Some help with "appropriate" looking hardware.

[Chris Griggs]

Hey friends,

Posted a few pics of this cabinet in progress a few weeks ago in the "what's on your bench besides sharpening stones thread". Well, as you can see from the bad cell phone pics it's pretty much finished now, FINALLY...just got to attach some hardware and nail on the T&G back. Lots and lots and LOTS of flaws that the cell pics don't show, but nonetheless I'm fairly pleased with it overall.

So anyway, having some trouble deciding if I want to use the pulls I originally picked out for this piece...or if there is some other type of pull or latch that would look more "appropriate" to the style. I put the word "appropriate" in quotations as I don't really know if this piece fits into some type of specific style or period. It was loosely inspired Michael Dunbar's "Colonial Cupboard" (http://5.forums.drupal.assets.tauntonnet.com/sites/forums.finewoodworking.com/files/attach_images/117921/Colonial_Cupboard-Lex._Green.jpg) in FWW #151, but I made a number of changes to the design to fit my specific needs (e.g. removed face frame, used butt hinges, double doors, figured maple, etc..). I guess I'd say its supposed to look generically vintagey or vintage-esc, but again, I don't know if it fits any particular style (please enlighten me if it does)

The ring pulls are very nice pulls from Horton Brasses, but when I first got them I really thought I'd made the wrong choice. I temporarily double stuck taped them to the cabinet about 2/3rds the way up the door for the sake of these photos, which I've been staring at repeatedly trying to decide if I like them or not. They are growing on me quite a bit but I'm still curious if there is something else that might be more fitting. Also, I've been staring at them way too long and need some other sets of eye to tell me if they look good or out of place.

As an added challenge in hardware selection. To fit the proportions of the case and highlight the panels, I made the stiles fairly narrow. They are only about 1 1/4" from the outside edge to the inner edge of the bead (so about 1.5" with bead) so whatever I choose needs to have a diameter smaller than a 1 1/4". I started thinking tear drop pulls, being kinda long and thin, might fit the proportions of the piece well, but those are so style/period specific I was worried they might look out of place (then again if they look good I guess it doesn't matter)...

Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on the ring pulls shown in the pic and/or any alternative suggestions for a pull or latch or something?
I don't know what I'm doing. I look at pics of things I like, change them to fit my specific needs (in this case to store DVDs), and when I manage to stop farting around in the shop long enough to actually get something done I'm lucky enough to accomplish building a piece of half decent furniture a couple times of year. So yeah any words of wisdom are appreciated, especially from those who know something about furniture styles and design. Actually, even if you don't know jack about furniture style I'd still like to know what you think of the ring pulls...I just can't make up my mind about them and I figure after all the time this thing has been sitting in my shop I don't mind spending a little extra time making sure the hardware on it looks nice.

Oh yeah, this post in the Neander section a) because its pretty much the only place I post and b) as always it was made entirely with handtools minus the molding which were shaped at the router table (oh yeah, used the my little DW745 ts to kerf 2" into each side of the board I resawed the panels from, as its a heck of a lot quicker and easier to hand saw through 4" of material than 8".)

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[Mel Fulks]

That's nice looking. The pulls on it are fine ,nothing discordant about them. I was thinking drop pulls before you mentioned them. They are period specific but the shape is so tear drop organic that I don't think that matters. You could always use the drops with an unusual back plate instead of alone.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Mel. That's helpful. When I first bought the pulls I sent an image to Dave Weaver of them stuck to the incomplete cabinet and he thought they looked fine too. I don't know why, but as much as I think they are cool pulls I kept worrying that they looked somehow out of place. Sometimes you just need a couple extra sets of eyes to give you perspective. Maybe I'll order some tear drop pulls (http://www.horton-brasses.com/store/handlespulls/droppulls/williammary) too, as I have a couple other things I need to order from Horton. Then I can decide which I like best and it never hurts to have a bit of spare hardware around. Originally I really wanted to go with stir up pulls (http://www.horton-brasses.com/store/handlespulls/droppulls/stirruppulls) which is what is on the FWW design, and while they would fit the style nicely they tend to be wider than they are long and don't fit the proportions of the stiles.

Appreciate the feedback!

[Greg Portland]

My (novice) opinion:

The rings seem close to each other visually and IMO pulls the eye away from the nice grain pattern you've got on the door faces. It might be worth mocking up 2 thin vertical wooden pulls (a few inches tall) in a contrasting wood. The pull lines may complement the lines shown by the hinges.

[Chris Hachet]

My (novice) opinion:

The rings seem close to each other visually and IMO pulls the eye away from the nice grain pattern you've got on the door faces. It might be worth mocking up 2 thin vertical wooden pulls (a few inches tall) in a contrasting wood. The pull lines may complement the lines shown by the hinges.You and I are thinking a lot alike here sir....but then again, I am also something of a novice....

[Chris Griggs]

My (novice) opinion:

The rings seem close to each other visually and IMO pulls the eye away from the nice grain pattern you've got on the door faces. It might be worth mocking up 2 thin vertical wooden pulls (a few inches tall) in a contrasting wood. The pull lines may complement the lines shown by the hinges.

Yeah, the closeness together was what concerned me. I just couldn't figure out if it looked odd or not.

And the wood pulls were actually something that I thought too as I was looking at the pics today. I was thinking I could mock up a handle out of walnut and ebonize it, and see how that would look.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Sam Murdoch]

Are the hinges just ball tip mortise hinges in brass? Other answer pending...

[Chris Griggs]

Are the hinges just ball tip mortise hinges in brass? Other answer pending...

Brass yes, antiqued finish brass specifically. Mortised butt hinges. Ball tip, no.

These are the hinges: http://www.horton-brasses.com/store/hinges/brassnickel/rolledbarrel

[Sam Murdoch]

Well first off Chris it is a really pretty little cabinet. I really like the proportions. I think your instincts were right - the ring pulls are just not making it to my eye either. My inclination is to use a knob on an elongated backing plate - to raise the knobs to the top 3rd of the doors and to use longer hinges too. You probably don't want to mess with the hinges and so I have yet to find the right match of pull. Not much help. I have looked at the Horton site without success.

Here is an idea of what I envision - http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&show=&Offset=40&SortBy=code-asc&Category_Code=CABib&CpValue=&CpField= The 4 in the second row and especially the last one on the far right in that row. These are all iron, which I think would look great but brass or bronze could be good too if you could find them. Once you pick a back plate find a simple small knob or eve a drop or ring pull that compliments the back plate. White Chapel has a few examples of items that they have matched up.

Sorry if I am just adding to the uncertainty.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Chris,

I think that is a beautiful little cabinet.


...So yeah any words of wisdom are appreciated, especially from those who know something about furniture styles and design. Actually, even if you don't know jack about furniture style I'd still like to know what you think of the ring pulls...


I most certainly qualify for the "don't know jack" category, so please take anything I say with that in mind.
The rings do look a bit close together for my eye, but probably only because you are mentioning it, and from a style standpoint, I don't think they are out of place at all.
What would I put on there? Well.. just keep the "don't know jack statement" in mind, but for myself, I would use a simple round pull made of steel and flame blued or plumb browned, but that's just because I love steel hardware.

-Jeff

[Chris Griggs]

Sam first of all. YOU'RE the man. Add to uncertainty all you want. This is good stuff to learn.

Secondly. Thank you for commenting on the proportions. While the I'm not happy with more parts of the execution than I would care to admit I worked very carefully planned the design and am thrilled that it shows. Every thing was deliberaty proportion based on the width that was decided based on the amount of space I wanted to fit it in. The main body is about 20.5" wide, the height is 2x that at 41". At about 5" the base is 1/8 of the total height. At 1.5" wide the rails and styles are 2x the width of the approximate thickness of the case sides. Seriously, very glad that you think the proportions work, as I was sorta just spit balling.

Third, thank you for the suggestions and for taking the time to look through stuff so thoughtfully. You are correct I will stick with the hinges that are there. I considered longer more decorative ones, but I didn't want to overdo the hardware.

I did consider something with a back plate and was contemplating this earlier today http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/product/01REPdrop/44PH10.html

Iron you say? Won't that look odd with brass hinges? I was assuming that the pulls would need to be some typed of antiqued brass.

Sam, thanks again for all the food for thought.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Jeff. I don't know jack either which is why I'm happy to accept the advice of those that don't know jack. The knob is certainly a possibility, something I considered greatly, but I for some reason (perhaps the proportions) thought that something hanging would look best. Really though, you can't go wrong with a know as long as the correct size is selected. I don't think a basic knob could really look out of place in anyway.

Man! Picking hardware is hard, I always struggle with it. And it's not something that is tackled that much by the mags and other education stuff. I'm glad people are chiming in about this. It really helpful to hear different peoples thoughts.

[Shawn Pixley]

I am with others here. I like the ring aesthetic but the are a bit oversized relative to the stile dimension making them a bit too close together. For my money, I would want a minimum of a half of the ring diameter clear between the two handles.

I would make small vertical wooden pulls if it were mine. To purchase, my first suggestion is smaller ringed pulls. My second if the first are unavailable, would be a small porcelain knob over a small brass baking plate.

Very nice work on the cabinet!

[Chris Griggs]

I am with others here. I like the ring aesthetic but the are a bit oversized relative to the stile dimension making them a bit too close together. For my money, I would want a minimum of a half of the ring diameter clear between the two handles.

I would make small vertical wooden pulls if it were mine. To purchase, my first suggestion is smaller ringed pulls. My second if the first are unavailable, would be a small porcelain knob over a small brass baking plate.

Very nice work on the cabinet!

Okay so it seams like the majority are agreeing what my initial concern was, that it, that the rings are just to wide for the diameter. There are smaller rings available and while they would look more in proportion with the width of the stiles I think they would look to small for the overall proportion of the cabinet.

Seems like the concesus is something longer and narrower to fit the overall proportions, so that could be a knob with a small maybe slightly elongated back plate, some other narrower hanging pull (e.g. teardrop), or vertical wooden (or other material) handle.

Again, really appreciate the compliments and suggestions. Lots to think about. Feel free to keep'em coming. All suggestions welcome.

[Mel Fulks]

I can't tell whether the rings are formed from round stock or made from flat. Any way if the former ,they could be bent into an oval.If flat ,filed to oval. That would put some distance between them and make them more vertical.

[Sam Murdoch]

Sam first of all. YOU'RE the man. Add to uncertainty all you want. This is good stuff to learn.

Secondly. Thank you for commenting on the proportions. While the I'm not happy with more parts of the execution than I would care to admit I worked very carefully planned the design and am thrilled that it shows. Every thing was deliberaty proportion based on the width that was decided based on the amount of space I wanted to fit it in. The main body is about 20.5" wide, the height is 2x that at 41". At about 5" the base is 1/8 of the total height. At 1.5" wide the rails and styles are 2x the width of the approximate thickness of the case sides. Seriously, very glad that you think the proportions work, as I was sorta just spit balling.

Third, thank you for the suggestions and for taking the time to look through stuff so thoughtfully. You are correct I will stick with the hinges that are there. I considered longer more decorative ones, but I didn't want to overdo the hardware.

I did consider something with a back plate and was contemplating this earlier today http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/product/01REPdrop/44PH10.html

Iron you say? Won't that look odd with brass hinges? I was assuming that the pulls would need to be some typed of antiqued brass.

Sam, thanks again for all the food for thought.


I wasn't suggesting iron but rather the idea of the backplate in a finish to match or complement your chosen hinges. (Though an all iron hardware package would be nice.) The pull that you linked to is PERFECT, but I think you need to choose a hinge that matches the finish even if it means a bit more mortising. I would very comfortably toss the ring pulls (though I seem to be a lone voice in that regard :rolleyes:). We just need to help you find a complimentary hinge and everyone would see your keen instinct :).

[Sam Murdoch]

OK and so here is the style of hinge - plain and simple- could be taller - could be a bit more decorative but will work well nonetheless. http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&show=&Offset=0&SortBy=code-asc&Category_Code=01REPhinge&CpValue=&CpField (http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&show=&Offset=0&SortBy=code-asc&Category_Code=01REPhinge&CpValue=&CpField=)




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[Chris Griggs]

Did a quick paper mockup of the backplate for those pulls and stuck them to the cabinet, so the lowest part of the plate is 2/3rds the way up the door just to get an idea of how the basic proportions will look (please ignore Mogwai the shop cat. He enjoys following me down to the basement and laying in piles of shavings which than stick to his fur and he tracks all over the house)

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I really like the proportions of the plates and think they fit the stiles and the cabinet as a whole very well. I'm pretty sold on the idea that those are THE right pulls for this piece.

Sam why do you think I need different hinges to go with them. Is it the finish on the hardware? Even though they are both "antique finish" they do look they might be a little different, but I figure they'll be pretty close and if the hinges are a little darker I can probably rub them lightly with a polishing cloth or something to give them a little lighter patina like the pulls look like they have.

Or is it specifically the ball hinges you think are needed? Is specific to a time or a style or something?

Also, I notice that at one point you said that longer hinges might be warrented. When I posted the link to the ones on there I did not specify that the one on there are the 2 1/2" one. I see that the image you posted is also 2 1/2", so do you think something longer like a 3" is needed?

I guess I just am trying to avoid buying $80 worth of hinge and having to refit as well, it would be helpful to me to know why you think the hinges you linked to are more appropriate (and why the ones on there are not).

Also, what about these (the PB-409B at the bottom) http://www.horton-brasses.com/store/hinges/brassnickel/precisionbutt

Nice hinges, that would hopefully more or less fit my current mortises with minimal adjustment, ball tipped, and a good bit less expensive than the one from White Chappel (prices for Horton are per pair, and whitechappel per hinge, and both are pretty high quality).

Thanks again for all the insights! Very much appreciated.

[Chris Griggs]

.....The pull that you linked to is PERFECT, but I think you need to choose a hinge that matches the finish even if it means a bit more mortising....

Okay I don't know how I missed this when I posted my array of questions above. Feel free to ignore. Yeah, its hard to tell if the finishes would match or not. The White chappel is more of a varying patina and the horton is more of a uniform medium brown patina.

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I think I'll just order the pulls for now and see how well the finishes match. I think Horton says you can polish off the patina they add to their stuff so I'm thinking I can give their hinges a bit of a rub with a sunshine polishing cloth and make them more of a varied patina like the pulls if needed.

Worst case scenario I decide to go back and order more hinges anyway.

[Sam Murdoch]

Chris, I just think that a more decorative hinge would compliment the pull better. I like this style of finial even better than the ball tip. These are from Lee Valley. In this photo I'm just trying to show the finial not the style or color of hinge -

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Great idea to do a mock up by the way. Try raising them up 3" just to see...

Glad I could help.

[Mel Fulks]

There is a long history of the hinges matching, and not matching. Seen many antiques with brass escutcheon and pulls and steel,iron hinges. Either way works ,I lean toward staying with the ones you have.Probably more from conditioning than anything else.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, I just think that a more decorative hinge would compliment the pull better. I like this style of finial even better than the ball tip. These are from Lee Valley. In this photo I'm just trying to show the finial not the style or color of hinge -

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Great idea to do a mock up by the way. Try raising them up 3" just to see...

Glad I could help.

I can tell by your avatar that you like finials :)

They are cool looking. I'll keep looking around at Horton, White Chappel, Ball&ball, and LV, and see if I can find something that I like and that will fit the existing mortises without having to add wood back in that I've already removed.

Yeah. I'll totally try moving them around a bit. I tried the ring pulls in all sorts of places and settled on 2/3rd just because it looked "right" to my eye, so that's where I put the mock ups. I can see a little higher being good too though. Anywhere around 2/3rd up and to a little higher than that seems to be about right.


There is a long history of the hinges matching, and not matching. Seen many antiques with brass escutcheon and pulls and steel,iron hinges. Either way works ,I lean toward staying with the ones you have.Probably more from conditioning than anything else.

I read that somewhere else recently. I don't remember where, but someone/something said that matching hardware is a relatively new occurrence. Interesting. I'll need to educate myself a bit more and see if I can find some images of antiques that have non-matching hardware. Though for now I'm going to keep things matching as best as I can.

Guys, you've been a big help. I'm certain I have found the right pulls now (hopefully I'll still feel that way when I get them). I'm going to stew on the hinges thing for a while, but will be sure to post what I end up with.

Thanks!

[Sam Murdoch]

I can tell by your avatar that you like finials :)

Surprisingly I typically don't use hardware that attracts attention but these I like very much and so have used them on 2 cabinets. They are the European Iron Fiche cabinet hinges that White Chapel sells - http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/category/CABEIFCH.html They do make a nice avatar :).

As for matching hardware I just believe that they need to be as complimentary to the whole as every other feature of the work. No sense in taking all kinds of time to sweat the details and proportions of your woodworking then throw on hardware as if it were an afterthought. I am not a furniture historian but I'm guessing that professional shops that had access to good supplies or other artisans would not deliberately mix and match hardware. Small rural shops on the other hand may have needed to avail themselves with what they could buy or make locally or to what they had on hand at any given time. This likely led to a more eclectic hardware choice. Then of course time and use (or abuse) resulted in lots of mismatching. No excuse for that these days so I, for one, will do my best to select knobs/pulls that are at the least visual cousins to the hinges used together where these items are visible as details on the piece.

Looking forward to seeing your "finished" cabinet Chris.