material estimation

[Bob Cooper]

I know there's not a perfect answer and "it depends" may be the right answer but i'll ask it anyway. I'm getting ready to build my second set of kitchen cabinets and i need to go ahead and order plywood and face frame material. The style is face frame, overlay doors and drawers. I'll build them in the shop and them install them.

Is there a rough rule of thumb to determine how much material to buy -- sheet goods and hardwood for doors/drawers/faceframes. Don't worry about the drawer box material. Not sure if folks have a formula that you use like x board feet per linear foot of base and upper cabinet.

I'd just like to get some material ordered.

Thanks.

[Mark Bolton]

Why not just design the project and do an accurate takeoff? Or better yet, if your ok with a program like sketchup do it in a plug-in like Cabinet Sense and let it generate your BOM for you. You can do all your layout, joinery methods of your choice, door and drawer layout, etc.. When your done the software will generate you a detailed bill of materials and a dead accurate cut list of all your parts with board and sheet optimization as well.

As you say there is no real accurate rule as there are so many ways to construct carcass'. How you build them, stretchers, nailers, solid backs, solid tops, etc., make it difficult to wing.

[Roy Harding]

I'm not familiar with Cabinet Sense - but I have been using Cutlist Plus for years. It generates cutlists, keeps inventory (if I want it to), calculates prices, generates a BOM, - I can't imagine working without it.

You have to make a cutlist anyway - everything happens automatically, I can't say enough about it.

And - like Mark said - the differences in construction methods would throw any generic BOM entirely out of whack.

[Mark Bolton]

I'm not familiar with Cabinet Sense

Ive used it a good bit as its a decent alternative to a major outlay in software (5k and up). In its multiple cabinet version its a $30/mo commitment but I believe you can subscribe/quit at will so I guess if you had project you could pay the 30 for a month or two then cancel it.

It does everything pretty well but as with anything sketchup you trade a good bit of time for the fact that its cheap. It outputs to cutlist so its a format you'd be familiar with. We use it to generate cutlists for virtually everything cabinet related that goes through the shop. It breaks down all your door rails and stiles, face frame components, drawer and pull outs, and so on. Pretty handy. Id love to have one of the bigger software packages but its just not something I do enough to justify the expense.

No affiliation of course, just came across it looking for a cost effective solution and Im pretty well versed in sketchup having done renderings for customers with it for years with another paid raytracing plug-in called podium. Very handy.

[Roy Harding]

...
No affiliation of course, just came across it looking for a cost effective solution and Im pretty well versed in sketchup having done renderings for customers with it for years with another paid raytracing plug-in called podium. Very handy.

Thanks for the explanation. It appears to be a fine system.

Although my trade is called "Cabinet Maker" where I live - I stopped making and installing cabinets a few years ago, I just couldn't compete with the big shops (not to mention that I hated installing the damned things). I stick to furniture and boxes now.

HOWEVER - the ONLY person in the world who could possibly convince me to make and install another kitchen (my bride of 35 years) is still waiting for the new kitchen I promised when we bought our present place six years ago. I'll probably have a look at this software when I actually get around to fulfilling that particular promise (she's still waiting for the oak living room, as well!)

For the OP - there are many solutions out there - but I don't think anybody else's solution will perfectly fit your needs.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks for the explanation. It appears to be a fine system.

Although my trade is called "Cabinet Maker" where I live - I stopped making and installing cabinets a few years ago, I just couldn't compete with the big shops (not to mention that I hated installing the damned things). I stick to furniture and boxes now.

HOWEVER - the ONLY person in the world who could possibly convince me to make and install another kitchen (my bride of 35 years) is still waiting for the new kitchen I promised when we bought our present place six years ago. I'll probably have a look at this software when I actually get around to fulfilling that particular promise (she's still waiting for the oak living room, as well!)

For the OP - there are many solutions out there - but I don't think anybody else's solution will perfectly fit your needs.

HAH!!! Aint that the truth, what a bunch of truth condensed in a few short and concise sentences. Warms and saddens my heart all at the same time!!:confused: Im headed in your direction hopefully by years end.

As for your own kitchen I can feel your pain. Its the curse of this profession that you build all these beautiful things for others but never seem to have the time, desire, whatever, to do it for yourself. Story of my life.

I havent looked in a while but there is a free version I believe that lets you export a limited number of boxes. I can honestly say (and I also have to say Im not positive its true) but if anyone was going to the extent of building a kitchen it would, in my opinion, be crazy not to invest the time in getting into some form of software. Guys who build kitchens every day can build them in their mind, but if your doing a few here and there, or one or two, getting it in the software will filter a lot of your grief.

With this optioin, its all dynamic component based, so you can open and close all your doors and drawers to look for interference issues, and you can simply pan around and look at the layout in the software for as long as you wish before you cut the first board too short.:eek: Everything is scale-able and so on. Its a pretty nifty solution and support is top notch with very quick responses.

Thanks for the chuckle!! :D

[Erik Christensen]

just finished my kitchen cabinet design 2 months ago - now into full scale production. everything designed in sketchup and then cutlist plus used for layouts & BOM

[Andy Pratt]

I have the KCD software with the cutlist feature that calculates all this out, but before I had that I just figured it all out by hand/head before every project, erring on the high side at every judgement call. I rounded all ply components up to the nearest foot for ease of calculation (there aren't as many different combos as you would think, once you do that, so you end up just tick marking) and usually ended up with 10-20% extra if I didn't make any mistakes in building, so it was reasonably accurate. Solid wood estimation was harder and that's a "depends on the details" thing for sure. That software is expensive for a reason though, everyone hates doing this and it takes forever to do it accurately, the software turns a 8 hour job into a 20 second calculation and 5 second print.

[John TenEyck]

I use SketchUp for all my drawing now and Cutlist to output the list of parts and panel layouts. But when I built my kitchen 18 years ago it didn't exist - or I didn't know about it if it did. I laid out all the panels by hand on paper - all 27 cabinets. You know, it really wasn't that hard. There are lots of common lengths, lots of common widths; it really wasn't very hard to do. So if you aren't using a drawing package already, don't bother trying to learn one just to take advantage of the layout capability, just do it by hand and you'll be done in a couple of hours.

John

[Mark Bolton]

What does your KCD cost you?

[Bob Cooper]

I haved used sketch some but probably not enough for it to be convenient. Seems like I always had issue getting polygons to easily close or position things easily. For my two kitchens I've used Visio and its just all in 2D. Layers works well and it just seems easy. I know that's largely a function though of what you're used too. I'll try and shoot a couple pictures of my first kitchen -- drawing and then product. It was very much a learn by doing exercise

[Bob Cooper]

not to bore anyone but here's some pictures of my first kitchen -- visio and actual pictures. In addition to this i created an excel spreadsheet to do some calculations for me -- i.e. i can put the face frame openning sizes in and it calculates the sizes for stiles, rails and raised panels.
image 1 - visio of oven and frig
image 2 - picture showing frig, oven, island and sink
image 3 - visio of range
image 4 - picture of range, island and sink
image 5 - visio of sink

[Mark Bolton]

There are lots of common lengths, lots of common widths; it really wasn't very hard to do.


I agree in a basic kitchen there are some common dimensions but in a custom kitchen, and a custom kitchen of today, there are often vast quantities of unique parts. The kitchen we just completed, which wasnt super complicated, came out at about 3000 parts. Other than upper and lower stile length, and carcass sides, there weren't 3-4 parts the same length. I say three because the kitchen was all double doors so every door was a pair. As sad as it may be, software just simplifies and speeds the entire process while eliminating mistakes and guess-work.

I have done many jobs long hand prior to any easier option being available however I have also suffered the misery of one missed math calculation or an improperly placed decimal costing me a cabinet or door re-make. The thing I like about the software (and I never thought I would) is if you cant put it together in the computer, you sure as heck cant put it together in the real world. And a few mouse clicks is a heck of a lot cheaper than 50+ a sheet ply or solids.

I already mentioned it, but beyond saving math and other simple mistakes, it allows someone who doesnt build kitchens on a daily basis to see issues with door and drawer interference, appliance and door interference, handle interference, and so on. I never would have known of such foresight years ago but to pass up the opportunity now when you can design an entire working kitchen for 30 bucks it would be nuts to ignore the resource.

To the OP, I definitely understand sketchup makes sense to some, and not to others. I suppose you have to do what works for you. My issue with trying to work these things out as best as possible prior to cutting wood is just as you say, its a major investment, and getting it as close to what you want is always the hope.

[Mark Bolton]

not to bore anyone but here's some pictures of my first kitchen -- visio and actual pictures. In addition to this i created an excel spreadsheet to do some calculations for me -- i.e. i can put the face frame openning sizes in and it calculates the sizes for stiles, rails and raised panels.
image 1 - visio of oven and frig
image 2 - picture showing frig, oven, island and sink
image 3 - visio of range
image 4 - picture of range, island and sink
image 5 - visio of sink


Super nice. I went the spread sheet route myself but just found so many variables hard to track. I guess its just a progression.. long hand (pen and paper), spread sheets, sketchup/plug-in's do all that work for you but still with a bit of setup, then you get to KCD, CV, and so on that do it all and provide you with complete shop drawings.

Its just deciding which option works best for you. If your doing spread sheets already, BOM calculations should be a snap. SU/CS outputs all cutlists and BOM's to excel so its just a shorthand option for every component in the project, right down to slides and pulls, of what your already doing long hand.

[Bob Cooper]

Here's the new kitchen i'm building...this led me to the original post. This is a nice apartment above the garage. Just visio so far...getting my head around building the next set of cabinets (and i'm not really done w/the main house yet).
image 1 - the entire floor layout...just so you can see where the kitchen is in the upper left corner
image 2 - rough layout of the entire kitchen...as you can tell this is in an area where the roof line slopes down to a knee wall. (12x12 roof)
image 3 - the finished design of one of the cabinets -- the "island". It has an induction cooktop and a downdraft exhaust and i wanted to locate exactly where that duct would be because i had to run it before everything was built. It also has access from both sides and that's why it looks twice as long as it actually is...that's just the layout of the backside...which really isn't quite finished yet. I also started using transparency so you can see through the face frames.

I would be interested in trying to do this in sketchup. If i did that, do i draw all the components by hand or do these plug-ins make that much quicker.

[John TenEyck]

Gee, Bob, it seems like you already have it figured out. Why not just add up the square footage from your Excel spreadsheet, add maybe 10% to it, and use that to order your sheet goods. Add maybe 25% for rough hardwood.

John

[Bob Cooper]

John...i've really only laid out one in exact detail thus far and likely i'm going to build this 'as i can get to it' so it may take a while.

What i just did do though was measure the "area" of the cabinet faces that have drawer fronts and doors + took a rough guess on how much i needed for the open cabinets. Plus did that for the bath and rounded up a good bit and came out to around 170sf. The wife would like this kitchen made of mahogany...the house was alder. i'd like to go ahead and get the hardwood on order.

The plywood...i have a ton to build over time -- there's bookshelves that run all along the back wall. So i'll just buy 15 sheets to get started.

Clearly if i were doing this as a business i couldn't afford to be this sloppy w/quantities.

[Andy Pratt]

Mark, KCD with the cutlist & pricing was right around $5000 as of last year

[Mark Bolton]

Drawing the components by hand is an arduous task in my opinion mainly because of the fact that they will not be dynamically scalable which means you basically have to build each door/box somewhat like you do in the shop. It surely can be sped up with saved components but its a ton of work. I'm not selling the CS plug in because I have no affiliation but its a decent solution. The plug in allows you to simply drag and drop boxes into your space sizing them by either inputting dimensions or using the scale tool. All the components of the cabinet are adjusted when anything is re-sized.

You can get the trial version and play around with it and there are several video tutorials which would give you an idea of the interface so you could see if you think it'd work for you. The BOM and cut list is where it shines for me.

i find sketchup a lot of work when your drawing large projects out stick by stick, saving every stick as a component, and so on. But eventually you wind up with a library of components that can be reused and modified a bit quicker. Id never go that route when there is a reasonably priced alternative available.

[John TenEyck]

Clearly if i were doing this as a business i couldn't afford to be this sloppy w/quantities.

Bob, when it's for yourself you can be as fast or slow, or as precise or sloppy as you choose. When I built my one and only kitchen (I hope) I drew it by hand, but used Excel to calculate part dimensions and figure out square footage. There were no surprises later on during the build or install, so while I prefer to use SketchUp now, hand drawing still works. My best advise is to use story sticks, or layout a whole run of cabinets in plan view full size on a long piece of paper, and then build to that. Then I laid out all the melamine parts on paper by hand. 27 cabinets, and I don't think it took 2 hours. OK, Cutlist does it in the blink of your mouse, but still, not bad. I bought enough melamine to crush the back of a pickup, which wasn't near enough, but it got me started and allowed me to see how well my layouts were working. When I used those up I went and bought the remainder. In the end, I think I had to go back one more time for an extra sheet or two, but I wasn't adding any extra to my purchases so that was my own fault. I think I used around 35 sheets of 3/4" material, and I forget how much 5/8" and 1/4". All I know is I hated moving all those tons of materials, multiple times through the build process, and I swore I'd never do another kitchen. So far I haven't had to eat those words. After I built all the boxes I built the doors and drawers to fit them. Pretty simple process.

John

[Alden Miller]

Interesting thread. I got tired of figuring out what I needed on paper years ago and wrote a program that lets me enter the cabinet sizes and options. It then spits out a cutting diagram for each piece wood, labels for each piece that I cut, and how many pieces of sheet goods and wood that I need to purchase.

It was a fun thing to write, really made me think about cabinet making and all the variables I could come up with.

-Alden