Manual dovetail journey

[Prashun Patel]

I'm on a quest to hone my manually cut dovetail skills. I say "manual" vs "hand cut" because for me a hybrid bandsaw/chisel/dovetail saw method seems to feel right.



Some things that worked well for me: using a 7 deg jig on the bandsaw instead of marking the tails; cutting a rabbet on the tail board; instead of using a coping saw to remove waste between tails, I cut kerfs with the bandsaw, then used a chisel.

I transfer the tails to the pin board with a utility knife. The hardest part is still cutting straight lines on the pins. I use a dovetail saw for that, but can feel that with a little practice this feels like the most efficient way for me to do it. Once the pins are separated, I lay the board inside up on the bandsaw and cut kerfs up to the base of the sockets. Then it's a simple matter to then waste away the material in between with a chisel. Even the wedge between the outermost kerf and the manual saw kerf falls away easy.

I also wish paring went easier. It's sometimes hard to push the chisel despite fresh sharpening.

Here's my best Day 2 effort. C&C welcome!!!

[David Weaver]

Do it however pleases you. If someone tells you how to cut the joint or what tools you *have* to use for it to be a "real" dovetail joint, tell them you'll take their advice when they do your work for you.

As for paring, you can forgo all of the paring and use light taps if it bothers you. I've never been a fan of much paring on dovetails. Everything is to a heavy marked line between the pins and tails, and if I pare, it's only on the shoulders of the board.

But if you go to M&T, you might have reason to pare more, and a method like this might be something you find favor with:

see 0:38 in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhs4hFoLag

If it's hard to pare, your chisel is sharp and it's not a blunt 35 degree angle or something, you're probably taking too much of a paring cut. If you're paring with a very wide chisel, then that's just the way it goes (hard paring), thus the method in the video shown above to work from left to right or right to left on outside areas that need to be pared.

A good deep marking line makes it a lot easier.

[Chris Griggs]

Looks good to me. Sounds like a great method combining some of the speed of power tools with the freedom of hand tools. Tim Rousseau (http://www.timothyrousseau.com/gallery.cfm) shows a similar approach in one the FWW video workshops. He hasn't done a lot of videos as far as I know, but he pops up from time to time and his work style is full of all sorts of wonderful ways to combine hand and power tools.

[Jim Koepke]

Hey, whatever works.

Sometimes I remove waste with a saw. Especially when making lap joints in X4 material. Have also done it on dovetails.

Using a fret/coping saw to cut out the waste doesn't seem to save much time for me on dovetails and has caused some unwanted errors.

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

They look great to me...keep on cutting them, sir!

[Jim Koepke]

They look great to me...

They look better than most of mine!

Though I keep getting better at it.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Those are glued. The dry fit is less flattering. I would defintely counsel neos to start with thinner stock. Last year i started with 3/4 and it was discouraging. Working in 1/2 is so much friendlier at first.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The hardest part is still cutting straight lines on the pins. I use a dovetail saw for that, but can feel that with a little practice this feels like the most efficient way for me to do it.

You know our very own Derek Cohen? He has a web sit with an article titled "Making Better Dovetails". In it, he has a comment about using a "chisel to chamfer a fence" for the saw to ride against. I have been known to do this with through dovetail along the entire width of the board rather than just a corner (of course, he was doing half blind).

[Jim Koepke]

Those are glued. The dry fit is less flattering. I would defintely counsel neos to start with thinner stock. Last year i started with 3/4 and it was discouraging. Working in 1/2 is so much friendlier at first.

The thicker the stock is it seems the more any small error is exaggerated.

My current potting bench build has me dovetailing 5/4X4 cedar. There is a rabbet in the rail with the pin. To make it work without losing strength or making some weird cuts there is only one pin and the tails are on the outside. Looks a bit odd since it is usually the other way around.

264240

My plans are already forming to try something different next time.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

I am having trouble getting the baselines tight on the pin side of the joint. Also, I notice that the bases of the 'wings' on the tail side aren't tight. I can clamp them tight, but this compromises the fit along the sides of the tails. I am undercutting all my bases, but still have a tough time of it. I tried to hide the errors in the latest attempt with sawdust and glue, but you can still detect where the gaps are.

I read the Derek Cohen blog about scribing the baselines hard with a proper knife gauge to give a good reference for chiseling the baselines. I fashioned this rudimentary knife gauge out of a jigsaw blade a threaded insert, a thumb screw, and some scrap wood. I love this gauge. It's so aggressive! A couple short cuts for people who don't want to spend the time to make this 'heirloom' quality:
- I cut a 45 deg recess on the bottom of the hole through which the arm goes. Then I chamfered a mating bevel on the arm. This allows it to clamp securely without any side/side play.
- Fitting the wedge for the blade needn't be a big effort. I just sharpened a 1/4" dowel in a pencil sharpener and then hammered it home. It holds the blade securely. My mortise for it is square, but it really doesn't even have to be. You could easily just drill a 1/4" hole and wiggle the bit back and forth to ream a beveled hole. Not fancy, but it works. I think the blade is supposed to be on the fence-side of the arm... oops ;)

[Chris Griggs]

Your baselines are likely being forced back by overly aggressive chopping with the chisel. Start off gently, just paring out a v-notch the depth of the gauge line. Than move to a gentle hit and pare out a little deeper. Once you establish a little bit of depth the base line has enough of a "back wall" to support harder chisel whacks without getting pushed back. The other solution is to chop about 1/16" in front of your base line and then pare to it as a final step.

(Also, check to make sure you don't just have some schmutz in the bottom of the pin board that you didn't get out and is preventing the tails from seating)

For the wings, my guess is you are sawing right in the line when you remove the waste around the tails, and if you are sawing right in the line than you are actually sawing just past the line. Here again, saw a little away from the line or just barely to the line and then pare right in the base line. Few things cat cut as cleanly and accurately as a sharp chisel.

[Adam Cruea]

I am having trouble getting the baselines tight on the pin side of the joint. Also, I notice that the bases of the 'wings' on the tail side aren't tight. I can clamp them tight, but this compromises the fit along the sides of the tails. I am undercutting all my bases, but still have a tough time of it. I tried to hide the errors in the latest attempt with sawdust and glue, but you can still detect where the gaps are.

I read the Derek Cohen blog about scribing the baselines hard with a proper knife gauge to give a good reference for chiseling the baselines. I fashioned this rudimentary knife gauge out of a jigsaw blade a threaded insert, a thumb screw, and some scrap wood. I love this gauge. It's so aggressive! A couple short cuts for people who don't want to spend the time to make this 'heirloom' quality:
- I cut a 45 deg recess on the bottom of the hole through which the arm goes. Then I chamfered a mating bevel on the arm. This allows it to clamp securely without any side/side play.
- Fitting the wedge for the blade needn't be a big effort. I just sharpened a 1/4" dowel in a pencil sharpener and then hammered it home. It holds the blade securely. My mortise for it is square, but it really doesn't even have to be. You could easily just drill a 1/4" hole and wiggle the bit back and forth to ream a beveled hole. Not fancy, but it works. I think the blade is supposed to be on the fence-side of the arm... oops ;)

I do not see anything wrong with those dovetails. They are done by hand; they will not be perfect.

Keep in mind, it is human nature to look at your own work and say "this does not look at all good", but when looking at other people's work, you'll see it as better than they do.

If you're married or have a partner, do what I do; ask them how it looks. You are your own worst critic and striving for perfection is a pursuit destined for failure.

[Chris Hachet]

I am of the same opinion....I have restored a lot more furniture than I have built, and I've never seen better looking dovetails on a vintage piece of furniture. I have an 18th century Queen anne lowboy sitting in my bedroom at home right now, and the dovetails are nowhere near that good on what was a very high end 18th century piece....Keep on cutting, sir.

[Prashun Patel]

I am having trouble scribing the pins from the tails. I don't think I'm using my marking knife properly. I've tried a utility knife as well as some shop made knives and an exacto knife. The thin blades seem to dig into the sides of the tail board or wander from the line. The utility knife works well, but is too thick for deeper/narrower scribing. Also, those lines are tricky to see even in lighter woods.

My heart wants to use a pencil. It just seems like the hard scribing of a knife requires too much force that'll compromise the accuracy.

Before I give up on the marking knife, I'll ask some dumb questions:

1) The straight edge (not the beveled edge) goes against the scribing edge, right?
2) What's an appropriate primary/secondary bevel for marking knives? Too steep, and they wander. To shallow, and they don't cut well.


Does anyone out there use a pencil to mark?

[Jim Koepke]

I am having trouble scribing the pins from the tails. I don't think I'm using my marking knife properly. I've tried a utility knife as well as some shop made knives and an exacto knife. The thin blades seem to dig into the sides of the tail board or wander from the line. The utility knife works well, but is too thick for deeper/narrower scribing. Also, those lines are tricky to see even in lighter woods.

My heart wants to use a pencil. It just seems like the hard scribing of a knife requires too much force that'll compromise the accuracy.

Before I give up on the marking knife, I'll ask some dumb questions:

1) The straight edge (not the beveled edge) goes against the scribing edge, right? Yes


2) What's an appropriate primary/secondary bevel for marking knives? Too steep, and they wander. To shallow, and they don't cut well.


Does anyone out there use a pencil to mark?

Chriss Griggs makes a good point about the chisel's bevel pushing the chisel back into the base line. It took me awhile to learn this and how to deal with it.

This may be a problem for everyone when they start cutting joinery.

Remember that no matter how tight you hold your knife (or pencil) to the tail (or pin if you cut them first) the line is in the material that will mate with the reference piece. It is not part of the waste. This was also an epiphany for me in the joinery journey. It is likely how "sawing to the line" became a popular phrase. It has taken me paying a lot of attention to how and where my sawing effects my dovetails to get better. BTW, my dovetails are getting better, but they are nowhere near perfection. As others have pointed out, perfection may be a worthy goal but less than perfection can still look good and do the job.

Most of the time my marking is done with one of two knives. One is made from an old plane blade, the other from a saw blade. Both are beveled on only one side. The non-beveled side is held against the reference when marking. The saw blade knife's bevels meet at about 30º. The plane blade knife's bevels meet at 90º.

My paring chisels are sharpened at a very low angle of about 20º. This is just one reason to have a few different sets of chisels around. For larger dovetails two 1/2" chisels were turned into skew chisels. These come in handy for clearing waste. Mine are straight sided chisels and work especially well when clearing waste between pins. Since I am starting to get a few extra 1/4" bevel edged chisels it may be time to think about making a smaller pair.

Just a few things to think about. My cutting is usually done from the side that will be seen. This hides any chip-out/blowout caused by the saw. My dovetails tend to get better the more they done. So my practice is to start at the back of something and work to the front. My first dovetails of the day tend to not be as nice as the ones done later, so I hide them.

I haven't tried using a bandsaw to cut dovetails.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I am having trouble scribing the pins from the tails. I don't think I'm using my marking knife properly. I've tried a utility knife as well as some shop made knives and an exacto knife. The thin blades seem to dig into the sides of the tail board or wander from the line. The utility knife works well, but is too thick for deeper/narrower scribing. Also, those lines are tricky to see even in lighter woods.

My heart wants to use a pencil. It just seems like the hard scribing of a knife requires too much force that'll compromise the accuracy.

Before I give up on the marking knife, I'll ask some dumb questions:

1) The straight edge (not the beveled edge) goes against the scribing edge, right?
2) What's an appropriate primary/secondary bevel for marking knives? Too steep, and they wander. To shallow, and they don't cut well.


Does anyone out there use a pencil to mark?

I have been using the Veritas Workshop Striking Knife and/or my Blue Spruce marking knife.



The last set of drawers I made, I first worked really really hard to make sure that my tails, which I cut first, were straight and perpendicular. I found that I do a better job of this when clamp my two drawer sides together and clamp them, then I can cut two boards at once. What this really does is give me a longer distance over which I can gage if I am cutting a straight line I suppose. The important thing is that it is straight and perpendicular to the face.
After removing the waste, I clamp a board that will contain the tails so that it is horizontal in my Moxon vice.
I lay the tail board on top. The tail board is supported so that it lays flat (according to my level).
I need to make sure that the tail board stays perfectly on top of the tail board. If the board shifts left or right, then the markings will be off. I have even taken other boards that I placed on each side of the pin board so that the tail board cannot shift (clamped them in place).
The next detail (for me) is keeping the tail board so that it does not rotate. I know that some people actually route (or cut) a rabbit in the tail board so that it will sit nicely the correct depth and stay not twisted.
Now, we finally get to your question, how do I mark the tails. I set my marking knife with the flat edge against the tail and make a line. I might even do this two or three times so that I can be gentle. It is important that it stays firmly against the tail.


I find that it helps me to drop a perpendicular line along the front face to my scribe line so that I can cut a straight line down (it gives me something to follow).

Another trick that works for me is that when I look at my line scribed in the end grain of the pin board, I will take a chisel and place it in the scribed line and tap it. I can then notch out a groove and set the saw in the groove. This helps me start the cut exactly where it should be.

I have marked with a pencil, but I don't find that I am likely to stick that fine pencil point in at an angle so I cut too narrow. I cannot set the pencil against the the entire tail and mark right at the edge. I remember cutting OK dovetails with them. When I cut using both methods I felt that my knife edges did a better job.

[Chris Hachet]

I pretty much am in the habit of using a knife for most of my cuts...it keeps my knife skills up for when I need them for something precise...

[Jim Matthews]

FWIW - I think your first dovetails shown would glue up without noticeable gaps.
The glue will induce some swelling at the moment of assembly. I recommend hide glue for dovetails as this allows more time to get things together.

I mark all crosscuts with a knife. I take a very light pass the first time, and score deeper on two following passes.
If you're using a marking gauge, mark only the joint your about to cut - as you've seen, small variance in board thickness can result in alignment errors.

Watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3mphsKGJg) for a MUCH easier marking out method.

When marking out the pins, I find it helpful to mark with a knife and attempt to "reach under" the tail to cut a slightly heavy pin.
(See 2:18 of the video above for an illustration of the hand position.)

That gives me something to pare, which I find preferable to shimming a loose joint.

I would caution against repeated fitting dovetail joints together, as it bruises adjoining pieces and can make the final product loose.
I concentrate my efforts on the bottom corners, where loose fibers from sawing always seem to gather. I love my LN floats for this step.

I check the cut of each pin and tenon for perpendicular orientation to the "show face" with a small ruler.
Laid in the joint, a small ruler will magnify misalignments and show where paring should take place (thanks to Phil Lowe who casually tossed off that little nugget).

I find that if all the faces are perpendicular to the show face, things will go together. It's tedious, but it beats widdling every intersection.

If you're cutting with a bandsaw, check the first tail and first pin for this critical alignment - then you should be off to the races.

Lastly, I find that using the "140 trick" to establish a small rabbet on the tail board to get both solid registry against the pin board
and to help make for a tighter joint on assembly. If you don't have a fenced block plane to cut the rabbet, it's an additional few steps (http://woodworksbyjohn.blogspot.com/2013/01/stanley-140-trick-without-140.html)
with either a saw and small router or a finely adjusted table saw.

[jamie shard]

I'm replying to remind myself more than anything...

It's not a bad idea to chop out the baseline starting a little into the waste area, remove some depth, then slowly pare back to the actual knifecut on the baseline. I've even seen people mark a knifeline 1/64th into the waste, do everything pretending that's the real baseline, and then take one final cut to the real baseline. Even slight taps on the knifeline can push back the baseline.

[Floyd Mah]

Here is my technique for cutting the baseline. It works very well and gives you a nice even cut at the baseline and then provides a shelf to remove the remainder of the waste. Also I guarantee the dovetails will look much better for a reason I give below.

The pitfall in chiseling technique is that the chisel actually travels in the direction of the mid-plane of the wedge, not along one edge as you might think. You will crush the fibers along the non-beveled edge, despite how much you try to control the chisel by holding it rigidly. Also, as you sight along the flat face, you would find it hard to always hold it parallel to your baseline, leading to a jagged baseline cut.

What you want to do first is to score the actual baseline, in between the tails or pins, with a very sharp razor. Since there is a slight bevel to the razor's cutting edge, be sure to tilt the plane of the razor blade slightly towards the waste end. Cut about 1/32 to 1/16" depth. This will sever the fibers on the waste side. (If you examine any of the rabbet planes which cut across the grain, there is a cutter which precedes the blade which scores the line of the final cut. This is the same principle). Cut with one placement of the guide straight-edge. This will assure that the baseline cuts will be lined up all across. If you were to try this with chisels, in my experience, the baseline will be jagged.

Now that the fibers are cut, you want to remove the bit of waste so that you have a shelf for chopping the remainder. If you plant the end of the chisel into the scored line, you will crush the fibers on the good side. The reason for this is that the end of the chisel is a wedge. When you drive the chisel, it will try to head in the direction of the mid-plane of the wedge, damaging both the good side and the waste. This is not what you want.

What you actually do is place the tip of the chisel about 1/16 to 3/32" from the scored line, bevelled side towards the waste. When you strike the chisel, two things will happen. The wedge of the chisel will drive the chisel (which was held vertically at 90 degrees) into the wood, but also slightly towards the keeper end. This will cause the small chip of wood to rise at the scored end, while the chisel end is depressed into the wood. What you will get is a chip removed from the workpiece. One side will be perfectly even (the scored end) and the other side will be crushed by the chisel. On the workpiece, you will have a small groove: the keeper side will be perfectly even (the scored side) and the other edge will be crushed.

Do this for both sides of the board. I usually remove the waste with a coping saw and then pare the waste between the shelved areas with the board held vertically in a vise.

Give this a try. You'll be surprised at how clean your dovetail will look. In addition, having created a shelf for chopping the waste, it become a lot easier to finish the chopping.

[Prashun Patel]

Wow, guys. This is generous and valuable information. Thanks SO much. I'm going to try these techniques.

[jamie shard]

Agreed! (Floyd, thank you for that description, I could "see" it as I read it!)

[Floyd Mah]

Despite your best efforts, when you first start trying to cut dovetails, you end up having to pare the pins and tails to get a good fit. When I first attempted this, I found that I had unsightly gaps where I had cut incorrectly, so when the pieces are fitted together, there were holes where I didn't want them. So, how do you avoid this?

If you want to do this without making cutting jigs, which work well to directing your cuts, what you need to do is examine your joints carefully. It turns out that if you study the mismatched joint, there are sides of each interface that can be pared, even undercut, without it being visible on the final work. I don't mean the visible wood on the surface, but the wood just below the surface where the resistance to a perfect match is.

Imagine this: Suppose that only the surface of the joint existed, that is, it was paper-thin. In your final work, that is the part that is easy to cut, after all, it is paper-thin. You could cut it with a light touch of the paring chisel. You could get a perfect result every time! That's not the part of the joint that is giving you trouble.

So, next move on to the part of the joint that is giving you trouble. That's the stuff that is below the surface. You can tell where it is because that's where the wood is burnished when you push the parts together. Use a pencil and mark that area. Now pare that area away. Also note that not all of the joint is visible from the external examination. Those parts of the joint you have more liberty with, since an error cutting that part isn't going to show in the final work. Of course, these areas are responsible for the final rigidness of the joint, but cosmetically, they are less important. Stay away from the surface unless there is a gross mismatch because you cut the joint incorrectly (bad saw cuts).

I want to re-emphasize the part about staying away from the material on the surface as much as possible. Also, remember that since there are two sides to each interface, try to trim only one side at a time. Mark that side with the pencil.

It's important to use a pencil to mark the tight areas. I tend to forget where I wanted to trim after the first few shavings. After you have trimmed the pencil-shaded areas, try the fit and repeat.

Again, I guarantee your joint will look much better with this process. The most important thing to remember is which areas are cosmetically less important and which areas are visible in the final result.

[Floyd Mah]

My last suggestion is that if you have a choice between making the workpiece slightly long or slightly short, make it slightly long. The reason is that if your goal is to fit a drawer into a predetermined space, it's easier to trim the box with a small, sharp plane than it is to make it grow bigger. Also, pertaining to my previous post, beware of vigorous paring to make the joints fit, since previously hidden gaps can be uncovered as you plane the joint down.

I'll try to be more clear. When you are done fitting the joint and before trimming, the sides of the joint will be slightly proud, not the pins or tails. If you are trimming the ends of the pins or tails, you are shortening the lengths. When you trim the sides, you are converging on the desired lengths of the box.

I remember reading about cutting dovetail joints when I first started. Someone recommended getting two 4 foot lengths of board and cutting joints. When you are done, cut the joint off and start over. When you finally run out of wood, you are an expert.

[Prashun Patel]

Here is my latest attempt. 2" thick glued up ash. I'm amazed how much easier it is to saw straight in thicker stock. Even though you have a longer distance to cut, the saw just keeps the line better; I guess the thick stock acts like a good guide.

I think I'm getting the hang of the base lines of the pins. Honestly, I haven't found the magic; it just seems to get easier with practice. When placing my chisel on the base of even before I strike I can now predict a little better whether it's going to compromise the fit.

What I'm still having trouble with is the base lines of the tails. In a way, this is the most visible part of the joint on drawers. I'm going to practice undercutting the meat in between the three shoulders. I do rabbet my tail insides, which is great for pin alignment. However, it puts demands on proper gauge setting for the depth of the tails. I wonder if there are very slight misalignments between the inside baseline and the outside ones. I wonder if cutting the outside shoulders a hair shallower than the inside will fix this...

[Robert Hazelwood]

Those outside shoulders of the tails (half-pin socket) are tough. Assuming you're marking the baseline all around with a knife, you should be able to see the track of the knife line in the finished shoulder. I usually end up paring these down. If I try to take big bites with the chisel I will find that the knife track disappears (i.e. my chisel got pushed down past the knife line). That ends up being a gap. I found best results by using a chisel that is narrower than the shoulder width and paring in from all 3 sides. I chisel at a slightly upward angle that leaves the inner area proud. Then I come back and level or slightly hollow the inner area. Don't place the chisel directly into the knife line until there is just a tiny sliver of wood left above it.

That's a tedious but effective way to do it.