Stair project - installing hard wood treads

[sal sparacino]

Hello. I just found this site and am hoping to get some advice for my new project. I live in Northern Virginia and am replacing carpeted stairs with pre finished Brazilian cherry treads and risers. The current treads are concave. So, I decided to remove the 2x treads completely.

1) The new treads (1 1/16" thick); I am planning to add 1/2" plywood to the stringers with glue and screws and then gluing the new tread to the plywood with finish nails in the corners. Is this a good approach?

2) Also, the treads are finished on both sides. Can I glue the finished treads as they are or should I sand away the finish first?
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Looking forward to any advice! Thanks, Sal

[Paul Saffold]

Welcome to the Creek, Sal. I don't have any advice, but will soon be starting the same project but with oak, so hopefully someone will offer advice. Have you tried the search box in the upper right? There have been similar threads before.
Where did you get your treads?
Paul

[sal sparacino]

Thanks for the reply Paul. We purchased our materials from Lynn Wholesale Flooring, Beltsville, MD. Hopefully we will hear some advice. I did not mention this in my previous post, but as part of the stair project I am replacing the newel posts, balusters and railing as well as installing prefinished hard wood flooring on the second floor.

Good luck with your project!

Sal

[Sam Murdoch]

Here is a good link on the subject http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?132005-new-hardwood-stairs-over-pre-fab-staircase-Nail-Glue-Both

I'm not sure about the question of using adhesive on the underside of a finished tread. I'd be inclined to scuff the backs with some 80 grit but I would also do a test piece. Squeeze out some PL adhesive and put 1/2" ply to a piece of tread cutoff. You'll know the next day if the adhesive will hold. Also good to read the info on the tube.

The question of whether or not to use nails and adhesive - just adhesive - or just nails is discussed in the link. It was mentioned that if you expect traffic on the stairs before the adhesive really has a chance to dry than nails are essential. Be aware in that case that Brazilian Cherry does not like nails. You will need to drill for every nail and driving in the head (even of a finished nails) is likely to cause at least a few splits. Ideally drill just through the finished material and allow the nail to grab the ply and stringers under. I have been comfortable using the PL adhesive without nails on similar projects, but I always had control of the traffic on the steps.

Using a guide for cutting the steps and risers in between the skirt boards is an excellent investment. Don't hesitate to buy one of the ones mentioned in the link or at the least make your own. I use one of these http://www.collinstool.com/base.php?page=collins_tread_gauge_ends.htm Combined with a Festool TS55 and a short guide rail you will get a good tight fit with relatively little effort or frustration.

You don't say if you will machine joints into the underside of the tread nose and the face of the stringer so that these all lock together with glue (not the PL adhesive) and hide the joints but that is also well worth the effort if you have enough width in your stock - http://www.g-w.com/pdf/sampchap/9781590706480_ch18.pdf See figure 18/17 on page 607 of this link.

Good luck. And welcome to the Creek.

[Sam Murdoch]

Obviously this thread is posted in the wrong forum. I just noticed. Can this be moved to help out the OP? Thanks.

[sal sparacino]

Hi Sam and thank you for the great advice and reference links. I will definitely source the tread guide and go with the PL adhesive. I had not considered routing a joint on the underside of the tread but will do so. I have enough height on the riser to accommodate this.

Based on your comments about nailing the Brazilian cherry, I will likely pass on this. However, one followup question, will a finish nail gun cause splintering as well?

I am installing box newels and have to install two on the balcony. I am planning to use LJ Smith LJ-4392. This is supplied with a mounting block that is screwed to the floor. Sorry about starting the thread in the wrong place. Hopefully this can get corrected.

Thanks again for the advice!

Sal

[Sam Murdoch]

So you are experiencing some newbie problems posting on the Creek. No matter - the conversation can continue. You just might have had more feedback on the general or woodworking projects forums.

Anyway as regards to nail guns - the issue will not be splitting as much as the likelihood of the nails being redirected by some tough grain and then the next thing you know a nail is curling out of the woodwork in a very unexpected and destructive matter. You need to have the pressure well regulated - no driving nails at the end of the pressure cycle.

I have not used the LJ Smith system but I understand that they have a pretty good product support so if you have questions they should be able to give you the best advice.

You might consider using GRK finish screws rather than nails http://www.buygrkfasteners.com/grk-fasteners/fin-trim-head-screws.html These are pricey but well worth the money. You should be able to find them at the big box stores or at a local lumber yard as well as on line. Just be sure to clamp your work as you drive the screws. Never depend on the screws to pull the work together (a typical DIY mistake). There are some exceptions to this rule but one needs to understand the rules and the reasoning before breaking the rules. If you decide to use the trim screws, you will need to prebore for these in such hard wood - and take the time to make a bigger hole for the head. Just do some test drilling. One drill bit for the main body and then another size or two up for the head. With this second hole go only as deep as you need to get the head below the surface without splitting. Tedious work but for good results. Ask me how I know :rolleyes:.

Also, use regular Titebond II wood glue or the like for all the joinery and save the PL for applying the treads and risers to their substrates.

[sal sparacino]

Well, I am glad that you found this thread Sam! Thanks for the advice on the screws. Sounds like you have done this a time or two! Using screws, I assume that I will need to use plugs to hide the heads correct? I am about one month away from the real work (waiting on my stair parts) so I will be sure to post pictures as I move along.

Sal

[Sam Murdoch]

With the trim head screws you could just get away with a wax stick fill over the hole. The right color of wax stick and it all disappears. There is a product called COLOR PUTTY (don't know the maker) that is an oil based soft putty. I use it with great success. Fill the hole than scrape it flush with a formica chip. Needs to be applied to a sealed wood grain (to keep the product from bleeding away from the hole) but once it is dry you can coat over it with your finish. I don't know if it can be covered with a water based finish but I know it works very well under oil or varnish. Of course you can use regular screws and then you must use plugs (bungs). That is certainly acceptable and not much more work.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Sam - you da man when it comes to stairs!

Any tips on putting oak treads over 27 year old cast concrete steps?

[Sam Murdoch]

Hi Rich, sorry but that is uncharted territory for me. You'll have to check the internets :confused:.



Good - I see that this post has been moved to the right forum! Maybe others will jump in to help Sal and Rich.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Sam,
Thanks for the reply.
I'll start another thread about my project and the concrete when the time comes so it doesn't take Sal's thread too far off course.

But - since this is on the topic, you mentioned using the TS55 for cutting the treads.
I have a TS 55 EQ and a 42" track. Should I use that instead of a TS and sled?
To sort of answer my own question - I have more faith in the TS55EQ than I do my TS and shop made sled.

[Sam Murdoch]

Sam,
Thanks for the reply.
I'll start another thread about my project and the concrete when the time comes so it doesn't take Sal's thread too far off course.

But - since this is on the topic, you mentioned using the TS55 for cutting the treads.
I have a TS 55 EQ and a 42" track. Should I use that instead of a TS and sled?
To sort of answer my own question - I have more faith in the TS55EQ than I do my TS and shop made sled.

I meant the Festool TS 55, not a table saw. The Festool combined with the Collins stair tread template jig (or the like) is a very accurate and efficient combo. So yes, do use your TS 55 EQ - might be worthy buying a shorter guide rail though.

[Richard Wolf]

If you can get under your staircase you would have a large advantage. You can screw the treads and riser together with pocket screws which works well. Even if it's sheet rocked under the stairs, I would take the rock off.
Sam had some good advice for you, but I don't like to use trim head screws for my railings, in fact I use washer head screws so I have more holding power. Use 3/8" plugs to fill in the screw holes.

[sal sparacino]

Thank you Sam and Richard for the comments. Just one more question regarding using screws. Since I have pre-finished treads, how do you recommend finishing the plugs so all looks good? I am now questioning my decision to go with pre-finished, however I am now committed. :confused:

[Sam Murdoch]

Sal, under the circumstances I would avoid using screws and plugs except as a last resort. Nearly impossible to just finish over a plug without effecting the entire surrounding area. If you have no alternative but to screw and bung (plug) I would tell the manufacturer what you intend to do and ask them to send you a finish sample or ask for some advice on how to achieve the color. Otherwise you will need to make lots of samples until you get the right stain and finish formula and likely you would need to apply a top coat or two over everything that gets bunged. Not just finish the plug but do the entire tread, for example.

Even if you use a different species of wood for the bungs so that getting the exact staining correct is not so critical you will still need to blend in which will result in refinishing the pre finished wood.

My comments above, in all my other posts in this thread, including this one were in regard to applying treads and riser. Installing and fastening posts, railings and balusters is another topic. For these I prefer that no fastenings are visible and so incorporate joints, details and glue blocks that make this possible. I know that LJ Smith has systems for installing their products but again, that's another topic.

[Tom Hammond]

Sal: PLEASE don't puch holes in the new treads. I take it you're not carpeting this... so what about the risers? A re you painting them, or what?

If you build up the stringers, you'll need to raise the risers.

One other thing... those treads look like oak. Why not refinish them... I turned the treads over on one of my projects and it worked great.

[Howard Acheson]

I'm not sure if I understand your plans correctly but just let me say that you can not glue solid wood to plywood. The solid wood will want to expand and contract across the grain with changes in relative humidity while the plywood will be stable. You will end up with warping and/or other damage.

[Clint Baxter]

Sal, am currently working on a similar project. Are you going to be removing the risers as well as the treads? If so, you can screw the new treads to the plywood from below. Use washer head screws and you'll be able to suck them down tight. Howard has a very pertinent point as well. However, if you screw em down from below, you can make an oversize hole to allow for wood movement.

I plan on screwing my riser to the back of the lower tread and grooving the upper tread to hold the top of the riser. Am using MDF for my risers, so will use construction mastic on the back to keep everything in place. Only riser I'll have to worry about is the bottom one. If I can't get away with just gluing it in place, will use a through fastener and fill any holes. All the treads and risers will be without any surface holes with the possible exception of the bottom riser.

Good luck on your stairs. I did a stairwell of Jatoba for a customer, but we ended up using flooring boards with Jatoba nose pieces. It was all pre-finished and the few nail holes in the nose pieces at least filled well and weren't very obvious.

Clint

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm not sure if I understand your plans correctly but just let me say that you can not glue solid wood to plywood. The solid wood will want to expand and contract across the grain with changes in relative humidity while the plywood will be stable. You will end up with warping and/or other damage.Would that also apply if the treads were glued up sort of like a cutting board, where the "across the grain" ran vertical?
I'd think that in that case, any expansion/contraction would affect the thickness of the treads and leave the length and width stable enough to glue.
If there's any risk @ all, it's no big deal not to use glue since I have full access to the underneath.

In addition to the carpeted concrete steps I mentioned above, I have a set of stairs on the other end of the family room that's made up of plywood treads covered with carpet. I'm hoping to get by on that set with just putting the oak treads over the plywood and not having to tear the plywood out and start from scratch.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> Would that also apply if the treads were glued up sort of like a cutting board, where the "across the grain" ran vertical?

Yes, the only direction of wood grain that does not have significant movement is the length. Lengthwise has some movement but it is so small that is can be ignored for lengths under 20 or so feet.

To learn about the characteristics of wood and various species of wood, I strongly recommend you purchase Bruce Hoadley's Understanding Wood. It's one of the 3 or 4 books that all woodworkers should have and be familiar with.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Howie - gotcha - thanks!
I'll forget the glue then and just use screws from underneath.

[sal sparacino]

Thank you for the comments thus far. However, I am slightly confused so please bear with me and help me to understand my best approach. Here is my current situation. I have prefinished Brazilian treads (1 and 1/16 thick) and risers (3/4 thick). My current stairs are carpeted with a 1 and 1/16 thick tread (not sure of wod type, but it is the original tread from when the home was built in 1984). Since the treads are prefinished, I thought the best approach is to remove the existing tread, add a 1/2 thick plywood subbase and glue the new treads to it. However, after reviewing your comments, it seems I should remove the old treads, and glue/screw the new treads directly to the stringers? Is this the best recommendation? If I do screw the tread to the stringers, I thought about making my own plugs (3/8) from the tread scrap (since I need to cut them anyway) and polyurethane the plug. Hopefully, I am explaining this well enough.

Also, I like the idea of grooving the underside of the tread to fit the riser.

I ram really looking forward to your advice. Thanks again in advance!
Sal

[sal sparacino]

Hi Tom. Thanks for your reply. My treads (1 and 1/16 thick) are prefinished Brazilian Cherry and the risers (3/4 thick) are as well. I did not consider turning them over, but that does make sense. Based on the feedback, it seems as though the best approach is to screw the treads directly to the stringers, plug the holes and refinish.

I just want to be sure that I am dong the right thing here.

Thanks for all the advice.

Sal

[Sam Murdoch]

Screwing the treads down will not allow for any more wood movement than simply attaching them with PL adhesive as I have described in earlier posts, and fastening them from underneath with oversized holes may very well allow wood movement but you will also get a squeaky stairs. I am not dismissing Howard's post about factoring in wood movement but in my research and practical hands on applications wood movement on a 10" tread is negligible.

Consider this -

1) One method is to house the treads/risers into the stringers- the way to achieve a secure and quiet job is to drive glued wedges in from the underside to hold the treads and riser firmly into the stringer. No allowance for wood movement.

2) Scribing skirt boards to fit around the finished faces of the riser and stringers. Again if properly done, even with a modest back bevel on the joint - the skirt firmly holds the treads and risers in position.

3) On open stairways it is very typical to return a mitered molding on the outer edge of the treads and risers. I steer away from this method as it seems to me fraught with potential failure at all those mitered corners but my personal opinion notwithstanding this is considered a good job.

As I told Rich in an earlier post I have no experience with applying wood treads to a concrete base. I have some ideas but I didn't suggest them as I would be guessing at Rich's expense. I hesitated to comment on this last page to avoid controversy but I offered a glued down application as being a good solution for treads that are not accessible from below and I maintain that that is good advice. Admittedly my entire woodwork and remodeling history has been in mid-coast Maine where humidity is high in the summer but the winter heating season takes its toll on woodwork that is not allowed to expand and contract. Nonetheless as regards to stair work, the glue and wedge method or the PL without screws method has served me and my clients well.

Should you apply 1/2" plywood to the existing stringers first? I would prefer (and do) add 1x stock to the sides of the stringers in order to make certain that there is solid support at each tread. On an existing constructed rough stairway (always build your stairway in the shop if you can- why build it twice?) adding some 1x stock to the sides also allows you to level each tread perfectly prior to applying the tread. Most hand cut stringers are not that exact. I then use the PL adhesive under the tread/riser at each stringer. I guess if you were to add the 1/2" ply it might be prudent to add the adhesive only at the 2 or 3 stringers rather than on the entire 1/2" surface. I don't think it makes a difference. The treads will move but as the front of the treads is not confined they will move to the front edge. 3/4" x 7-1/4" risers will move too but not in any way to break your stairway apart - especially when you are using prefinished, well dried and dimensionally stable stock. Always buy more stock than you need and toss out the few pieces that seem to have more shape than is acceptable.

This is a subject well worth reading about here and on other woodworking web sites or in books dedicated to the subject. I'm hoping others with interior stair building experience chime in here. You guys asking for advice on your important projects need to hear from others besides me and (with respect) Howard on this matter.

[Tom Hammond]

If you're going to screw them down, then I would use a contrasting color for the plugs... maybe a natural maple... instead of trying to match the finish of the treads you have. Probably best to make up a jig on a drill press to get consistent positioning. Plus, I'd probably tape over the wood before drilling to minimize tearout. Make sure you post pictures of your finished project.

[Trevor Remster]

Remove the existing treads. Glue and nail directly to the stringers. If you add the 1/2" plywood you will mess up your riser heights. Specifically the first riser will now be 1/2" too high and the top riser will be 1/2" too low. The ones in between will remain unchanged. Use 2-1/2" nails and PL glue. Push down hard when you pull the nail gun's trigger and dial up the air pressure a little.

[sal sparacino]

Thanks again for all the advice. Sam, I like the last comment abut adding 1x stock to the stringer for added support as well as more gluing surface. Since the treads I have are 1 1/16 thick, I will secure them directly to the stringers with the PL. Since it is just me and my wife at home now (kids gone except for one in college), we can control the stair traffic during this project. I will also rabbet the tread to fit the riser (thanks for the article reference on stair construction)!

I will post pictures as I get underway. Likely within several weeks as I am waiting for our railing supplies.

Sal

[sal sparacino]

Thank you Saw Mill Creek respondents! You have been a great help thus far. I have an update and another question as I have begun my project.

Since I am installing hardwood flooring on the second floor (previously carpeted), my top riser height will increase by 3/4". I also found that my first tread riser height was nearly 3/4" less than than other steps (against code). The steps originate on an entry foyer. The first step riser difference is due to the height of a foyer landing and a tile floor that was installed at the time the steps were built. Thus, I decided to add a 3/4" spacer to the stringer such that all steps will have an equal riser of 7.75 inches. Refer to the picture for details (only the new risers are in place thus far; not secured). I added a 2x4 to each tread stringer at the required elevation (using PL and screws) as well as adding spacers directly to the stringer tread surface.

I am still questioning how to secure the new treads. Since I am using Pre finished Brazilian cherry, I prefer not to surface nail or screw these to the stringers. As Sam mentioned in an earlier post, power nailing these trads will cause cracking. I confirmed this on a piece of scrap. One option is to just glue the treads directly to the stringers and newly installed 2x4's with PL. Since it is only me and my wife at home now, this can be done on a weekend and stair traffic eliminated. Also, I can screw the riser to the tread from behind if I start from the bottom step. Is this a sound approach?

As an alternate, I can remove the sheetrock and gain access to the underside of the stairs. This way, I can use pocket screws to secure treads and risers to the stringers. I realize this will be alot more effort but will likely guarantee no squeaks. I would appreciate hearing any comments regarding either of these approaches.

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[Sam Murdoch]

Hi Sal, it's me again :rolleyes:. Working with what you have and that there is no joinery to the treads/risers as I referred to in my # 4 post -"You don't say if you will machine joints into the underside of the tread nose and the face of the stringer so that these all lock together with glue (not the PL adhesive) and hide the joints but that is also well worth the effort if you have enough width in your stock - http://www.g-w.com/pdf/sampchap/9781590706480_ch18.pdf See figure 18/17 on page 607 of this link." I think you are now best off to remove the sheetrock and work from below.

Using just PL to adhere the treads could be a problem as without the back joint of the tread into the riser you would be relying entirely on the PL to keep everything down and tight. No way to clamp among other issues.

Important question - Does the risers go to the stringers or are they cut to fit between each tread? I hope the former.

If the risers are cut to fit between the treads I think you have no choice but to face screw. Here is another thread in which the various ways of face screwing and concealing the screws is discussed - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?207047-Questions-and-opinions-of-my-staircase-project

Assuming that the risers fit from the top of the stringer to the underside of the treads here is how I would proceed -

1) Remove the dry wall to give you access under the stairs.

2) Using a pocket screw jig - prebore pocket screw holes into the back of the risers through which you will screw into the underside of the front of the treads. Plan your pocket holes for ease of access.

3) Get a helper!!

4) Attach the bottom riser using a thin bead of PL and adding some trim screws through the front into the stringers making certain to keep the screws below the thickness of the tread. The bottom riser can be applied using trim screws but you will need to fill the holes, or somehow apply an even pressure to keep it held to the stringer as the PL cures.

5) Attach the 2nd riser

6) Apply a thin film of Pl sub floor adhesive (or equivalent) to the top of the stringers 1st step and a bead of Clear Phenoseal Adhesive Caulk to the back of the tread and the top of riser # 1. (Your treads and riser are finished both sides correct? Yellow glue won't hold so I suggest Phenoseal. It is not a thick as the PL and can be cleaned up with a water damp rag and is an adhesive)

7) Countersink and prebore through the riser into the back of the tread. Screw them together. Use at least 2 screws per side but of course use your judgement as you work and apply fastenings as warranted. HERE your helper should be helping from above to hold everything in position as you apply the screws. Keep the tread from moving away and keep it down tight to the top of the stringer. Body weight is a better than nothing clamp.

8) Pocket screw the 1st riser to the underside of the 1st tread. Ideally you will have made up a full width guide wood that is the thickness of the tread overhang from the face of the riser. Your helper should clamp this guide block tightly to the underside of the tread so that as you set the pocket screws from underneath you are not pushing the riser out of its proper alignment to the nosing of the tread. You will quickly see how useful those joints would have been.

8a) You can skip step 8 if you add some sort of a locking/joint between the tread and the top of the riser before you start the install. This could be a loose spline, Festool dominos, or biscuits. Anything that will properly locate the tread to riser at the front and provide some sort of glue joint. Depending on your circumstance (are every tread and riser exactly the same width?) you could preassemble each tread/riser unit in the shop. This way you will have a nice tight joint and the install time will be cut in half.

9) Helper should be cleaning up phenoseal ooze as you set up your next riser/tread assembly. Clean the phenoseal away as you work otherwise it will be much more work later.

10) At this point you will have one tread and 2 risers in place. Work your way up following the same procedure.

Sounds like work but with a good helper this will go easily.

I think I have described the process correctly but please feel free to edit and/or ask for some clarity.

Good luck and keep your wits about you. Mostly have fun too :). You'll love it when its all done.

[sal sparacino]

Hi again Sam. Thank you for your response. I should have given you some more information. The risers that I have in pace thus far are dry fit only and none of the treads are installed yet. The risers are cut to fit between the stringer and tread. In the picture I included, I put the old tread in place while working on the risers. I did download the article you suggested and plan to join the riser and treads as shown in the pictures. Your procedure is very detailed, thank you. As I understand it, using joinery and fasteners from the back side of the riser into the treads, I can avoid adding fasteners to the face of the treads.

Due to my work schedule, am several weeks away from working on the treads. As I begin, I will provide updates and pictures. Thanks again for checking in on my project!

Sal

[sal sparacino]

Hello Saw Mil Creek Forum. I wanted to post an update on my stair renovation project. And Sam, thank you for your posts. I followed your last instructions to the tee! Brief recap of what I did:

1) I had to increase the height of each tread by 3/4" due to the new hardwood floor I am installing on the second floor.
2) I removed the sheet rock under the stairs and added 2x4 spacers for the correct height. Each spacer was put in place with 4 wood screws and PL 400 adhesive. I also added a spacer to the top of each stringer so that its height was equal to the new spacer along the side of each stringer. The top spacers were secured in place with nails and PL.
3) Each riser and tread had a rabbit and groove fit (just like the Stair construction article you recommended Sam, fig 18-17)
4) Each tread was secured with PL on the stringer and tow screwed in place from underneath with nine screws (3 per stringer).
5) Each tread and riser rabbit and groove joint was glued with Titebond (only the face of the tread and riser was pre-finished, so no problem with the wood glue)
6) All risers were screwed into the tread from behind with six wood screws.
7) All 12 stairs are finished and solid!

272448272449

Now I need to repair the sheetrock and move onto installing the new railing and woodfloors. I guess that I will start a new post for these projects. Thanks again to all that offered advice!!

Sal

[Sam Murdoch]

I bet these are absolutely squeak free :). Yeah, you did it! Good job - I hope you are happy with the results. They look great from here.

[David Nelson1]

Nice Job Sal!!! Hope mine turn out as well as your did. BTW thanks for the topic it will be handy!