Need a Mortise Chisel

[Tony Wilkins]

My next project (small shaker table) needs a 1/4" mortise chisel. I had planned to get one of the Ray Iles pig stickers, but they seem to always be out of stock. I've thought about Japanese chisels off and on but I'd like to stay all imperial in sizes. Not sure about the steel or my 'restoration skills' with a vintage. So far as I know that leaves me with Lie-nielsen.

Help me think this out more.

[Dave Pugh]

I am very new to the Neanderthal way, but I have been practicing making mortises with a set of Sorby mortise chisels. I have the 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2". I bought them at the local Woodcraft store. I have always heard good things about Sorby lathe chisels, so I figured their other tools should be ok.

[Lloyd Robins]

Hirsch and Narex would probably have the same problem as the Japanese chisels - nonimperial. I did just rehab a couple of chisels for a graduation present with the help of a turner friend. it was fun, so it is something to talk about. That said, I really like my Lie-Nielsen 1/4" mortise chisel. It should serve you well.

[Roy Lindberry]

My next project (small shaker table) needs a 1/4" mortise chisel. I had planned to get one of the Ray Iles pig stickers, but they seem to always be out of stock. I've thought about Japanese chisels off and on but I'd like to stay all imperial in sizes. Not sure about the steel or my 'restoration skills' with a vintage. So far as I know that leaves me with Lie-nielsen.

Help me think this out more.

I'm not trying to discourage you here, but I have found my bench chisels to be quite adequate for mortises, particularly those 1/2" and under. I have a set of Narex mortise chisels, that I think are good for the money (but they are not Imperial), but they don't really get used.

Paul Sellers demonstrates chopping a mortise with regular bench chisels here (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paul+sellers+mortise&oq=paul+sellers+mortise&gs_l=youtube.3..0l2.92.2799.0.2874.15.8.0.5.5.0.24 8.930.5j0j3.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.cw4Heil1E H8). In his demonstration, the mortise cut with the bench chisel actually comes out cleaner than the one with the mortise chisel (I know, there have been many people that take issue with the bulk of the chisel he uses, and argue that a "real" mortise chisel would perform better, so take it for what its worth - , but bench chisels have worked fine for me since watching this video). And I have been encouraged that as I learn to use the tools I have, I don't necessarily need to spend money on others. Outside of this, I haven't used any mortise chisels besides the Narex, so I can't really make recommendations.

[Chris Vandiver]

In practice, it really doesn't matter whether a mortise chisel is a metric or imperial size. You set your mortise gauge to the chisel(if you are using the mortise directly from the chisel).

I have some of these chisels, which are quite good; http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=312_553_559&products_id=1771

[Hilton Ralphs]

The Narex mortise chisels from Lee Valley are imperial whilst the ones from Highland Woodworking are metric.

Patrick Leach has a couple of pig stickers (2nd hand) but I think he's away at the moment.

[Rick Fisher]

I cant see why it would matter if a mortise chisel was metric or imperial.

[peter gagliardi]

While not common, or cheap, I have found the workmanship and steel to be superb with Barr chisels- handmade here in the USA barrtools.com
Peter

[Derek Cohen]

I posted this on WC where Tony asked the same question. Someone here may be interested in the same issue.

It is a simple matter to make a mortice chisel, although I would redefine this to refer to sash mortice chisels, which are lighter versions. Think LN mortice chisels versus Ray Isles.


I have a bunch of vintage oval bolstered mortice chisels (such as Ward) that I rehandled. These have nearly full length steel, and I think they were a steal, even though they came from eBay as they did over the years. If you look out for the ones with bust handles - that no one else wants - you can do very well. I also have two Ray Isles and, frankly, although the edge does last longer, there is no big advantage over the vintage ones unless you are chopping a lot of mortices.


Anyway, I wanted something smaller for delicate work, a mortice chisel with a shorter and lighter blade, and decided to make my own. For this I used tempered HSS, which is very cheap. The advantage of HSS is that you can grind it without fearing it burning and losing its temper.


These two are 1/4" and 5/16". The blades are 2 3/4" long ....


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/SquaringChisels_html_3a50e2e2.jpg


The pictorial is here:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/SquaringChisels.html


They work very well, and for shallower mortices the parallel sides are not a disadvantage (the vintage oval bolstered versions are tapered).


The other alternative is the Narex from Lee Valley, which I have seen but not used. They are cheap but I have heard good reports.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My next project (small shaker table) needs a 1/4" mortise chisel. I had planned to get one of the Ray Iles pig stickers, but they seem to always be out of stock. I've thought about Japanese chisels off and on but I'd like to stay all imperial in sizes. Not sure about the steel or my 'restoration skills' with a vintage. So far as I know that leaves me with Lie-nielsen.

Help me think this out more.

Here is to thinking it out:

Any 1/4" chisel could be used to do this job.

If you are already sold on doing a lot of mortise work in this size a dedicated chisel for the job may be in order.

If you listed your location, it has slipped my memory at present. You may live near another member who wouldn't mind letting you take a test drive of their set up.

I do not have a 1/4" mortise chisel. I have an old Buck Brothers straight sided chisel in that size that works well for occasional mortise work.

jtk

[Chris Vandiver]

While not common, or cheap, I have found the workmanship and steel to be superb with Barr chisels- handmade here in the USA barrtools.com
Peter

I heartily agree! Very good chisels indeed.

[David Paulsen]

+1 on what Roy Lindberry writes. No need, in my opinion, to get a mortise chisel. In my own experimenting in european oak (hard) I tried with the same size vintage mortise chisel and my regular beveled bench chisel... And I really preferred to use the bench chisel. I felt I had more control. And with the right technique, you don't have to blast and smash your way through. So I have no interest in mortise chisels anymore... They are pretty though.

My two cents

[Jim Foster]

The Narex chisels are surprisingly good for the price, and they will stay sharp for a more than reasonable time in use. When I needed to chop my first mortise, I opted for the Narex and was not disappointed. I usually spend "high" so I only spend once, but I found the Narex to be more than good enough to chop mortises for a long long time. They are not so pleasing on the eye like many of my tools, but seem to do a very good job for an obscenely low price.

[John Walkowiak]

Antique tool dealer Jim Bode always has mortise chisels of all kinds for sale. Most are under $40. Take a look at his website, if you don't see what you are looking for, just give him a call. He has a lot of tools that are not listed yet. http://www.jimbodetools.com/cart.php?m=search_results&search=pig+sticker&sort=2&asc=asc&viewAll=1

[Matthew Hills]

Tony,


Paul Sellers has a nice demonstration to show the procedure with both a pigsticker and a bevel-edged chisel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA


And some other mortising videos of his:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPBkO2chZxk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYpxhYHMNmI


I do like the AI pigsticker, but other chisels can work fine.
I don't especially like the drill&pare approach (I find the chisel work to be pretty fiddly unless I use some sort of guide to avoid twisting )


In the comparison video, Paul had made a quick evaluation of the smoothness of the sidewalls. For me, this depends on how well I placed the chisel blade before each chop, and less on the chisel type. This is a bit awkward during chopping operations (note the grip with left hand at the handle, rather than guiding the edge). Paul has cut many more of these than I...


Matt

[Tony Wilkins]

Jim, I'm now at Fort Riley, Kansas (Near Manhattan).

I guess I should mention that my bench chisel assortment isn't that full either - I have a 6mm Massahige oire-nomi and 1/2" Blue Spruce bench chisel. The 6mm I know is very close to 1/4". When I got the Massahige I was really sure that Japanese tools would be the way for me to go but the hoop wasn't comfortable to my nerve damaged hand.

ETA: now that I think about it, the hoop was part of the reason I didn't go with Barr the first time I went through picking chisels.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

May I make two suggestions about using using chisels?

The first is that a Japanese chisel may work best for you if you are findin it difficult to grip but can hold and swing a hammer. A Japanese chisel is designed to be held upright and then tapped with a gennou. This method delivers a great deal of control, and importantly it does not require as much hand strength as pushing.

The second point is that a Japanese chisel handle can be quite comfortable to push with the palm as long as it has been set up correctly. This means that the end of the handle has been mushroomed over the steel ring. This will cushion the steel edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Hi Tony

May I make two suggestions about using using chisels?

The first is that a Japanese chisel may work best for you if you are findin it difficult to grip but can hold and swing a hammer. A Japanese chisel is designed to be held upright and then tapped with a gennou. This method delivers a great deal of control, and importantly it does not require as much hand strength as pushing.

The second point is that a Japanese chisel handle can be quite comfortable to push with the palm as long as it has been set up correctly. This means that the end of the handle has been mushroomed over the steel ring. This will cushion the steel edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek. I did have some trouble setting up the hoop. I guess I could try again.

[Tony Wilkins]

Found it and yeah, I had done a very poor job in getting it ready. I was sick at the time and doing a little better now so maybe I can do it right. Just went over to Wilbur Pan's blog and refreshed my memory on how to do it right. I'm thinking about posting a picture and seeing if I should go all the way back to taking the hoop off. The other option would be to hammer it down a little more and soaking it to get a good mushroom over on the top.

[Chris Vandiver]

Jim, I'm now at Fort Riley, Kansas (Near Manhattan).

I guess I should mention that my bench chisel assortment isn't that full either - I have a 6mm Massahige oire-nomi and 1/2" Blue Spruce bench chisel. The 6mm I know is very close to 1/4". When I got the Massahige I was really sure that Japanese tools would be the way for me to go but the hoop wasn't comfortable to my nerve damaged hand.

ETA: now that I think about it, the hoop was part of the reason I didn't go with Barr the first time I went through picking chisels.

Tony, The way the handle of a Barr chisel is shaped makes the hoop kind of unnoticeable while paring. They are very good all around chisels(this coming from a longtime Japanese chisel devotee).

[Hilton Ralphs]

Paul Sellers has a nice demonstration to show the procedure with both a pigsticker and a bevel-edged chisel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA


Thanks for the link Matt. Whilst he was using the bevel edged chisel, I noted to myself that it seemed both easier and more accurate than with the pig sticker. Afterwards he concluded that chopping with the bevel chisel was about a minute faster and that the sides were cleaner.

Just goes to show.

[Derek Cohen]

Paul Sellers makes it look very easy. It is .. after 30 years of practice :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

Derek, before you go to bed, would you submit a Veritas PM bench chisel to the rigours of mortising or rather use a cheapie (but still good) Narex mortising chisel?

[Chris Vandiver]

Paul Sellers makes it look very easy. It is .. after 30 years of practice :)

Regards from Perth

Derek


Mortising with the blade registered against the side of plexiglass makes it a wee bit easier, as well.

[Chris Hachet]

+1 on what Roy Lindberry writes. No need, in my opinion, to get a mortise chisel. In my own experimenting in european oak (hard) I tried with the same size vintage mortise chisel and my regular beveled bench chisel... And I really preferred to use the bench chisel. I felt I had more control. And with the right technique, you don't have to blast and smash your way through. So I have no interest in mortise chisels anymore... They are pretty though.

My two centsThis would be my experience also....Although I wouldn't mind having a couple of nice mortising chisels in the chisel rack....

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, before you go to bed, would you submit a Veritas PM bench chisel to the rigours of mortising or rather use a cheapie (but still good) Narex mortising chisel?

:D

Sure, anything else?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Took the time today to re-setup my 6mm Massahige. Followed Wilbur's directions from giant Cypress and it came out very nice. Still not sure it's comfortable for me though. Worst part for me is the shock up my arm hitting it with the gennou. Is it possible I'm doing something wrong?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

A steel gennou offers the best "feedback". However this is also noisy, and when this is too loud fr the family I use a small rubber-headed Thor hammer. The rubber is hard and it still works well. Less noise and less vibration.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Here's what I ended up with after I redid the hoop and mushroomed the end...

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd316/cadfael_tex/DSCF1337_zpsd1ff674f.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/cadfael_tex/media/DSCF1337_zpsd1ff674f.jpg.html)

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd316/cadfael_tex/DSCF1338_zps2bdc1cc4.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/cadfael_tex/media/DSCF1338_zps2bdc1cc4.jpg.html)

[David Weaver]

That looks good. It will only get you into trouble if the hoop is loose (trouble meaning the chance that it slides around and pinches skin). I haven't seen wilburs tutorial, so I don't know if it includes heating the hoop or not, but I always heat the hoop so that it cools and contracts tightly on the chisel and doesn't move around.

I only say that because it looks like it's applied a little bit diagonally in that last picture.

[Tony Wilkins]

Thanks David, I'll check it. Is the heating something I could do now?

[Stew Hagerty]

I have the Narex (Imperial) Mortise Chisels and have found them quite good. They function every bit as well as my needs require. I might also add that I use Narex as my standard bench chisels as well. I can pound, beat, and pry all I want without a single care in the world. That said, I do have my "good set" (Veritas - I got them long before the PM's came out) that I use for finer work and for paring.

While at Handworks in Amana, I got the opportunity to test drive or, more accurately, test pound the English style "Pig Stickers" by Ray Iles at the T4WW booth. I really liked the way the fit my hand, and the balance was better than the Narex. Plus, with their D2 steel I'm pretty sure they would hold an edge much longer than do my Narex.

Personally, I don't chop enough mortises right now to justify the cost of upgrading. But, if I ever do find myself doing more chopping, or with more cash on hand, I think the T4WW/Ray Iles chisels are the ones I would choose.

[Wilbur Pan]

That looks good. It will only get you into trouble if the hoop is loose (trouble meaning the chance that it slides around and pinches skin). I haven't seen wilburs tutorial, so I don't know if it includes heating the hoop or not, but I always heat the hoop so that it cools and contracts tightly on the chisel and doesn't move around.

I only say that because it looks like it's applied a little bit diagonally in that last picture.

For future reference: http://giantcypress.net/tagged/Japanese%20chisel%20setup/chrono

I don't heat up the hoop. If the hoop works loose over time, it's probably because the wood in the handle has shrunk over time, which will happen whether you heat the hoop or not. I think that a vigorous hammering of the end of the handle to compress the fibers before setting the hoop is at least as good a method of locking the hoop in place.

If the hoop gets loose over time, you can pare off the mushroom, pop the hoop off, and seat the hoop down a bit further on the handle, and re-mushroom the end of the handle. You'll lose a bit of length, but it's going to be on the order of less than 1/4", more likely about 1/8".

Tony, your mushrooming job looks pretty good to me overall. There's a small gap between the mushroom and the hoop, but if you hammer the chisel enough, that should go away over time. As long as the hoop isn't loose, it's all good.

[David Weaver]

The first set of chisels I did (ebony handled chisels that I got from somewhere...ebay maybe), I didn't heat the hoops. Since then, I much prefer it, it makes the hoop very tight without having to be fiddly about cutting the wood. To each their own.

It would've been very helpful to have done it on those ebony handled chisels since they were already acclimated to a climate more dry than my shop and the fit would've stayed super tight. There are probably a couple of loose ones in that batch by now (I gave them to a friend, they were some kind of weird mix of expensive handles attached to mediocre export-only chisels deeply stamped "made in japan" right on the tops).

Stan covington has an expert instructional of top shelf preparation of chisels that it would be nice to see published. It would be troll bait, though, for all of the japanophobes, which is too bad. It is far better than any fitting advice I have ever seen anywhere.

Wilbur, I saw your question on another forum that I can't post on about getting the handles off. I don't know if it ever got answered, but the easy answer is just to take the chisels and hit the handles on a board or bench top as if you're using the chisels to do a rimshot with a drumstick. Or any drumming, I guess, as long as the wood isn't gobs harder than the handle wood. They'll work loose pretty quickly.

[Chris Vandiver]

The first set of chisels I did (ebony handled chisels that I got from somewhere...ebay maybe), I didn't heat the hoops. Since then, I much prefer it, it makes the hoop very tight without having to be fiddly about cutting the wood. To each their own.

It would've been very helpful to have done it on those ebony handled chisels since they were already acclimated to a climate more dry than my shop and the fit would've stayed super tight. There are probably a couple of loose ones in that batch by now (I gave them to a friend, they were some kind of weird mix of expensive handles attached to mediocre export-only chisels deeply stamped "made in japan" right on the tops).

Stan covington has an expert instructional of top shelf preparation of chisels that it would be nice to see published. It would be troll bait, though, for all of the japanophobes, which is too bad. It is far better than any fitting advice I have ever seen anywhere.

Wilbur, I saw your question on another forum that I can't post on about getting the handles off. I don't know if it ever got answered, but the easy answer is just to take the chisels and hit the handles on a board or bench top as if you're using the chisels to do a rimshot. They'll work loose pretty quickly.

The way I was taught to fit the hoops on a Japanese chisel is to heat the hoop(400 deg. oven)and also to remove the handle from the chisel and warm it in a toaster oven(or over a wood stove, etc.)to remove any ambient moisture. Then the handle end is compressed(with a hammer)and the hoop fitted and driven down onto the handle. After the hoop has cooled the handle end is mushroomed over. I don't soak the handles in any liquid(water or oil). This defeats the purpose and ends up shrinking back over time. Plus, mushrooming the end of a soaked handle tears the wood fibers and leaves a fuzzy and weak surface. Not ideal. The goal is to have a tight fitting hoop that never comes loose. A loose fitting hoop is a pain in the arse.

By the way, a similar technique is used to fit a Japanese hammer head to a handle. Then there is no need for any wedges or mushrooming the end of the handle, to keep the head in place.

[David Weaver]

I should clarify what I said above, I much prefer "it" meaning I much prefer heating the hoops. The extra tightness specifically does avoid loosening of a handle due to slight changes in moisture.

I will admit that I have chiseled material away on some handles (little bits, of course) when the hoops are very tight.

There are so many decent chisels now with set hoops,though, that nobody has to worry about it if they don't want to, I guess.

I have to admit that when I get the oddball inexpensive chisel here or there, I don't mind the job the hoop setting machines do.

[Wilbur Pan]

The first set of chisels I did (ebony handled chisels that I got from somewhere...ebay maybe), I didn't heat the hoops. Since then, I much prefer it, it makes the hoop very tight without having to be fiddly about cutting the wood. To each their own.

It would've been very helpful to have done it on those ebony handled chisels since they were already acclimated to a climate more dry than my shop and the fit would've stayed super tight. There are probably a couple of loose ones in that batch by now (I gave them to a friend, they were some kind of weird mix of expensive handles attached to mediocre export-only chisels deeply stamped "made in japan" right on the tops).

Stan covington has an expert instructional of top shelf preparation of chisels that it would be nice to see published. It would be troll bait, though, for all of the japanophobes, which is too bad. It is far better than any fitting advice I have ever seen anywhere.

Wilbur, I saw your question on another forum that I can't post on about getting the handles off. I don't know if it ever got answered, but the easy answer is just to take the chisels and hit the handles on a board or bench top as if you're using the chisels to do a rimshot with a drumstick. Or any drumming, I guess, as long as the wood isn't gobs harder than the handle wood. They'll work loose pretty quickly.

Thanks for the tip on removing a chisel handle. That's the technique that I know. I was wondering if there were other ways of doing so, much like there seem to be different ways of setting Japanese chisel hoops.

My chisels are close to 5 years old at this point and the hoops are still tight, without signs of working loose. It may be that the oak handles that I have are easier to deal with than ebony handles. Chris' experience aside, I haven't seen the issues that he mentions of problems with the soaking part. As I see it, the soaking mainly accelerates the swelling of the handle back to its more normal state after the hammering.

But as long as the ring stays tight, that's the main thing. And as I mentioned before, should it come loose, it's pretty trivial to redo the process. Maybe if I get another new chisel, I'll try the heating thing. But it's going to be a while before I need a new Japanese chisel.