Which cabinet saw?

[bob cohen]

I will be replacing my delta unisaw in the next few months. I'm currently leaning towards the saw stop industrial, but am also considering the new unisaw, and hammer and felder sliding table saws. A very important factor for me, which is often not discussed, is the ease at which the saws can be accurately adjusted, e.g., aligning saw blade parallel to miter track. This is the main reason why I prefer the unisaw over the PM2000 and the sawstop ICS over the professional. I know very little about how easy or hard it is to make fine tune adjustments on the sliding saws. Your comments in this regard would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Roy Harding]

I have a Felder sliding combo - (CF531 Professional). I also used a Sawstop cabinet saw extensively when I was in trades school.

I liked the Sawstop - not because of the safety features, but because of the solid engineering and quality production values of the saw. I was considering getting one, as I was very impressed. And then (at the same trades school), I was introduced to sliders, and was immediately converted.

As far as set up and adjustment goes - I've had my Felder for five years. I recall spending three days with calipers, feeler gauges, the manual, as well as "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for Felder 700 series (this last Guide I purchased from an online source). But - mine was a combo machine - so I was setting up a jointer, a planer, a shaper, as well as the slider. It's also worth noting that much of that time was spent "fooling around" with the machine to understand its functions, best practices for getting things done, etcetera.

I haven't had to adjust anything since - and I do check for accuracy every few months. I've accidentally dropped sheets of 3/4" MDF on the slider, and I don't take any better care of my equipment than anybody else - but I've NEVER had to make an adjust since that first set-up session (and machine works 8 - 10 hours a day, six days a week).

The thing to keep in mind with a slider is that you need a lot of room for it. My shop was designed around the Felder. The space dedicated to it is approximately 20 Feet X 15 Feet - but that's because of the Jointer/Planer which requires clearance in the "back" of the saw. If you got the slider only, you'd still need the 20 Feet (at least - mine only has the capacity for a 74 inch cut - so I can't cut a sheet of plywood lengthways - that works for me), but you wouldn't need as wide a space as I have. It seems to me that Felder has a chart of recommended footprints on their site.

I don't think you'd go wrong with any of the machines you're looking at (I've never worked with a Hammer, but I understand that they are a slightly less "industrial" line of their Felder and Format 4 branded machines) - best of luck to you.

[bob cohen]

Hi Roy, I guess I expected that the felder would hold up exceptionally well to normal use, but its nice to hear from any experienced user nonetheless. Space is an issue for me, and I would also not be able to accomodate a full length slider. Is it worth the money to invest in a felder, if I cannot accommodate more than a 79" slider? Would it be like buying a mercedes just drive around the block? The only time I work with sheet goods is when I'm making shop equipment, but I like the idea of using the slider for straight line ripping as well.

[Roy Harding]

Hi Roy, I guess I expected that the felder would hold up exceptionally well to normal use, but its nice to hear from any experienced user nonetheless. Space is an issue for me, and I would also not be able to accomodate a full length slider. Is it worth the money to invest in a felder, if I cannot accommodate more than a 79" slider? Would it be like buying a mercedes just drive around the block? The only time I work with sheet goods is when I'm making shop equipment, but I like the idea of using the slider for straight line ripping as well.

For me - the length of the slider was not an issue. I can barely remember the last time I needed to cut the full length of a sheet of plywood - and on those RARE occasions that I do need to, I go back to the way I used to do it (IE - straight edge and skil saw). So - the required length of the slider is entirely dependant upon what it is you do with it.

If you're looking at straight line ripping - get two of the eccentric clamps from Felder if/when you order it. When I ordered mine, I made an issue of it - and they threw them in for me at no charge. With the two clamps, you can clamp a board down, make a straight line rip - and carry on cutting to width with the parallel fence. I make a LOT of glued up panels - and with a decent blade I rarely joint an edge.

When I bought mine (about five years ago), they were all made to order. IE - you don't just walk into the local distributor and take it home. As I recall, I waited about nine months to have it built and delivered. Whether that has changed or not, or whether that method of purchase only applied to my circumstances (I live in a fairly remote area - did everything online and on the telephone), I don't know.

I DO know that when it first arrived, I had many questions - and the service I received via email was exceptional (as it should be - I dropped $20K on it) - but that may have more to do with the individual distributor I was dealing with than Felder itself.

I found the machine to be a lot of money - but I haven't been disappointed in it, or had any regrets since.

[Robert Chapman]

I have a SawStop Professional and the adjustments for aligning the saw blade to the miter track are easy and accurate. The table top fasteners are loosened and the top adjusted using allen screws - easy and accurate. No tapping on the top to adjust. I really like my SawStop - its engineering and user friendliness are amazing - and it's hard to cut yourself with the power on. I have a Jessem slider attachment on the left wing which works very well for me.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm not sure what the objective is, but one option not mentioned would be one of the big old table saws. Northfield, Oliver, etc. I don't know much about any of them, but I would think that since they were used in patternmakers shops, they would be very accurate. Just a thought.

[scott spencer]

There's not a lemon on your list...the way I see it, the Saw Stop's safety feature is nearly free at that price point, and is a heck of a nice bonus if needed. The alignment process should be a once and done deal, and none should be very difficult.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a Hammer B3 Winner with the 50" slider in a small basement shop.

It replaced a General saw and General shaper.

They are far more space efficient than a cabinet saw, and have far greater cpabilities.

You couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.

The smaller sliders have a small foot print, and when I need to cross cut sheets, or desk tops, or doors I put the outrigger on, which takes about 2 minutes, then take it off again.

Watch the Felder saw/combination machine videos, all of them, as well as the Hammer videos.

I'm sure you'll be convinced..............Rod.


P.s., the outrigger with scoring saw is the cat's whiskers for sheet goods.

[Steve Keathley]

I just got a PM 64B a couple of weeks ago. Not a PM2000, but the adjustments are basically the same. Fornunately, the table was perfectly square to the blade right out of the box, so I didn't have to adjust the table. But it didn't look too difficult even using a rubber mallet. Like someone said, one and done. Squaring the fence was a piece of cake as was the blade tilt. Runout was .035 which I'm told is well within acceptable so I didn't mess with that.

All in all, I spent about an hour and a half tuning the saw. It wasn't hard at all and my first time doing it.

Not any bad choices in your list though. I looked at just about everything for 6 months and narrowed it down to the Saw Stop contractor and PM64. It was a tough call. Very happy with my choice so far.

[Erik Loza]

...Space is an issue for me, and I would also not be able to accomodate a full length slider....
...The only time I work with sheet goods is when I'm making shop equipment..
...but I like the idea of using the slider for straight line ripping as well.

When a customer who already owns a functional table saw tells me these three things, above, my reply to them is that they need a better bandsaw rather than a sliding table saw. A cheaper and more practical solution in this case.

Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Tom Hintz]

I also have the SawStop Professional cabinet swaw and it is very easy to adjust the miter slot to the blade, but so was my PM2000, both just have the four bolts that loosen the top. the sawStop is a better machine in all regards, not just the bade brake. they did a lot of engineering when they designed this saw, lots of good ideas that have been very well done in manufacturing. I love it.

[Rick Potter]

Hey Tom,

I just wanted to thank you for that kickback video. That and your video on the SawStop pushed me over the edge, to really check into it. I bought one, and I am hoping to put it together next week.

Rick Potter

[Roy Harding]

When a customer who already owns a functional table saw tells me these three things, above, my reply to them is that they need a better bandsaw rather than a sliding table saw. A cheaper and more practical solution in this case.

...

I hear what you're saying. I own two bandsaws, one is used exclusively for resawing, and the other for general "bandsaw" tasks. I love both of them, and wouldn't want to be without either of them.

However - on neither of them can II rip two pieces of wood, put glue on the cut edges, clamp them up, and have a good glue joint. I CAN do that operation on either of my table saws (both the slider I mentioned earlier, AND the little "Trademaster" low budget, cheaper than hell contractor saw that I keep around pretty much exclusively for dados, rabbets, and tenons).

To successfully accomplish the same operation with a bandsaw would (in my experience) require a jointer in addition to the saw.

[Jim Andrew]

I put up with a nasty old Craftsman table saw for years before getting a new Unisaw about 9 years ago, can't imagine why I would consider getting rid of mine.

[Erik Loza]

I own two bandsaws, one is used exclusively for resawing, and the other for general "bandsaw" tasks.... on neither of them can II rip two pieces of wood, put glue on the cut edges, clamp them up, and have a good glue joint....

This bent-lam glue-up...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/BSStraightline014.jpg

...came from these, which are off a stock Minimax bandsaw with a 1.0" Lenox Tri-Master...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SamplestripsofLyptus.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SeparatingstripsofLyptus.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samwithnewlaminatestrips.jpg

Just sayin'...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Tom Hintz]

Hey Tom,

I just wanted to thank you for that kickback video. That and your video on the SawStop pushed me over the edge, to really check into it. I bought one, and I am hoping to put it together next week.

Rick Potter
Good deal Rick. I think you are going to be very happy with the SawStop! It really is muchn more than the blade brake.

[Roy Harding]

This bent-lam glue-up...


...came from these, which are off a stock Minimax bandsaw with a 1.0" Lenox Tri-Master...

Just sayin'...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Nice work - I would have to run those through the wide drum sander before glue-up.

We all have our own methods of work, and our own "go-to" tools for various tasks. This fact makes none of us right, and none of us wrong.

I would suggest, however, that for MOST woodworkers - achieving glue ready rips straight from the saw is more easily accomplished with a table saw than a bandsaw. This may be because of lack of exposure to the capability of a properly tuned bandsaw, could be the way we were taught in the beginning stages of our woodworking experiences, could be that once we had a method that worked (table saw), we didn't pursue the possibility of alternate methods (bandsaw) - I don't know.

[Brian Brightwell]

I bought a laguna table saw about 10 years ago. I like the saw alot but I had to correct the blade to the miter slot. I think it is something that should have been factory done. It was taper pinned at the factory but was not correct. The saw is very robust.

[Mike Wilkins]

Hard to imagine leaving a Unisaw for another machine, but that is exactly what I did. Thousands of furniture projects have been completed with a cabinet saw, but like me, many folks have gotten the itch for a slider. These machines really excel at crosscutting operations. My machine (Laguna Pro 6' sider) has a capacity of 60", which is fine for my small shop (16 X 24). If I need to I can use the outrigger and fence for cutting to length long boards and plywood, move the rip fence for good old fashioned ripping and even dadoes. I have only had to make one adjustment on my machine; leveling the main table to the sliding table. It is about one cats' whisker lower than the sliding table to reduce friction when crosscutting. Short stroke sliders make sense in a small shop, but if the lottery gods ever decide to bless me, a slider with 8' capacity will be my next machine. And you can keep the Unisaw for joinery tasks, such as dadoes, cove molding, rabbets, etc.

[Brian Elfert]

I will be replacing my delta unisaw in the next few months. I'm currently leaning towards the saw stop industrial, but am also considering the new unisaw, and hammer and felder sliding table saws. A very important factor for me, which is often not discussed, is the ease at which the saws can be accurately adjusted, e.g., aligning saw blade parallel to miter track. This is the main reason why I prefer the unisaw over the PM2000 and the sawstop ICS over the professional. I know very little about how easy or hard it is to make fine tune adjustments on the sliding saws. Your comments in this regard would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I'm curious why one would get rid of an existing Unisaw for a new Unisaw or a Sawstop? I could understand if you are upgrading to slider. Why do you think the Sawstop professional cabinet saw couldn't be aligned properly?

I just have a crappy old Crafstman table saw so I have no real suggestions. I would probably buy a Sawstop if I was buying a cabinet saw personally and had the money.

[Rick Potter]

Here's my take Bob,

I also had a Unisaw, but fell in love with the Felder. Because I had room for both, I bought my KF700 Pro and kept the Unisaw. The Felder is a wonderful saw and I really like it, BUT....it turned out that I am untrainable, and I use my Unisaw 20/1 over the Felder. I never thought it work out that way, but it did. I have agonized over what to do for several years, and considered selling the Felder several times, but I couldn't do it, there is no way I could ever afford anything like it again.

After a member posted Tom Hintz' amazing kickback video, I got real serious about getting a SawStop. Yes, I realize the SS would not stop the kickback much better than my Uni with the Beis splitter. What got to me was seeing how close his hand came to the blade. That decided it for me, and I bought the SawStop, which I will start assembling today. I have finally gotten off the fence, and made the decision to sell the Felder. It will be on the Classifieds shortly. Let me say again...it is a wonderful machine, and may be just what you need, I simply don't use mine like I should. If you decide to get a Felder, Carl Knapp is a very helpful guy...c.knapp@felder.com

I will again keep the Uni, and just use it for dado work. With proper push blocks, of course.

This is my decision, based on my needs, your mileage may vary.


Hope this helps,
Rick Potter

[Mike Shields]

I had a KF700 (2011 model) with a 98" table. I had the saw commissioned by Felder. This tables base has 4 adjustments, 2 at each end of the table. The table never ran true to the blade. The tech said the runout was just outside of spec, but was acceptable. After he left, I did my own measurements, and determined that it was not good enough, and had to be adjusted. Then I realized why he didn't adjust it; it's a nightmare. I spent hours adjusting. The table base on this model mounts on convex washers, so as soon as you tighten everything up, it moves.

22,000 dollars and a poor design. At least when you get it right, tighten it down, and it will cut flawless.

[David Zaret]

i recently went through this same calculation - i have a good canadian-made General 650, but wanted to upgrade. i looked hard at euro sliders, and decided to go with a Martin slider instead of Felder. one of the reasons is setup - setup on the Martin is actually quite simple, and, not surprisingly, it holds true over time. you pay a bit more upfront for a Martin, but the quality and resale value made it worth it to me.

good luck with whatever you decide.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Roy, I guess I expected that the felder would hold up exceptionally well to normal use, but its nice to hear from any experienced user nonetheless. Space is an issue for me, and I would also not be able to accomodate a full length slider. Is it worth the money to invest in a felder, if I cannot accommodate more than a 79" slider? Would it be like buying a mercedes just drive around the block? The only time I work with sheet goods is when I'm making shop equipment, but I like the idea of using the slider for straight line ripping as well.

Hi, I purchased a Hammer B3 Winner to fit in a small shop.

It definetly is worth buying a shorter slider, especially if you get one that can crosscut a sheet of plywood.

Think of table tops etc, all of them can be crosscut on a small slider.

Small sliders also have an ergonomic advantage in that they have a square base like a cabinet saw, and therefore have better ergonomics when ripping hardwood than the larger saws.

Don't get me wrong, a 10 foot slider would be great, however a short slider is so much better in every respect that a cabinet saw, that's really a no brainer decision.

My Hammer has been going for several years without adjustment, the Felder will be even better...........Regards, Rod.

[Kelly Colin Mark]

Hey Tom,

I just wanted to thank you for that kickback video. That and your video on the SawStop pushed me over the edge, to really check into it. I bought one, and I am hoping to put it together next week.

Rick Potter
Wanted to second Rick's thanks for the video. It was frightening and enlightening and the same time, esp. vis a vis the common argument that Sawstop technology does little to protect against kickback. In this case, it could have protected against an amputation or deep cut.