May I be Nosey?

[Art Mann]

For those of you who already own a CNC Router, I would really like to know what model or DIY kit you have and what your primary use of it is. I am trying to decide what to buy and how much to spend and this information would be very helpful to me (and probably others).

Thanks so much.

Art

[Bruce Page]

Art, I took delivery of a Camaster Stinger 1 last March as a retirement present to myself. It is a very stout, industrial quality CNC with a 25” X 36” X 5” work envelope. Right now I’m in the learning phase of the machine & software but it has been pretty straight forward to this point. So far, I have just made stuff for my wife, kids and grandkids, but wouldn’t be opposed to making some money with it down the road. The primary reason for buying it however, was to play.

[Keith Outten]

Art,

I own a CAMaster Stinger II with a 36" by 48" table and I have the Recoil Lathe on my router.
I am a sign maker and the majority of my signs are made from Dupont Corian countertop material.

[bobby milam]

I have a shark pro. It's a 24"x24" cnc. It is more of a hobbyist machine than say the cammasters you see above. I think it runs around $3400. I bought it about a year ago and knew nothing about CNCs at the time. Also, just as important as the machine itself is which software you use. I use vectric's vcarve and cut3D. It will do what most of the others will do but will take me much longer to do it.

I'm guessing by your question that you are new to it also. I'll give you some advise. Research and decide what YOU want to be able to do. What kind of space do you have available for one? I want a 4X8 table and I have the room made for it. Do you just want to make things for yourself or do you want to make money with it? Figure out what you want to spend and then decide if you could spend a little more for a better machine. Do you want to build it yourself and save money or do you want it to come in a crate ready to use? Check into other costs associated with the machine. Some will come with the needed accessories included in the price.

Even though I didn't make the wisest choice on my CNC for me, I still love using a CNC. I have a list of things to do with it and never enough time. I started selling things to customers but I have so many projects that I want to do for myself that I have stopped taking any orders. I want to have some time to play with it and make things for myself. They are fun toys if nothing else. I'm only limited by my imagination

[Jerome Stanek]

I have a 48x96 Shopbot I cut a lot of dimensional letters and logos for different sign shops. Also cut trade show displays mostly large items.

[Bruce Page]

That is really nice work Jerome!

[gary l roberts]

Its a big question, one we all went through in the beginning. I have seen 12' x 12' MDF models with a dremal do amazing things. I've seen High Price machines sit idle cause the buyer didn't understand the custom operating system.
Most of us are two machine owners. The first one we learned on... then you either fall out of the game or you go get the second machine. Budget, space, time to learn, are all things you have to work out. Most of us went to bigger most robust machines the second time like the CAMMASTERS you saw here or Shopbots, but there are tons of new machine appearing from all the tool companies. THe net is full of forums so sign up and start learning and read, read, read and then come back and ask questions. The crital part is software, ie try to find a package that will travel to the next machine with you. You'll fine Aspire /vcarve pro a good choice (good forum as well). My input.
Good luck.

[Art Mann]

Thank you all for the responses so far! Bobby is absolutely right. I need to decide what I want to do with it and choose a machine based on that. The responses are helping me to clarify the answer. I started out wanting a hobby machine to enhance my furniture and box building efforts - basically a sophisticated toy. I may still settle for something like that. As I researched the available equipment, I started to think in terms of commercial applications as well. If I go that direction, I will have to raise the requirements considerably. I am a retired electronics manufacturing engineer and I am very familiar with computer controlled manufacturing equipment and technology. My wife is just about to retire as a graphics designer for a printing company. She is looking for a part time money making activity. My son has a degree in industrial design and is wanting to do some moonlighting on the side. It seems that we could collaborate and come up with products and/or services that people would want to buy - - but what? That is my reason for creating the thread.

Like Bobby, I started out looking at machines like the Rockler Shark Pro Plus HD and the General iCarver. I just don't think they are fast or robust enough to use in a commercial setting. Currently, I am looking at machines like the Shopbot Desktop and Buddy, the Laguna iQ CNC and the Camaster Stinger I. I would welcome suggestions for similar equipment from other manufacturers. I have looked at the kits from companies like CNCRouter Parts. I have the skills to build and configure a machine if it will save enough money and perform like a commercial unit. I am not yet convinced of that but would love to hear from commercial users who have built their own CNC router. My choice is constrained by space as well. I have a 24 X 28 foot shop but it is already full of woodworking equipment. I am planning on selling my RAS to make more room.

Bruce and Keith, judging from the photos, you both have beautiful setups. Camaster recommends itself to me for several reasons. They appear to be built to survive a small thermonuclear blast. I read a lot of CNC forums and I have yet to hear from an owner who wishes he had bought another brand. Finally, their location in Cartersville, GA is only about a 1.5 hour drive from our family farm. It is an easy day trip to go there and get a demo or to get parts or service should that become necessary.

Jerome, I appreciate the photos and share Bruce's admiration for your work. I would welcome more pictures or links to pictures of machines and products people have made.

Edit: Gary, I just spotted your response. I am trying to avoid buying a learning machine, only to have to upgrade after a few months or a year.

I have already downloaded demo versions of the Vectric products and ArtCAM express. I understand the methodology fairly well, since I specified, purchased and programmed robotic manufacturing equipment as part of my job as a manufacturing engineer. I don't plan on dealing with the artistic aspects of Aspire or other design software. My wife is well versed in design software such as Adobe illustrator and my son has done 3-D modeling using Rhino and SolidWorks. I will leave the design to them.

[AL Ursich]

A possible Stepping Stone is to look at the CarveWright HOBBY machine to learn some CNC basics for around $2K. I know it is not the question you asked.... but it meets my needs. Yes, the machine does have limitations, I have learned to work around them for the price... I use it or them in my business to make signs and cut plastic stock for tags I make.

CarveWright has a Forum that gives you a feel for what is possible at that price. Use the money made from the CW to buy a big machine.

Good Luck,

AL

[Art Mann]

Early on, I looked at the Carvewright and watched a local demo. It will do some impressive work. I finally ruled it out because of the proprietary nature of the software. If I am going to buy a learning machine, I want to learn to use industry standard software so I can migrate my skill set to different machines easily.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I finally pulled the trigger on a CNC Router Parts 9648 machine. I found one local which I picked up. Everything you read about them is more or less true. It's a quality light industry router. I went back and forth between the 4848 and the 9648 but I had the room for the 96 so I decided to go for it. I didn't want to be in the position where I had to turn jobs down because my machine was too small. Maybe a year or two from now I'll change my mind and buy something more industrial that is smaller, but for right now, I think it's a good choice.

Personally, I wouldn't buy or build a machine that didn't have at least 4ft of cutting on the Y axis. Being able to process sheet goods easily is something you can always fall back on with a CNC router. To take away that ability just seems foolish to me.

[AL Ursich]

Early on, I looked at the Carvewright and watched a local demo. It will do some impressive work. I finally ruled it out because of the proprietary nature of the software. If I am going to buy a learning machine, I want to learn to use industry standard software so I can migrate my skill set to different machines easily.

Sounds like a Great Plan.

Good Luck,

AL

[Brandon MacDougall]

I want to learn to use industry standard software so I can migrate my skill set to different machines easily.

I feel this is a open statement in a way, Carvewright software is more advanced and powerful then a lot of software I tested. Most designers or artist have to be able to use two or thee software programs. An example if I was to design a carved top guitar I have a very hard time just using Aspire but could do it in the Carvewright software and export to Aspire same with Rhino or Lightwave 3D. I think one of the Aspire free project Designers manly uses Corel. I been asking LHR to make a Copy of Designer that will run machines like CamMaster and it looks like this will happen soon. Having said this I also looking to upgrade my CNC's to a CamMaster soon.

[Art Mann]

From what I saw, the Carvewright software makes the creation of 3-D relief carvings easy. I hope they can put out a version that is of more universal application.

[Sam Harbold]

I have an 48" x 96" ShopBot that I bought new in 1999. We use our machine mostly for architechural millwork. 98% of this we do in PVC material (Versatex, Azek)
265311265312265313265314265315265316265317265318

[Art Mann]

That is an application I hadn't thought about. Nice work!

[bobby milam]

Art, definitely go see cammaster if they are that close. You won't regret it even if you go another route. There are many shopbots out there and their users praise them too. You could get on their forum and find someone nearby to go see it in person. I've never seen the laguna so can't comment on them. If you have a Rocklers close by go see the shark demo. Seeing them in person will really help you appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of each. You might want the cammaster for it's solid build or you might like the shopbot because you might get a bigger table within your budget.


I do just fine with a 24x24 footprint but I am always wishing for more. Even if I don't need say a 4x8 table for one item, I can simultaneously cut several things at one time on it which would speed up my production time. Sounds like this will be for all 3 of you so you can justify the extra cost of a really good machine. I met the guys for both cammaster and shopbot and they seem to be good guys and will sell you on what their machines will do and not on bashing the others. I'm trying to figure out my budget right now to see what I can upgrade to. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Rich Fennessey]

Art, I think answering a few questions could guide you. These are some off top of my head.

1) Is this hobby or business?
2) Do you care about production time?
3) Do you want to be able to cut aluminum and harder woods? Large items too?
4) Why am I looking to buy a CNC?
5) Am I spending fun money or do I need this venture to pay for itself?

1) If this is a hobby then there is no hurry on getting a machine and required accessories. If you are starting a business, then expect a fair amount of effort getting it set up and figuring out products and services. This is easier if you have ran some type of business in the past. If this is business, then you will probably want a more capable/larger machine to be able to accept a larger variety of jobs.

2) Production time: I love having multiple tools available. Even with only 3 tools available to me at a time, it has been a big benefit when making items. It is a huge time saver, especially if you do any type of production. A vacuum table is another accessory that you may also want eventually.

3) You just want a heavier duty system if you want to be open to handle production type of cutting. Also, get biggest table practical. For quite a while, I didn't cut much over 2'x2'. Lately I've needed to put full 4'x8' sheets down and full length lumber. Also, larger table lets you keep a corner for projects while another one might be keeping a template laid down for another project. This weekend I need to cut a 4'x6' sign, definitely one of my bigger items to cut.

4) Business or hobby is a top level answer of why you might be getting a CNC. You may be inspired by beautiful furniture, 3D carvings, and signage. Figure out a general area that you want to go in to. This will help you determine power, size, configuration and software required. These machines are very flexible but can be complicated. Be willing to spend some significant time figuring out techniques. Holding down material is a whole subject area in itself.

5) There is different approach if you need to make money from this. Either way, you need to enjoy yourself while you work and learn. If you are only doing this to make money and you don't have a current business where a CNC machine would help, I'd recommend a different business venture. It will certainly help if you have done woodworking in the past and have other tools. If you spend $10K on a machine, expect to spend "at least" another 50% of that on accessories and infrastructure. If this is strictly a hobby and you are not sure you will be doing it a year from now, then I'd minimize expenses and get a small machine. I'd say no matter what a minimum you will be spending is $3K-$5K. If you are handy, you can consider building one but make sure that is a process you would enjoy and I wouldn't do it just for the cost savings.

Oh, BTW, my machine is listed in my signature block. I bought on the high side to cover what ever I wanted to do. I found the Camaster online forum to be a huge asset in my learning. I also think Shopbot has a great online support infrastructure. This is a side business of mine but also a new direction in my career. I'm an aspiring inventor and entrepreneur but work full time in information technology which pays well. I want the machine to pay for itself but it doesn't have to at this time. I also consider the CAD/CAM aspect of CNC to be an enhancement to my background as an engineer. So you see, the purchase of my CNC for me was not only about making things but about changing my career. I also really like computer graphics work and a CNC is great compliment to actually creating what is on the screen. I also evaluated lots of other type of machines before buying a CNC to include waterjets, laser engravers, cutters, welders, plasma cutters, and 3D printers.

[Art Mann]

Hi Rich,

Here is an aswer to your questions -- today. My desires and plans are evolving.

1) Is this hobby or business?

I started out looking for a hobby machine but the idea has evolved into a possible part time business.

2) Do you care about production time?

No - within reason. I am retired. Now, I would sacrifice machine time for lower machine cost. That could change.

3) Do you want to be able to cut aluminum and harder woods? Large items too?

Hard woods - certainly. Aluminum - maybe although it isn't a primary consideration. Large items - my desire for bigger grows the more research I do.

4) Why am I looking to buy a CNC?

I build keepsake and jewelry boxes for gifts and for sale. My original idea was to buy a machine to do relief carving and personalization for those. Since I started researching machinery, I have become aware of many, many other possible applications. In part, I started this thread to help answer that question.

5) Am I spending fun money or do I need this venture to pay for itself?

I am retired and do not need any additional income to live. I started out with an idea to buy a sophisticated woodworking toy. However, if I spend the money for something like a Shopbot Buddy or a Camaster Stinger, I would need to make at least some money to justify the purchase. As far as building my own goes, I have the skills to build one but I want to be sure that it will perform like a commercial unit - at least as far as precision goes.

Bobby,

I plan to visit Camaster the next time I go down to the farm for a few days. I have already seen a Carvewright demo though it was a while back and was not with the idea of buying one. I recently went to a Woodcraft Store and saw a demonstration of the General iCarve machine. (I was not impressed). I wish I knew someone who owned a Shopbot so I could check it out.

Once again, thank you all again for the highly useful comments!

[Keith Outten]

CAMaster and ShopBot both make good machines. My first was a ShopBot PRT Alpha and now I own a CAMaster Stinger. All of the CAMaster machines have welded frames which is a major detail for me for many reasons. Moving a welded frame machine is a snap, a bolted frame presents a different set of issues to deal with. Machining lithophanes or 2 and a half D stuff works better with a welded frame.

You can make plywood templates for carpet companies.
You can make plywood templates for plumbers, electrical and masonry companies.
You can engrave glass inserts for cabinet shops and machine details in cabinet doors.
You can make a sell cutting boards as a business in itself.
You can produce and sell all kinds of project kits.
Signs...my favorite :)

[Art Mann]

Hey Keith,

Thanks for the additional ideas. I noticed in a previous post that you work a lot with Corian. I had never thought of that as a medium. I went to your profile and looked at your photos and I would like to see more if you have the time. Do you have a web page? Someone mentioned Versatex as a medium. That also sounds like a sounds like an interesting medium to try.

[Jerome Stanek]

Here are 2 lithos I did on my shopbot the left one is corian and the right one is acrylic. There are a lot of lithos made on the Shark and other units that are not welded.

[Keith Outten]

Art,

When I started making signs I found out that there are sign companies on every corner so I decided that my new sign business had to have something unique to offer potential customers. I was friendly with a local husband and wife team that ran a counter top shop and they offered me some of their Corian drops to experiment with and when I got my ShopBot my production went through the roof. As luck would have it I had a very big commercial sign job in process so I made some Corian samples and the customer loved them. They started ordering more and more Corian signs so my work-list got longer every day in spite of my increased production using the ShopBot. This is the job that paid for my new ShopBot in one week. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time.

Corian is solid gold to my business. I have found out through the years that Corian is a versatile material that has a very high perception of value with customers. It also has the lowest cost of ownership for customers of any material I have ever used and my labor costs are less which offsets the cost of the material.

When I was working for CNU running the sign shop I had more work than you could imagine both at work and at home in my sign shop. I retired last February so I decided that now is the time to put up a new web site so I hired a professional marketing pro/designer I have known for ten years to help me put something together. We have been working on the web site for weeks now and should release the site in another week.

I have a 23" wide by 27.75" tall Corian sign for the Abingdon Fire Department to install today and then a similar design to make for Saint Mary's School before I start on another business directory for a local Insurance company that should be pretty sweet. I spent a lot of time and money over the last two months working on my shop upgrading and purchasing new machines, getting ready for the next round of sign jobs. Now that I am full time in my shop again my goal is to get a bit more organized than I have been in the past. In spite of my concentrated effort to setup the new machines I have had an almost constant stream of ADA sample requests so I have had to keep that going along with the shop upgrades. Trotec Laser has asked me to produce several ADA signs for their advertising and trade show events, they will be completed this week.

I'm still a rookie operator, most of my work is simple flat style signs but it pays well and I like the work. I ordered my Stinger II with a CNC Lathe three years ago and I haven't had the time to use the lathe to this day. Once my shop is where I want it to be I hope to be able to take a short break and spend some time learning to use the CNC Lathe so I can start offering some new designs to my customers.

[Keith Outten]

Jerome,

Sorry, I had no intention of bashing ShopBot or any other manufacturer. I just prefer CNC machines that have a welded frame and in all fairness I should share with you that I spent most of my life as a welding Inspector so welding is near and dear to my heart. The first two and a half D job I machined on the ShopBot at CNU I noticed the frame was shaking as the router bit changed directions quickly. I new instantly that the vibration would disappear if the frame was welded instead of bolted together and since that time I have had a preference for welded frames. Two of my shop benches are welded steel frames with !/4" Stainless steel tops and I have made several of my machine stands myself using my old Miller Buzz Box over the years.

I just purchased a Miller mig/tig/stick machine and a plasma torch so you can see that my personal preference is a serious one but I will admit it isn't for everyone.

I have been fortunate to be able to meet Ted Hall the owner of ShopBot many times. Ted is a great guy and he is probably the reason that any of us are able to afford a CNC machine for our small shops. Ted Hall championed the small affordable CNC machines and his company sells more machines than any other manufacturer. ShopBot has an excellent team of people on their staff and a great support forum. The ShopBot Camps that Ted Hall sponsors are always the place to be no matter what machine you own, their Staff makes everyone welcome and they work hard to provide an informative session that keeps up with the industry as fast as it changes.

I'm still a big ShopBot fan and I watch their company closely because they are innovative and they provide more support to small companies than any other manufacturer IMO.

Nice job on the Lithophanes BTW. They have the WOW factor beyond any other project I have seen produced on a CNC Router. Unfortunately I have never had the time to make one because of my previous day job, three to four hours per day working behind the scenes here at The Creek and my sign business. Now that I am down to just two jobs I hope to be able to stop and smell the roses every now and then.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Although I have less experience, I agree with Keith's opinion on a welded steel base. I just got my CNCRouterParts 4896 and haven't run it myself but saw it run in the previous owners shop and you can definitely tell the bolted base is a limiting factor. I plan on adding bracing to tighten things up but it will never be the same as a welded base. The thing is with a ShopBot, EZRouter, Joes CNC or CNCRP machine is you can always add a welded base if you want once you start making some money. The price of a welded table (Let's say $1000-1500) is not all that incredible. You can also design it however you want which is an added bonus in many ways. It allows you to start small and build up as you go. Now there are other differences between these machines (rails and motion being the most obvious) but upgrading your machine with these bolt together designs is not that difficult. Also, I put my machine through a 32" door yesterday. That would have been impossible with something like a CAMaster.

I was in your shoes looking for a router. It took me a long time to pull the trigger. My opinion is you want to get a versatile machine with a proven design that doesn't cost a fortune to start off. $7-10,000 for a 4x8 machine with software, dust collection, bits, ect is a reasonable budget. Something 4x4 is probably between $4-7,000. Again these are light industry machines at this budget. Something more industrial will obviously increase the price dramatically. What you will find out is that people have been making money with light industry machines like the Shopbot for years.

[Keith Outten]

I normally would never recommend that anyone purchase a light duty machine when you know that its only half the machine you need. A CNC Router is probably the exception to the rule and the reason is that they are money makers. Even a hobby woodworker can make enough money doing small side jobs to pay for a large commercial CNC Router long before your lightweight machine is worn out.

My ShopBot paid for itself real quick.
My Stinger II paid for itself and has already funded a full sized Cobra when I decide its time to add another machine. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people here who will tell the same story.

FWIW I never push my CNC Routers to hard. Going fast isn't a requirement for me and I am almost always machining hard plastic (Corian) which will dull your tools if you push the speed to fast.
.

[Jerome Stanek]

I didn't mean to come off that way I just wanted Art to know that he is not limited to a welded frame unit for Lithos or even production work. The big thing is getting something that you can afford and will do he job.

[Art Mann]

What an interesting and useful discussion! I spent part of my career as a manufacturing engineering supervisor at a very high volume electronics manufacturing plant and you guys are addressing some of the problems I observed in that capacity. We used custom designed CNC routers to cut printed circuit boards and high precision conformal coating applicators that used very similar gantry style robots. (we also used lasers extensively to engrave part and serial numbers and logos). I have had to resolve issues with machines that were constructed with bolt together aluminum extrusions. That is why I am so interested in the experience of kit builders. That is also one reason why the Camaster welded machines appeal to me. I have also had to deal with steppers that got off a little over time and needed to be "homed" to restore accuracy. Closed loop servo motors would fix that but I expect they are too expensive for smaller CNC routers.

[Bruce Page]

You can upgrade the Camaster Stinger II and above with closed loop. I'm not sure if you can on the Stinger I.

[Shari Loveless]

Well I might as well put my two cents worth in on the machine I chose. First I had a Carvewright, then a 4x4 PRT alpha and NOW I have a 4 x 8 Patriot by Freedom Machine Tool. Made in Colorado Springs, CO. I also had 3" extensions put in the Z so I can do thick logs for mantles. I mostly do carving with the machine and use everything from 1/2 to 1/32 bits. The detail this machine can achieve is astounding. It's dead on every time. And I have put it through it's paces. No fussing and no frustration. It's a machine you won't outgrow!

[bobby milam]

Nice table. Out of my price range!

[Keith Outten]

Shari,

How about sharing some pictures of your Patriot router?
I haven't seen or heard of the company yet.
.

[Shari Loveless]

Keith,
I'd be happy to. May be after the 4th before I get to it. It's in a very small room and blocked in on two sides and yet it's very workable. They do make a 4x4 as well. It is a first class machine in components and the company people are very passionate and knowledgeable about what they build. I ordered the machine without a tool changer but I do have the automatic tool height sensor. Just change bits, do a M101 and carve the next file. I can't believe how quiet it is. I have to check on it just to make sure it's running sometimes. I only have to use the dust collection for the precarve, never for the final carve. I have run files for 50+ hours with 3 bit changes and the machine never hiccuped. I don't have the handheld pendant yet, but it's on my list. Their website is freedomcnc dot com if you want to look at pics and specs.

When I priced out other somewhat similar machines with quality components, the Patriot was not at all over priced in comparison. I also drove up and toured the factory before ordering. That was an awesome eye opener. Loved the adventure. We tested our files on several machine brands before we made our decision. Lots of driving to different locations to see and test them. We are extremely happy with our choice. Our software is Artcam Pro. That's another item you won't outgrow.

I've attached a couple of pics of some stuff I've done on the machine recently. The king size bed footboard with moose went to a Jackson Hole client. That slab is 3" thick and the carving is 1" deep....it's BIG and HEAVY. The little bear box is 5 x 7 and cut from a thick slab.

Hope everyone has a great and safe fourth of July!!!
Shari
265709265710265711

[Art Mann]

Just looking at their website, the FMT Patriot is waaaay too expensive for me. You can't argue with results though. From what I can tell from the photos, those pieces are just beautiful. Those are the results I am hoping for from a less expensive unit. Of course, those pieces owe their beauty to the design, not just the machine. You have my highest compliments.

[Roy Nielsen]

Art,

There has been a lot of great discussion from the commercial route.

I'll throw out some thoughts from a DIY builder/hobbyist. I built a 18"x51" capacity (+ some over air if I ever need to do some dovetails or other end cuts, also I can index my material in either X or Y direction to get more capacity) using 80/20 for the frame, used industrial linear bearings, some CNCRouterParts_com pieces, NEMA 23 steppers, Gecko drivers, other misc electronics, router for a spindle. The size chosen reflects my relatively small available work space versus one of the prime drivers (future cabinets project) for building the machine. Total hardware and electronics cost of around $1.5K as I recall estimating, about evenly split between hardware and electronics; much of the hardware was purchased via eBay auctions where I got some pretty good deals, probably saving me close to $500. Add to that cost of tools needed to build, software (VCarve Pro for design, CNC gcode control--$free LinuxCNC), router bits, spare parts, etc. and I'm probably pushing the $3K mark.

As a hobbyist, the experience and education were invaluable to me and I would do it over. I know the machine, can repair it myself. I can also modify it myself if I want more capacity and can arrange more room for it. For instance, I'm planning on building a bolt-on/off horizontal rotary and possibly a vertical rotary.

As for accuracy, it is slightly out of square in X-Y, X-Z, and Y-Z by about 1-3/10ths of a degree (as measured by Wixey gauge) so fairly accurate for most tasks but may cause problems when I get around trying to do inlays--I'm trying to figure out how to add fine adjustment mechanisms. The machine is still small enough that I can do delicate work such as lithophanes with great results.

If I had to do all over again, I would probably buy/build a good small machine, in the 12"x12" range, such as MicroCarve's machines, and later a mid-size machine. So far (still haven't go to the cabinets), around 95% of the stuff I've done would have fit on a small machine. I may still build a small machine that would allow me to run multiple jobs simultaneously or easier to load smaller jobs.

If you do choose to build your own or from a kit, DO NOT skimp on the electronics. I've seen too many people try the cheap route and after tiring with the constant problems of breaking, bad jobs, whatever, end up buying the better stuff. Only talking $150-250 or so difference, maybe less.

Would I want to run a business from a DIY system? I guess it really depends on what I was making. If I were doing something small, such as the jewelry boxes you mentioned, then yes, I would on a small to mid-size machine (or multiple machines). If I needed to process large sheet goods or slabs, then I'd probably lean toward a commercial machine as I don't the tools and haven't done anything like that in decades.

Good luck with whichever direction you choose to take.

[William Adams]

Some more data from the other end of the spectrum.

Bought an open source hobbyist machine (a ShapeOko) back at the beginning of the year, got it running in its default configuration, added a drive shaft which is pretty much a mandatory upgrade, then increased the size of one axis to 1m and improved the machine rigidity by doubling up the other axis by re-using a rail. Upgraded the Z-axis to an Acme screw and built a torsion box for a base, worked up cable management using 36" zip ties, and worked up dust collection of a sheet of transparency film:

265825

I've cut some test pieces and one small test project --- been working on my first real project, but finding open source software to be a challenge and hand-coding G-code to be tedious.

I've been trying to get everything about the machine documented in the wiki:

http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Hoping the Fabrication & Manufacturing stackexchange site will help to make more information available:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/41850/fabrication-manufacturing?referrer=SuuDAMPjuMEAKpA7nTzd4Q2

Did source an extruder for 3D printing and looking forward to experimenting w/ it.

[Keith Outten]

Shari,

Thanks for the pics and the web site info.
Nice work as always, your designs are eye candy and it looks like you found the machine you have been looking for :)
.

[Art Mann]

Thanks Roy and William for relating your experiences with build-it-yourself. I haven't given up on that possibility yet. I was going over all the products and information on cncrouterparts.com just yesterday. As I mentioned earlier, I am confident I could build a machine. I just want to make sure the design was engineered to be reliable and cut as accurately as a commercial machine. I am also concerned about integrating design software, tool path software and controller software on a home built machine. My main interest is making artistic and practical projects from wood or alternative materials rather than making carving machines. On the other hand, the potential for saving some money and the satisfaction I would get from building my own machine is appealing.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

I have just finished building and testing my CNC Router Parts CRP4848 (yeah, I know, I need to update my thread!). If you are concerned about integrating design software, tool path software, and controller software on one of their machines, don't be at all! I bought VCarve Pro and Mach 3. I finished the mechanical part of my machine and set up the computer and hooked it all up. I used their XML configuration file and I had my machine jogging on the third day after starting building. On the 4th day, I was making my first cuts. It just works and works flawlessly. The very first time I tried jogging the machine, it moved exactly as I told it to. I am not into carving at all. VCarve Pro is NOT specifically a carving program. It is a tool pathing program that is super easy to work with and it works great with Mach3. You can do v-carving, sure, but you can also do complete 2.5d work with it as well. This was my very first venture into the CNC world and it has been a GREAT experience building my own machine. I am really glad I did, especially for the money I saved and the fact I know every inch of my machine and how it all goes together. I was intimidated by building my own at first but it all simply comes together easily.

As for money, I have right at $4,100 in my 48x48 machine with all electronics, including shipping. This includes an upgrade to the rack and pinion system and extras such as proximity limit switches and KentCNC's dust collection foot. I have about $400 in my base materials but I went a little overboard. It is very stout and strong, though! I also have another $720 in software and $180 in dust collection via a dedicated Harbor Fright dust collector that is vented to the outside so no bag restrictions. I have $155 in a Super PID for complete router speed control via software and $130 in a Hitachi M12V router. All total, I have spent about $5,685. I do not know of anywhere I could have touched a 4x4 machine for that price. I did not buy mine as a hobby. I am using it in my business to make my living. I hope to get some time to do some playing but thus far, it has been cutting prototype parts to make sure they are going to work before I put them in full production.

I will try to update my build thread over the weekend so you can see what all I did and some of the things I have done with it thus far. If you want to call and ask questions about building a CNC Router Parts kit, please feel free to do so. I would welcome the call and would be happy to share any insight I have as a new CNC operator and recent builder!

My number is 512-738-0775.

[Mick A Martin]

You pay for what you get ..... if you want a Porsche then don't buy a mini, I understand buying a CNC is a lot of money, do your resource visit owners of a CNC BUT don't buy just the cheapest otherwise you will get spite later on.

[William Adams]

Software integration is a non-issue if one doesn't get boxed in w/ a proprietary system (e.g., Carvewright).

A .dxf is the same, no matter what app writes it out, a .stl can be parsed by pretty much any 3D CAM program, and G-code is a standard:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.15.7813
http://www.isd.cme.nist.gov/personnel/kramer/pubs/RS274NGC_3.pdf

[Roy Nielsen]

Art,

As William and Curtis said, the software chain would be largely or wholly the same for most CNCs, the exception being Carvewright. A lot of people use Vectric apps for design and g-code generation; the computer that is used for design does not need to be connected to the CNC and in fact often isn't attached. Mach3 (Windows, ~$175) and LinuxCNC ($free) are the two main CNC g-code interpreters that control the actual CNC; both are suitable and used on home builds as well as commercial machines. Not sure if any modern machines run proprietary controller software.

You might want to look around on cnczone_com. It has a great community for both commercial and DIY users, including hundreds or thousands of build logs. A little searching will uncover a lot of DIY newby questions and answers. Also some occasional samples of projects.

Also look around on Vectric_com's site and especially forum for the types of projects being accomplished. A good number of the people in the forum are using DIY builds.

Roy

[Art Mann]

Thank you Curtis for that very valuable report on the CNCRouterParts kit build and performance. That gives me a little more confidence that the DIY machines would meet my requirements. It also gives me a lot of insight into the "real" cost of building my own machine. I was just looking at their website again and noticed they offer a "pro" kit with upgraded mechanics and electronics. I would like to stick with a single vendor if I build my own. I am not interested in doing an eBay scavenger hunt to build the cheapest machine possible. I am looking forward to seeing your updated build thread.

I mentioned software configuration and integration concerns because that is the number one problem I read about with amateur CNC router builders. It is hard to tell just from the blogs whether a person has valid compatibility issues or is just suffering from a lack of knowledge (or ability). I appreciate all the reassurances that it is close to plug and play between the various software products.

Just as a side note on software, I don't believe Shopbot equipment uses G-code. They use an enhanced proprietary command structure and control system.

Mick, I appreciate your advice but I am not trying to make a living with a CNC router. I am retired and have sufficient income without it. This whole thing started out as a hobby interest. It was only after studying the available equipment and what people are doing with it that I began to think in terms of making money. If I were going to try to produce enough to need a nice machine like you have, I would just go back to work as an electrical engineer. I am struggling to justify buying a machine like the Stinger I.

EDit: One more thing - thank you Curtis for your kind offer to help me out by telephone. I may take you up on that when my plans evolve a little further. I anxiously await the update to your build thread.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Your statement about software configuration and integration is exactly why I did as you are considering and bought everything solely from CNC Router Parts. The only thing I did not buy from them was my Super PID and it is not necessary to operate the machine. It just gives you precise speed control of the router from Mach3. I probably could have saved some money by sourcing some of the parts myself but did not know where to begin and wanted something that was plug and play where all I had to do was assemble it. I can say that CNC Router Parts kits are just that. Sure, I may not have an industrial machine but my needs did not call for one and my pocket book certainly did not! I am in a position in life where I am debt free and and would have had to take a loan to afford the $10-3,000 or so for a 4x4 machine already built. Instead, I was willing to put some sweat equity into it to save some money and feel I have a very capable machine that will help my business grow. In the future, if my business has the need for a more robust machine for some reason, I hope this one will help make the money to do so as borrowing the money is not an option for me!

BTW, I was in the exact same position you are in now before my build. I called and talked with a couple folks who have built a similar machine as well as talking with Corey and Ahren at CNC Router Parts. I was still nervous pulling the trigger on so much money but am really glad I did. I just wish I could have afforded to do so a few years ago! A CNC router is like a tractor. If you don't have one, you may think of a couple of uses for it but once you have one, you find all kinds of uses for it you never thought of!

[Art Mann]

I swapped a couple of emails with Corey at CNC Router Parts. I sent him a series of questions and he responded promptly. I am thinking about ordering the new "Pro" series model PRO4824 with NEMA 34 motor kit. According to the specifications, the performance is not far from that of the Camaster Stinger I with the same router or spindle. The cost is somewhere near $1000 less than the Camaster 24 X 32 machine. Before I buy anything, I am going to visit Camaster to see the machine up close and watch it run. I have ruled out Shopbot for the meanwhile because their equivalent machine ("Buddy") is more expensive still.

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for the valuable information. I think this thread is an example of forum discussion at its best.

[William Adams]

Just as a side note on software, I don't believe Shopbot equipment uses G-code. They use an enhanced proprietary command structure and control system.

Interestingly, Shopbot opensourced their command language a while back:

http://www.opensbp.com/

[Rich Fennessey]

If you think you might eventually sell your machine in order to upgrade, then buying a supported brand will certainly have a better resell value. On the other hand, if you learn how to put one together, you can build yourself a bigger/better system later. Depends on how much time you have and how interested/talented you are at electro-mechanical assembly. Personally, if I was looking at approximately 25% more for a fully assembled, supported machine that I could work with immediately, I'd do that. But then again, I'm usually very short on free time and have a decent budget.

I'm personally very interested in the control/motion systems (I have BS Engineering) but was more interested getting started making things. I've actually done a couple of repairs on my system and have learned a lot about how they work. I had never looked at them real closely till I got mine through the door.

Either way you go, the experience should be enjoyable, educational, and productive. Best of luck.

[Art Mann]

Rich, I am a retired EE and manufacturing engineering manager at a very high volume automotive electronics plant. I am very familiar with 80/20 extrusion construction techniques, gantry style robots, stepper and servo motors and computer controls. My concern has been whether a kit is properly engineered to provide the same accuracy as a good commercial unit. I am becoming convinced that CNC Router Parts sells such kits. My threshold for a make/buy decision is ~20%. Being retired, I have more time and less money than you probably do. Your point about resale value is a good one.

If I can set it up, I plan to visit Camaster next week and see a machine in operation and get a more accurate picture of the cost of a Stinger I with options and accessories. I think that will help me a lot.

[bobby milam]

Resale could be an issue if that were ever an option. I see home made kits for sale all the time cheap and they nevvet seem to sell around here. Look at one of the manufacturer's that you mentioned with complete machines, you can't seemto find a user one that lasts very long after being listed.

I've about decided with mine that if it doesn't make enough money to buy a stinger then ill keep what I have as then it would be a waste of money. I have a goal and a plan that I am pretty sure will be able to use my existing cnc to pay for the stinger

[Jerome Stanek]

It is sounding like some of these people are buying a machine to fail and resell it. With a lower cost machine that is in the $3000 price range and you get back 50% that would cost $1500 but with a machine like a stinger $8000 and you get back 75% that cost you $2000. But if you parted out the cheaper unit you would most likely get more than the $3000

[Roy Nielsen]

Art,

A nice thing with the CNCRP is that if you later need a larger machine, you could upgrade quite easily to a 4x4 or 4x8 machine by simply replacing the side extrusions and a few more cross pieces (and of course base), longer gear rack, etc.

Ahren @ CNCRP has provided great customer service to me, from helping answer specific questions when I was designing and building mine (that was before he had his own full lines...he has been expanding his offerings quite steadily) to same or next day shipping on orders.

Roy

[Keith Outten]

The wonderful properties that aluminum provides has a place. The same can be said for other types of metal and of course I should include wood in the mix as well because all of these materials have been used to fabricate machines in one fashion or another.

CNC Routers are best built on a rock solid frame and in this case steel or cast iron are the best materials. Even the slow CNC machines are fast compared to a hand held router and the forces involved increase quickly as speeds increase. The fact that a CNC machine not only moves fast but it has to change directions quickly as well, this is where you will see with your own eyes what you have under the hood so to speak. Day to day machining won't place an abnormal amount of stress on a particular frame but certain operations will and that is when you realize whether you have selected the best material for your machine.

I ran two almost identical ShopBot PRT Alpha routers for several years. My ShopBot at home had a PC Router motor with steel channel rails, it was about two years older than the one in the sign shop at CNU which had a spindle and the newer aluminum rails. There was a considerable difference in the two machines even though the frames were nearly identical in every other aspect. The spindle in the ShopBot at CNU was much heavier than the PC Router in my machine at home and the aluminum rails were a far cry from being as rigid as the steel channel rails.

I can put down my PC 3.25 HP hand geld router and pick up my much smaller 1 HP Colt trim router in the blink of an eye. But I can't upgrade the PC router in my Stinger II to a five HP spindle and expect the machine to be able to handle the increase in weight. The gantry really isn't designed to move and change direction as quickly as I expect it to with the smaller and lighter router motor.

My point is that although upgrades are possible there is a limit based on the design of the machine and part of the equation is based on mass. Heavier frames provide not only an increase in strength but mass as well. Take a very heavy 5 HP spindle and send it to the opposite end of your table at high speeds and put the brakes on real quick just to see if your frame can handle the sudden change in momentum. A manufactured machine takes these and a whole lot of other issues into consideration, a home built machine might as well but it really depends on how much experience the designer has under his belt and how many machines he has designed that have been built and are in service.

Nothing I have said is news to anyone here however a decision to purchase one CNC machine over another is a complex one that is too often influenced by the cost over machine performance. This is not such a bad mistake when you buy a band saw that fails to meet your expectations but it can be a disastrous mistake when the costs involved are much much higher.

Every CNC manufacturer wants to develop and sell a low cost CNC machine and every one of them has found the bottom price point that they cannot go below and provide a machine that an owner won't curse they day they wrote them a check.

So, here is my advice! Spend the time to find out what specifications you need in a machine that will do the job you need to do. Then and only then start shopping and if you can't afford the right machine keep saving your money until you can.
.

[Jeff Monson]

CNC Routers are best built on a rock solid frame and in this case steel or cast iron are the best materials. Even the slow CNC machines are fast compared to a hand held router and the forces involved increase quickly as speeds increase. The fact that a CNC machine not only moves fast but it has to change directions quickly as well, this is where you will see with your own eyes what you have under the hood so to speak. Day to day machining won't place an abnormal amount of stress on a particular frame but certain operations will and that is when you realize whether you have selected the best material for your machine.



So Keith, maybe a stupid queston, but can a CNC be put on casters? As long as the base is solid, can it be portable?

[Rich Fennessey]

I have my 4x8 Cobra X3 on heavy duty casters. I'm not sure if it has impacted the quality of my cuts. I have noticed swirls when pocketing corian when the head makes sudden acceleration (ie around corners and such). I'm thinking that casters might be ok if frame is solid since gantry and frame would move together. I should try my corian pocket cuts after taking the castors off some time. Casters were an additional option and I was never warned not to keep them on by anybody.

[Keith Outten]

Jeff,

I would not hesitate to put my Stinger II on casters. The welded frame is strong enough to handle any variation in the height of the wheels without flexing the frame. I slide my machine across the floor whenever I need to move it using a garage jack to lift the front end, I would never have moved my ShopBot for fear of losing the level and having to spend a days work getting it setup again. Cast iron frames would be a different story but welded steel square tubing makes a rock solid frame.
.

[Keith Outten]

Interestingly, Shopbot opensourced their command language a while back:

http://www.opensbp.com/

I am surprised that ShopBot has released the code for their Control software. I used it for many years and it continued to improve as did their machines.
These days I am using WinCNC which has a card that has to be installed in the computer that sends the data to the CNC Control box. One thing I really like about WinCNC is that once a file is sent to the router the computer is free to use for design work or other tasks. I can run both my CNC Router and my Laser Engraver from the same machine and at the same time.
.

[Jerome Stanek]

It has been posted here about the benefits of a welded frame and how that a frame bolted together is not sturdy enough for a cnc. I just watched a show how they make Peterbilt trucks and they are not welded but they travel the highways and stay together.

[Keith Outten]

Jerome,

Your right where trucks are concerned and for many high rise buildings as well. There are times when you need a connection to flex but a CNC machine is not in that category. A truck frame will also be made from a different type of steel than a machine frame.

I can't say that aluminum is never appropriate for CNC frames, it might be just the ticket if it is designed properly. Even so the welding process is a big part of a steel frame and even though you can weld aluminum I haven't seen a CNC frame made from aluminum that was welded. The process of welding aluminum is also more difficult and more expensive than steel.
.

[bobby milam]

By portable, do you mean able to relocate to a different area of the shop or taken to a job site? For moving in the shop, you could always put on a retractable type of caster so it could roll when needed and be stiffer when not needed. If you mean more portable than that, I would be afraid not of the casters but of something else getting a little out of whack with a lot of moving. I have a small shark and the table on it flexes too much for me to want to make it "portable". Moving the table that it is mounted on around the shop has no effect on it.

[bobby milam]

It has been posted here about the benefits of a welded frame and how that a frame bolted together is not sturdy enough for a cnc. I just watched a show how they make Peterbilt trucks and they are not welded but they travel the highways and stay together.


You are trying to compare apples and basketballs. I have taken the posts here to say that there are benefits in having a welded frame for more precision and speed. I don't think anyone has said that aluminum cnc doesn't have it's place. My current machine isn't even aluminum, it is made with high-density polyethylene and bolted together. Is it sturdy enough for a CNC? Yes, as long as I remember it's limitations. It can't support a full sized router, it can't cut at the speeds of an aluminum cnc and isn't as accurate cutting if the material is too hard.


The frame on a truck is designed to have some flex in it. Yes they will stay together and yes they will be capable of driving in a 12 foot lane...well most of the time. You aren't trying to get .001 accuracy out of a truck driving down the road with a full load. There is also a reason that they don't make their frames out of bolted together aluminum.
.

[Art Mann]

Keith,

I agree with your assessment that the stiffness of welded steel is greater than bolted together aluminum extrusions of the same size. On the other hand, I have purchased custom made precision robots that were constructed mostly of aluminum extrusions. The positional accuracy of these robots was similar to CNC router specs. I know that aluminum can be engineered to work well. I just don't know if kit CNC routers are engineered that way. I don't have a good way to find out without building one. My expertise is electronics, not mechanics. :(

[Gary Campbell]

Jerry...
Like Keith says, both truck frames and large building are made to flex. They have both bolted and welded connections that are engineered to provide the flex that will keep those connections from failing as the trucks go down rough roads and the buildings sway from wind and ground vibration. Neither condition applies to a CNC platform. To keep cutting consistent reducing frame flex to the minimum is desirable. Making the frame heavier reduces the amount of vibration that is transferred to the part. These engineering principals have remained unchanged for a long time.
I am sure that you really don't wish to hear this from me. ShopBot has built their machines by design to be light, flexible and easy to move. Nimble in other words. Let me quote Ted Hall from the SB webpage as he explains the ShopBot design decisions.
"From a machining point of view, it is always better to be heavier. Weight provides substance, mass and rigidity. These factors lead to smoother cutting, but these factors also lead to higher costs, because all aspects of the motion system must be beefier. "
"For our full-size tools, the table on which the gantry runs is a bolt-together assembly. It is shipped unassembled to reduce shipping expenses and to allow convenient set-up anywhere in your shop. It would be slightly stiffer if welded as a single component; however, experience has convinced us that it is more practical to have a tool that can be easily readjusted with standard tools if ever knocked out of alignment and whose parts can be readily replaced if ever damaged."
These quoted excerpts are from the ShopBot Tools website that can be read in its entirety here: http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/ShopBotdesign.htm
So as you can see, and you should read the entire article if you have not already, a heavier and stiffer, welded frame will yield in better cuts. I disagree with his word "slightly". I would use "substantially". The lighter duty bolted frames lowers machine and shipping costs for their end-users. Surely with the number of units that ShopBot sells and the reputation they have they are not doing it wrong. You should also note that in most paragraphs those decisions are driven by lowering the cost. Those lower costs may have made it possible for most of us to own a CNC machine.
With that said, there are a number of users that desire or require higher quality of cuts from their machines. They purchase costlier heavier welded frames that are milled and motion is provided on linear rails and bearings. I am one of those.
My 3rd ShopBot (sold but in use til the end of the month) was built with a welded frame, 3/4" billet aluminum parts, linear rails, etc. All of the higher cost items that the machines don't come with out of the box. This machine yields extremely higher quality cuts that either of the other 2 I have owned, but it was built for that purpose. I call it the "mythbuster" machine as it dispels all the "bit deflection" and "accumulated deflection" myths that have been passed around by many unknowing users. My bits don't deflect when taking .100 deep passes in 6061 aluminum at 1.5 to 2 ips. With a ShopBot. Welded frame, linear rails, 4 by 4 weighs almost double what a 4 by 8 PRS does. It's simple, a heavier, welded frame yields higher quality cuts at faster speeds. I can prove it and it not brand specific. Buy heavier, higher grade, more expensive parts and the machine cuts better.
"From a machining point of view, it is always better to be heavier" (Ted Hall) I rest my case.

[bobby milam]

Keith,

I agree with your assessment that the stiffness of welded steel is greater than bolted together aluminum extrusions of the same size. On the other hand, I have purchased custom made precision robots that were constructed mostly of aluminum extrusions. The positional accuracy of these robots was similar to CNC router specs. I know that aluminum can be engineered to work well. I just don't know if kit CNC routers are engineered that way. I don't have a good way to find out without building one. My expertise is electronics, not mechanics. :(

Have you decided what you are going to be doing with it? It seems that this thread has made some think that the aluminum isn't a good machine. I believe that it is. My shark does a good job as long as I use it appropriately. I want a machine to put into heavy use as more of a production line type of work. If it is going to make me money then I want to buy the best that I can possibly get within my budget. Maybe you might be a candidate to go with a smaller machine to start with, see if you are satisfied and even need a larger table. If so then either build onto it or sell it and upgrade once it has made you the money necessary to get one of your other machines.

That is what I am doing right now. when I upgrade, it is going to be because my shark has made the money to purchase the new machine. If I can't make enough money off of it to do it, I probably don't need to invest more money into this venture.

[Art Mann]

Maybe you are right about buying a "learning" machine. I honestly don't know where this is going to lead. I can say I am not looking for a full time job using it. If I do buy a learning machine, I think the kit built alternative is a good one. For the price of a Shark Pro Plus HD 2, or a Shopbot desktop, I can build a machine with much greater capacity, beefier construction and faster advertised cutting speeds. My head is just spinning from all the good (but sometimes conflicting) information! I can say that, due to the sale of some unused recreational vehicles, I now have sufficient funds and plan to buy something soon. I gotta see Camaster first, even if I decide it is too expensive as a start, because I am so close.

[bobby milam]

I think you are on the right track. I'd buy a kit before the shark also. Can get more for the money and accessories like the touch pad can be made by yourself instead of $90. I wish I had taken time in investigating options instead of jumping in blindly.

[Roy Nielsen]

It seems that this thread has made some think that the aluminum isn't a good machine.

Good thing nobody has thus far brought up how well carefully built wood frame Solsylva machines can do, to include light aluminum work. If interested, watch Alex Crane's Youtube videos cutting guitar body from wood and an aluminum part, plus others, as examples.

Art,

I still think you have some research to do. Again, I highly recommend spending some days on the CNCZone DIY build forums to get a better feel for the technology. It is good that at this point you realize you don't know everything and are asking the right questions and weighing against what you realistically think you'd like to accomplish. I've seen a lot of build logs started by people who think they know way more than they do; usually those never get beyond the design stage.

I firmly believe that the CNCRP 24x48 is an excellent choice and one that you could inexpensively and easily grow to a "full-size" machine yourself. You may want to investigate the recommendation for NEMA34 stepper motors versus much less expensive NEMA23 setup--looks like ~$1K difference. If you do determine you truly need and want the NEMA34s, then you may want to also investigate using servo motors rather than steppers for improved reliability. I've seen a lot of discussions about 34s being slower than well chosen 23s at the same gearing/resolution, something you would better understand than I given your background.

My machine's gantry is probably about 1/2 to 1/3 the weight of the CNCRP's, but I can reliably rapid at 840 IPM while temporarily using lower capacity resistors in line with the steppers (I did hit 1200 IPM while tuning my settings, but it was just too much for a mid-size machine and it was getting some errors/locks--the limiting factor, I believe, was the controlling computer, a dual-core Atom CPU). For reference, I'm using dual CNCRP rack and pinions for my X direction with 381 oz-in steppers, 48V power supply, essentially the same stepper drivers as used in the Gecko G540 box, and 2.5K Ohm resistors (versus 3.5K optimal--trying to keep heat down until I can properly heat sink the drivers). Rapids speeds are nice to position the router (and brag about), but probably won't make a whole lot of difference on artistic/intricate/small jobs where the head doesn't move far "in the air" during a particular job; different story for large jobs where the head has to reposition long distances over large material. The cutting speeds I choose are much slower, I'm not sure I've ever set a job to run at over 150-200 IPM for "generic" straight cuts mainly due to the size of my jobs, experience level, and not wanting to break bits. Acceleration is usually much more a contributing factor for smaller/artistic/intricate jobs than IPM; for instance, when cutting lithophanes, I've never seen the IPMs go over 100 and usually are under 50 during the job due to the constant up/down Z movement that causes the X or Y to need to slow down.

Roy

[bobby milam]

I almost mentioned wooden machines in my post but the way this thread has gotten I felt that it would be like throwing gasoline on the fire so I left well enough alone. Now you are responsible for the next 20 pages arguing the merit of wood. LOL

[Roy Nielsen]

I also like to stir up bee nests from time to time. And one time I tugged on Superman's cape.

[Keith Outten]

If you stay within the operating parameters of your machine as it was designed your aluminum, wood or plastic frame will be just fine. The problem is that after awhile many people will try to machine a project that is way outside of their machine specifications.

Although you can haul two tons on a half ton pickup truck it is unwise to do so, the same type of situation happens all to often with CNC machines. If you know upfront that heavy machining jobs are in your future buy a machine to handle big jobs. Shopping for a machine based on price doesn't make sense whether you are a professional or a hobby woodworker.

[Gene Crain]

shopbot pr

[Jerome Stanek]

shopbot pr

And who says a bolt together unit can't do the job. Nice work Gene. Wish I didn't sell my PR after the upgrade it was so accurate and the resolution was incredible.

[james mcgrew]

Hummm Let me see,, heavy stable frame, High resale value, Massive forum and owner support, Stable long term controller, non proprietary parts, yea they got that,, oh, about the frame thingy !! well being as happy as I am with my Harley Davidsons and my John Deere tractor I am stickin with the IRON !! and as always Good Job Gene !! 266865266864266866266867266868 this X3 sold at 5 years old for 85% of original value !!266869 I guess I should mention the 24 or so owners who came to camaster after owning the "Other Machine" yet 0 (Zero) going the other way !!

[Jerome Stanek]

What model John Deere Tractor do you have I also have one

[Ross Moshinsky]

Hummm Let me see,, heavy stable frame, High resale value, Massive forum and owner support, Stable long term controller, non proprietary parts, yea they got that,, oh, about the frame thingy !! well being as happy as I am with my Harley Davidsons and my John Deere tractor I am stickin with the IRON !! and as always Good Job Gene !! 266865266864266866266867266868 this X3 sold at 5 years old for 85% of original value !!266869 I guess I should mention the 24 or so owners who came to camaster after owning the "Other Machine" yet 0 (Zero) going the other way !!


That's all lovely but I couldn't get that machine through my door and I don't think I could make much money with a machine in the crate sitting in a parking space, could I?

People have different wants/needs. They have different budgets. They are able to take different levels of financial risk.

[james mcgrew]

Well aware of different levels of need and risk,, this Stinger we purchased to make sink holes for the Amazon dot com distribution facilities, each had 12 RR with 12 sinks each plus each had a trash hole. 288 precision cuts,, this machine took the "Sting" out of cost and wel paid for it self on the 2 facilities (578 holes at 30.00 a pop !) and it will fit thru a door !

[Art Mann]

I hate to hear your business is in the toilet! :)

[Jerome Stanek]

I thought you bought your first one in 2008 used.

[james mcgrew]

Camaster 408 (BillHog) new in 1998, purchased used for 12.500 november 07,, Paid for it self by Jan 30 2008, purchased the X3 new in july of 08 and was paid in advance Cash with money made from the 408,l Machine is still in use in a sign shop in Pennsacola FLA