Koyamaichi questions

[Mike Holbrook]

I imagine Stu or someone at Lee Valley could help me with figuring this out but I would like to hear the preferences of fellow posters too.
I find quite few different types of Koyamaichi chisels on Stu's site but only one at LV. I checked out Derek's post on his Koyamaichis and got further confused when I discovered Derek has chisels that were modified to his specs.

I am specifically interested in 2-3 parring chisles, Usu-nomi? but I also see Umeki-shinogi which are referred to as detail chisels. I am thinking larger sizes 5/8? 1/2-3/4" for cleaning rabbits, dadoes and 1 1/4- 1 1/2 for tenons, making saw lines, general parring of larger areas... The Umeki-Shinogi are described as triangular chisels like the Umeki-nomi I find at Lee Valley. I think the LV chisels are more general purpose, bench chisels and the Umeki-shinogi are designed thinner and lighter for detailed work? I also may be interested in a couple detail chisels for cleaning dovetails, smaller mortises & tenons, getting into corners so I am wondering if the Umeki-shinogi fill this role better than the Umeki-nomi? Then Stu offers a 9mm (3/8") dovetail/fishtail which might do similar clean up work?

[David Weaver]

if you're cleaning rabbets and tenons, and pretty much anything other than tight paring between dovetails, you want usu nomi in my opinion. They will be easier on your fingers by a mile.

the chisels LV has are designed to be struck. the longer shinogi nomi parers are not. Both are fairly light, but the LV chisels won't have a long neck and long handle.

What you prefer would be dependent on what you do. I never clean between tails with a paring chisel, so the two shinogi chisels I've gotten never actually get used. I do use the usu nomi fairly often, and the flat profile makes them both easier to sharpen and more comfortable to use for the thumb on your left hand (as in when you're paring something held in a vise and using two hands on the chisel).

My advise would be if you're into paring, get one or two usu (flat topped parers) to start, pick the sizes based on what you use often now, and if you use bench chisels, you can either buy from LV or check with stu, I think he can get everything KI makes, listed or not. Just depends on who you want to patronize.

[Chris Griggs]

Pretty much what Dave said and that's exactly what I did...got two usu-nomi in sizes I thought I would find the most useful (9mm and 18mm). I use my bench chisels for cleaning in between dovetails and for sliding dovetails do the final cleanup with a router plane so the dovetail profile wasn't important to me, and for what I do with them the comfort of the flat top was more appealing.

The other thing you could do is get one in the flat top and one in the dovetail shape. Like maybe one in the 3-9mm range in the dovetail shape and one in 18mm or larger with the flat top. A few months with just those two would probably give you a really good idea of what you like and don't like.

As far as "detail" chisels go, my choice is just to use a bench chisel with good balance and finely ground side bevels (in my case this is my LV chisels but any chisel that meets that criteria would be a good candidate).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Funny to see this - I was just going to post something along these lines - I had been thinking about picking some Koyamaichi up from Stu, but I've now ended up with this gift certificate to LV, and saw they had some as well. . .

But the chisels at LV (the 60S05 catalog numbers) and the Koyamaichi chisels at TFJ are the same maker? I ought expect the same quality from either, then?

I'm never sure with these things sometimes.

[David Weaver]

Same maker, same quality.

[Mike Holbrook]

Joshua, Koyamaichi apparently makes a large variety of chisels. The chisels I was asking about are designed for parring not striking. The Usu prefix apparently means thin flat blade, unlike the thicker square or triangular blades available in chisels designed to be struck. The Usu chisels have longer handles too. The chisels LV carries are Umeki nomi, triangular blades with metal hoops designed to be struck. I believe the Umeki nomi are still relatively light designs compared to the heavier mortising and heavy striking designs. I believe the Umeki chisels with the triangular blades are good for reaching into corners like the more heavily beveled US bench chisels. But I am already explaining things I don't fully grasp.

From what I am reading I believe the LV Umeki nomi and the new PM-V11 chisels will serve similar functions. Derek posted a review of the new LV chisles and compared them to the Koyamaichi among others. A little research on Derek's site reveals that before the PM-V11 chisels came out Derek believed the Koyamaichi chisels produced a longer lasting, tougher edge by far vs any western chisel. Now it looks like the PM-V11 chisels may take the prize for the most durable edge, although I think the Koyamaichi may still have some performance traits some prefer over the PM-V11. Both are excellent chisels and I plan to try one or two of both.

[Kees Heiden]

You can discuss with Stu how you want them. Usually nomi chisels come with very high lands, which isn't so usefull when paring tight dovetails. But het can arange a special grind of the bevels where the lands come down to a much sharper edge. The rest is still the normal nomi shape. I think you pay a little extra for this service. I am very happy with mine with this special shape in the narrow sizes.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am not sure what high lands refers to? Derek talks about having the shoulders on his modified on his page? The umeki-nomi Lee Valley offers seem to have the triangular blades, shoulders similar to Derek's chisels and they appear to taper to thin edges too. I am wondering if LV's offering is a unique design? I know they often order unique designs from makers. I think oire-nomi is a sort of general classification of chisels and the umeki-nomi Lee Valley sells are a sub class of these chisels. Posters do not seem to reveal exactly what type Japanese dovetail they are using, are most using umeki-nomi like LV sells?

I am thinking about trying a PM-V11 chisel, 3/8 & maybe 3/4 while there is free shipping at Lee Valley. I am also thinking about one or two of the Japanese "dovetail" chisels LV sells: maybe 6mm (3/16) and/or 9mm (5/16) to get those in-between sizes that are hard to find in the US. I am thinking this gives me both to try and I am not seeing a major physical difference in Derek's chisels he ordered from Stu. I have projects starting that might benefit from the hardier steels.

I want to try usu-nomi parring chisels in a little larger sizes, maybe 18mm & 30mm, which I can order from Stu. If I like the umeki-nomi I could order more from Stu.

[David Weaver]

If the chisels at LV carries haven't changed (the koyamaichi dovetail chisels with hoops), they have very delicate sizes already. Derek had some older chisels that KI made and the sides were not as delicate as the ones that LV already gets as standard. Your eyes don't deceive you, those at LV are already set up just like you'll want if you want sharp sided chisels.

The 3/8 V11 chisel and the 9 mm KI dovetail chisel will have you duplicating your efforts somewhat. It looks like the lands on LV chisels are already pretty fine.

Those KI chisels were the second japanese chisels I ever got (After some export only chisels that I sold to a friend long ago). They are excellent - i mean really "this should be illegal in 48 states" excellent compared to most chisels in the same price range, though the narrow ones are a bit of a trick to sharpen - not an impossible trick, just not the mindless task that most routine sharpening is.

[Mike Holbrook]

David, thanks for confirming my suspicions regarding the Japanese chisels. Good point on the similarity between a PM- V11 3/8 and the KI 9mm. Maybe I will go with KI.. 6mm (.236 just under 1/4") and an 18mm (.709 just under 3/4"). I think those sizes match best to the work I am starting too.

Like the new avatar, maybe I need to come up with one.

[David Weaver]

Like the new avatar, maybe I need to come up with one

We've got to install microwave ovens. Custom kitchens, deliveries....

We've got to move these, refridgerators....we've got to move these color TVeeeeeeeeeeeeees...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag (a little trip down memory lane for anyone in their 60s...who remembers MTV getting big by playing music videos).

[Hilton Ralphs]

Still one of my favourite songs but then again my teenage years were in the 80s.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Once again, I forget to look at the names, and started wondering who the new guy posting was. . . . duh.

I find it funny that the straight-razor guy has another less-than-clean-shaven avatar.

[Tony Shea]

Mike,

I understand your interest in getting set up with some KI Japanese chisels, I own a few of the triangular shaped ones myself. But I think if you're going with LV PMV11 chisels than I would re-think the KI triangular shaped chisels. The LV chisels have lands (shoulders) that taper down to almost nothing, they actually can be a bit sharp if you hold the chisel there. They are even finer than "most" Japanese dovetail chisels the KI's included. This is not to say I don't like my KI's but simply that I would rather have gone with regular bench KI's instead. The triangular KI's, as Dave pointed out, are not all that easy to sharpen especially when you get down in size. The LV chisels are actually going to get into tighter places than any of the Japanese triangular chisels especially when you consider how much thinner the LV's are. Instances where you want to clean up the cheeks of a small bridle joint the LV's are going to slide right inside.

Hopefully I've made some sense, kinda rambling as I'm cooking dinner at the same time i'm posting. But I do highly recommend LV PMV11 chisels and think you should start there if you already plan on ordering their chisels. I would save the $ by not getting into the triangular Japanese chisels and eventually look into KI or another good quality Japanese paring chisel or two. This is all my experience with the chisels you are looking at, I own both the LV and KI dovetail chisels. I rarely use my KI dovetail chisels now that I'm set up with LV and LN chisels. But I wouldn't trade any of my Japanese bench and paring chisels for the world, they really are something to behold.

[David Weaver]

You should offer up those KI chisels at a slight discount in the S&S :)

It is a valid point that the triangular shaped japanese chisels are a trick compared to a chisel with a larger cross section and a flat on top.

[David Weaver]

Once again, I forget to look at the names, and started wondering who the new guy posting was. . . . duh.

I find it funny that the straight-razor guy has another less-than-clean-shaven avatar.

Yeah, it's extremely unlikely that would ever grow on my face. I have probably skipped shaving three days in the past year. Always hoping to convert other folks to SR shaving, it's such a joy.

[Steve Bates]

OUCH! That sounds like that would hurt, Dave.

I've got a full beard myself, I usually shave with a SR about once a week. My throat and that little patch just under lower lip.

I've been busy this month, especially the last couple of weeks. I shaved this morning for the first time in a couple of weeks. I noticed much less razor burn. I also stropped the razor on my linen strop before the leather. Not sure that made a difference, more practice will tell.

Learning what SHARP & SMOOTH is about has been most helpful. Not sure if I'm quite there yet, but I'm much better than when I started, thanks to this group.

My two pennies

[Ryan Baker]

Help! Could someone please help me understand the KI shape options? I think I am pretty clear on the usu-nomi options. But for the regular oire-nomi chisels, the differences between the versions is less obvious. Pictures would help a lot here (all of Stu's pictures show the back of the chisel). Let me borrow some text from Stu's page:

"Available as standard in a 'kaku-uchi' (square/box) profile up to 12mm, and 'mentori' (bevelled edge) profile in the larger sizes, these are also available with the square 'kaku-uchi' profile as a no-cost option and in a shinogi/umeki profile, the often mentioned 'dovetail' profile for a small additional cost."

Then in the options for a given chisel, one has the options:
1) Standard 'Oire-nomi' with beveled corners.
2) Isosoles Trapezoid(US)/Trapezium(UK) profile.
3) Shinogi/dovetail profile.

The triangular/shinogi/dovetail profile seems pretty self-explanatory, and is like the LV offering.

The trapezoid profile sounds like a truncated triangle profile (duh, a trapezoid after all), that would still bevel down to very fine lands on the edges, but would have a flat top instead of coming together to a ridge like the triangle profile. Is that right?

The standard/beveled corners (mentori) and especially the square/box (kaku-uchi) profiles are the most unclear ones. I interpret these to mean something like a common Western bevel-edge chisel, where the top edges are beveled some, but there is still a significant square land on the bottom edge, so they would be unsuitable to work into a dovetail corner for example. Am I on the right track here? How much of a bevel does this profile have? Are there any pictures? Does the kaku-uchi profile used on the smaller chisels have any bevel at all, or is it like a square-edge registered chisel?

I don't want the full triangular profile. I want a flat top, and sides that bevel to a reasonably fine edge to get into corners. I THINK that means I want the trapezoid profile. But I would really like to see some examples of how these profiles compare and the relative sizes of the bevels for each.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Tony Wilkins]

"I want my MTV"

That MTV of course being from the early eighties.

[Chris Griggs]

OUCH! That sounds like that would hurt, Dave.

I've got a full beard myself, I usually shave with a SR about once a week. My throat and that little patch just under lower lip.

I've been busy this month, especially the last couple of weeks. I shaved this morning for the first time in a couple of weeks. I noticed much less razor burn. I also stropped the razor on my linen strop before the leather. Not sure that made a difference, more practice will tell.

Learning what SHARP & SMOOTH is about has been most helpful. Not sure if I'm quite there yet, but I'm much better than when I started, thanks to this group.

My two pennies

Order some iron oxide from here (http://www.maggardrazors.com/index.php/product/maggard-razors-iron-oxide-paste-0-10-micron-20g/) or here (http://shop.kremerpigments.com/en/pigments/iron-oxide-pigments/iron-oxide-red-110-m--light-48100:.html) (if from this link make sure you get that one...the Red 110 m) and stick it on a piece of balsa. It takes a sharp yet not smooth razor edge and turn it into butter. You can follow the iron oxide with a leather strop or you can just shave straight of the iron ox. Its magical.

[Steve Bates]

Thanks, Chris, for the information. I've just ordered from Maggard's. Added a couple of shaving soap samples also.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks, Chris, for the information. I've just ordered from Maggard's. Added a couple of shaving soap samples also.

The maggards is what I have too. Its probably the same thing as the pigment from kremer just mixed in suspension, put in a little case, with the price jacked up (you definitely get much more for your money just buying the pigment), but it is convenient and less messy to buy it from Maggards. You get a small amount from them but you use so little it doesn't matter. I've literally only charged the piece of balsa I use before every shave 2 times (so when I got it and then one other time) in the 6 mos or so I've been using a straight, and when you do charge it you literally use a tiny amount. I take a plastic spoon dip the very tip of the handle in the stuff, dot it around on the balsa and them use the belly of the spoon side to spread it around. If it won't spread enough just wet your spoon a tiny amount with water or a bit of oil and that will help it spread better. Again, you really need very very little of the compound...like the amount you can scoop up on the tip of toothpick. It lasts quite while, and it will improve the edge in both keeness and smoothness off of any stone and even off of something like chromium oxide.

(Oh and too keep this post on topic I'll add that you should feel free to hone any KI chisel you have on it too...though it would be complete overkill :))

[Mike Holbrook]

Straight razors ehh. I have been thinking about that. At the moment I use an old Gillette open comb, long tooth on a Dave's Razors Bull Mastiff handle with Crystal double edge blades form Israel. I am a little afraid to leave a straight razor around where my wife or daughter could employ it against me.

Thanks for the input Tony. I ordered a PM-V11 and two KI chisels yesterday from LV. I wanted to try both. I bought KI's that are between the available LV chisels sizes. I have chisels in most of the sizes the PM chisels are available in. Like you I am confident I will like the LV chisels. At the moment, I am on projects that might need chisels made to be struck. I plan to buy more PMs after I get a better feel for sizes I find useful for the type of projects I am working on. I think LV may be producing more sizes in the PM chisels before long too, which is another reason I am holding out, 3/16,5/8 would be nice.

[Mike Holbrook]

I was just watching David Charlesworth's video Chisel Techniques for Precision Joinery. It raised a question in my mind regarding a couple issues in dovetail chisel design. LV apparently choose to leave the beveled edges of their chisels sharper than any chisels I am familiar with.

Charlesworth offers special techniques to prevent the "bruising" of the walls of dovetails. One technique David uses involves skewing the side of the chisel blade to the corner being paired such that only the very narrow tip traverses the delicate corners. Another technique is the use of a variation on a skewed chisel. Instead of buying a skewed chisel he simply grinds the edge of a regular (maybe 1/4") chisel to less than 90 degrees from the side, creating a skewed tip.

One can see in the close ups that the Lie-Nielsen chisels David uses have relieved edges. So there is a trade off in regard to chisel edges, too sharp may hurt fingers, too dull may bruise corners/sides. LV seems to have leaned toward sharper edges, allowing the user to dull them slightly where and as needed. It seems to me that this may be one of the factors that makes the PM-V11 chisels popular for fine parring, even vs specially designed parring chisels. I personally do not find the PM-V11 edges objectionable for fine mallet or hand work thus far. The edges on these chisels are manufactured to the same exacting standards as the larger surfaces and cutting edge. I am thinking that these slight modification in the design of these chisel's edges is a factor in their popularity.

I am finding the PM-V11's to have some advantages in fine work vs the Japanese KI dovetail chisels. I am still glad to have the KI's for removing the larger waste pieces in dovetails with a metal hammer. The KI's seem specifically designed to excel at delicate work with a hammer.

[David Weaver]

David is using Lie Nielsen chisels in that video, though, isn't he?

The KI dovetail chisels probably vary a tiny bit from chisel to chisel. Mine are cutting sharp on the corners, and I have left them that way. If I am going to use them one-handed and the side of the chisel comes in contact with a finger joint, I have to put tape on my finger or there is soon blood. I try to avoid that kind of stuff with dovetails, though, it just becomes a huge time soak.

I do agree though that the sharpness of those corners is an asset if you would like to completely forgo paring. You can cut a perfectly clean corner on a dovetail without brusing it simply by placing the chisel correctly in the baseline.

In general, precise mallet work with japanese chisels is probably a more common theme than it is with us and western chisels. You won't hear too many western users doing mental toil about the virtues of how different woods transmit energy to the chisel edge differently off of a steel hammer, but i've seen more than one discussion like that with japanese chisels.

(Look away stanley) I still hit my japanese chisels with a wood is good mallet most of the time if they are going to be struck fairly hard, though (look away stan). I often have a headache and am not tolerant of the banging because of it.

[Jack Curtis]

I was just watching David Charlesworth's video Chisel Techniques for Precision Joinery. It raised a question in my mind regarding a couple issues in dovetail chisel design. LV apparently choose to leave the beveled edges of their chisels sharper than any chisels I am familiar with. ...

The shinogi chisels, often called dovetail chisels, are called "dovetail" because of the shape of the chisel, not any particular adaptation for making dovetails.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yes David, thanks! I got lost in my LV & LN ing and used the wrong abbreviation, which I hope I just repaired in my post. I was having connection problems earlier and could not get posts to work. Interesting that David's Koyamaichi chisel edges are sharp enough to cut him, mine are more like the Lie-Nielsen chisels Charlesworth uses in his video. The edges of my KI's appear to have been slightly flattened.

Jack, good point about the Koyamaichi "dovetail" chisels. I was actually just trying to identify those chisels the same way Lee Valley does for clarity's sake. I often have problems figuring out exactly which chisels posters are talking about with all the abbreviations, then I turn around and use them too, grrr ;-)

The Charlesworth video is on "Precision" joinery though and I think the LV, KI chisels (which I can say now that I clarified the terms) are great for precise work with a Japanese gennou, such as removing the larger pieces of wood in dovetails. I'm not trying to pick little nits off big nits here as much as wrestle with the best uses for tools I have purchased and my own style.

[Derek Cohen]

I imagine Stu or someone at Lee Valley could help me with figuring this out but I would like to hear the preferences of fellow posters too.
I find quite few different types of Koyamaichi chisels on Stu's site but only one at LV. I checked out Derek's post on his Koyamaichis and got further confused when I discovered Derek has chisels that were modified to his specs.

I am specifically interested in 2-3 parring chisles, Usu-nomi? but I also see Umeki-shinogi which are referred to as detail chisels. I am thinking larger sizes 5/8? 1/2-3/4" for cleaning rabbits, dadoes and 1 1/4- 1 1/2 for tenons, making saw lines, general parring of larger areas... The Umeki-Shinogi are described as triangular chisels like the Umeki-nomi I find at Lee Valley. I think the LV chisels are more general purpose, bench chisels and the Umeki-shinogi are designed thinner and lighter for detailed work? I also may be interested in a couple detail chisels for cleaning dovetails, smaller mortises & tenons, getting into corners so I am wondering if the Umeki-shinogi fill this role better than the Umeki-nomi? Then Stu offers a 9mm (3/8") dovetail/fishtail which might do similar clean up work?

Hi Mike

Better late than not at all.

The Koyamaichi I began with were manufactured in the 80's - three on the left. These were supplemented by the three on the right, which were specially ground for me by Mr Koyama. This was arranged by Stu as I wanted a Japanese chisel with minimal lands.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels_html_m503d1791.jpg

You have to realise that Japanese "dovetail" chisels are not really dovetail chisels - they are just called that. They are simply bench chisels. I guess that as the Japanese like to hide their joinery, there is no call for chisels with fine lands to create fine dovetails.

The Koyamaichi at Lee Valley look different to my original ones, and they appear to have larger lands than my custom Koyamaichi, and about the same as my early ones.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/60s0524v2_zpsb28903f9.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/LV-Koya1_zpsd8ae6e7f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

J ....From what I am reading I believe the LV Umeki nomi and the new PM-V11 chisels will serve similar functions. Derek posted a review of the new LV chisles and compared them to the Koyamaichi among others. A little research on Derek's site reveals that before the PM-V11 chisels came out Derek believed the Koyamaichi chisels produced a longer lasting, tougher edge by far vs any western chisel. Now it looks like the PM-V11 chisels may take the prize for the most durable edge, although I think the Koyamaichi may still have some performance traits some prefer over the PM-V11. Both are excellent chisels and I plan to try one or two of both.

In the tests I completed, the performance of the PM-V11 and Koyamaichi were comparable. The Koyamaichi did better the Veritas at the end. Both were head-and-shoulders above the O1 and A2 steels.

Recall, one of my warnings was not to choose chisels by steel alone. There are many other factors to consider, such as comfort and purpose. The Koyamaichi are designed to be used with a gennou, while the Veritas are equally at home with pushing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I'll have to look at the LV KI chisels, as I bought those as my first set of quality chisels long before stu picked up the line. BUT, the lands on the ones I have are closer to your later chisels and not like a lot of the shinogi that are not necessarily intended for western dovetail type work. I believe the minimal lands that are there may also have a slope to them so as to still evade damaging dovetails.

They really are delightful chisels, though maybe a trick for a beginner to sharpen because there is little cross section and no way to put them in a guide.

It could be that the LV chisels may vary since KI is making them somewhat by hand (I know he's got various jigs or forging dies, etc, to ensure some repeatability), but the lands on mine can be used right up against a dovetail with no ill consequence. they are, as i mentioned, sharp enough to cut fingers, too.

[Tony Shea]

I have never received a shinogi style Japanese chisel that had as sharp of lands as the LN and LV chisels, even my KI's. My Iyori shinogi chisels have really large lands but they have a slight slope to them which does help. But as David mentioned, everyone of the shinogi chisels I own (i think 7 or them) has different size lands. My Nishiki chisels actually have the smallest with one of the KI's very close in size. Even chisels made by the same person have varying sizes which is actually a nice feature similar to that of our handmade pieces of woodwork. I find the land size really is not that big of a deal in use as long as you pick the right size chisel that will not bruise your tail walls. I am still able to get the rest of the material out with a smaller chisel or if there is enough room by angling the chisel slightly. I personally feel to much emphasis is put on land size of chisels and is something I was always concerned about when first buying chisels. Small lands is not a bad feature but something that can be worked around easily.

[Jack Curtis]

OK, stupid question of the day: What exactly is a "land" in chisel talk? My best guess is it's the part that slopes from the arris up. If so, I contend that it doesn't matter much for cutting action, but what does matter is the sharpness of the arris.

Tony, if I'm right, how would one sharpen a land? If you're saying the KI arrises are duller than those from LV and LN, that's a problem with sharpening only. LV/LN ship sharp, KI ships expecting the user to sharpen before using. This would then be a non-issue.