Breaker didn't trip on dead short

[Ole Anderson]

Working on my kitchen remodel and I am rerouting the range vent wire (14 ga on a 15 amp breaker). I had turned off the breaker a few days earlier when I removed the old vent hood and forgot that I turned it back on to allow use of a ceiling fan. So I am starting to install a new outlet on the end of the old wire and I chomp down on the romex with my nice Knipex dikes to clean up the end. After removing the wire nuts I had installed just to be safe. My left hand is holding the romex while my right hand is squeezing the dikes. Not being too smart, this isn't the first time I have done this. Typically a few sparks and the breaker trips in a few milliseconds and the dikes now become a wire stripper due to the arc on the cutter. Well, this time it shoots an arc of fire probably 4 inches directly onto the fingers of my left hand turning the skin black and hurting like heck. No zapping, just an arc burn. Well, after running cold water on my fingers for a few minutes I wonder if the breaker ever tripped. I check the panel and, no, the breaker is not tripped, even after causing a dead short. What gives besides my own stupidity? I presume the 38 year old Federal-Pacific breaker is bad and am wondering if there is a way to test the other breakers to make sure they will trip. Closer inspection of the wire leads me to think the black on my (pic is after being washed with soap and water) fingers is more soot from the burned insulation than it is charred skin. A few days will tell.

My other thought is that I didn't get a clean cut due to a, ahem, previous, similar incident which grooved the cutter, allowing the wire to remain in contact with the dikes resulting in an extended welder like arc rather than a true dead short.

[Matt Meiser]

Federal-Pacific breaker

There's your likely problem.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/Federal-Pacific-Circuit-Breakers-Investigation-Finds-Decades-of-Danger-171406921.html

Guy I used to work for lived in Saline and all the houses in the subdivision had FPE breakers. He was doing some work tracing wires and had intentionally shorted an outlet with a piece of wire he forgot to remove. When he turned the breaker back on it melted the wire and receptacle without tripping the breaker. They had several fires in the subdivision.

By the way, I did the same and ruined a nice pair of ChannelLock strippers during our remodel last year.

[Brian Elfert]

If you do a Google search you'll find page after page of issues with FPE breakers. If it was me I would replace or have replaced the entire panel before you have a real short that burns the house down.

I see Federal Pacific panels with breakers on Craigslist fairly often. I'm not sure if the sellers are ignorant and don't know they are unsafe, or if they know they are unsafe and still trying to make a buck anyhow.

[Ole Anderson]

Thanks, good info on the FPE StabLoc breakers, looks like I need to look at replacing the whole 200 amp panel.

[Stephen Cherry]

If you have a history for this sort of thing, maybe just call an electrician?

[Ole Anderson]

If you have a history for this sort of thing, maybe just call an electrician?

That would be the smart thing to do. But would you call in a cabinet builder to make a bookcase if you had been doing it as a hobby for 38 years and cut your finger on a chisel a few times? I wired my entire house when it was built and wired full kitchen remods for friends a few times as well as a few other projects. I've gotten a few pokes over the years, but this is the worst which was due to faulty equipment. But if the panel needs replacing, I will likely have a pro do it. If I can find reliable replacement for the FPE breakers, I will swap them out myself.

[Brian Elfert]

Federal Pacific has been out of business for 20+ years. Home Depot carries replacement breakers made by another company that don't have the same issues with not tripping, but they cost $25 and up per breaker. Breakers to fit modern panels cost less than $5 for a single pole breaker and under $10 for a double pole breaker. I don't know if replacing a panel would require the breakers be upgraded to be Arc Fault to meet current code.

The Federal Pacific panels themselves are not very good. They rely on the cover to keep the breakers in contact with the bus bar. No modern panel I know of relies on the cover in the same way. Considering the cost of replacement breakers and the other issues if it was me I would just chuck the whole thing.

[Stephen Cherry]

That would be the smart thing to do. But would you call in a cabinet builder to make a bookcase if you had been doing it as a hobby for 38 years and cut your finger on a chisel a few times? I wired my entire house when it was built and wired full kitchen remods for friends a few times as well as a few other projects. I've gotten a few pokes over the years, but this is the worst which was due to faulty equipment. But if the panel needs replacing, I will likely have a pro do it. If I can find reliable replacement for the FPE breakers, I will swap them out myself.

Ole- a chisel can cut your finger, a table saw can cut you finger off. Electricity can zap you out permanently.

Just about anybody can wire a house, it's dead. It takes extreme focus to work on something live. I'd at least take it as a wake up call to revisit your procedures. (turn the breaker off, test that the circuit is dead, etc.). Just my opinions.

[Steve Meliza]

I'm thinking that a GFCI breaker our upstream GFCI outlet might have helped. Dare I mention that a professional would check double the breaker and check the wires for voltage before resuming work? I use a $15 non-contact checker from Klein, but for about half that you can get the kind with two probes and a light that comes on if the wires are live.

[paul cottingham]

Some of the old school electricians I know would have just laughed, shook it off, and carried on. Everyone makes mistakes, no matter how experienced. It's not unlike an experienced woodworker who gets hurt by his table saw after a moments lack of attention.
That being said, please be careful. Oh, and replace that panel.

[Eric DeSilva]

By the way, I did the same and ruined a nice pair of ChannelLock strippers during our remodel last year.

I'll confess too. Wiring up some puck lights, measured out the extension cord wire, cut with some wire snips, and loud boom. Turns out the wire snips were very handy after that--perfect hole for stripping electrical wire. Imagine that.

[Dan Hintz]

I'll confess too. Wiring up some puck lights, measured out the extension cord wire, cut with some wire snips, and loud boom. Turns out the wire snips were very handy after that--perfect hole for stripping electrical wire. Imagine that.

One of my multimeter probes has a divot in it where it arced to the (grounded) metal electrical box... I really don't like the metal boxes, so I replace with plastic wherever possible.

[Ole Anderson]

Dare I mention that a professional would check double the breaker and check the wires for voltage before resuming work?
I know a pro that does work on hotels/motels and works on live circuits all of the time due to the difficulty of tracking down the proper breaker for a simple repair. The problem arises when you think it is a dead circuit and it isn't. I do need to pick up a voltage proximity tester.

Again it was a burn not an electrical shock. I never came in contact with a live wire.

[Steve Meliza]

I know a pro that does work on hotels/motels and works on live circuits all of the time due to the difficulty of tracking down the proper breaker for a simple repair. Yah, I was there when my dad opted to not kill the power to the lights because people were working in the offices and would have been put in the dark. A few minutes into the work there was a loud ker-pow, the room went dark and I heard his lineman's pliers hit the floor. I was sure the next sound I would hear was him falling from the ladder and hitting the floor, but he was ok because he knew how to work it somewhat safely and it was just that he bumped the metal box with the pliers. He finished the job with the circuit de-energized. I've changed outlets while the wires are hot, but it's like you say, a big difference between thinking the wires are dead and they are not.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The problem arises when you think it is a dead circuit and it isn't.Just as I treat all guns as always being loaded, I treat all circuits as being live.
I can afford that luxury though since I only do electrical work on a very infrequent basis. My normal method of doing electrical work is to drag out the check book and write a check to an electrician.

[ray hampton]

could the breaker or the wiring be hook -up wrong ?

[Chris Padilla]

I hate working on live circuits at home. I have a fear that the extra perspiration it generates on my hands and forehead might turn me into a super conductor (from the salt) and zap me into next week! That said, I've done it plenty of times...just have to be extra, extra careful.

[ray hampton]

I not sure what salt will do for your skin as a super conductor but water will increase your skin volts/amps carrying capability
do salt water dry on your skin as the same rate as fresh water ?

[Steve Meliza]

Pure water is a terrible conductor of electricity, salt adds the ions needed for the flow of electrons.

[Brian Elfert]

Most water is not pure so I would never take a chance around water and electricity. Even tap water could have enough minerals and iron in it to be conductive.

[Steve Meliza]

Just trying to point out the reason why salt is important, not suggesting that deionized water is commonplace.

[Rod Sheridan]

I hate working on live circuits at home. I have a fear that the extra perspiration it generates on my hands and forehead might turn me into a super conductor (from the salt) and zap me into next week! That said, I've done it plenty of times...just have to be extra, extra careful.

As an electrical tech I can state that there is no reason to ever work on anything that's energised unless it's for the purpose of making measurements.

Please don't do hot work, having to reset the clock on the microwave isn't a good counter point to a fatality..............Rod.

[ray hampton]

Pure water is a terrible conductor of electricity, salt adds the ions needed for the flow of electrons.


a ohms meter can check your water to see how pure that the water is