Roubo & Nicholson design combined?

[Mike Holbrook]

So I have most of what I need to make my new workbench. I am planing to pick up more wood and parts to make an Adjust A Bench work table that I can make the new workbench on. I have two vises:1) Benchcrafted hardware to make a leg vice (with anchor yacht chain system) 2) a Veritas QR Tail Vise.

I have been torn between the Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo plans and Bob Lang's 21st Century Workbench plans. I would like to maximize the ability of the bench to clamp work to the front as well as top of the work surface. Bob Lang's thick stretcher seems like a sturdier clamping service than the sliding deadman in the Benchcrafted design. The directions that come with the Veritas QR Tail Vise suggest an apron on the front of the bench that matches to the wood jaw on the vise, which got me thinking of a third option.

What if I make a third work surface similar to the two that make the top of the bench, except more like 4-6" wide by 2" thick. If I place this third surface under the front top "Roubo" section and between the two front legs I wind up with something like Bob's stretcher that matches better to the front of the Veritas vise. It would be sort of like a Nicholson design but with a smaller front apron. The apron/stretcher below the front edge would provide a separate surface to place dog holes in, without having to drill them into the edge of the bench. These dog holes could match dog holes in the Veritas QR Tail vise with less worry of crowding too many dog holes into too small an area on the bench edge or vise jaws.

I think this design would provide a very strong versatile front edge on my bench. I believe Schwarz's issue with aprons on bench edges is they can prevent clamping to the front edge of the bench. In this case, however, the split top provides center and rear edge clamping and the tail vise obviously can also clamp to the top surface. It also seems that the shorter front apron would just make clamming to the top require a clamp with a little wider jaws. But then maybe I am missing an issue this design would create?

[Chris Griggs]

I believe Schwarz's issue with aprons on bench edges is they can prevent clamping to the front edge of the bench. In this case, however, the split top provides center and rear edge clamping and the tail vise obviously can also clamp to the top surface. It also seems that the shorter front apron would just make clamming to the top require a clamp with a little wider jaws. But then maybe I am missing an issue this design would create?

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You mean something like this? (the clamping arrangement not the overall bench design)

Mine's not Roubo-Nicholson hybrid just a split top Nicholson with a wide enough gap to fit clamps. The gap does alleviate some of the loss of clamping ability caused by the apron, but there have definitely been times when being able to clamp directly at the front would be nice. I do love the big aprons though, and while there is a little bit of a tradeoff, between the center gap and use of holdfasts little is lost in terms of clamping ability and I'm willing to live with what is.

With smaller aprons even less would be loss and yes if you really want to clamp something right at the edge you could use a bigger clamp. I don't think you'd loose a lot if you decide you really want something like a 6" apron on the front.

[Mike Holbrook]

Chris I forgot you had a Nicholson.
I am glad to hear you like the clamping ability and don't miss the use of the front edge much. Yes, everything is a trade off and I think if I had to choose I would go Nicholson over front clamping too. I am liking my compromise idea but do worry that compromises sometimes just don't do anything as well as one might like. In my case I think the shorter apron should match well to the end vise I have. I can't tell what end vise you are using? Maybe you use Veritas Dogs, Surface Vise...instead? I also wonder how often you find the bottom 6" of the Nicholson apron useful? That question, of course, might have a different answer if you had the Veritas QR Tail Vise on the back right corner, with a jaw set to clamp work against dogs in holes beside it. I think the 300 lbs of pressure the vise is reputed to exert should hold most of my work against the front of the bench without additional help. I hope I will be able to work boards longer than the bench via the leg vise and holdfasts or Surface Clamps in the apron dog holes.

The Adjust A Bench work table I plan to build (maybe 7' x 2') will have no vises or aprons, so should I need a surface that is easy to clamp things to there will be that option. I plan to build the AAB first and use it as the surface to glue my workbench top together on.

[Curt Putnam]

We all have preconceptions on the way we work. Most of us will approach any given task quite differently. The Nicholson apron simply offends my preconceptions of the way things should be done. With that said, you still have to think through how you will work and on what you will work. In my case, the largest single piece that I work with is about 36" x 24". As long as the front legs are even with the front edge of the bench, I can clamp my panels, an entry door and with the addition of a sliding deadman I can clamp the 8' or 9' pieces to work on edges. Although, with that latter item, I'd be more likely to design things in 4' chunks (think bookcase sides.)

Like you, I can be the victim of design paralysis. Sometimes it's better to simply build a known good design and start building stuff. 5 years later, you will have either adapted to the bench or know, from experience, what you need to build.

[Chris Griggs]

I have a regular iron QR vise on the end of bench for use as a tail vise. Yeah, I'm not sure how you could set up something like a traditional tailvise (or the modern LV equivalent you have) to work on something like a Nicholson....though it is something I've though of.

I should add that as much as I like the huge apron I do question whether or not I'll do another Nicholson type bench if/when I build another. Though I feel like what I loose in clamping availability is minimal there is one fairly decent other drawback that I think is much greater - that is the inability to easyily push your bench dogs up from under the bench with much ease. You kinda need to squat down, and reach under the apron to push them up. My fix for this issue is to use my planing stop as sorta a fill length bench dog when I use my end vise to clamp things on the surface...you could also use the LV prairie dogs to work around this problem, but any way you slice it the big apron does add some complexitiesm, in exchange for the other simplicities it brings into the equation.

Hmmm.... the very bottom 6 inches...yeah if I think about it I probably do use the top 6 inches the most. If you think about it the hole are really just there to add pegs and holdfasts that supprort the end of a piece being jointed that isn't in the vise. Figure 99% of material is under 10" and most more like 6-8", and since you want a few inches sticking up above the bench top when edge jointing a 6" apron might be perfect. I mean the lowest hole would be like 5" down from the top right? So you could joint an 8" board and have about 3" sticking above the top which is about right.

[Chris Griggs]

Sometimes it's better to simply build a known good design and start building stuff. 5 years later, you will have either adapted to the bench or know, from experience, what you need to build.

Probably the best advice you'll get. You've got nice vises, and a good set a plans. It may very well just be best to follow the plans to the greatest extent your lumber and hardware will allow. You won't likely end up being dissatisfied with such a proven design....and while reinventing the wheel may add a little "somethin somethin" you may also just find yourself quickly learning that there is a reason it wasn't done that way in the plans the first place. 9 times out of 10 when I stray from standard methods and practices on something like this that's what I come to find out.

[Jack Curtis]

Instead of building 2 or 3 generalized benches, why not build more with each specialized for a given task?

[Mike Holbrook]

The Veritas instructions that come with the QR Tail vise call for an apron matching the depth of the vise's jaws, which strictly speaking does not work with either set of plans I have. About the only way I see to do either plan exactly is to use the vises the plan uses. Since I have two vises I will have to adapt one plan to accommodate those vises. I believe I have enough wood to make a top. I think I am short on wood for the base and vise jaws. The dimensions of my two top pieces way heavily on the additional wood I will need.

The bench we are discussing is targeted at planing. The Adjust a bench is slated for: clamping wood for gluing..., cutting sheet goods with a Festool saw, an adjustable surface for working on cabinets....My compact workbench will be used for working on smaller pieces.

[lowell holmes]

Chris I forgot you had a Nicholson.


. . . . . . I hope I will be able to work boards longer than the bench via the leg vise and holdfasts or Surface Clamps in the apron dog holes. . . .



Be aware that Sjoberg hold downs have very strong surface clamping force. It approaches that of a bar clamp. I have a bench (nothing approaching what you are talking about) that has a deep front apron. The Sjobergs absolutely clamp boards to the top with no movement. I was considering removing the front apron until I discovered the force the Sjobergs provide.

[Jack Curtis]

...The bench we are discussing is targeted at planing....

Speaking from personal experience, Japanese style planing beams work great, with NO clamping required, gravity works. All you need is a 6x6 or larger beam with a prop on each end, typically one end is propped on a wall. The dimension required depends on the length. Also, often it's tough to find such a big beam, so I've also made them by laminating 2x4's, 2X10's, etc.