Knot in table top - need newbie type help

[Tony Wilkins]

Got to the board that I was going to use for the last third to my tabletop on my little shaker side table. Daggnabbit it's got three small knots in it. My wife said she didn't mind but I'm wondering if it's going to give me problems. Will it?

My other option would be hand resawing in half the 8/4 I got to get the legs out of.

TIA,
Tiny

[Adam Cruea]

Problems in planing, gluing, or finishing?

How far do the knots go? If they're through-and-through, when shrinkage occurs, you could have a hole in your table.

Expect that when planing, the grain around the knot will not be kind and may go every-which-way-but-straight. You'll also probably chew up your plane blade pretty well.

[Tony Wilkins]

Problems in planing, gluing, or finishing?

How far do the knots go? If they're through-and-through, when shrinkage occurs, you could have a hole in your table.

Expect that when planing, the grain around the knot will not be kind and may go every-which-way-but-straight. You'll also probably chew up your plane blade pretty well.

Pretty much what I was expecting. Don't think they are all the way through but they are on the side I need up.

[steven c newman]

leave the knots264987sometimes they add to the piece.

[Tony Wilkins]

My piece is walnut. How hard will the knots be on my planes?

[Sam Stephens]

small tight knots i don't worry about. After all, it is wood. If the knots have any cracks or are loose, I fill with epoxy which can be colored -usually black- w/ dye, coffee grounds, etc. It really just depends on the overall design and wood type.

[george wilson]

Some regard knots as figure. We have an 18th.C. Kirkman harpsichord lathe in the Governor's Mansion in Williamsburg that has a 2" knot in the lid.

[Steve Friedman]

My piece is walnut. How hard will the knots be on my planes?
Knots won't affect your planes at all, but the blades may need sharpening when you're done.

Seriously, Sam's right. It's wood. Wood has knots. they add character. Just get the blades super sharp and go at it. If the knots are loose, or have voids in them, epoxy works.

Steve

[Kees Heiden]

Another vote for keeping the knots. I love knots. The grain is also always more interesting around them.

Get your plane blade very sharp. The knots are harder then the rest of the wood. And a sharp blade helps against tearout. Set the chipbreaker really really really close to the edge. The blade should be barely visible. That's a great help against tearout too.

[Jim Matthews]

I plane knots to the same surface depth as the surrounding clear grain.

Most of the knots I encounter are in cherry, and they alternate grain direction.
To manage them, I lean on a scraper. If there are voids, I fill them with slow setting epoxy tinted either black or with dust from the adjoining section.

If the knot doesn't go all the way through, it should be stable.
If it goes through (the start of a branch) it will eventually fall out.

Those I bore out and replace with a through dowel.

[Bryan Schwerer]

I vote for stabilize and leave. I've felt the same thing before with knots. Everything stands out on bare wood. It's amazing what a little finish will do to tone it down and give it character.

[Jim Koepke]

Seldom is on of my pieces knot free.

They bring character to a piece if they are not falling out.

After working with them for a while, it is easy to see which need gluing and which will stay without anything more than the finish.

jtk

[Andrae Covington]

Got to the board that I was going to use for the last third to my tabletop on my little shaker side table. Daggnabbit it's got three small knots in it. My wife said she didn't mind but I'm wondering if it's going to give me problems. Will it?

Sounds like we're building something similar, and I had the same issue. When I chose a board to make the tops for two little side tables, I thought there was enough clear material between the knots. I avoided the largest ones, but couldn't avoid them all. So this top has some small but ugly knots on the underside. By the time they get through to the show side, they're pin knots or just a swirl.

265034265033

Because of all the reversing grain (even without the knots), I used a high-angle blade in my smoothing plane and set the mouth tight and depth fine. The board had already been surface planed when I bought it and was approximately the thickness I wanted, so I didn't have to hog off a lot of material, just clean it up with the smoother. As others have said, the knots can take a toll on your blades. I'm repeating what others have said but reducing the depth of cut, setting the chipbreaker close if it's a bevel-down plane, tightening the mouth, using a high-angle blade, any of those will help.

[Frank Drew]

For a contrary opinion: Any more than a tight pin knot is more than I want in a piece, certainly nothing that has to be glued in place or that has cracks that need filling; clear (knot free) lumber has always carried a premium.

[Winton Applegate]

Ha, ha
Sorry, i just had to get that out.

I will throw out some stuff to think about looking into ect.:
Try to find the Norm Abrams New Yankee Workshop episode on cypress and using "Dutchmans" . Which are inlaid thick veneer patches. Done right, as Norm shows you, it is a good way to go. Once you practice and if you take your time and select the wood grain properly you can practically make the out line of the patch disappear and the grain blend in. There are even some foe tricks to make it absolutely blend in.


Next . . . try wetting the knots with , in order of preference but use only one, denatured alcohol, paint thinner or water. The wet wood cuts much, much easier. The thinners don't rust your planes but if you work in a shop with poor ventilation as i do then the water is the way to go and just dry and oil your plane immediately as soon as you stop planing.


The advice of using a steeper angle blade was a good one. The cutting angle for knots needs to be steeper and the sharpening angle needs to be wider (more obtuse).

[Pedro Reyes]

Aren't knots just places where a branch was growing out? That would make them a spot endgrain on facegrain and explain the difficulty planing them, so I was a bit confused by the steeper angle comment.

To the question, I think they work in some pieces.

/p

[Jim Matthews]

Higher angles of attack mean that there's less lifting action in the cut.

If I'm having trouble with a knot that I can't scrape, I use a toothed plane.
My favorite is set at 90 degrees.

[Tony Wilkins]

I use wood planes so I'm at York pitch with all my planes.

[Winton Applegate]

Aren't knots just places where a branch was growing out? That would make them a spot endgrain on facegrain and explain the difficulty planing them, so I was a bit confused by the steeper angle comment.

That's what I love about this forum. You call me on (unintended) BS or if I don't think before I speak. Keep me honest by all means.
Well I didn't think that through but from experience I find that what I said is about right. Here are some arguments to defend it :

• For hard stuff end grain I find 35° sharpening angle to hold up well, chisel or plane.
• On a bevel down 45° bedded plane that leaves 10° of clearance. Even less when we go with the popular free hand sharpening nonsense . . . I mean . . . errrr "technique" of rounding the bevel.
• Twelve or more degrees of clearance is better.
• The steeper bed angle provides that when using a 35° sharpening angle.

ALSO
And I suppose it could be back pedaling on my part, the grain around a knot is going every which way and a steeper blade is going to tear out less.

[Winton Applegate]

Wooden body planes
I might as well hog the hell out of the thread; I always seem to windup doing that any way.
How do wooden body planes hold up to planing figured wood dampened with thinner or water ? Do they get sick or work OK ?

[Chris Vandiver]

If you dampen the knot with hot water it will greatly help planing. This does two things, it tightens the surrounding grain and it softens the knot, making planing much easier and more predictable. To apply, use a rag dipped in hot water and rung out to just damp. Wooden planes work great for this technique(as do iron bodied planes).


Dutchman patching of a knot can look good too, if it's done skillfully but it is still just hiding the imperfection. It is a more appropriate method for architectural work than it is for fine furniture, IMHO.

[Kees Heiden]

If the blade is sharp, you can plane endgrain with an high angle blade. If the blade is sharp, you can plane almost anything with every plane.

Around the knot the grain is often pretty wild, so tearout is avery real possibility. A high angle can help in this regard. But I don't have high angle planes, so I do everything with my trustworthy Stanleys and wooden 45 degeree planes. That works admirably well. I control any tearout issues with setting the chipbreaker a hair's width from the edge. Works admirably too.

The dampening of the fibers with water is a good idea, I should try that more often. The water can raise the grain of course, but I presume with a a sharp blade that isn't too much of a problem?

[Winton Applegate]

The water can raise the grain of course, but I presume with a a sharp blade that isn't too much of a problem?
Nah you are thinking of that OTHER style of woodworking where they smash up rocks into itsy bitsy little pieces and then glue all that to paper and rub the wood with it.
Can't imagine why but I hear it's true, people really do that.
I never have grain raising from wetting the wood because I never sand the wood. If one were to sand the wood and then plane after word there maybe/will/probably/for sure/be grit in the surface that will take out your nice sharp plane blades.

I suppose I get all specific with my sharpening and angles and stuff because most of what I have worked is purple heart and bubinga and with THOSE there isn't a hope in hades of planing with most planes. High angle bevel down and or bevel up with a bevel angle more than 40° is really the only practical solution.

I have farted around with chip breakers and back bevels but it winds up just that. These woods can be, at times, so abrasive to blades one has to have a stack of them and change out to get any where. Grinding all those blades with cambers to fit one or two chip breakers to a thou or two is just mind numbing. I would rather skip it.

[Chris Hachet]

Another vote for keeping the knots. I love knots. The grain is also always more interesting around them.

Get your plane blade very sharp. The knots are harder then the rest of the wood. And a sharp blade helps against tearout. Set the chipbreaker really really really close to the edge. The blade should be barely visible. That's a great help against tearout too.I would echo this. If I wanted furniture without knots, there is always plywood....

[Pat Barry]

Knots have their place so if you feel they belong in your project great, if not, you might as well bite the bullet and start over. Could be those knots will bug you forever.