So how good is the PM-VII

[Tony Wilkins]

I ask this because it has just about swayed me on several things I need.

There's a lot of tools I need to fill in. My chisel quiver consists of 1/4" and 3/4" Blue Spruce bench, 6mm Massahige oire nomi (which I don't particularly like the feel of), and a 1/4" LN Sash Mortice (whose handle I love and really got me looking at the LN bench chisels).

I have and like wood bench planes but I want to give the more common metal body planes a try. Currently I have a non-stanley #5 that I've been trying to fix since the mail broke the handle. Figured out it wasn't a very good model to begin with.

So there's two opportunities to try the new steel. I know Rob is very active (and I invite him to chime in either by PM or on this thread). To be perfectly honest, before this steel I was leaning towards Lie Nielsen due to aesthetics and 'less innovative' designs.

Oh, and the next tool I'm saving up for is a large router plane and am still going back and forth between LN and LV.

So, should the PM-VII sway me ;) ?

TIA,
Tony

[Sam Takeuchi]

Have you done search? There has been quite a few posts about the new Veritas chisels, reviews, opinions and steel. While I'm not saying not to make new post, but I think there are wealth of information already present and that you can gather information that answers your questions and more.

[Jim Koepke]

Are the blades for the LV router plane available in PM-VII?

We all have our own criteria to drive our decisions on which tools we buy and use. Mine is based on which tool feels best in my hands or how it makes me feel.

For instance, almost all of my bench planes are of the Bailey design. Of course there are better planes by other makers and even the Stanley Bedrock design has an advantage on the Bailey design. None of that matters to me as the look and feel of the Bailey design appeals to my senses. They also are some great planes for everyday use.

My suggestion would be to try and get a chance to handle each of the routers and see if one feels better in your hands than the other.

This advise is also the same when it comes to chisels.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

It depends on what's important to you. The PM-V11 steel appears to hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel or A2 steel, but you may find that the handle and balance of another brand of chisel suites you better. If so, you have to make a trade-off decision.

Mike

[Oh, and to address your issue on the large router plane, I like the LV router plane. But either will work well. I will advise strongly against the LN small router plane. It's very difficult to adjust and the screw holding the blade in place is difficult to get tight enough without a screwdriver. I had one, hated it, and sold it.]

[Let me add two comments about the LN chisels (I have a set of them). (1) While socket chisels have their advantages, the sockets on the LN chisels are too "perfect" and the handles don't stay in well. The older socket chisels have very rough sockets which tend to grab the handle and keep it in the socket. The LN socket is machined smooth. If you get the LN chisels you may have to add something to keep the handles in the sockets (people have suggested shellac - I used epoxy). It's irritating and dangerous to have a blade fall out when you lift the chisel by the handle. (2) I find the standard LN handles too small, and replaced all the handles on mine.]

[Chris Griggs]

It depends on what's important to you. The PM-V11 steel appears to hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel or A2 steel, but you may find that the handle and balance of another brand of chisel suites you better. If so, you have to make a trade-off decision.

Mike

[Oh, and to address your issue on the large router plane, I like the LV router plane. But either will work well. I will advise strongly against the LN small router plane. It's very difficult to adjust and the screw holding the blade in place is difficult to get tight enough without a screwdriver. I had one, hated it, and sold it.]

I pretty much would echo this exactly, and add that in addition PMV11 has more flexibility than A2 when it comes to sharpening angles. If you keep all your chisel at 30+ degrees that matters less, but if you want to keep one or two at 25 degrees the steel choice might be a bigger deal.

I guess I'd say if you find both comfortable the steel is probably a good deciding factor. I think both are very comfortable well-balanced chisels, but if you happened to find one very comfortable the other uncomfortable I think comfort would trump steel for me. You definitely want to own tools the feel good to use.

And oh yeah, I too LOVE my LV router plane, but like Mike said, either will work.

[Rob Lee]

Hi Tony -

The only thing I'll contribute here - is that anything you buy from us, and decide you don't like, can be returned and we refund your shipping. You can't really lose trying anything....

Cheers -

Rob
(who already "voted" for PM-V11 with a massive investment in R&D, and duplication of stock!)

[Tony Wilkins]

Thanks for the input. Sam, I did do the search and wanted to put my own little twist on it rather than resurrect one of those threads. I'm also asking at the same time about the ergonomics of the tools (especially planes). So I'll take this opportunity to throw this out - I'm trying to decide which bench plane to try - either the 5 1/4 or 6. Not to go too much into it but I came back from Iraq with a condition a lot like MS so some days I'm really weak and overall weaker than I should be. That's part of the reason I started in wood planes.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the input. Sam, I did do the search and wanted to put my own little twist on it rather than resurrect one of those threads. I'm also asking at the same time about the ergonomics of the tools (especially planes). So I'll take this opportunity to throw this out - I'm trying to decide which bench plane to try - either the 5 1/4 or 6. Not to go too much into it but I came back from Iraq with a condition a lot like MS so some days I'm really weak and overall weaker than I should be. That's part of the reason I started in wood planes.

Functionally I tend to use a 6 as small jointer, and since I'm not making dining tables and beds (or haven't yet) that means a 6 touches just about everything I do. I like 5 1/4's, but functionally they feel more like a smoother or small panel plane, generally I would feel that a 5 1/4 isn't the plane to straighten most things. So it depends on what you want to do. Smallish but very functional jointer No 6...long narrow smoother 5 1/4. The modern 6s do get pretty heavy though, not super heavy but they are pretty good sized chunks of steel, so you might do well to go vintage if you are concerned about the weight when your condition acts up. OR if you are happy with wood planes just stick with wood planes

(BTW: for the 5 1/4 I'm referring to the standard bailey sized one. I've never used the LV 5 1/4W so perhaps that's a different animal)

[Sam Takeuchi]

You are never going to get good answer for ergonomics, because it's so personal. Even if you didn't have any health issues, everyone would have different answer and you are not going to be even one step closer. I think you just have to try the tools before you can make your decision and Rob already said you can try their tools at no risk. You should take up on that kind of opportunities.

If you are thinking about Stanley #6, it's quite heavy. I would think Veritas #6 would be just as heavy, if not slightly more. Stanley 5-1/4 is an odd plane, blade being 1-3/4", it might be little too light duty if you want to use that for rough planing. LV 5-1/4W has a 2" blade, and personally I think it's more balanced as far as functionality goes. The thing about Veritas planes is that the handles are more upright than Stanley, Lie-Nielsen and others. Some people like it, some don't. You can't really make judgment call if you haven't touched it.

If ergonomics is a priority for you, then the steel doesn't matter. If you have health issues that prevents comfortable grip or activity using tools unless handle shapes are right for you, you are not going to benefit from characteristics of steel if it's not right for you. Personally I would recommend something like socket chisel where you can make and shape handles perfect for your own need.

[Charlie Stanford]

It depends on what's important to you. The PM-V11 steel appears to hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel or A2 steel, but you may find that the handle and balance of another brand of chisel suites you better. If so, you have to make a trade-off decision.

Mike

[Oh, and to address your issue on the large router plane, I like the LV router plane. But either will work well. I will advise strongly against the LN small router plane. It's very difficult to adjust and the screw holding the blade in place is difficult to get tight enough without a screwdriver. I had one, hated it, and sold it.]

[Let me add two comments about the LN chisels (I have a set of them). (1) While socket chisels have their advantages, the sockets on the LN chisels are too "perfect" and the handles don't stay in well. The older socket chisels have very rough sockets which tend to grab the handle and keep it in the socket. The LN socket is machined smooth. If you get the LN chisels you may have to add something to keep the handles in the sockets (people have suggested shellac - I used epoxy). It's irritating and dangerous to have a blade fall out when you lift the chisel by the handle. (2) I find the standard LN handles too small, and replaced all the handles on mine.]

They only hold an edge longer if kept at 30* or higher and not that much longer. They're choppers. It's that simple.

[Chris Griggs]

They only hold an edge longer if kept at 30* or higher and not that much longer. They're choppers. It's that simple.

Not in my experience or anyone else who has given them a fair evaluation. Mine holds significantly longer then good vintage steel at 25 degrees...and by good vintage steel I mean my two buck parers that I love and my Stanley 750 that has fantastic steel. I don't know about less than that (like 20) but it was immediately apparent to me that they hold much longer at 25. Not that that means the regular old HC steel isn't still good. I love the steel in my 750 and my bucks, but there is no question to me that the PMV11 is equally as fine and holds an edge longer at 25 degrees.

Anyway, Tony can either borrow mine or order one from LV at no risk and see for himself what is true.

[Mike Henderson]

Not in my experience or anyone else who has given them a fair evaluation. Mine holds significantly longer then good vintage steel at 25 degrees...and by good vintage steel I mean my two buck parers that I love and my Stanley 750 that has fantastic steel. I don't no about less than that (like 20) but it was immediately apparent to me that they hold much longer at 25. Not that that means the regular old HC steel isn't still good. I love the steel in my 750 and my bucks, but there is no question to me that the PMV11 is equally as fine and holds an edge longer at 25 degrees.

Anyway, I'm sending my 1" PMV11 chisel to Tony to try so he'll get to see for himself.
Charlie keeps repeating the same mantra that PM-V11 steel is no good but he has not offered any test results to back up his claims. I'm starting to think maybe he's just a troll on this subject, attempting to get people stirred up. He seems to have picked me for some reason. Every time I post about PM-V11 he jumps in and says the steel is no good.

Mike

[Chris Griggs]

Charlie keeps repeating the same mantra that PM-V11 steel is no good but he has not offered any test results to back up his claims. I'm starting to think maybe he's just a troll on this subject, attempting to get people stirred up. He seems to have picked me for some reason. Every time I post about PM-V11 he jumps in and says the steel is no good.

Mike

He jumps on anyone who says anything good about LV products, japanese tools, and any sharpening media other than arkansas stones or sandpaper. Its too bad too, because when he's not attempting to get a rise out of folks he actually gives really good advice, but you need to filter through the troll goo to find the good stuff. Be nice if he was able to share his experience without metaphorically defacating on anyone who approaches their woodworking hobby differently than he does. I'm tired of wading through troll droppings.

[David Weaver]

Derek proved that they work at 25 degrees just fine in stuff harder than anything we're likely to work short of hickory. It's not really much in question.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Nice facelift David!

[David Weaver]

Nice facelift David!

The last avatar was Harley Race. I don't think anyone will say "is that really you?" about the current one :)

Every time I look at it, though, I have lines from Money for Nothing going through my head.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The last avatar was Harley Race. I don't think anyone will say "is that really you?" about the current one :)

Just goes to show, I thought that was a picture of you. Guess I don't follow Yankee wrestling....

[Chris Griggs]

The last avatar was Harley Race. I don't think anyone will say "is that really you?" about the current one :)

Every time I look at it, though, I have lines from Money for Nothing going through my head.

I have to be honest with you David. I really do picture you as Harley Race now even though I know its not you. Every time we discuss straight razors this image pops into my head of you as Harley Race carefully using the straight to shape the edges of those glorious mutton chops. No joke, I actually have that image in my head, in spite of the fact that I know its not actually you.

[Ryan Baker]

Every time I look at it, though, I have lines from Money for Nothing going through my head.

As soon as I saw it, I did too. Now I'll be singing that all day ...

[Harold Burrell]

I have to be honest with you David. I really do picture you as Harley Race...

Seriously? Harley Race wears David Weaver pajamas...

265283

[David Weaver]

Nice. I hope I never meet harley race after he's found a picture like that, I'm sure he could kick my can across town and back even though I hear the years of wrestling took their toll on him and he's not as mobile any longer.

Genuine tough guy in an industry full of actors and jobbers, though. Always appreciate the guys who are the real deal.

[Adam Cruea]

Derek proved that they work at 25 degrees just fine in stuff harder than anything we're likely to work short of hickory. It's not really much in question.

I have found that A2, and even D2, gets destroyed by hickory. My steels last longer working jatoba than they do with hickory. I whack a few dovetails in jatoba and I can still kind of pare with my chisels. . .I whack a few dovetails in hickory and I might as well throw the chisels at a brick wall it seems.

Anyway, if ergonomics is your big thing, like someone else said, I would try going with socket chisels so you can make your own handles. For a fair price, the new Stanley Sweethearts are not a bad chisel, minus the 4 pounds of lacquer Stanely throws on them for shipping.

If you could, put your location in your profile and you might have some Creekers that will let you borrow and try things.

Also, just from my perspective, I ended up going with the LV router plane. What did it for me was the blades you can get for it outnumbered the LN plane, not to mention, the LV router plane is supposed to work with the old Stanley blades. Also, just an FYI, the new updated LV router plane I got has a collar magnet that keeps the blade from dropping when you loosen it. I don't know if the LN has the same, but it's a nice feature to keep in my opinion.

[David Weaver]

Hickory is bad stuff. Hickory and black locust exist to make us think that maple isn't so bad to work by hand.

You'll need to put a tiny steep microbevel on a chisel to work it (which doesn't matter for working hickory, it won't lead to crushing of fibers or anything, but it will save you from looking at a mangled edge)

[Chris Hachet]

Derek proved that they work at 25 degrees just fine in stuff harder than anything we're likely to work short of hickory. It's not really much in question.I got a chance to test drive these new chisels when Andrew P and I got together for the Columbus Ohio get together. I am going to be a (much) poorer man very soon....While LV/Veritas stuff doesn't have the prestige perhaps the Lie Nielson stuff does....it sure does work fantastic when it comes to cutting actual wood in my workshop.

[Chris Hachet]

Hickory is bad stuff. Hickory and black locust exist to make us think that maple isn't so bad to work by hand.

You'll need to put a tiny steep microbevel on a chisel to work it (which doesn't matter for working hickory, it won't lead to crushing of fibers or anything, but it will save you from looking at a mangled edge)Actually I have no trouble at all working hard maple by hand....

[David Weaver]

It's a relative issue. It's not that you can't work it, it's that you can work something else twice as fast when it comes to something like rough dimensioning boards. Smoothing and sawing and things of the like really aren't an issue, it's just the dimensioning of the wood because you can't take as much at a time as you can with cherry or soft maple. That time factor becomes an issue when you're working 30 or 40 board feet of it for a large project.

Plus it rewards your efforts by being generally uninteresting unless it's figured.

[Mike Holbrook]

David I hope you are happy, I just wasted 30 minuets on youtube, starting with your link on my other post!!!! I can't get that out of my head either, guess I have to start humming yellow submarine, which may be worse!

Our OP could order a PM-V11 and a Koyamaichi, Japanese chisel, both available through Lee Valley, and see which he likes. I am about to do that very thing. Many of the Japanese chisels fill gaps between Imperial tool sizes anyway, or that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. The Koyamaichi chisels seem to test about as tough as the new LV chisels and may be the only competition in the tough chisel category in that price range.

I made some wooden planes. I sort of cheated by using parts I bought from Steve Knight before he closed his plane making business. It is a fun project that helps build some skills with detailed hand tools.

[glenn bradley]

but if you want to keep one or two at 25 degrees the steel choice might be a bigger deal.

Chris speaks true. I have a few PMV-11 items that are for 25* use. Edge retention at the lower angle is what drove me to try them out.

[Frederick Skelly]

Rob, just a quick aside - do you take back the tool even if the buyer has already sharpened it? (That would surprise me, but I thought Id ask since youre here.)

[Chris Friesen]

Actually I have no trouble at all working hard maple by hand....

For me it's not so much that I have trouble with it, but that it's *notably* harder to work with than something like cherry. And visible joinery (dovetails, for example) where both pieces are maple are not forgiving at all.

[Gary Muto]

Every time I look at it, though, I have lines from Money for Nothing going through my head.

Same here...

[Jim Neeley]

"Rob, just a quick aside - do you take back the tool even if the buyer has already sharpened it? (That would surprise me, but I thought Id ask since youre here.)"

Whether or not they WILL do it, I question the fairness quotient unless it was being returned due to the failure of the freshly sharpened edge, a defect that didn't reveal itself until after sharpening or it failing to live up to a claim they've made.

I've heard of people going to places like HD, buying 4 or 5 routers with every intention of returning all of them except perhaps one. By the time the BBS handles the return the whole transaction is a major money-loser, through no fault of their own.

Others buy a tool, use it to do what they wanted to accomplish and then return it for full credit. These companies have very generous return policies in order to ensure people don't get screwed. People who abuse their generosity lead to those policies being change such that they may damage those with good intent.

In the early 90's our local Sears store (Anchorage) ended up putting up signs near their camcorders indicating that camcorders were expressly excluded from their "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money refunded" unless the item was defective. When buying a camcorder I inquired about the sign and was told Sears was selling record number of camcorders but that over 90% of them were coming back in a couple weeks, working fine but returned because the people "weren't satisfied" with them. The salesman confided that when they got the customers drivers license to process the return they were inevitably from out of state or country... tourists who bought one at the beginning of their vacation and returned it for full credit at the end.

I'm sure you're not of this type and hope you don't take offense.. they are what I call "bottom feeders", and that's being polite. <g>

Jim

[Ryan Griffey]

I'm sure the new LV chisels are great. But LV sells too much Chinese Junk for my liking. I put my money where my mouth is when it comes to USA products. LN gets my money.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I'm sure the new LV chisels are great. But LV sells too much Chinese Junk for my liking. I put my money where my mouth is when it comes to USA products. LN gets my money.

Well, LV is a retailer of tools (garden, kitchen and woodworking) and large percentage of reasonably affordable products made in China these days, it's hard not to carry Made in China items. LV and LN are not even in the same category as far as their business go. LN being a manufacturer that does direct sales, LV's main thing is in retail. Veritas tools being their R&D and production arm, the number of products produced under Veritas brand is small compare to the rest of inventory. Besides, if made in USA is your concern, then LV being a Canadian, that's already a strike out, isn't it?

[Tony Wilkins]

I was going to get one to try, especially with the customer service offered. I'm afraid however, since it's considered untoward to actually use that service, that I'm not going to be able to.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Why? Because someone wrote an example of people abusing the service to fulfill temporary needs? Come on, you know that's not the same as company offering "try our products!". If you are getting chisels just so you can use it and finish whatever you plan to do, but want money back because you are done with that said product, then yeah, I hope you won't make LV some sort of rental tool company at their expense. But with every intention to buy, and genuinely wanting to try the products, why should you think taking an advantage of such system is a bad thing?

[Tony Wilkins]

I guess I would just feel guilty if I didn't like it. I'm not sure I'd send it back even if I did. The comments just reinforced that.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I would too if I ever had to send anything back to LV. So far nothing ever gone back there from me. If you feel guilty, you can sell it here or on eBay. You might lose some money on the whole thing, at least you can do that without being guilty. But either way, you have your preference and needs dictated by health issues, I think you need to be extra diligent in getting your hands on tools to try. Like I said previously, no steel or material matter if it doesn't fit your needs.

[Danny Burns]

"Rob, just a quick aside - do you take back the tool even if the buyer has already sharpened it? (That would surprise me, but I thought Id ask since youre here.)"

Jim

http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/HelpShippingReturns.aspx?pb=1#ReturnExchangeForm

The best customer service bar none.

"If, for any reason, you are not completely satisfied, just return your purchase within 3 months by ground mail. You can choose to either exchange the product or receive a complete refund (including our regular shipping charges); we will also refund your return parcel post costs at the ground mail rate. Returns can also be processed at any of our retail store locations."

As a customer after doing business with LV for over 29 years, not one single complaint about them .

[David Weaver]

LV offers that policy as a requirement, but I have seen Rob before mentioning that the cost of "sampling" via a return policy is extremely steep. I think they offer it because we demand it, but that doesn't mean we should abuse it because it drives up costs - especially when they start paying shipping both ways.

I have only seen two people say "try a few and keep the one you like", one is Joel from TFWW and the other is Alex Gilmore (who sells very expensive natural stones, and trial of them is a valuable thing since you can't really go to his shop if you're not local).

Today is the first time I've ever seen criticism of LV for selling too much Chinese stuff. Pretty much everything LN sells made in the US, LV also has made in the US or canada (or perhaps the UK). LN can sell mostly domestic manufacture stuff because their catalog is pretty limited.

[Chris Griggs]

LV offers that policy as a requirement, but I have seen Rob before mentioning that the cost of "sampling" via a return policy is extremely steep. I think they offer it because we demand it, but that doesn't mean we should abuse it because it drives up costs - especially when they start paying shipping both ways.

Indeed, they discourage "sampling" (Rob and Joel debated this once: found the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?150777-Which-dovetail-saw-opinion-from-those-who-knows/page2). I link to this because I think it really gives insight into how the retailer view their policies.

Of course, they'll take back even if one is sampling, but LVs policy is intended to be a "good faith" policy. As in they want you to buy it if you think its something you want but have some doubts, and are happy to take it back if it turns out its not for you. BUT, they would not want you too say buy an LN shoulder plane, an LV shoulder plane, and a Clifton shoulder plane, with the intent of only keeping one. Only the purchaser can decide if they are purchasing that tool in good faith. I've personally not met anyone who abused our little niche market's awesome return policys, but I'm sure their are people who do and like Dave said that drives up cost for everyone.

[Hilton Ralphs]

So the assumption is that all Chinese stuff is junk whilst anything they sell made in the USA is good?

Heck , sixty years ago Japan was a swear word but now their goods are revered. Freud from Italy, Wera from Germany, KI chisels from Japan, Narex chisels from the Czech Republic - all part of the Axis powers.

Makes you think.

[David Weaver]

The stuff that was exported to the US was junk. That's quite often the case with China, but there's definitely truth in the fact that there are quality good sold in China and made in China. Woodwell tool company is a perfect example. You can get a HSS iron plane made of ebony or some sort of asian tropical wood (Depending on what they have) cheaper than you can get either the western iron equivalent or a dry tropical 12/4 QS blank or rift sawn to make a plane. And they give you both and turn them into a plane.

My chinese diamond hones from Best sharpening are quality goods, but they cost almost the same as western goods.

I'm a fan of some chinese products. I'm not a fan of US retailers replacing US products with chinese products and leaving the price relatively unchanged (but LV doesn't do that. Their imported goods are inexpensive compared to the domestics).

[Peter Pedisich]

Lee-Valley has really done a terrific job, in my opinion, noting in their catalog when an item is made in Canada/USA or if it is imported. This is helpful as some prefer the domestic made stuff for the quality, and some for the boost to the domestic labor force. Can't ask for more than that, they offer a wide range of goods at fair prices, and give lots of clear info about them, and a terrific return policy.

[Niels Cosman]

FWIW: I've been using the 1", and 3/4" quite a bit for several weeks now and I have several initial impressions.

1:They appear to have superb edge retention, like 100% so far (chopping and pairing)
2: Fastest initial setup of any chisel I have ever bought new.
3: Design/erganomics are very good. Well balanced and very light. A great chisel for paring and cleaning up mortices. I still prefer the slightly shorter blade handle shape of my LN's for chopping.

Aesthetically I am not in love with them, but they bring the A-game in function and quality. They are total winners and I suspect they will become my go to general purpose set.

[Frederick Skelly]

I need to clarify my question to Rob Lee and my intent. I agree its bottom feeding, etc to buy something just to use it and return it. I didnt mean to imply I think thats acceptable behavior. I apologize if anyone took it that way. I intended only to understand LV's policy, not to intentionally take advantage of them.
Fred

[Harold Burrell]

I need to clarify my question to Rob Lee and my intent. I agree its bottom feeding, etc to buy something just to use it and return it. I didnt mean to imply I think thats acceptable behavior. I apologize if anyone took it that way. I intended only to understand LV's policy, not to intentionally take advantage of them.
Fred

I, for one, thought you made your intentions quite clear from the get-go.

[Ryan Griffey]

Well, LV is a retailer of tools (garden, kitchen and woodworking) and large percentage of reasonably affordable products made in China these days, it's hard not to carry Made in China items. LV and LN are not even in the same category as far as their business go. LN being a manufacturer that does direct sales, LV's main thing is in retail. Veritas tools being their R&D and production arm, the number of products produced under Veritas brand is small compare to the rest of inventory. Besides, if made in USA is your concern, then LV being a Canadian, that's already a strike out, isn't it?


I like Canadian products. I don't like all of the other stuff that LV sells. LN could sell all of that crap if they wanted to. It is a business choice. I know that LV makes more money on all of that junk. But they don't get my money anymore. I've got some LV stuff that is great. But I've watched the giant container loads of junk coming in from overseas and it is disturbing. If possible I purchase stuff locally and I hope that more people will make the same choice.

[Mike Allen1010]

I, for one, thought you made your intentions quite clear from the get-go.



Harold,

Since this thread has exceeded my gnat like attention span, I want to take this opportunity to say I love your new avatar -- big change from your previous hairstyle - or as Rodney Dangerfield said in Caddy shack "it looks good on you", or maybe "did you get a free bowl of soup with that haircut" -- I can remember!

Also Love your tagline "Organized people are just too lazy to look for stuff" - this is exactly what my wife tells me when she can't find her keys for the fifth day in row!

As long as I'm Totally hijacking the thread (shame on me), David Weaver -- great Dire Straits reference with the new avatar-- now totally stuck in my head. So if you're guitar a player, Marc Knopfler or Eric Clapton?

Mike the hijacker

[David Weaver]

When I was younger, I didn't even know who mark knopfler was, but I had a bunch of clapton stuff all the way back to the yardbirds. I was obsessed with Jimmy Page's playing, though, and in high school was in a cover band that did mostly Led Zeppelin covers, as well as some stuff that was popular then (pearl jam, etc). We were never really very good, but we did have good timing and could play a couple of passable sets and play the solos in the covers. The other bands in the school were terrible, though...I mean really bad.

These days, I'd rather hear the mark knopfler kind of stuff, things that sound better when you're playing by yourself. We all wanted to be lead guitarists when I was in school, and traded off, but I'll bet we all spent 90% of our practice time trying to get lead parts down so we could be heroes - everything else was just as a courtesy work for whoever was playing lead or waiting for the singer to can it so we could play the fills and leads. If I started playing more again, I'd want to just play something that was nice-sounding and thoughtful and tasteful without relying on anyone else. Darrell Scott-like stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j57fvO4C9Mo (even though this is paul simon's song, darrell makes it less depressing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lzuOvPfi0Y (starting at 2:20)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNsx_AJJpus

Woodworking has just about killed my guitar playing time-wise, though, along with aging and getting to the point where you realize you're never going to do it for substantial pay because there are people like Darrell Scott around in large numbers and gigs that seemed to pay well at $200 split four ways for a couple of hours when I was a kid seem now like "why would anyone spend hours setting up and tearing down for that kind of money".

Funny thing about mark knopfler, I wouldn't have been able to point him out of a lineup 5 years ago, but a friend of mine from my band (long ago moved to california) called me and he said "you have to check out the mark knopfler strat". not much for signature guitars, but am a big fan of knopfler's style now. That whole "you have to check out knopfler's strat" thing is why I looked him up the other day, saw the video and figured I'd let harley race's picture off the hook, before harley finds me and beats me for using his likeness.

How PM VII fits in that, I don't know. Maybe they'll start making guitar hardware out of it!

[Tony Wilkins]

Or mark knopflers out of it

[dan sherman]

I like Canadian products. I don't like all of the other stuff that LV sells. LN could sell all of that crap if they wanted to. It is a business choice. I know that LV makes more money on all of that junk. But they don't get my money anymore. I've got some LV stuff that is great. But I've watched the giant container loads of junk coming in from overseas and it is disturbing. If possible I purchase stuff locally and I hope that more people will make the same choice.


Made in the USA doesn't mean better, and a lot of times it's a myth, clever marketing, or blind brand loyalty. Take Starrett for example, depending on what you buy from them it could be made in America, Scotland, Brazil, or China. very few things are 100% made in America any more.

[george wilson]

America still is the #1 manufacturing nation in the World.

[Ryan Griffey]

Made in the USA doesn't mean better, and a lot of times it's a myth, clever marketing, or blind brand loyalty. Take Starrett for example, depending on what you buy from them it could be made in America, Scotland, Brazil, or China. very few things are 100% made in America any more.

I respect your statement Dan but I do my research. When Carhartt started making their jeans in Mexico I stopped buying them. Same with Filson. They are a Seattle based company.

I take my own garbage to the dump and I don't see a lot of stuff made in the USA in there. It's mostly overseas junk from chain stores. I don't think things can continue in this direction. Just my opinion. I do like the LV tools that I have.

[Jack Curtis]

Made in the USA doesn't mean better, and a lot of times it's a myth, clever marketing, or blind brand loyalty. Take Starrett for example, depending on what you buy from them it could be made in America, Scotland, Brazil, or China. very few things are 100% made in America any more.

No, not really, but it does mean there are some more jobs for you and/or your neighbors. It also means there's some justification for the prices and there's not that much transportation built into the price. So, yes, I think it means a lot.

[Peter Pedisich]

No, not really, but it does mean there are some more jobs for you and/or your neighbors. It also means there's some justification for the prices and there's not that much transportation built into the price. So, yes, I think it means a lot.

That's it for me right there. I've had Levi's and Carhartt from Mexico that were very durable and well made, but for the past 3 years I buy only Diamond Gusset jeans made in the USA, and I get my 11 year old Rockports resoled by the shoe repair in my town... the cobbler is from Greece and boy does he know what he's doing, he does a great job!

[Stew Hagerty]

Well I finally got my first PM-V11 tool.

It's a 2" iron for my vintage #4 Stanley. I have actually been quite happy with the original blade that came with the plane. Although thin, it took an edge well and took some nice shavings. For figured and other difficult grained wood, I have an ECE Primus 711 Smoother bedded at York Pitch, but the #4 is my go-to Smoothing plane.

Well I've had the PM-V11 iron in my wish list for some time and just decided to take advantage of the free shipping and get it. I unboxed the iron and the chipbreaker ad gave both a quick hone before dropping them into the plane. I use Dan's Oilstones and the honing was surprisingly quick on my both Hard and then Black Arkansas Stones.

All I can say next is WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

After a few quick adjustments, I was taking .001" shavings off of some walnut. I have never been able to get below .003" with it before.

Of course, this is just a first impression. Time will tell about the durability, but I have no doubt that will be just as impressive.

Well done Rob!!!

[george wilson]

I love my NX 60 block plane AND the PM VII blade I bought for it.

[Chris Griggs]

The quality of PMV11 was immediately apparent to me as well...I had expected the difference to be more subtle, but the quality of the material is apparent the first honing and use.

[Jim Koepke]

The Veritas Reproduction spokeshave is my first experience with PM V11. Haven't given it enough work yet to make any substantial claims, but so far is seems to be doing fine.

jtk

[Adam Cruea]

I bought one of the PM-V11 blades and a chipbreaker, hoping to either use it for my hogging #5 plane or my #604 smoother. I put it in my smoother, and I love it. It can take whisper thin shavings.

They are awesome. I've thought about getting one to replace the A2 blade in my #51.

[Tony Wilkins]

I have them in all my planes but one (my LN LA jack) and color me impressed as well. LV has definitely got a winner with this steel.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I bought a PM-V11 block plane replacement blade (never got around to using yet!) and a 1/2" PM-V11 chisel (1/2" or 5/8" maybe).

Love the chisel - at first I couldn't seem to get it sharp enough, but I lowered the angle a bit, grinding back maybe 1/16" and not it takes and holds a terrific edge (cherry, walnut & some white pine, so far). I find the handle to be one of the most comfortable, at least for my size hands and the overall aesthetics one of the nicest looking chisels!

[Tom Vanzant]

I bought a 2-3/8" PM-V11 iron set for my Stanley 4 1/2 and couldn't get it to take a decent shaving, even after honing. It turned out the bevel on the cap iron was not co-planar to the plate... contacted the iron at one corner only.
One phone call to LV led me to "a girl named Sue... how do you do?" and a replacement was in the mail, test-assembled at LV to verify full contact with the iron. The new iron honed up nicely and is on the 4 1/2 at the shooting board.
Sue was a pleasure to deal with. You have a winner there Rob.
Another example of outstanding customer service.
Tom

[Judson Green]

I've got one. Bought it to replace a worn out iron for a Stanley #7, someday if I get a 4½ I'll swap the irons. I like it much better than a A2 iron I have. I'm mostly using vintage irons though. Would like to get a Japanese blue next to satisfy my curiosity.

A few weeks ago I was planing some very hard Hard Maple. The edges on the vintage irons turned (dubbed over) very quickly, not so on the PM-V11. The PM-V11 held its edge and had a nice finish.

[john davey]

If I ever received something from lee valley and was not happy wth it I would just sell it on Craigslist or eBay as the stuff holds its value. Why is it the retailers fault I am unhappy with something that is working prrfectly. Same would go for a tool for one use. I have never sold anything I purchased from LV which speaks to the product. I did sell a cement mixer after one use. Just didn't want to store it and accepted the loss. Obviously not a LV product.

[Jim R Edwards]

I have had mixed results. I bought one for my LVBUS and love it, works beautifully. I also bought one for my apron block plane and have not had very good results. I sharpened it at 25 degrees on a 8000 norton water stone and it took a very nice edge however, when I used it on some maple end grain the edge of the blade started to chip, just like the A2 blade it replaced. Removed the blade and reestablished the edge and it failed again,this time on Alder. I called LV customer service and they suggested to sharpen the blade again and give it a try. I did and had the same results. I called again and they suggested a 30 degree bevel so I tried that and it failed on maple. I estimate that I was able to take about 10 passes before the blade started to chip.

At this point I am using the plane for rough work or where the looks of the surface are not that important. Hopefully after a few sharpening's the edge will stop chipping. I really like the apron plane but have had poor edge retention in A2 and the new PM steel.

I want to emphasize that this is only with my apron block plane, not the BUS. That blade works beautifully on maple, alder, cherry, and poplar.