What contitutes a neanderthal design....

[Jon Olson]

What level of machine usage is allowed for the product to remain a neanderthal design??...I dont see how most of the people posting finished designs in this section are using hand saws for cutting 12' long boards down to size, right?? Is it the use of hand planes, hand cut joints, etc. or is it more than that??

Just thought I'd ask as I look at building a Entertainment center.

jon

[Chris Padilla]

Jon,

Does it really matter? Use whatever methods work for you. That is usually driven by whatever tools you have (or your buddies have! ;) ).

I imagine your EC will have some plywood, right? Well, there you go...the whole "neanderthal-ness" of your EC is deal before it started! hahaha...just pulling your leg here.

I guess that unless you are entering a show in which the use of electrons to build is strictly verboten, it doesn't really matter.

[Steve Cox]

Personlly I think it is a very false dichotomy to label projects Neander or not. We simply use tools, whatever works for the job (or at least I do). My problem with a lot of woodworking today is that many people think that if you can't plug it in (or use a battery) then it is not efficient to use. That I think is wrong, many times hand tools are easier and more efficient than machines but other times they are not (like cutting 12' bords to size).

[Gary Herrmann]

All that being said, just grunt a lot when you're cutting and milling the stock and it will qualify as a neander project. :p

[Donnie Raines]

I thought anything that did not require electrons would constitute as "neanderlyness" in quailty.... ;) :rolleyes:

[Jim Becker]

Tough question because it's so subjective. For me, using hand powered tools for some significant proportion of the project qualifies for Neander-ness, especially considering that it's rare that folks don't use some machinery these days, even when they focus on hand tools for much of there work. There is a certain practicality for that when you consider many of us don't have huge chunks of time for our woodworking pursuits, yet really enjoy working with planes, chisels and other traditional tools when we have the opportunity. I do this less than many, but truly enjoy being able to say, "I learned how to..." when there is a chance to do so.

[Tim Sproul]

I guess for truly neander, you'd start by finding some flint rock...


or to be less neander - rubbing 2 sticks together...get yer fire hot around a large bowl shaped stone to smelt iron ore....

Then...pick up a stick and find yer self a lode of iron ore to dig out.

:)

[Robert Weber]

I agree with most, if not all that's already been posted.

However, for the sake of discussion, here's my $0.02. I think that there's a cutoff for what can be called a truely neander project, and I don't think hand-cut joinery cuts it (:D).

Seriously, if you are using a jointer or planer to you are not working on the dark side. A drill press or router would similarly disqualify one.

I have not, however, disqualified those using band or table saws to dimension their stock, although I've ripped 180 inches of 4/4 oak with a Disston D-23 in the last couple of evenings working on a file cabinet for LOML. That being said, I fully intend to use my Skilsaw on the plywood. If I had used a table saw on that 4/4, I would be done by now, but I'm not in this just for efficiency. I have my day job to beat that into my life. I could hear the radio while I worked, and that was justification enough for me to do it by hand. That and when I was done I felt really satisfied.

I guess that neander is a state of mind. Every woodworker draws the line at a different place. Myself, I would like to wean myself from as much electrickery as I can, and I really couldn't tell you why - it's just something in my gut (and still attached to the end of my hands).

I also think that neanderness will be somewhat dictated by the style you are working in, and sometime space limitations. In my case, I tend to use more neander methods when working in more traditional styles, and more electrical methods when working in more modern styles. Take my office furniture, for instance. It's a modern style with lots of sheet goods. That will be almost entirely cut with the Skilsaw out in the driveway.

Which brings me right to the other point. My workshop is 9x12 (smaller than a one-car garage). If I had to rip a long piece of stock, and I didn't want to do it in the driveway, hand saws are about the only way to go.

Addictive, too.

Hope I've added some fuel to the fire. There are some interesting articles on why people use hand tools linked to from my Knowledge Base > Philosophy and Humor. Check it out.

http://www.jlatech.com/rob/Woodworking/Knowledge%20Base.htm

Hoping to get some shop time in tonight after the kids are in bed to rip another 90", I'm

[Mark Singer]

Who cares use the best tools and methods to achieve the finest results with the least effort....and just call it great crafstmanship!

[Richard Gillespie]

Jon;

As Mark said, who cares? Do what feels good to you. If you want to take a given project from rough cut stock to finish furniture with hand tools, so be it. If you feel that you want to leave the grunt work to the machines, that's your choice. My gut feeling is that the size of the project and materials being used may dictate the processes.

Most of us Neanderthals use a mixture of hand and power tools. I've tried preparation of rough cut stock by hand and now know how to do it. I'd rather use my surface planner, jointer and table saw to do the majority of the preparation and finish it with hand tools. I like doing hand cut dovetails more than using a jig. However, saying that if I have a very large number of dovetails to cut, out comes the jig.

I became interested in working with hand tools for a variety of reasons. The two most important to me were reduction of dust being generated by sanding and the look of stock after finishing with hand planes and scrapers.

You decide and you won't get any criticism from me on your choice.

[Steve Cox]

Amen Mark.

[Steve Wargo]

Don't forget, cabinet shops of old would have had many less apprentices if they had power thickness planers and jointers. Now these tools simply replace the need for apprentices in our small shops, allowing the "Masters" to get a little work done. :rolleyes: Man I wish I had a jointer(that didn't say Lie Nielsen) or an apprentice. :D

[Pete Rowley]

Don't forget, cabinet shops of old would have had many less apprentices if they had power thickness planers and jointers.

Wait, nobody else has their wife and kids mill the stock by hand? :eek:

[Michael Perata]

If, on Saturday morning early, you have a chance of watching EITHER Roy Underhill or Norm Abrahms, and you choose Roy - you are heading down the path to Neandertal-ism.

[Jon Olson]

Thanks for your responses...I guess my desire is to understand the neader mindset involved. I was thinking about some of my projects in planning stages and what types of joints and hardware and all of the other thoughts that go into design and then thought about this forum and where (if I finish the ET center before baby #2 comes in Aug) I might post the project. I plan to hand cut the DT jointer, probably the M/T joints also. I have some planes for surfacing - no J/P to use unless Chris finishes his garage... Now, I dont plan to give away my table saw for ripping and CCuts and buying a Disston like Robert (even though my 1948 table saw is considered a Neader device when compared to a sliding table MM combo machine) But I really like the idea of using my hands and being more apart of the building process (plus keeping down on the noise, dust, cash involved in bigger/better/faster tools as others have said)
Well enough of my mind games...I'll focus on the craftmanship and see what tools are available to me. And in the end see where I feel the best place for presentation is. thanks all....you put my mind at ease on this friday afternoon.
Any other thoughts are always welcome.

Jon

[Martin Shupe]

Jon...

I recently posted a project in the Neander section. I'll admit that I used a jointer, planer, tablesaw, and drill press on the project.

However, the dovetails were hand cut, and that, IMHO, makes it worthy of posting to the Neander side.

I would like to learn more about using handplanes and scrapers instead of sandpaper. I am planning on doing that in the future.

If I were to dimension all of my lumber from rough to ready, I would never get a project finished, so that will be done with my long tailed apprentices.

Having said that, I would love to take a class from Rob Cosman someday.

I never thought I would enjoy hand cutting dovetails so much. I am not fast, but the job satisfaction of the work and results is off the chart. There is nothing like the smile I get when my dovetails fit together with only small gaps (and I am working to make those gaps smaller and smaller).

[Pam Niedermayer]

Are you truly asking about neanderthal design or practices? If design, that's easy, you don't use pocket screws, biscuits, cove and stick router joinery, butt joints, and normally no nails/brads/etc. Instead you use m&t and dovetails, and sometimes some other fancy joinery variations based on those two.

If practices, that's all about method, which to a certain extent drive the design. For example, if you're using a router to cut m&t, you'll have rounded off m&t's.

It sounds like you're worried whether you can publicize your work in this forum. That's up to your conscience.

Pam

[Mark Singer]

Pam is correct and to the point! I think most SMC members still appreciate a balance in execution and a nicely completed result....there is always the next project and other choices for execution. It is really a luxury to have command of several methods and chose which one is appropriate...this comes with time..
Are you truly asking about neanderthal design or practices? If design, that's easy, you don't use pocket screws, biscuits, cove and stick router joinery, butt joints, and normally no nails/brads/etc. Instead you use m&t and dovetails, and sometimes some other fancy joinery variations based on those two.

If practices, that's all about method, which to a certain extent drive the design. For example, if you're using a router to cut m&t, you'll have rounded off m&t's.

It sounds like you're worried whether you can publicize your work in this forum. That's up to your conscience.

Pam

[David Klug]

I agree with Michael, the woodright shop is neaneral.

DK

[James Mittlefehldt]

It's funny, but there seems to be among some woodworkers a mindset that it has to be either/or where in fact it does not have to be. I talk sometimes with a fine gentleman in Georgia and he started all his woodworking as a neandertal, including taking a log from an Oak tree in his front yoard that was knocked over by a storm and splitting it with wedges and then planing the boards. He however decided his ability to cut a straigt line with a rip saw was too weak and he ended up buying a table saw.

I was fortunate in that I took a series of classes at a local community college that taught that even though machines excell at most rough work there is often a need for the hand work, say for example if you have to cut dovetails for one box, in the time it would take to set up a Leigh Jig you could have done it by hand, just as fast.

I personally have only a scroll saw, which is actually my wife's, and a twelve inch bench model drill press which I seldom use but it sure comes in handy sometimes. I usually have my wood planed and jointed by my local purveyor of wood. The reason I started woodworking in the first place was to discover how the old guys did it, without electron burners, so it is actually an exercise in research I guess. Though I love doing this stuff and have moved beyond that somewhat.

My wife once commented when I had Roy Underhill on the television that his shop looked like mine, I was flattered though I am not sure she meant it as a compliment.

[Bob Smalser]

Who cares....use the best tools and methods to achieve the finest results with the least effort....and just call it great crafstmanship!

My view too....and I think the argument is unimportant. Also agree with Pam about gizmo joinery...."expensive preparation and storage of the next generation's fireplace kindling."

I don't draw lines except where I believe it to be important. You can't build a proper boat without hand tools....and I couldn't make a living without power tools.

[Bob Smalser]

Thought about this as started this small boat chart box today....I always figured purists should also limit themselves to gelatin glues, too.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7455753/97468879.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7455753/97468890.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7455753/97468898.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7455753/97469560.jpg

Sure....I could make this using hide or fish glue....but not for a boat as it wouldn't survive more than one dunking.

[Jerry Palmer]

What level of machine usage is allowed for the product to remain a neanderthal design??...I dont see how most of the people posting finished designs in this section are using hand saws for cutting 12' long boards down to size, right?? Is it the use of hand planes, hand cut joints, etc. or is it more than that??

Just thought I'd ask as I look at building a Entertainment center.

jon

Actually, one of the reasons I got into handsaws was the ability to quickly take longer planks down to rough dimension even before carrying them into the shop. Much easier to do with a handsaw than to wrestle it up onto the table saw. In fact, I will generally carry a panel saw with me to the wood store to cut the 10 - 12 foot long pieces to the overall project size so I don't have several feet of board extending out of the bed of the P/U.

[John Keeling]

C'mon Bob, where's the rest of it? Hows about a 'And here's the finished chart box'. You can't leave me just salivating here...

Can you really cut that straight with a bow saw? Do you guide it with anything or just freehand it? Do you run the saw along the benchtop on the far side?

John, NY

Personally I start with boards that are flattened, have planed faces and cut to rough size. Rough sized may mean bandsawn curves too. Anything I do beyond this is usually with hand tools, so I finish my surfaces to final shape and make my joints with handtools. If I put detail in then its either my moulding planes, #43/45/55 or scratch stock never a router. I don't think Chippendale would have shunned the tablesaw if he could get one...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Pam's comment about design was dead on.

Other comments about apprentices was also dead on.

Using power tools allows most of us to produce to a better finished product in a much shorter time frame. If we all had to "learn" through years of apprenticeship how to rip boards, cut dovetails and use hand planes it's doublful many of us would be producing the projects we do in short time periods.

The past week I've been finishing the oak buffet that is my first piece of real furniture. Finishing it is slow. As I brush on and let dry a new coat of poly and wait at least 24 hours for it to dry, it's given me a chance inspect my handiwork. While it has it's defects, there's a lot right about it and I've learned a lot. At age 55, if I were to apprentice in a master's shop to learn the neander skills, I'd be drawing social security before I could go it on my own. My wife wants it finished before our families descend upon us in 3 weeks. She wants to proudly use and display it. Frankly folks, her approval is my main measure of success with this project. (It got me a new table saw and a new shop!) Is it a piece of Master craftsmanship? No!

In short, I respect and celebrate the Neander skills and hope to learn a few! I also realize that accurate power tools allow me to produce a project that I might not otherwise be able to produce in a shorter time period. They both have their place.

[Robert Weber]

Using power tools allows most of us to produce to a better finished product in a much shorter time frame.
I think that Ken's got the right of it here. What it comes down to is what your goals in the workshop are. If I was on a huge time constraint, I would have ripped the oak for my file cabinet on the Shopsmith and been done with it. I would have had nice clean edges that won't need to be cleaned up with a hand plane.

To address the "shorter time frame" part of the quote above, as I've become a part of the Neander community, I've noticed that the more power tools a woodworker uses, the more likely they are to turn out finished projects on a regular basis. There is no argument that power tools make for faster results, but as the hand tool user becomes more proficient, the difference shrinks. Never goes away completely, though.

As far as better is concerned, I guess it comes down to the difference between skill and setting up jigs. If one doesn't have the skills, the jigs are a life saver. At the same time, many furniture shops turned out fantastic work years and years before the power tools were available, so it is possible.

All that being said, why in the world am I preparing stock by hand (Disston and Stanley) when I could get faster and better (I'm still relatively new at this) results with machines?