HVLP advice needed

[Matt Allan]

This is only partly a woodworking question but I know a lot of you guys have conversion guns. I am totally ignorant in spraying and have only done spraying out of a can. That is pretty much my knowledge of spraying as well.

What brings me to wanting to start spraying is a house remodel. I would like to use this in my woodworking later, but my main purpose is spraying doors/trim. I will be repairing and painting every door in this house by the time I am done and painting all new trim for the house. I would very much like to be able to spray all of this and would like to use satin acrylic enamel.

I read Jim Beckers review on the Wagner HVLP Conversion Gun(BTW, nice review Jim) and that seems like an affordable option if it can handle what I need. Currently I only have a 2HP portercable pancake compressor, which according to what I have read would be sufficient for this gun but would like some opinions on that as well.

Will this gun do what I need? Is there a better opinion without spending a lot?

Any thoughts, advice, comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Matt

[Jim Becker]

The Wagner gun is great...and I also just got the version with the 2qt external cup. One thing, though...it's not the best kind of rig for heavy spraying of latex paint. You can do it, but you need to change the projector set to a larger size and use Flotrol to the limit (which isn't much) to spray this thick stuff effectively. This will also apply to any other HVPL gun in theory. In general, airless systems are better for latex, but you can get away with the HVPL conversion gun with proper configuration and adjustment.

[Matt Allan]

Jim,

Thanks for the reply, the Wagner is mainly what I am looking at and even emailed gleempaint with a few questions last night but still waiting on a reply.

I don't think I would be shooting much latex. Do you think it can do a decent job with acrylic enamel and my smallish 2hp compressor?

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Acrylics are what that gun does best! I've sprayed both the Fuhr 9100 and Target Coatings PSL (now USL) in that respect when I did our kitchen cabinets back in 2003. (At the time, Target didn't offer a tint base so I needed to use the Fuhr for the green upper cabinets)

[Matt Allan]

Well my main concern was just my compressor. I don't need to be able to go nonstop for long periods of time but don't want to get a bad job because of an undersized compressor. I always thought I would need a much larger one. Then again I know nothing about spraying so what I thought is kind of pointless :)

Do you know of a good online resource I can read up on the basics? Right now I just want to shoot white satin enamel on interior doors. White Benjamin Moore Satin Impervo® Enamel is what was recommended to me for all my interior doors, but I am not sure if this is a good choice for a spray? Do you need to thin when doing this, the directions for that say you can spray but should not be thinned.

I am very confused. :)

[Mike Vermeil]

Matt - I also have the Wagner HVLP conversion gun from Gleem Paints and have had very good results shooting latex enamel, although I've shot less than a gallon of that paint type. I just started using the gun on my last project (an ent. center - sorry, no pics yet), and to date have shot about 1.5 gallons of Behr oil based primer, 1 gallon of Glidden oil-based enamel top coat, 1/2 gallon of Dunn Edwards Permashield latex enamel, and a couple quarts of Minwax water-based polyurethane. I purchased the larger projector kit along with the gun, but achieved best results in all cases with the standard needle, nozzle & air cap. When I tried to use the larger projector kit with the latex paint (for which I had bought the kit in the first place), it came out in large splatters no matter how much I adjusted the material flow, presures, etc. I went back to the smaller stuff & the paint shot and laid out perfectly - even without flotrol. Maybe this was just beginner's luck, but the results were great! I'm in Phoenix, so I've been wondering if the higher temp could have had something to do with the latex paint being thinner & shooting better, but conversely, it should have made it more difficult for the paint to lay out.

In any case, I've had much success with every finish I've shot so far with the gun, and when you consider the price of roughly 125 smackers, you can't beat it.

As far as your compressor goes, if the guys at Gleem say it can handle it volume wise, I'm sure it can. Just be careful that the compressor doesn't overheat & burn up from running continuously for too long of a time.

[John Cavanaugh]

Mike,

Im in the middle of replacing the baseboard trimwork (about 260 lf) on the main floor in my house. I tried doing some of the painting with a brush, but it was just not working since it was leaving brush marks etc. So I determined I needed a sprayer (Any excuse for a new tool, right?? :o )

I just took the plunge and ordered the Wagner unit based on Jim Beckers review & recommendation. I ordered it from Amazon for $139, at the same time I also ordered the D55155 compressor refurbed (on a great deal) from an Amazon seller. Only downside to the purchase was that my wife now wants me to replace the baseboard trimwork on the other floors to "justify" the purchase.

Good luck with your remodeling work.

--
John Cavanaugh

[Phil Phelps]

I haven't been a "regular" on the Creek for some time, Matt. But those that know me, know I don't use latex enamel on any wood inside the house. Satin Impervo, by Benjamin Moore, is a great product. I'm spraying my kitchen cabinet doors this week. But I have a big advantage. I have a shop and an airless sprayer. That is the only thing I recommend for spraying oil enamel. Using a siphon gun, you simply have to reduce the paint too much and it kills the sheen. I'ts also hard to avoid runs and sags while spraying vertically because of thin paint. I have little experience with the Wagner gun. I wouldn't attempt to use it on large projects. I also wouldn't spray pre hung cabinets with a compressor generated gun. The bounce from the spray isn't worth it. If you have an empty home, clean, sand, and prime all wood work, you might consider renting an airless, using a fine finish tip. There is a large amount of overspray, though. You'll have to cover the floors, windows, etc. For a one time paint job on the house, I'd use an enamel roller cover and china bristle brush on flat work. Brush the rest. And again, no to latex enamel for interior wood work.

[Mike Vermeil]

But I have a big advantage. I have a shop and an airless sprayer. That is the only thing I recommend for spraying oil enamel. Using a siphon gun, you simply have to reduce the paint too much and it kills the sheen. I'ts also hard to avoid runs and sags while spraying vertically because of thin paint.

The Wagner conversion gun is a pressure feed unit, and will spray oil-based enamel with minimal thining. I thined a bit the latest batch of oil-based paint I sprayed mainly to help the paint lay-out in the higher temps we've been having. In general though, I agree. Siphon feed guns seem useless for any thick paints.

[Matt Allan]

But I have a big advantage. I have a shop and an airless sprayer. That is the only thing I recommend for spraying oil enamel.
Phil,

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any recommendations on decent airless sprayer? I have tried to look but hard for me to figure out what is decent and what is just a waste of money. I wouldn't spend a ton at this point, but if I can get a good unit and use it for everything I need I would not be opposed to spending a little money. I could convert use my 2 car garage to spray things if needed.

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Matt, if this is somewhat of a "one time deal" why not rent an airless? It's not going to be useful in the shop most of the time since it's ideal for latex and other thick coatings only.

[Phil Phelps]

Matt, I bought a rental from the company I buy my Benjamin Moore products. I use it about twice a year. As I said, I can use oil base enamel and make shutters look like plastic. I love it for the few things I do with it. The correct tip is essential for the type paint you use. I paid a grand for my SprayTech unit. The bad thing is small jobs are cumbersome. You need at least a gallon of paint to crank up the airless. But, I have used my HVLP's and shot plenty of alkyd enamel. Spray tips and needles are important. And you need to cut the enamel by thirty to forty percent. You'll need at least two coats. My experience is high gloss will net semi-gloss and satin will become eggshell. It makes it hard when you spray doors and brush styles and such. I use un-cut (maybe five %) for the first coat and follow up with the thinned (sprayed) product to make an even finish for both. I hired "real pros" ( I had no time) to paint my "new re-do" home. The contractor quoted the job and kept two men going for about 300 hours work. They never cranked up an airless and the house was empty. After you prep your wood work and get everything ready, (that's the real work) the enameling goes faster than you think. It is still major work, but probably better than masking off everything. Even having a painters paddle, and a helper, spraying is risky. E-mail me any time, or call me, I'll be glad to help, if I can.

[Matt Allan]

The reason I wanted to buy was because I had planned on doing each room as I got there instead of taking down all the doors and doing them at once and having to paint all in 1 day. I also wanted to spray the trim and do that in each room. My plan was just to get all the trim and doors ready for each room and spray those. Then again when we got to the next room.

BTW, in case I wasn't clear I am not doing kitchen cabinet doors at all. All interior regular doors. All solid wood 6 raised panel doors.

The doors and trim now are in bad shape, previous owners painted a few times and didn't do a great job. Some runs, puddles, lot of brush marks. I guess I am going to have to strip some of the panels to get rid of the excess and sand the rest. Coming from a new construction house that was sprayed and done very well this is driving me nuts.

I had figured learning enough skill to spray I could get better results than roller/brush. Don't really want to spend a grand, or do them all at once with a nice rental. Thought I was going to be able to get by with just using the conversion gun. So now I have no idea what I am going to do.. :)

Really appreciate your time to reply guys..

[John Hulett]

I'm just a bit confused. It seems that different sprayers are better (or only) suited for paint vs. finish. I guess what I'm asking is, can the Wagner conversion gun be used for BOTH paint AND finish (varnish, shellac, etc.)? If not, which is preferred for which?

[Phil Phelps]

You can use a spray gun for all kinds of different materials. I use way more materials than the average guy. I use a conversion HVLP for enamel undercoat, lacquer, poly, automotive products and other special paints and products. Latex paint just doesn't do well through a HVLP. The main reason is you have to cut the paint to atomize it properly. You don't thin your latex before you roll it? You really break it down when you do. Same for latex enamel. Now, lot's of folks swear they have done a great job with a Wagner gun, and they probably do, and have. But not for professional painting on a daily basis and for large projects. Airless spray guns are fabulous for latex, latex enamel, oil base products. They even spray stains. But the job needs to warrent quite a bit of paint. And the overspray is tremendous. HVLP guns put out about 80% less overspray than a regular siphon gun. And Matt, you can remove those doors and spray them elsewhere. I would also not recommed you stripping anything. Man, what a mess. Use your RO sander from 100, 150 and 220 grit. You'll have those doors looking like new in no time. And here is a rule of thumb I use 99% of the time. You can't one coat anything. Always prepare for two coats. And please, don't rush the job. You know how long it takes for oil paint to cure? One month. Cure, now. Not dry to touch. Hope this helps.

[Matt Allan]

Phil, do you think its worth a try at using a HVLP conversion gun for shooting the doors and trim with an alkyd enamel like the Impervo? If I got bad results I wouldn't be heartbroken because I have been wanting to get one for learning to shoot lacquer, poly and such for my woodworking anyway. Good excuse to jump in now if I could get dual uses it would be great. If it is utterly pointless though, I may just wait on it though. That seems like it will be my only method of spraying without spending more than I want, if that doesn't work I guess ill start practicing with a roller and brush :) Would REALLY like to spray if at all possible though.

Thanks

[Phil Phelps]

When I first visited a woodworking forum, I was amazed what folks could do in their garages. I have a 6000 sq.ft. shop, and when I do stuff in my garage, it looks like a four year old did it. But the one thing that craftsmen lack is a spray booth. When they hear of the HVLP spray gun, they think their ship has come. But you still need to wear a respirator, and have ventilation for the 20% overspray. You must exercise caution when spraying flamable products, lacquer especially. The HVLP does reduce the overspray considerably, but it also delivers three times as much material. Your method of siphon gun spraying has changed dramatically.You must get used to the gun. Having said all that, yes I think the HVLP is fantastic. You can buy cheap ones, but you probably get what you pay for. Mine was $400, a conversion gun used with an air compressor, but some go higher. The HVLP's with their own turbine compressors are great, but pricey. Remember, HVLP stands for high velocity low pressure. A conversion gun needs about 70 psi from the compressor and converts the pressure at the gun to about 6 psi. A conventional siphon gun runs at about 30 - 40 psi. I've run both guns from a five horse, 30 gallon tank. The compressor runs frequently. However, you still have to thin your material, and this is a problem with alkyd products. You won't be using the product at full strength and two coats will be more than likely. Also, the sheen will be altered to the flatter side of the gloss you choose. Thin paint, vertical door, high volumn delivery, may make a mess the first time. You can't just "mist" the project. You need wet coats. That's hard to do with the object in a vertical position. You may get good results from the new Wagner guns, but I have no experience with them. If they were wonderful and produced fantastic work, all the pros would use them. They don't and I remain skeptical. Changing gears, when I say roller-brush method, I mean paint reduced about 5% +, emamel roller cover, and really good china bristle brush. You apply the enamel with the roller, and with a loaded brush, you finish out. Your finish is only as good as the preparation. However, if a person uses latex enamel, that's not the case. You can not brush out latex enamel like you can alkyd. In most cases, it's not even close. The worst jobs I've ever seen were done with latex enamel. And, it simply is not as durable. Let me know what you decide, and good luck.

[John Lucas]

Matt,
A late reply. Your 2 hp compressor is going to have a hard time keeping up with the conversion hvlp sprayers. And one other thought, if you are going to do one room at a time, use brush. A brush with good paint, good prep can give you as fine a job as any sprayer. Prime, sand (180) lightly, paint with oil thinned down 10% and then sand 400 grit lightly and final coat. It's done. By the way the Target USP with brush also works very well....same way.
I have three sprayers, and big air tank but I brush when it makes sense.

[Matt Allan]

Matt,
A late reply. Your 2 hp compressor is going to have a hard time keeping up with the conversion hvlp sprayers. And one other thought, if you are going to do one room at a time, use brush. A brush with good paint, good prep can give you as fine a job as any sprayer. Prime, sand (180) lightly, paint with oil thinned down 10% and then sand 400 grit lightly and final coat. It's done. By the way the Target USP with brush also works very well....same way.
I have three sprayers, and big air tank but I brush when it makes sense.

well looks like I will be using brushes. So much for a new toy, you guys are no fun.

John, if you don't mind could you tell me what "the Target USP with brush" is? Perhaps I am just missing something but I have no idea what that means. Sorry for being pretty painting ignorant =)

Speaking of which, anyone know of a good paint forum where I can ask some questions?

Thanks again

Matt

[John Lucas]

Matt,
YOu are not painting ignorant. I used USP from Target because I thought it had been mentioned earlier. Target is a very good paint mfr with a specialty of waterborne for spraying. If you go to their website you will see quite a variety of paints and a few of them in white. They are for spraying but also can be brushed...as can many of the Sherwin Williams paints. Whether you go oil or water isnt as important as the steps. First sand to 180 grit and then prime. Let that dry per the instructions and sand to 220 or so. Paint you first coat of top coat having thinned it by 10%. When dry, sand this with 400 and paint straight from the can. On each of the sandings, it take very little time and effort since you are primarily flattening out the brush strokes from coat before. Do no use tack clothes after sanding. I perfer to use paper towels moistened with whatever you use as thinner - mineral sprirts for oil based and water for waterborne.
This is an extensive "recipe" but very easy to do. And the end result is so very worth it.

[Phil Phelps]

I have found that they leave those little fibers in the wood. I never use them. 100% cotton, such as T shirts. make the best rags. And, Matt, I don't think there is a soul on this board that likes to paint. In fact, most run from it. It's not the most fun one could have. But, if you visit a "real" paint store and ask questions about your project, you'll find far more competent answers there than you will at the home centers. And better procucts too.