LN Tapered Back Tenon Saw or Traditional 16" Tenon Saw?

[Tom Langiewicz]

I'm in the process of building a toy box (picture Anarchists Tool Chest built a little lighter duty) and the top will be Frame & Panel construction. I'm doing long tenons on the stiles to help deal with the torque stress from the Rockler torsion hinges I am using. This brings me to my question. I am typically a "tools of necessity" guy and when a project requires a new tool that's when I buy. I currently don't have any western style saws and my duzuki does not rip the 3 1/4" tenon cheeks. This brings me to the 16" tenon saws. It looks like LN offers both style saws still. Is the tapered back a fad or a selling gimmick? or is it a legitimate upgrade? Does anyone have expierence with both of these saws that could offer me some insight?

I am open to other saw choices however the LN list of $175 is the top of my budget and I also need it in a short time so the custom makers long lead saws are out.

Thanks in advance for the insight!

[David Weaver]

6 of one, half dozen of another. You can work with any half decent saw and get the same results.

There's a million and one ways to cut those tenons if you're on a budget. Least expensive would be to get a ryoba to do it, even the floppy bear brand ryoba at home depot. You aren't going to want to cut right on the line of you don't do it all the time, anyway, so cut them fat and chisel to the line. A nicer choice, but just as durable, would be any of the smaller to medium sized gyochuko ryobas.

If you just feel like buying a saw, that's fine, too, though.

[Chris Griggs]

The LN tenon saw is a very nice saw...It's certainly not inexpensive but when you compare it to the price of the saws made by the smaller independent makers its relatively less expensive. I've only used the 16" one they were making before they started offering the tapered/canted blade, but I'm sure the tapered plate would work just as well. I've had saw with regular blades, but the ones I made for myself last year have canted plates. The canted plate supposedly helps you not saw past your line on the far side of the work. Honestly, I can't say I've noticed much of a difference in using my saws with canted plates compared to the ones I used previously with straight plates (you avoid cutting past your line by paying attention to what you are doing)...but I do think canted plates look pretty cool.

Again, the LN saw is a very nice saw, with or without the tapered plate. I think its the same price either way. I wouldn't let the canting of the plate be the deciding factor either for or against that saw. Its kinda a cool feature, but its not really going to affect use much.

If I were buying the LN I'd probably get the tapered just cause I like canted plates. I wouldn't really consider it an upgrade as much of a variation, and again, I'm not sure I notice that much, if any, difference in use, but IDK...i just kinda like them...maybe just aesthetically, or maybe they do handle a little differently and I just can't put it into words. Either way is good though.

[paul cottingham]

It's a bit small, but the Lee Valley carcase saw works great for tenons, and it is very reasonably priced.

[Chris Hachet]

I would buy a cheap Japanese rip saw, and send $140 to Lie Nielson for their router plane. This is the exact solution that I am pondering for a very similar problem of my own....

[Chris Griggs]

or if your wood fairly straight grained... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhs4hFoLag

(I typically saw my tenons, but its is a great video/great technique which is why I'm regurgitating the link that has been post here a zillion times already)

[lowell holmes]

If I were buying a new LN saw (I have three already), it would be the 16" thin plate tenon saw.

I may do it anyway.

[Steve Meliza]

If the tapered plate is a fad then it is a reoccurring one because it's not a new idea. The LN 16" un-tapered saw was well reviewed by Schwarz (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/new-tenon-saw-from-lie-nielsen-toolworks) as LN points out on their product page for it. I guess if he felt the saw was found wanting due to missing a taper then he kept it to himself.

As far as I know LN is the only place you're sure to get a quality 16" tenon saw in a hurry for what is really a decent price. My own 16" tenon saw was listed on Craigslist for $15 that I got for $5 when I arrived the find the saw back bent like a banana as if someone had driven over it. I managed to get the back straight and paid $20 for it to be sharpened by a pro. Hard to beat the price, but you may not be able to find a quality used saw and get it sharpened in a hurry.

[john davey]

I have the 16" tenon saw and it is wonderful. I went to a LN show to look at the tapered cc saw and it has a different smaller handle than the tapered tenon. This was a real bummer for me as it did not feel comfortable and I passed. The tapered tenon seems to have the same handle as the regular so I think you will not have that issue. I liked how the tapered tenon felt but not enough for me to sell my regular and buy the tapered.

[Hilton Ralphs]

This thread has helped me pull the trigger on the LN thin plate tapered tenon saw. Fanx.

For the same money I can get a sliding compound miter saw but it's not quite the same hey.

[Jim Matthews]

I would buy a cheap Japanese rip saw, and send $140 to Lie Nielson for their router plane. This is the exact solution that I am pondering for a very similar problem of my own....

+1 The saw gets you close - the Router plane dials in the fit.

[Jim Matthews]

This thread has helped me pull the trigger on the LN thin plate tapered tenon saw. Fanx.

For the same money I can get a sliding compound miter saw but it's not quite the same hey.

One needs a plug, the other is cordless.
One will take off the fingers of unwary users,
the other "barks" before it bites.

Some of us don't like wearing ear protection, dust masks and goggles while sawing.
The LN makes that a more comfortable endeavor.

Sliding compound miter saws are for people making lots of that sort of cut
(compound miters) in a production environment.

I'm just making things for use around the house because I can't afford quality furniture.

[Chris Griggs]

This thread has helped me pull the trigger on the LN thin plate tapered tenon saw. Fanx.

For the same money I can get a sliding compound miter saw but it's not quite the same hey.

Actually, when you calculate in the cost of reattaching your fingers, as well as the physical therapy sessions the LN saw is substantially less expensive.

[Adam Cruea]

Not that I'm discouraging buying new tools, but if you're ever in this sort of predicament again. . .

You can cut the shoulders first, then go all the way to the spine on your saw when ripping the cheek of the tenon. Take a chisel and put in the kerf left by the saw and literally, give it a gentle rap with your palm (or a carver's mallet).

The waste will pop off and leave a nice cheek. You just need to pare away the part where the waste was attached to the cheek, which in my experience is about as thick as the saw kerf.

Just a thought while you wait for you new saw to ship.

[Ryan Baker]

Not that I'm discouraging buying new tools, but if you're ever in this sort of predicament again. . .

You can cut the shoulders first, then go all the way to the spine on your saw when ripping the cheek of the tenon. Take a chisel and put in the kerf left by the saw and literally, give it a gentle rap with your palm (or a carver's mallet).

The waste will pop off and leave a nice cheek. You just need to pare away the part where the waste was attached to the cheek, which in my experience is about as thick as the saw kerf.

Just a thought while you wait for you new saw to ship.


Yes ... but that depends entirely on what the grain is doing. It works great with nice straight grain. But if the grain dives into the piece at that point, you will be making a new piece. Check before splitting and adjust as necessary.

[Lloyd Robins]

Just a thought - I have seen people cut their tenons with a panel saw.

[Hilton Ralphs]

An update that is relevant to this thread in case someone comes across this in a search.

The Lie-Nielsen 16" thin plate tapered saw blade has been shortened in depth by 3/4" to provide more stability. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the non-tapered version.

[Sam Stephens]

+2 for the router plane. I find it much easier to split the tenon cheeks and either pare w/ a chisel or use the router plane. unless I'm sawing to the line, sawing the cheeks is the slowest for me.

[Karl Fife]

The Lie-Nielsen 16" thin plate tapered saw blade has been shortened in depth by 3/4" to provide more stability. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the non-tapered version.

So are you saying that the 16" tapered rip tenon saw was shortened by ~3/4 after it was released, or are you saying that the tapered tenon saw has always been about 3/4" shorter than the non-tapered version?

The only reason I ask is that (strangely) the PICTURE of the TAPERED tenon saw on the LN web site has a RATIO of width to height (at the toe) of 4:1, which is consistent with a 4" (not 3") depth of cut (assuming the blade is 16" long as stated). If the saw has only a 3" depth of cut at the toe, one would expect to observe a height/width ratio ~5:1 (5.3 to 1) on the pictured saw. So I'm asking you whether you know of a design change, because that might explain things. If the design of the tapered saw CHANGED, maybe Lie Nielsen mistakenly has an OLD picture of how it was made formerly, explaining the seeming contradiction.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The 16" tapered saw was originally not shorted in height (spine to tooth line) but they obviously had issues so they made the changes. When I bought mine, they had not updated the website to reflect these changes and I haven't bothered to check since.

[Bryan Robinson]

I bought the tapered LN 16" tenon saw and it is really great to use. For me the balance and hang of the saw is great and fits my hand well. I really like it.

[Karl Fife]

The 16" tapered saw was originally not shorted in height...

Today I received an email from Deneb Puchalski of Lie-Nielsen Toolworks, in which he confirmed what you just said; QUOTE:

"The very first Tapered Tenon Saw that we made we simply sheared 3/8" off the original saw dimension. That is where the picture came from. We then decided that the 4" depth was deeper than it needed to be and reduced the height by 3/4".

This explains what I experienced as ambiguous wording on the site, and the the incorrect picture showing a height/width ratio of 4:1 instad of ~5:1


I bought the tapered LN 16" tenon saw and it is really great to use. For me the balance and hang of the saw is great and fits my hand well. I really like it.

I'm definitely sold on the tapered saw design in general, although I *think* I would sometimes wish for more depth of cut, such as the 4-1/8" depth-of-cut on the 16" 'Thin Plate Tenon Saw' vs. the 3-3/8" depth-of-cut on the 16" 'Tapered Tenon Saw'. Maybe I wouldn't wish for that in practice. Honestly, I'm too darnded inexperienced to know. That's why I'm bumming around this forum, asking you for advice. :-) Maybe the shorter depth-of-cut is sufficient for NEARLY EVERYTHING, and maybe the shorter depth makes the saw significantly easier to use, *although* my interpretation of Christopher Schwarz's writings on tenon saws is that the taller height is not a liability, rather it's an asset, though perhaps only an asset after one becomes a more skilled sawyer.

I suppose if I needed to cut a deeper tenon, I could resort to using the band saw, or I could leave a 'mountain' inside the cheek kerf, and remove it with a thin pull saw, or even a panel saw, (thought the panel saw may cut past the gauge line on the tenon cheek with its fatter kerf.

Do any of you have an opinion about the height of your tapered tenon saw? Do you ever wish it were deeper? Are you glad it's not? Do any of you with the 'reguar' thin-plate tenon saw feel happy to have the extra depth? Is it ever unwieldy? Does the extra depth truly help cut more accurately even when you don't NEED the extra depth? Feedback and opinions welcome and encouraged.

Deneb mentioned that Lie Nielsen can make the tapered saw at the "full" 4 1/8 depth BY REQUEST. That increases the price by a bit for the custom work, and adds about 8 weeks of lead time, but It could easily be worth it if it meant having the right tool.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm definitely sold on the tapered saw design in general, although I *think* I would sometimes wish for more depth of cut

In hindsight, the purchase of the tapered saw was a mistake. The theory behind the tapering is that if you hold the saw (back spline) perpendicular to the wood and cut away, you will end up with a wee bit more to cut on the break-out side. This is designed to stop you inadvertently cutting beyond your marked line. The reality is that it's better to use a normal saw and learn to cut properly.

I would just buy the stock standard version. As for the depth of cut, if you need it one day it's there but the tapering won't really help you out.

[James Conrad]

Tapered or canted backsaws are nothing new, see Smith's Key (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8529037p/f1.planchecontact#) almost 200 years old. I know the modern interpretation of this is as Hilton suggests, but I have not read anything in old texts mentioning it for the reason. Perhaps someone else has some insight of old...

[Karl Fife]

In hindsight, the purchase of the tapered saw was a mistake. ... I would just buy the stock standard version. As for the depth of cut, if you need it one day it's there but the tapering won't really help you out.

It's harder to discuss a tool's merits when two details are conflated. :-) In this case, tapered'ness and saw plate size (depth of cut).

So you HAVE a tapered 16" tenon saw, but in retrospect you WISH you'd not gotten a the non-tapered saw, BUT of course that also means your saw would would be 1-1/8" taller at the toe.

SO my question is, would you be *Indifferent* to the additional depth, or would you actually *welcome* the extra 1-1/8" depth? OR is your ideal tenon saw ~3", but you'd get the taller non-tapered saw anyway just because you don't like the tapered aspect?

Thoughts?

If you can believe it, I made a cardboard cut-out of the two different saw plates, and stuck them on my carcass saw just to see what it would feel like--whether perfectly natural OR awkward and unwieldy. Turns out cardboard saw blades don't cut worth a da** :-)

-K