Wanted to chew on my new PM-V11 chisels

[Hilton Ralphs]

Happy chappy here.

My new Veritas PM-V11 chisels arrived yesterday. I bought the set as the shipping is very expensive to South Africa and I don't want to buy in dribs and drabs.

Anyway, they look superb and my initial reaction was to chew on the handle. Sounds odd I know but according to the manual, they are are caramelized maple and sure as nuts, they also smell like caramel!

I never thought I would be smelling my tools..............

Lovely balance in the hand.

Will post a review once I've had a good shot at them.

[glenn bradley]

Congrats Hilton! Now you have a cool signature line, "I want to chew on my chisels".

[Hilton Ralphs]

Congrats Hilton! Now you have a cool signature line, "I want to chew on my chisels".

Thanks and duly changed!

I see the 1/8th and 3/16ths versions of the PM-V11 chisels will be out eventually. I couldn't wait though so bought the Ashley Iles 1/16th and 1/8th chisels.

Oh well, no harm in having more chisels hey?

[Adam Cruea]

Thanks and duly changed!

I see the 1/8th and 3/16ths versions of the PM-V11 chisels will be out eventually. I couldn't wait though so bought the Ashley Iles 1/16th and 1/8th chisels.

Oh well, no harm in having more chisels hey?

Chisels are like planes. One can never have too many. :-D

[Rob Lee]

Hi Hilton !

You should smell the warehouse when the lumber arrives.... it smells like a pancake house!

Cheers -

Rob
(and thanks for the order...!)

[Chris Hachet]

....becomes a problem when one also has a wood addiction, a saw addiction, a rasp addiction, a woodworking book addiction.... Adam you were saying....

[Chris Hachet]

Hi Hilton !

You should smell the warehouse when the lumber arrives.... it smells like a pancake house!

Cheers -

Rob
(and thanks for the order...!)I got a chance to try these when we had our Columbus Ohio woodworking get together. They worked fabulously....
looking forward to ordering a set for myself.

[Mike Holbrook]

I want that PM-V11 3/16 and probably 1/4, 3/8, 1/2.... I am eager to hear how Hilton likes them for his work. I think Rob fixed the two things I do not care for on my AI (Ashley Isles) chisels. Collars that tend to fall off and a handle that is a little too big near the blade. I guess there is that new steel, better handle attachment... too.

[Chris Griggs]

You'll like the PMV11. I just got my first piece of it a couple weeks ago, and despite all the reviews and Derek's great comparisons was still a bit skeptical abut how big of an improvement it would really be in actual use.

It really is very very nice stuff though. It beats the crap out of 01 and A2.

It takes very fine edge, similar in finess to really good high carbon steel (so good vintage western or japanese white), it takes that edge very easily, and holds it amazingly well at lowish angles. There really is no western steel (new or vintage) that I know of that can touch it, in terms of both finess and edge retention. The only thing I've used that has a similar combination of finess and strength are my Koyamaichi paring chisels.

So pretty much, my limited experience with it I would say matches exactly with what Derek showed in his steel comparison a couple weeks ago.

If you've got the full set keep that 1" set to 25 degrees...the stuff makes for a fantastic steel for paring and 25 degrees is where you'll really see it outshine other steels.

[Mike Holbrook]

So Chris, strictly as parring chisels how do they compare to the Japanese chisels? I think I want to try both the Koyamaichi and the Veritas chisels, but if the new Veritas chisels are as good at parring as the Koyamaichi's? They certainly are closer in looks & I imagine feel to the small collection of AI's I have.

[Hilton Ralphs]

You'll like the PMV11.



It really is very very nice stuff though. It beats the crap out of 01 and A2.
I wonder if the Veritas PM-V11 block plane blades will have a similar performance? I'm thinking of upgrading the blade on my Stanley 9 1/2.



The only thing I've used that has a similar combination of finess and strength are my Koyamaichi paring chisels.
If you've got the full set keep that 1" set to 25 degrees...the stuff makes for a fantastic steel for paring and 25 degrees is where you'll really see it outshine other steels.

Considering that the Koyamaichi long handle 'usu' nomi-thin paring chisel 36mm is about the same price as the 25mm Veritas chisel, which would you recommend for paring?

Thanks.
(happy to buy more chisels)

[Chris Griggs]

So Chris, strictly as parring chisels how do they compare to the Japanese chisels? I think I want to try both the Koyamaichi and the Veritas chisels, but if the new Veritas chisels are as good at parring as the Koyamaichi's? They certainly are closer in looks & I imagine feel to the small collection of AI's I have.

The steel makes for an excellent parer, but the chisel is a bench chisel. If you want a paring chisel you should definitely get a paring chisel. The length, be it in the handle of the japanese parers OR in the blade of a western, gives you a lot of very delicate control.

As far as the difference between the steel (PMv11 vs KI white) I haven't compared them enough to say much other than, both take a very very fine edge very easily and hold it very very well at 25 degrees. Both are immediately/noticeably better (again in terms of combination of finess and retention) than 01, A2, or vintage steel, but one isn't immediately/noticeably better than the other. In a head to head comparison, I suspect that the KI steel would beat the PMV11 in terms of finess of edge and ease of getting that edge, and that PMv11 would beat KI white in longevity (pretty sure it did in Dereks test), but I haven't done that test. Again, I haven't had either very long and really have only used both for relatively delicate work, so there may very well be big differences that I haven't seen yet (and may not since I'll never use my KI's for anything other than the light paring). Bottom line, both are phenomenal steels, and in both cases it was immediately apparent that they were better than anything I'd used previously.

Anyway, long story short. If you want a really good dedicated delicate highly controllable paring chisel your best bet is either a KI parer or a good vintage western parer. If you want a general purpose bench chisel that will work very well for paring and hold its edge well at 25 degrees the PMV11 will serve you just fine for that task...it is not however the same thing as using a dedicated paring chisel.

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder if the Veritas PM-V11 block plane blades will have a similar performance? I'm thinking of upgrading the blade on my Stanley 9 1/2.


I assume it would, and by all accounts it would, but I don't have any Pmv11 plane blades. I just have the 1" chisel.



Considering that the Koyamaichi long handle 'usu' nomi-thin paring chisel 36mm is about the same price as the 25mm Veritas chisel, which would you recommend for paring?


The KI, no question [see comments above...i think I was still writing them when you posted the question :-)]

A dedicated paring chisel (japanese or western) really is a joy to use. No bench chisel, no matter how good, has that same feel.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Chris.

[Tony Wilkins]

I've been very tempted to get these chisels but haven't yet. I do see an opportunity for LV to fill a market niche that hasn't been filled in some time - good western style parers with this new steel. *Oh, Rob!

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the input Chris. I had read a couple other threads in which there was considerable discussion regarding whether shorter, longer or regular bench chisels were better for fine dovetail work and I was surprised to find such a wide range of preferences. It is interesting that the better chisel manufactures seem to make mostly bench type chisels. I have not found near the selection in parring, firmer or even mortise chisels. I guess bench chisels are the most popular and the new growing interest in this type of hand tool has not convinced manufacturers to start producing the less popular chisel models yet. Seems like the Japanese specialized craftsmen/makers are about the only place one can find this level of quality in all types of chisels.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Guys: FWIW, I have the PM-V11 blade for my Veritas LA block plane - it was nice to sharpen, and held up very well during my Yew 2x4 project build - REAL WELL. On another note, I have a LN 3/16'' chisel in my herd, and it is the most often used size when I am doing dovetails. I might get the LV PM-V11 in that size in the future - - - Dave B

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the input Chris. I had read a couple other threads in which there was considerable discussion regarding whether shorter, longer or regular bench chisels were better for fine dovetail work and I was surprised to find such a wide range of preferences. It is interesting that the better chisel manufactures seem to make mostly bench type chisels. I have not found near the selection in parring, firmer or even mortise chisels. I guess bench chisels are the most popular and the new growing interest in this type of hand tool has not convinced manufacturers to start producing the less popular chisel models yet. Seems like the Japanese specialized craftsmen/makers are about the only place one can find this level of quality in all types of chisels.

Yeah, for most things, including dovetails, I do pefer a standard size bench chisel. I have some of the LV 01s as well that I really like for dovetailing and really anything at the bench. A friend of mine has he LN bench chisels and I'm a big fan of those too. Both are very light an balanced but still have some length which I like. I had some butt chisel for a while and didn't like them nearly as much as I thought I would. They were nice for light chopping and such, but the second you turn them from a chopping to a paring task (like in HBDTs and hinge mortises where you switch between chopping and paring out waste) they always seemed to too short.

I've been using my dedicated parers fairly differently. They come out when I need to really dial in the fit of something thing that really needs to be flat and consistent, and where there isn't room for undercutting a such. I also like them for little chamfers and stuff in cases where I can't get a plane. Basically anywhere, where I need to remove just a smidge of material over some length. Once you're paring a longer length than say just shoulders around a dovetail or tenon (i use a bench chisel there) the longer delicate parer really helps to maintain control throughout the cut.

[Rob Lee]

I've been very tempted to get these chisels but haven't yet. I do see an opportunity for LV to fill a market niche that hasn't been filled in some time - good western style parers with this new steel. *Oh, Rob!

Hi Tony -

A couple of irons in the fire on that one.... :)

The Veritas solution is in conceptual development right now.... but that means sometime in 2014.....

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

Rob, make them look like these but with the wondersteel!

http://www.thebestthings.com/oldtools/graphics/ch1305110.jpg

(I realize LV isn't really ever looking for my opinion, but pretty much the reason I use japanese parers is just because a lot of these older english parers and the new versions of them are on the soft side. The wondersteel would solve that problem. I realize that the bolster area would need a modern interpretation, but the rest of the setup - blade profile, weight, etc - is pretty much ideal. Plus, stanley didn't make them like this so there's no chance that something similar would show up in LN's listings in the future.)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Plus, stanley didn't make them like this so there's no chance that something similar would show up in LN's listings in the future.

That's funny!

[Chris Griggs]

Rob, make them look like these but with the wondersteel!

http://www.thebestthings.com/oldtools/graphics/ch1305110.jpg

(I realize LV isn't really ever looking for my opinion, but pretty much the reason I use japanese parers is just because a lot of these older english parers and the new versions of them are on the soft side. The wondersteel would solve that problem. I realize that the bolster area would need a modern interpretation, but the rest of the setup - blade profile, weight, etc - is pretty much ideal. Plus, stanley didn't make them like this so there's no chance that something similar would show up in LN's listings in the future.)


Plus one!


That's funny!

Plus two!!

[Gary Muto]

Plus one!



Plus two!!

Plus 2 and
Plus 3!!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Plus four or wherever we're at now . . .

I have a beautiful 1/4" Marples paring chisel that manages to be too soft . . . except for this one spot in the middle that's too hard and chips out. It's basically useless, but I can't part with the damn thing.

[Rob Lee]

Rob, make them look like these but with the wondersteel!

http://www.thebestthings.com/oldtools/graphics/ch1305110.jpg

(I realize LV isn't really ever looking for my opinion, but pretty much the reason I use japanese parers is just because a lot of these older english parers and the new versions of them are on the soft side. The wondersteel would solve that problem. I realize that the bolster area would need a modern interpretation, but the rest of the setup - blade profile, weight, etc - is pretty much ideal. Plus, stanley didn't make them like this so there's no chance that something similar would show up in LN's listings in the future.)

Hi David -

Hmm..... opinions like yours are exactly the type we're looking for, and listening too.... (time to get a bigger hat.... :) )

Parer's - when we do them, they'll be cranked neck, and not like the pattermakers paring chisels as you've shown. You will, however, see something along those lines from another maker soon.

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

Well, if you guys come out with cranked neck parers, they'll probably be the only decent ones on the market (the buck manufactured parers are more like hardware store chisels in crank neck shape, which would be OK if the chisels were actualy flat, but they are manufactured with a belly - at least the couple I have).

Too bad no traditional parer in the V11, though!

[Rob Lee]

Too bad no traditional parer in the V11, though!

Hi David -

I didn't *exactly* say that.... :) - it's just that we'll be scorching the earth with someone else's versions first...

I'd like to eventually make parer's ... but the prices would be stunning (not in a good way) - and holding them flat would certainly be difficult. I believe we have concept models done though... just very far down the list from a production standpoint.


Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

I figured they'd be $100 per or a little north of that, and that the shape and flexibility would present issues with grinding them accurately. That's a hard sell if the steel is average or dumpy but in the spirit of having "good ones" and a parer that holds an edge much better than the vintage parers and comes flat is a great thing and worth the money.

Time will tell us, though, I'm sure!

[Chris Griggs]

It will be cool to see what you guys come up with.

I too would really love to see a long thin non-cranked parer in PMV11 from you guys, but given the cost of the V11 I can definitely see it being too expensive to be easily marketable especially, considering that paring chisels are much more of a niche market than standard bench chisels (though I bet you'd still have a lot of buyers). Also, keep in mind that folks don't need to buy them in sets. 2-3 parers is good for most I bet, so if they're not too insanely expensive at the individual level they might still be a good bet.

If the concern is stepping on the other makers toes...just ditch the octagonal handle. The long thin blade is the important part, I'm sure you can find a lovely less traditional looking alternative for the rest.:)

Seriously Rob, the market is dying for good thin bladed western parers, and if you make them out of PMV11 I really think you'll be making some of the finest chisels ever produced...its simply fantastic stuff at 25 degrees.

(all that said i know you all know what you're doing and I'm sure whatever you come up with will be very nice)

[Rob Lee]

(snip)
Time will tell us, though, I'm sure!

Yeah.... eventually, our plan is to make everything...... ;)

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah.... eventually, our plan is to make everything...... ;)

Cheers -

Rob

Really? Everything? You're going to make one of these in PMV11? Might wanna rethink that strategy. :D:D:D

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[Rob Lee]

Hi Chris -

I have some real beauties in the collection.... and it would be tough to compete with some of the older sets. You see - we have to be able to manufacture products today - which means controlling quality with process and equipment. I believe that 100 years ago, quality paring chisels were a "crafted" product.... a lot of manual skill went into their production.

It's relatively simple to make a mediocre long parer... making an excellent one is orders of magnitude harder. Modern production equipment uses magnetic tables and fixtures to hold blades for shaping/grinding operations, and are strong enough to suck long thin blades flat for shaping, only to have them spring back concave or convex when released. Even secondary finishing processes like surface grinding or lapping are hard to do on a blade that flexes...

It's doable of course, just not as easy as it all seems....

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

Really? Everything? You're going to make one of these in PMV11? Might wanna rethink that strategy. :D:D:D

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Nah - I meant all tools.... not necessarily all in PM-V11....


Cheers -

Rob
(whose business can yet be made tons more complex....)

[Chris Griggs]

Hi Chris -

I have some real beauties in the collection.... and it would be tough to compete with some of the older sets. You see - we have to be able to manufacture products today - which means controlling quality with process and equipment. I believe that 100 years ago, quality paring chisels were a "crafted" product.... a lot of manual skill went into their production.

It's relatively simple to make a mediocre long parer... making an excellent one is orders of magnitude harder. Modern production equipment uses magnetic tables and fixtures to hold blades for shaping/grinding operations, and are strong enough to suck long thin blades flat for shaping, only to have them spring back concave or convex when released. Even secondary finishing processes like surface grinding or lapping are hard to do on a blade that flexes...

It's doable of course, just not as easy as it all seems....

Cheers -

Rob

Totally makes sense. And I agree, if you feel like you can't feasibly make something more than mediocre there's no point.

Thanks for the details Rob. Always enjoy hearing about this stuff.

[Chris Griggs]

Nah - I meant all tools.... not necessarily all in PM-V11....


Cheers -

Rob
(whose business can yet be made tons more complex....)

Well I can't say I'd advise you to make those in 01 or A2 either. Some tools are better left unmade, but to each his own.;)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Is the length of the blade really essential in a parer? I mean why can't it be a short thin blade with a longish handle? The Jap parers are like this.

Just wondering what I'd be doing with all that fancy steel all the way up to the hilt.

[Chris Griggs]

Is the length of the blade really essential in a parer? I mean why can't it be a short thin blade with a longish handle? The Jap parers are like this.

Just wondering what I'd be doing with all that fancy steel all the way up to the hilt.

It can be. It works great, and I'm sure a V11 with that setup would be very nice. Its just that there are already very good japanese parers in excellent steels available with that setup. The long thin parers have a slightly different more delicate feel that some folks really love, but in use either setup can be lovely.

[David Weaver]

Is the length of the blade really essential in a parer? I mean why can't it be a short thin blade with a longish handle? The Jap parers are like this.

Just wondering what I'd be doing with all that fancy steel all the way up to the hilt.

I don't know if it's critical if you don't have a long reach in on something (like western parers provide), but I have to admit that I have made a couple of the LN style parer handles for a few old stanley socket chisels, and I never really liked them that much compared to japanese parers or western parers. I don't know if it's how the chisel balances, or maybe it's just prejudice about how they look, but I felt like I was using something that was a little cobbled feeling. The socket type isn't really optimal, either, for that, maybe a tang would be better, and if lighter like the japanese style (which have a hidden tang)

No clue if the historical western design was intended to be long steel and short handle because of patternmakers, but regardless of the history, that type is nice to use and pleasing to the eye at the same time.

Some of the modern parers out there look OK, but none of them look great to me, even some of the expensive ones do look sort of like precision ground stock just stuffed in a handle.

[Hilton Ralphs]

So David, you don't like this Narex for instance?

I think it looks pretty cool.

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[David Weaver]

If it's priced like narex chisels are priced (as in a fraction of pretty much everything else) that's a pretty good modern interpretation.

Where did the picture come from? I just googled them and could only find UK places selling them (workshop heaven). Thought maybe the picture would've originated from highland tool or something. Not too bad looking, though ...just don't see them available over here anywhere.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Yes workshop heaven. I'm a global buyer :-)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Really? Everything? You're going to make one of these in PMV11? Might wanna rethink that strategy. :D:D:D

265212

. . . AfD for 2014?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

With the vintage paring chisels I've used, the extra length combined with the thinness of the blade has resulted in a flexiness that somehow seems to help things - I don't know quite how to word it, really. The length is very helpful for a two-handed grip and control, as well, of course. I always feel like a Japanese parer would miss that feel, but I've no idea if that would really matter.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm late joining this discussion but if you want a paring chisel at a decent price, many of the older chisels are very long in the (thin, flexible) blade, and some are plain rectangular blades (Joshua alluded to this). They're just plain carbon steel but they will take a nice edge - just won't hold it as long as modern steel.

I have a bunch of Swan cast steel chisels which will function pretty well as a paring chisel.

Mike

[Chris Friesen]

I wonder if you could do only part of the blade in PMV11 with the rest in a cheaper steel? Realistically the whole point of a paring chisel is the long blade, so it wouldn't be the end of the world to only have half the blade be PMV11.

[Ryan Baker]

I'll jump in say that I also would really like to see LV (or anyone) bring some goo long, thin, non-cranked, traditional parers back to the market -- except for the octagon handles (I hate octagon handles). PMV11 would be nice, but I don't even care if it has that. I would be plenty happy with O1 or A2 as long as it is respectably hard. The stuff on the market now is way too soft for whatever reason. LV could do so much better.

Has anybody actually used those Narex paring chisels. It's the first time I have seen one. How are they in the hardness department?

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'll jump in say that I also would really like to see LV (or anyone) bring some goo long, thin, non-cranked, traditional parers back to the market
Well Lee Valley do actually sell such a beast. It's not Veritas of course but still a parer. Not sure on the metal though.

Sorby Boxwood-Handled Paring (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30014&cat=1,41504) Chisels
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[David Weaver]

Personally, I'd wait to see what paring chisels LV is coming out with before buying sorby chisels. The feedback on them is far too inconsistent and seems to tend toward the negative.

[Ryan Baker]

Those Sorby ones are the worst. I have one. They look good, but they are riduclously soft. If you want new ones today, they best I have seen are the Taylors. (I haven't used the Blue Spruce offering.) Vintage is an option if you can find what you are looking for amongst the junk. Those Narex ones might have potential, but are probably pretty heavy (thick).