How to make this 36" radius profile...

[Michael Dunn]

Hey guys!!!

How would I go about making this profile? I have a Woodmaster WM-718, but would like to NOT spend however much money on a custom cutter.

What do you recommend?

[Dave Richards]

You could do it much like a boat builder would make a round spar out of a square piece of wood. They would start by marking out for an octagon and planing the corners off to the marks. Then they would plane off the corners of the octagon and plane off those corners and keep going until it is round.

This seems like a thing where you need to decide how much is your time is worth. Maybe a custom cutter is cheaper than your time is worth...or not.

[Mel Fulks]

I can't tell what we're looking at.Is that the cross section and you need it made in 36 inch plan view radius?

[Michael Dunn]

To my understanding the face of the bar rail and the top of the bar rail need to be a 36" radius. If that makes any sense.

[Michael Dunn]

Oh and they need 31' of this. They say they will stain it, poly it, pick it up and install it themselves.

[Mel Fulks]

I've made radius bar rails but never seen any with that large an over lap on the bar. I don't think it makes sense. I would make sure that all the straight sections have not already been done with that big rabbet and now they want you to do the hard part.

[Peter Quinn]

I feel like I've missed part if the story. As Mel asked, are these radiused corners, or straights? 31lf of radius would have to be a large square or rectangle. You need cutters to make this economically. You won't be buying any cutters, the client will, or they will be going to a manufacturer that already has them. The radius of the molding cannot be 36" if that drawing is anything close to correct. Maybe a small segment is, but much of it simply is not. This job will take a big shaper, a big bearing, maybe two guys pushing, a lot of time into a carraige to get past the big cutters..... The cutter charge is marginal compared to the labor, not a real concern. If its a radius corner. If its all straights have it run on a molder in two pieces with a tongue and groove locator at the intersection, glue it up in your shop, add 10%, done. If they are worked about cutter or molding charges.....politely decline.

[Mel Fulks]

Peter,I think the drawing is just a profile section. Looks to me the profile is not rounded enough to be worth the trouble and the rabbet is way too deep. Needs some refining and a list of the NET INSTALLED LENGTHS of the straight stuff.

[mreza Salav]

Like others I have trouble understanding what you say. Do you mean the radius of that 5.25" curve (cross-section of the profile?) is 36"? In other words you need a 5.25" high profile that is section of a circule with 36" radius? and you need 31' straight of that? Then your drawing doesn't make sense to have the top profile to be part of the same circle (i.e. 36" radius) as it would have to be a 3/4 of a circle.
Or is that the cross-section of the profile you want and it goes on a round top that has 36" radius? then how can it be 31'?

[Harvey Melvin Richards]

I understand the OP just fine. I would make it like Dave Richards said. Draw it up in CAD, or the old fashioned way, and figure out the angles that need to be knocked off and plane the rest. I would also make a hard template of the opposite of the finished shape, so you can check things as you progress. And make extra, it's difficult to reproduce multiple set-ups.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't think op has the install. Without it I would not include any extra ,only offer it at extra cost. Thats why I insist on the list of net installed lengths. I don't accept any orders of "two 16 foot pieces should do it". I want to use the material on hand if possible.

[Jim Matthews]

... and the rabbet is way too deep.

My first take on this, as well. Were I to make something like this, it would be two profiles glued together with a long grain face joint.
If grain match is problematic, a subtly contrasting fillet along the glue line might be nice.

I would make this by hand, planed as described elsewhere and fitted to the installed top - which may not be itself be flat.

If you've got long clear boards of straight grain, it's calling out for resawing.

The curves are gentle enough that you could cut a scraper to act as both the template and final smoothing step.

Pictures would be nice - it sounds interesting.

[David Winer]

Dave Richards proposes the boat builders method for making spars. I like that too, but how to make all the cuts along the length? I suggest using a radial arm saw in rip mode with a dado blade.

Make a thin profile for the exact curve wanted. Use that piece to set the RAS for distance from the fence and angle needed to match the profile. Run the long workpiece against the dado and nibble in successive cuts to reach close enough for hand planing to the desired profile. Width of dado influences the number of passes and patience needed.

[Sam Murdoch]

I would consider making 2 radiused sections - 1 face and 1 top, then miter them together with dominos for alignment.

[Mort Stevens]

Would a lathe work? Take a 4x6 piece of wood, rabbit out the notch you need to fit the bar, then glue up enough pieces into an octagon (rough round shape) by mitering the ends, then mount it on a 'wheel' of plywood on a faceplate. At that point just turn your profile, remove from the plywood, and cut to length.

[dan sherman]

I think we need some more input, as no way is that left curve even close to scale at 5 1/4 height.

[Mark Bolton]

More information is right.. The term "radius" implies a curved molding, at least to me. The 36" radius part makes one wonder (as I think others are) if these are simply curved sections to wrap a corner coming into a bought profile. If so I'd be carefull as they likely know what these will cost and are hoping for you to be hungry and or make a mistake. Opting out of a set of molder knives is a little odd as a 300 investment in knives (paid for by the customer) would make life monumentally easier.

[Jeff Duncan]

The way the question is worded is, I believe, leading to a lot of confusion. Unless I'm mistaken he's not looking to do a radiused molding, but to profile this straight molding to a particular radius. Now part of the problem is that the drawing is not even close to being a 36" radius.....maybe a 12"-14" radius???? Hard to tell without spending some time that to be quite honest I don't have.

The short answer is when you run custom molding like this the client pays for the knives....period, end of story. If you don't want to buy the knives send them on their way to someone else. Not trying to sound mean, but in business you spend money to make money. Trying to do this any other way is very likely not going to go all that well:( To me that looks like a minimum of 2 passes through an industrial shaper or multi head molder plus some other misc milling to get it to that profile. I'm ball parking from a quick look in the neighborhood of $400-$600 just for knives and setup fees before you even add in per foot labor and material cost.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Ditto what Jeff has said....sort of what I said earlier. Lets reiterate the OP stated 31LF were needed at some point. So he's not making a 31 footer.......maybe two 16' sections if its straights, which has yet to be clarified. And some are suggesting hand planing this? I'd like to see him make money hand planing 31' of this compound curve. Hope its mahogany and not white oak or worse. At that height and vantage point it will be real easy to get a read on any inaccuracies too, so you almost have to join the sections and plane them together. Not everyone has 40LF of clear run to do that sort of thing. Some moldings sit in such a way that you just can't tell if they are a little flawed. Bar rail? Thats sits just the way I'd place something to tell if it needs work. We sent out a small sample of a similarly sized molding recently, some huge window sill or such. No way the boss was sinking $300 into steel for 3LF of sample. So a mechanic made it just as described, progressive angle cuts to simulate the radius, then block plane, hand scrape, sand. Took 4-5 hours to make 3 LF. $65/hour.......see where I'm going with this? Most expensive molding in America if they were paying for it. It looked great, surely does work, but not without issues on the volume the OP has described. If someone asked for one corner to match an existing, I'd consider breaking out the hand planes to git er done, go all old timey, but 31 feet of that monster bar rail? I'm all about hand work where it makes sense.

[johnny means]

I assume the OP needs to make a moulding with that profile to fit a 36' radiused bartop.

I would build up a blank using miter joints. Probably 1" thick. Then I woubuild another course on top of that, offsetting the joints. Then another and another until I has the required thickness. Sort of like building a curved brick wall. I would then use a 36" trammel to rout the face and inside edge using whatever assortment of bits got me closest to my finished profile. I would finish up with a handground scratchstock cut to my finished profile.

I would then collect the remainder of the kings ransom

[Pat Barry]

He says he has to make the profile shown and we can all see that it is a hand drawing, probably not to scale. He says he needs to make 31 ft of this. He never says 1 continuous 31 foot long piece. If it has to be that long then you will obviously need a lot of space to produce it, but the answer to how to do it is the same either way. Making the profile needs to be done with a shaper, right? That's the logical answer. No one is going to hand plane something like this, lets be real. It would seem prudent to do as others have suggested and laminate some pieces to make the starting profile.

[Mark Bolton]

Making the profile needs to be done with a shaper, right?

A shaper or a molder. He said he has a woodmaster. You could also us a W&H (or clone) or of course a production machine. I would opt for the molder if it were me.

[Michael Dunn]

Even if I had a lathe, it would be much too time consuming.


Would a lathe work? Take a 4x6 piece of wood, rabbit out the notch you need to fit the bar, then glue up enough pieces into an octagon (rough round shape) by mitering the ends, then mount it on a 'wheel' of plywood on a faceplate. At that point just turn your profile, remove from the plywood, and cut to length.

[Michael Dunn]

264847264848264849I just realized they sent more pictures of what they're trying to replicate. They need 31' lineal feet of this bar rail. It will definitely be at least two pieces, probably three pieces.

Make sense now?

[Peter Quinn]

36" radius makes sense for the corners, still not for the molded edge. 31LF makes sense for the total length. Notice how perfect those transitions are between straights and curves? Thats the kind of accuracy you can get with big knives, a shaper, and the right jigs, not so much with the hand planes. You could make a very accurate story pole to mark field dimensions, then build the whole thing in your shop, include construction breaks where appropriate, make saw horses or such to mock up the bar, hog it close with your weapons of choice (BS, TS, dado, skill saw, etc.), finish with hand planes, belt sander, scrapers, angle grinder. I certainly would't buy a shaper if one is not in your shop already for one job. I'd look into buying the straights from a bar top place, I looked into bar moldings for a guy doing a side job who has all the machines imaginable at his disposable but still didn't want to make it. There are specialty firms out there that stock bar moldings in lots of profiles, a few popped up in a google search. I say this not to be discouraging, but perhaps you can outsource the straights, add 10%, make the curves.....nice manageable job. Kenny Rodgers gave great business advice.....you got to know when to hold up.....know when to fold up.....know when to run.


PS, I would not make that vertical section in one pass on a small molder or shaper in any event, I'm thinking either waste the corners first or multi pass approach.

[Jim Matthews]

http://www.curvedmouldings.com/profiles.html

wh-356-HR is close.

I'm curious what you would find, beneath that heavy finish.
Not my sort of thing (production work, or long moldings) but when did these become machine-made?

Not to be dense, but if a shop didn't have big knives and a shaper the size of a battleship - why couldn't this simple profile be made by hand?
We're not talking about the front stairs at Tara - and it's finished dark enough that laminations would not be obvious.

A piece of card stock or sheet metal would be enough to make sure the profile is consistent.

[Mel Fulks]

Sure,it could be done by hand ,but I see it as shaper work. The last thing I did of that type was the 1150 type in your link.I find a lot of obvious lamination to be inelegant in bar rail . I used two layers of pinch dog glued faceted layers glued with the joints staggered. Bandsaw and on to shaper.

[Peter Quinn]

http://www.curvedmouldings.com/profiles.html

wh-356-HR is close.

I'm curious what you would find, beneath that heavy finish.
Not my sort of thing (production work, or long moldings) but when did these become machine-made?

Not to be dense, but if a shop didn't have big knives and a shaper the size of a battleship - why couldn't this simple profile be made by hand?
We're not talking about the front stairs at Tara - and it's finished dark enough that laminations would not be obvious.

A piece of card stock or sheet metal would be enough to make sure the profile is consistent.

Thats who we use at work for most curved things now. Bernie is great, his work is first rate, he does it cheaper , quicker and in most cases better than we could which represents a good value to the customer, which is what business is really about. When did this sort of thing become machine made? Around the 1860's to the best of my knowledge. There is a "molding museam" in my area... Used to take a team of four guys most of a day to make 16' of crown molding. Now it takes me about 2 hour set up and 45 seconds per piece, and mine is more consistent.

[Michael Dunn]

Ok. So I just got off the phone with the guy who drew up this crude profile drawing. It turns out that he wants me to make curved pieces that have a radius of 36". The profile itself is NOT a 36" radius like I initially thought. Over 5-1/4" that would be nearly dead flat and not serve much purpose. He is sending a new profile template soon.

Any tips on how to make this profile on a 36" radius right angle turn?

[Mark Bolton]

Ok. So I just got off the phone with the guy who drew up this crude profile drawing. It turns out that he wants me to make curved pieces that have a radius of 36". The profile itself is NOT a 36" radius like I initially thought. Over 5-1/4" that would be nearly dead flat and not serve much purpose. He is sending a new profile template soon.

Any tips on how to make this profile on a 36" radius right angle turn?

Oh lord.. I'm sudden hearing kenney Rogers music,.. Thanks Peter..

Michael, have you even talked cost with him?

[Michael Dunn]

No. Not at all. Aside from my minimum barge to come out and see the bar for measurements. I don't even know if I can do it yet. Let alone know what to charge?

[Mel Fulks]

Not sure how much more can be said about actually making it. You need to know if what you make is an alteration to the existing bar or a different bar close to existing. If different I would push to make profile perfectly round ,reduce rabbet size. I would use the brick method described before .To me pinch dogs are needed ,they are not expensive.

[Mark Bolton]

My guess was an expansion/alteration of the existing bar hence a match required

[Mel Fulks]

Mark,here at the creek we say "......you make an adz of Andy ,Don ,Zeke ,and you and me."

[Pat Barry]

Making a circular molding with this profile is certainly a horse of a different color. If you are having to make this molding go all the way (or even part of the way) around a rounded section of the bar I think you are in for a world of fun. I would think it would entail a router and a trammel and several setups to get the whole profile to a point where you would sand it to blend the router segments and smooth the profile out. All you want is the general contour, the appearance of continuity along the length and smooth to the touch.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark,here at the creek we say "......you make an adz of Andy ,Don ,Zeke ,and you and me."

My apologies Mel, but somehow the DNA strand that applies to getting/following jokes is missing from my sequence.. Its not to say I don't have sense of humor because I do but I'm just one of those that reads the above a dozen or so times but just doesn't get it :-) I'm the kinda guy you tell a joke to, I look at you with a blank stare, then three days later driving down the road alone I start to chuckle..

Still chunking away on it haha..

[Mel Fulks]

That's ok .People are always telling me I'm too subtle and mysterious.

[Mark Bolton]

What would be interesting here would be an informal poll of just a gut feeling of what one would expect to charge, or pay, for these pieces? Of course a single would be a lot but if the 31' speaks to roughly a half dozen of these (36" radius = about 30" per each) it would bring the price per unit down slightly.

Michael, if I were going to make these with your equipment (what I know of) I would break them into three pieces and run them on the woodmaster hopefully with a single knife but you may need two or three sets of knives depending on the actual profile if its a match job. Then glue them up and finish sand.

[Mark Bolton]

That's ok .People are always telling me I'm too subtle and mysterious.

A great thing for sure

[Mark Bolton]

Dont know the capacities of your woodmaster (max profile depth) but something like this for a crude two piece version. It would of course require an elliptical or radius jig as well. you may have to break it down into three or more depending on the woodmaster's capacity.

264882

[Peter Quinn]

No. Not at all. Aside from my minimum barge to come out and see the bar for measurements. I don't even know if I can do it yet. Let alone know what to charge?

The what to charge part is some what easy. First, get the section drawn accurately. Then fax it to curved moldings for a quick quote, get at least one other quote. Get an accurate list of the lengths involved. Get a drawing in plan view to keep things organized. You need these things anyway to get bids or quote it your self. The bids will help you decide what professionals who are equipped for this sort of work already charge, and help you decide if you want to do it yourself or not. I'd discuss ways to break up your curves from the flats, like a sort of plinth, so you don't have to match somebody else's flats exactly, that almost never works. When we need curves, we run the straits, get knives made by the same grinder to match, send these to the curved guy, with a sample of our straights to match.

If this is work you want to get into no time like the present to try. I would want to know what equipment you had before suggesting an approach, more than one way to attact this for sure. A good circle cutting jig on a BS or router on trammel is essential, or get the templates cut by a local CNC shop, can be quicker/cheaper some times, also very accurate.

[Jim Neeley]

Hey guys!!!

How would I go about making this profile? I have a Woodmaster WM-718, but would like to NOT spend however much money on a custom cutter.

What do you recommend?

They want 31' of this. Using a 36" radius, after 18.84' you would have a 360* circle. Therefore I approached it based on using multiple segments, each about 60* (1/6 of a circle). Ten of these segments would give you <gasp> 31.4' of rail.

My rough numbers would dictate that you would need a glued-up piece of stock 36"L x 8"W x 5-1/4"Th to make each segment. Because of the curvature you would get 38" of segment from the 36" piece of wood.

To get your rough blank you could make up a 60* template to trace onto the blank and cut it with a bandsaw and finalize the cut on a horizontal belt sander. Then you would be ready to cut the profile, which would be an independent issue.

If you wanted to make it in stacked layers you could glue up stock less than 5-1/4"Th and mold the different profiles on the sections and then glue them up.

Either way this is no small job so it should pay accordingly. It is also a job where you should allow in your price for the risk of human error and the likely need to re-make some aspects of it.

I'm not trying to disuade you from this job as it could be sort of fun; just make sure you account for the additional labor and risk here.

Jim

[Jeff Duncan]

Like most things in woodworking there are probably several ways to go about making this. Of course we still don't know exactly what's being made??? I'm going to hazard a guess that your running 31' of straight profile with a curved return at the end? I assume your making the rest of the top as well? Running the straight isn't bad, it's the curved section at the end that's going to be the fun part! I'm going to add a bit to what Peter and Jim mentioned in that it's OK to get a quote from someone else for a starting point.....however if you do go that route keep in mind your getting a quote from a shop already setup for this type of work with the knowledge of how to do it quickly, cleanly, and accurately. There's a very high possibility it's going to take you far longer and possibly waste a bit of material going through the learning curve.

As for me, I wouldn't have a problem running the straight stuff, if it's a true radius I'd do it in two passes on the shaper with the same set of knives. The curved return on the end would take some thought but probably several passes through the shaper with special made jigs. So based on my assumptions, your supplying the whole 31' top with a single curved return at the end made out of mahogany.....your probably looking at around $7-8k as a rough guess.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

The one that I did (model number referred to earlier in thread) took 70 hours of my time,plus time of finisher and installer.
Flat sawn soft maple glued up in two layers as mentioned earlier.Consisted of curved segment 16 feet long and several feet deep and several pieces of straight from 4 to 8 feet long .I had to mitre a straight piece onto each end of the segment.Shipped knocked down and pre finished. I did all sanding necessary to receive finish.Overall width of profile was about 5 and 3/4 inches. Used existing straight knives ,existing 2 inch diameter half round and special order top profile knife. All M2 corg in 4 inch head. The large segment was shaped in two sections then permanently bolted and glued before going in to finishing room. An extra step I insisted on was routing a heavy 1/16 off one layer before gluing ,leaving between 3/4 and 1 inch edge for glue .That guarantees there will be no joints opening over "case hardening ".To me that is important on something that will be wet wiped numerous times daily.

[Richard Wagner]

It sounds as though you are on a commissioned job. If so, buy a cutter and charge the customer accordingly. If you did not consider this in the quote - shame on you.

Yes, I know that I am being judgmental without knowing all the facts.

[Myk Rian]

Any tips on how to make this profile on a 36" radius right angle turn?
Steam bending after making the profile.

[Michael Dunn]

Steam bending after making the profile.

That's a good idea. Although, wouldn't it distort the profile to some extent?

[Myk Rian]

Not sure. I've never done it. Might have to custom make the top and lower edges on it.
I've seen a post where someone did a bar edge like that. Just don't remember where. I believe he made a jig in the shape of the bar corner and used that to rout the entire thing.
It didn't look like an easy job.

[Gary Janssen]

To make the curve laminate thin stock around a template until you have the right thickness then shape. The laminating will make it strong and very stable.

[jack forsberg]

I would turn the curve on the Lathe(face plate work)wood layed up in a brick work pattern. But i guess most here don't have a big pattern lathe like my Wadkin RS. I would grind full profile scrapers to finish the profile. It would dam near fit on the in board but the out board is nice with the mobile out board tool stand for this work. I guess if all you had was a small Oneway that machine could work too. Even a small lathe could do it with a router on a stand with casters and turning the work by hand(work this large should run 100rpm to 150rpm to be safe). That's how i would do it by hand but a CNC would be easy too. lots of guys looking for work like this kind for there CNC if that has not been mentioned yet. as i have not read the entire thread .Sorry

jack
English machines

[Michael Dunn]

Ok, so I finally got around to this bar for an estimate. It turns out what he claimed was a 36" radius was actually a 39" long curve. So I estimated that this 39" represents roughly 1/4 of the circumference of a circle. So 39"x4=156" a circumference. 156"/6.28 (2x3.14)=24.84" radius. Of course the other radius isn't identical so I can't make two exact pieces.

Do you think it would be possible to either kerf the back or steam bend the profile to fit this radius? I made some full size templates of each curve and have some exact measurements of the bar top as well.

Any thoughts?

[Michael Dunn]

Like most things in woodworking there are probably several ways to go about making this. Of course we still don't know exactly what's being made??? I'm going to hazard a guess that your running 31' of straight profile with a curved return at the end? I assume your making the rest of the top as well? Running the straight isn't bad, it's the curved section at the end that's going to be the fun part! I'm going to add a bit to what Peter and Jim mentioned in that it's OK to get a quote from someone else for a starting point.....however if you do go that route keep in mind your getting a quote from a shop already setup for this type of work with the knowledge of how to do it quickly, cleanly, and accurately. There's a very high possibility it's going to take you far longer and possibly waste a bit of material going through the learning curve.

As for me, I wouldn't have a problem running the straight stuff, if it's a true radius I'd do it in two passes on the shaper with the same set of knives. The curved return on the end would take some thought but probably several passes through the shaper with special made jigs. So based on my assumptions, your supplying the whole 31' top with a single curved return at the end made out of mahogany.....your probably looking at around $7-8k as a rough guess.

good luck,
JeffD

After visiting the bar in person today I know much more about what they are asking. It is all red oak. I measured and intentionally overestimated and measured about 42' LF.

Are you saying I should estimate the total job cost of $7k-$8k? Keep in mind they plan to have me only fab this for them. Although today he did say that it may be best for me to install it. I do not believe I'll be doing the staining or clear coating.

With that in mind what do you think I should charge? I know it's a hairy question and everyone's overhead is different. But still, I'd like a ball park estimate.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't think you stand a chance of steam bending ,making it has been covered. The biggest red flag to me the radius is not a true radius. Some one else can't cut some plywood accurately ,now they want you match their incompetence. All that needs to happen in a case like that is the same goof ball makes first cut too short ,then because of sloppy sawing the piece can't be used. I would take control of the job and and get some money up front or stop wasting my time.

[Michael Dunn]

I don't think you stand a chance of steam bending ,making it has been covered. The biggest red flag to me the radius is not a true radius. Some one else can't cut some plywood accurately ,now they want you match their incompetence. All that needs to happen in a case like that is the same goof ball makes first cut too short ,then because of sloppy sawing the piece can't be used. I would take control of the job and and get some money up front or stop wasting my time.

Great advice! I think I'll propose that I "re-radius" corners to a true radius and the same radius for each of the two radius end corners. I will also insist on being the one to install the bar rail. Perhaps I'll state the only way I'll offer any guarantee is if I install it myself.

Whaddaya tink?

How about advice on pricing? How much per LF for making the rail? How much to install?

[Mel Fulks]

Your best source for an estimate might be Jeff's guess or a quote from the reccomended company specializing in making that stuff. As posted earlier I keep some records of hours on odd ball jobs. But I'm sure I would be a lousy estimator. If it turns out that the curve is a neatly sawn ellipse ,you will have to match it ,but at a cost above what radiused would cost.

[Michael Dunn]

Your best source for an estimate might be Jeff's guess or a quote from the reccomended company specializing in making that stuff. As posted earlier I keep some records of hours on odd ball jobs. But I'm sure I would be a lousy estimator. If it turns out that the curve is a neatly sawn ellipse ,you will have to match it ,but at a cost above what radiused would cost.

I went to two places today. Both of them sub out to the same Millwork place in my area. Neither will do a custom radiused corner like I need. Neither have a profile even remotely close to what I need. Also, the bar rail profile that they have is much smaller and is only one piece. Their price was $17.84/LF It was 3-1/2" wide. Mine will be two pieces for the actual rail and a third piece to connect the bottom of the rail to the face of the bar. I'm estimating about 75 BD/FT of 6/4 Red Oak for the profile and 35 BD/FT of 3/4 for the connecting piece.

Obviously most of the labor will be in fabricating the custom radiused corner. As opposed to the straight runs. I imagine I'll be doing a lot of hand work to fine tune the fit and feel.

Anybody have some tips on this?

[Mel Fulks]

Besides Jeff's numbers I was referring to the company mentioned earlier. Don't remember the name and there's quite a pile of posts here ! You could base your quote on theirs. Mark it up and add your labor for install and finishing.

[Joseph Tarantino]

so what's the vig for all the forum members who are contributing their experience and ideas to your for profit commercial venture?

[Chris Fournier]

Not to be rude but it seems to me that you are in way over your head on this project. If you are asking people on the Internet how to undertake and cost out this job you are not qualified to do it. You will lose your shirt any any reputation you hope to gain in your marketplace.

Develop your skills and be honest about your abilities. You seem to be trying to punch over your weight class. You will get hurt.

[Michael Dunn]

Not to be rude but it seems to me that you are in way over your head on this project. If you are asking people on the Internet how to undertake and cost out this job you are not qualified to do it. You will lose your shirt any any reputation you hope to gain in your marketplace.

Develop your skills and be honest about your abilities. You seem to be trying to punch over your weight class. You will get hurt.

I appreciate your honesty. I now know what needs to be done to make this. I'm confident I can make it happen. My main issue now is just knowing what is a fair price to charge. I'm still learning some (much) of the business aspect of WW'ing.

[Michael Dunn]

so what's the vig for all the forum members who are contributing their experience and ideas to your for profit commercial venture?

What does vig mean?

[Mel Fulks]

Michael ,I see some validity and value in the criticisms. But I remember you are injured and need some 'light work'.Some guys have real talent for being a GC even dealing with trades they are not skilled in. Don't worry what a fair price is ,get solid detailed sub quote ,price it to make money. Good luck.

[Michael Dunn]

Michael ,I see some validity and value in the criticisms. But I remember you are injured and need some 'light work'.Some guys have real talent for being a GC even dealing with trades they are not skilled in. Don't worry what a fair price is ,get solid detailed sub quote ,price it to make money. Good luck.

Actually, my ankle is fine now. I took the partial cast off last Wednesday evening. It's much better. Just a bit of soreness. The ortho said it is most likely only a sprain.

The bruising is almost gone.

[Jeff Duncan]

I haven't finished my coffee yet so forgive me if I've missed it, but I still don't think we've seen a full description of the work involved? So far I believe your running a length of straight bar rail along with the curved returns on the ends? Are you also making the 2" thick bar top itself? How wide is that part of the bar? Is there the standard recessed tray on the inside edge of the top? What about the underlayment for the top? At such a tall profile you'll have to have the top glued but the bottom will have to float somehow to deal with movement. How are the seams going to be handled....assembled on site, or will the entire top be fabricated as a unit and delivered on a flat bed? I don't like to ball park too much without knowing what's being made.

The last bar top I had come in I sent to another guy down the road as I didn't have the time or space to make it. It was a basic L-shaped mahogany bar using standard bar rail and IIRC maybe a total of 25'. He bid it out at $5k. Different market though and if I had the time I probably could have done it a hair cheaper. What your bidding, (or what I think your bidding), is much more complicated and time consuming to pull off. So no, I'm not saying you should bid $7-$8k for this, I'm saying if it were in my market that's in the neighborhood of where you would be....maybe higher? I'd estimate how long you think it will take to build it, then double that number. You'll probably still come up short, but you may not lose your shirt;) As far as the install......my only advice is to avoid it. I still install most of what I produce and it's the one place where I consistently lose money:(

good luck,
JeffD

[Michael Dunn]

Here are some crude drawings... I am only doing the 3 piece rail at approximately 42 LF. The bar top is already built. Quite crudely I might add. The 'radius' is actually more of an ellipse. There are two curved corners.

I found some prices online. A Millwork place in Peoria, IL charges $332 for a CNC machined curved molding at. 6" radius. Mine is approximately a 24" radius. I put $650/ea for my handmade curved molding. The same place charges $21/LF for straight molding in Red Oak. A much smaller profile and is only one piece. My top piece is about 3" wide and the face profile is 5". Then there is the 7" connector piece that goes back to the bar structure.

I quoted $50/LF for the strait runs. I haven't sent the estimate yet. I'm still doing some homework. After I stallion, cutter charge, setup charge, etc... I'm just under $7k. Not staining or clear coating. I'll do it, but this estimate does not include it.

[Art Mann]

Hey Michael,

Let me recommend you download a free copy of Sketchup and take some time to learn to use it (if you haven't already). The design of this type of work just cries out for a computer model that will let you determine exactly what the radius of the pieces ought to be. You will end up with an accurate drawing you can send to a millwork place if you need to do that.

[Michael Dunn]

Hey Michael,

Let me recommend you download a free copy of Sketchup and take some time to learn to use it (if you haven't already). The design of this type of work just cries out for a computer model that will let you determine exactly what the radius of the pieces ought to be. You will end up with an accurate drawing you can send to a millwork place if you need to do that.

I know... I've known of SketchUp for a few years. I have it already. I just haven't taken the time to learn how to use it. I think the time is now.

That being said, the radius (well, ellipse actually...) has already been cut. Not by me.

I sent a rough drawing to a Millwork place earlier today. Letting him know I'm merely looking for assistance in pricing a job. He's working something up right now.

SketchUp here I come.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,you need some good drawings. If you sub the making of the rail the drawings and contract should state that the elliptical sections must follow a full size template you provide. Nothing dumber ,and more unnecessary than a conversation about who drew it right and who drew it wrong.

[Peter Quinn]

Did you call Bernie at curved moldings? He really does specialize in this sort if thing, ships world wide, quotes quickly, does all manner of custom work. Far as I'm concerned you owe it to yourself and your client to at least know the opportunity cost of having it done by a specialist. Just my .02. If work is scarce or this really really interests you I'm not one to say refuse jobs or be quick to turn it over to subs, and I've been where your taking on something new and not quite sure what to charge. Just like real estate agents, you get a starting place with comps.

I haven't revisited the how because unless I've missed something I still have no idea what machines you have to work with other than a wood master, and I don't see that doing everything required for this operation. At some point you need to be running a radius and approaching it from the edge, layered or not, and a wood master is a planer, not an edge shaper. Plus you have an inside radius to get the rabbit, an outside radius to get the mold, two different segments. This is not entry level work and should be compensated accordingly. But does the customer owe you an education? That's the question I always ask myself when pricing new work.

[Michael Dunn]

Did you call Bernie at curved moldings? He really does specialize in this sort if thing, ships world wide, quotes quickly, does all manner of custom work. Far as I'm concerned you owe it to yourself and your client to at least know the opportunity cost of having it done by a specialist. Just my .02. If work is scarce or this really really interests you I'm not one to say refuse jobs or be quick to turn it over to subs, and I've been where your taking on something new and not quite sure what to charge. Just like real estate agents, you get a starting place with comps.

I haven't revisited the how because unless I've missed something I still have no idea what machines you have to work with other than a wood master, and I don't see that doing everything required for this operation. At some point you need to be running a radius and approaching it from the edge, layered or not, and a wood master is a planer, not an edge shaper. Plus you have an inside radius to get the rabbit, an outside radius to get the mold, two different segments. This is not entry level work and should be compensated accordingly. But does the customer owe you an education? That's the question I always ask myself when pricing new work.

I did call Bernie. He's working on a quote now.

I do find this incredibly interesting. I also firmly believe that I can do it. Just because its difficult and time consuming, and I've never done it before doesn't mean I can't do it. As a matter of fact, everything I've done with my business this year has been a first. Cedar chest, floating shelves, table tops, and custom closets. All have been a learning experience for sure, but still made a profit. I'm not getting defensive (I think...) I'm just explaining a bit about me. I'm quite persistent, and determined.

I know a good amount about a lot of things. I know what I know and I know what I don't know. In other words, I know where my knowledge is lacking. Even then, I typically know where to go (usually google or SMC...) to find out what I'm missing. I'm not one to give up and I'm almost always up for a good challenge. Sometimes to a fault admittedly.

Please don't take my explanation of myself as though I felt attacked by you. I did not. Just some insight on me.

Thanx!

If I have to make a template and flush trim route the rabbet, that is fine.

[Jeff Duncan]

How well do you know this client? The more details I learn about this project the less I like it! Someone started the job who sounds like was possibly over their head, and now your being called in to clean up the mess:confused: What happened to the first guy? Was it money related? My gut feeling says don't spend too much more time on this quote as it's quite likely the client gets sticker shock! Even if they don't I'd have to be fairly comfortable with the reason I was called in on this type of situation.

It sounds like your still in the beginning stages of your career? I know what it's like to be starting out and looking to do whatever comes my way to pay the bills. However I also know when something smells bad at the beginning, and I've learned to trust my intuition on these things;)

good luck....and C.Y.A.
JeffD

[Michael Dunn]

Jeff,

I don't know him at all. Should I ask some more questions about why the bar builder didn't also do the rail?

Thanx for the advice!

[Jeff Duncan]

I would! At this stage in my career I would have asked a lot of questions right at the first phone call and/or meeting. I've had very good experiences jumping in where another shop couldn't complete a project for whatever reason. I've also had some I walked away from and never looked back. I've been told by several guys older and more experienced than myself to always go with what your gut tells you....so far it's worked well for me.

A typical job like this gets bid out as a whole, through the contractor/architect whoever is coordinating the project. Occasionally if it's a smaller restaurant/bar etc the owner in an attempt to save $$ acts as the GC, (always fun), and may be the one obtaining bids and hiring. I'm going to throw out a WAG this is your scenario? It's not usual practice to have someone build part of the bar in place and then try to figure out who's going to finish building it, installing it, finishing it etc., etc.. The tricky part is finding out what happened and why! There may be a perfectly safe and legit reason why your being brought in mid-way through. That's something that I can't help you with though. You'll have to feel your way through this and make sure your comfortable with everything before jumping in.

JeffD

[bobby milam]

What does vig mean?

Means their cut.

That's why forums are here. I'm glad to see so many willing to give advise and info to someone new in the business. That's what makes the world go around.

[Glenn Ancona]

Anytime we have worked on bar projects we are usually picking up the pieces of people who owe a bar tab or similar clowns who got in and couldn't deliver on their promises after having a few - Hey, its the bar business ! Coming in 1/2 way thru on someone else's work my only advice is ....T & M !!! If your fair and truly feel you can pull this off you cant lose. If they agree to go that route and you cant deliver - tell them. All of our work- and I mean all of it is T&M. It has always worked vey well for both party's involved.

[Mark Bolton]

This thread is like a soap opera you can't stop watching. Thank god I'm not home in the day time!!

Michael, your confidence is inspiring but saying that I'm affraid I prop you up, not that I think I should be tearing you down. To the contrary I think your missing the point and your missing it fatally. I am far from one to talk but you my friend have not even put a fingernail sized dent in the skin of the woodworking world profit or not (and that's not a statement from on-high its one from a self pronounced shallow denter). Your asking people with scores more experience to take time out of their production schedules and quote your project for you while it's clear your going to dillude yourself into thinking you can be profitable at 1/4, 1/3, 1/10, the cost with virtually no experience and no machinery.

If you go back I and reread this thread honestly and with complete objectivity and still feel you can be profitable in this project I applaud you.

One question I keep wondering is where was this lead generated?

[Peter Quinn]

Michael, I firmly believe you can do this, I've seen the work you've posted here, in fact if I really didn't believe you could do this I would never have responded to the post in the first place. But I have a back ground in economics and another career in restaurants. So my first instinct is to separate can and should. I'm guessing you can do anything you set your mind to. But is the project a winner? Are you covered financially, can you do the work safely? Would you make more money selling this guy a molding somebody else made and an install while you work on other projects? The restaurant part of my career informed me there are a lot of shady SOB's in the bar and food business, most of them are your best friend until you want to get paid, the failure rate is high, many close before they open.....the contractors always get screwed first. Did a lot of start ups from the kitchen end, saw a lot of good contractors never get paid. So get a good deposit and a solid WRITTEN contract that states all costs, what's included and specifically what is not included, and sell the install separately from the millwork. Get paid in full for the millwork after inspection in your shop but bEFORE delivery! Anyone that won't agree to that has an angle and a mind to roll you, walk away. Unless you want so badly to make curved moldings you'd do it for free.....

[George Gyulatyan]

Mark,here at the creek we say "......you make an adz of Andy ,Don ,Zeke ,and you and me."
If i were on Jeopardy I'd answer "What is an assumption?".