thread. I want to make a solid entry door so I can put it on the cnc router and put a nice carving in it. I'll be watching this thread for pointers

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Peter. Yes, they are ball bearing and the best price I found on Emtek is actually a local supplier at $35/pair, which is not bad. So if solid brass is pretty standard for this size of door/hinge I should be Ok.
Found the handleset the same place. It's getting closer to having all the parts...

I think Emtek is part of Assa Abloy, which is a pretty international hardware firm, good products, great variety of hardware solutions, top quality. Hard to go wrong there. I think the pins are actually stainless on the emtek hinges, nice touch for added durability.