Manufacturers and the forums

[Reed Gray]

I was chatting with Brad Packard, of Packard Woodworks yesterday asking about the new CBN wheel from Woodcut, and a few other things. I know that all the manufacturers scan the forums, but many don't comment. The main reason is they don't feel it is appropriate for them to do so because of their professional interests. Probably part of that is because of natural bias towards their products. Personally, as long as they follow the general rules of the forums, I welcome their comments, mostly because they can explain things that they know more about than I ever will.

How do the rest of you feel?

robo hippy

[Doug Herzberg]

I'd welcome them too, as long as they disclose their relationship with the manufacturer. Problem would be if they had an honest criticism of the product and felt they couldn't speak their mind without losing their jobs. Most companies want that kind of talk handled by official spokespersons. I have received PMs from sales people about particular products after posting a question.

[Roger Chandler]

I do not mind if a vendor answers some questions related to their product or clears up some misconception or misinformation that may be stated by someone......sometimes because the poster is uninformed or whatever. That being said, it is my feeling that if they want to advertise their product by means of the forums, then they should purchase an add and everyone should see it for what it is.

Because turners do frequent the forums to get information on products at times [they want to see if others have used it and what kind of experience was had by those users] we all have to be careful that our own advocacy for a particular product we use does not turn into a means of commercial promotion for some manufacturer or vendor.

I am fine with someone stating their experience with a product............for example, I was one of the first to get one of the 18/47 Grizzly lathes....I did a review on AAW and other forums and a lot of discussion was generated..........never one time was I approached by Grizzly or anyone else for that matter to "promote" that lathe. I only gave my honest and full experience to those who inquired. I also got numerous phone calls from around the country about it.........again only offered my opinion and experience with it.

I had a couple of guys accuse me of being on Grizzly's payroll! Never, ever, have I even had a conversation with them related to promoting anything .....although I do believe they are aware of my comments.

Same way with my CBN wheel from D-Way......only my personal experience with it...........I believe that is perfectly fine!

[Brian Kent]

I also expect and appreciate when people representing manufacturers are respectful of other manufacturer's products.

[Thom Sturgill]

I tend to agree Reed.

I think, however, that manufacturers and marketing companies should take out 'sponsor' accounts and reply to questions about THEIR or OTHERS merchandise using that account. On the other hand, they could have personal accounts for general comments on turnings, etc. as long as they are not using those accounts to comment on products.

Like Roger, I've commented on products I've owned or used but have never been approached by a vendor either here or in my prior career in IT, though I do know turners who have approached vendors and made such arrangements.

[Keith Outten]

It is difficult for a company representative to make comments here that are not interpreted as promotion of their products or services. Our official policy here is that we only allow our advertisers to post and they are limited to the Deals And Discounts Forum. We make every effort to keep our woodworking forums a non-commercial space for you to enjoy without in your face advertising. Advertising is limited to our sponsors, those who offer FreeStuff Prizes and our Friends of the Creek.

We openly invite all woodworkers to join our Community BUT we ask that they leave their corporate association at the door. The benefits to this policy far outweigh the risk of having our Community disrupted by those whose only interest is promotion. We must attract advertisers if we are to continue to keep all of our primary woodworking forums open with free access so we hope that the majority of you will support our advertisers when you have the opportunity.
.

[Brian Finney]

Perhaps what is needed is a new descriptor of Technical Expert ie Contributor, Member and Technical Expert. Technical experts would provide FACT ONLY. We have enough opinions to go around already :)

[Curt Fuller]

I think you get better info and feedback from the regular old everyday members here. If they like something they're pretty quick to say something about it. If they don't they're usually just as quick. But you still have to weigh what you read, consider the source, and weed out the extremes. There's plenty of other places to find manufacturer's opinions and information.

[Mike Cruz]

I have to respectfully disagree with Keith on this. When I had posted about the Hurricane HTC chucks, there were a LOT of questions. Ones that I didn't know the answer to. Steve chimed in (he's been a member for a while, so it wasn't that he joined to talk about chucks) and answered questions.

I know that a post of his got edited because I got a notification of his post in a that thread. But I couldn't find it in the thread. I got to read what he had written in his post. What he wrote could have been useful to people. He was simply answering questions that were being asked and/or telling people that they can visit his site/watch his you tube video to get the answers. I found his participation in the thread very useful and helpful. I haven't seen him post since...

I also found it very helpful when Shiraz would post on some Grizzly threads.

It isn't as if these guys were starting threads about their stuff, or plugging how incredibly awesome their tools are. Rather giving input and answering questions that people are asking. Sure, they could call Shiraz and Steve directly. But they aren't. They are asking on a public forum. So, I believe that not letting them hinders the flow of the threads, and makes this forum less informative, factual, and useful. If nothing else, having the manufacturers input to direct questions (THEIR choice to do so, by all means not mandatory) makes this site more legit...it is therefore not all conjecture, accusations, opinions, and guessing.

Just my two cents on the subject.

[Roger Chandler]

I too appreciated the info that Steve provided on the HTC chucks.........his answers made me consider purchasing one........which I eventually did. Had he not answered questions and factually so, I for one would have missed out on getting a quality chuck at a very good price. What he did in my opinion was very helpful, and in my mind did not violate any rules [at least that I am aware of] and I think there is a difference from pure promotion and the service provided by giving info on the questions raised by the members of the SMC community!

I think Keith and other mods could allow some things, but if it crosses the line, then they could step in!

[Keith Outten]

Mike,

There is merit to your point of view however unauthorized advertising is either on or off. It is impossible to control when you allow advertising under some circumstances and not others. There are 73,840 registered Members here as of this morning and it is difficult enough to Moderate our Forums now, I doubt that you would even know this place if we allowed anyone to advertise at will.

Commercial exposure here is extremely valuable because we are a very high traffic site. Our Staff is constantly editing posts and removing threads that are nothing more than unauthorized advertising. To ask them to provide even more coverage would make the job impossible if we had to try to determine when a vendor was providing valuable information versus plugging their products.

Our advertisers probably would not appreciate seeing their competitors post for free when they pay for the privilege. We cannot possibly pay the bills here without advertising support, there are so few Contributors we would have to close off all free access if our advertising support decreased. We recently started offering Manufacturers Forums again to those companies who have annual advertising accounts so there is a way for commercial organizations to be active here but it isn't free. Of course I can't walk into their showrooms and just take the tools I want for free either.

This week Aaron will be taking The Creek offline to upgrade our server. I spent several thousand dollars on this upgrade and our monthly bandwidth bill is about to increase substantially as we increase the size of our pipe. The six dollar per year donations won't even cover these costs, much less the labor costs and other business expenses after PayPal, the State and the Federal Governments get their piece of the pie.
.

[Robert Henrickson]

I would think that as long as manufacturers clearly identified themselves as such, and were responding to questions (or complaints), that it would be helpful. If information is dispassionately provided by the maker, surely that is useful rather than forcing the discussion to be secondhand reports of what a maker has told a SMC member.

Where answers might go over the line into advocacy (advertising) would ultimately be a judgement call. Moderators can deal with such problems should they arise.

Along this line -- If manufacturers are to be restrained, what about the passionate advocates of specific tool lines, especially when that person clearly has a close personal relationship (saying so explicitly) with a manufacturer? That would seem more problematic than having a manufacturer simply answering questions or complaints. This problem does NOT apply to the discussions of Hurricane chucks, which instead has illustrated the usefulness of having firsthand responses.

[Jerry Marcantel]

Next month, 7 -13 I'm going to post on a new tool that I'd like to think I'm the inventer of. It will have pictures, and a good description of it's advantages to other methods of completing turnings. I am hoping it will make some of other other tools obsolete that do the same thing, while trying not to be bashing those tools. I'm not going to offer sales, but if some are interested, of course, I'll do everything to sell some.
I'm wondering how that will go over with you Keith, as you once pulled one of my posts for just asking if someone lived in a certain area??............. Jerry (in Tucson)

[Keith Outten]

Jerry,

You cannot announce new products or promote sales here. Should we allow one person do do so would require us to allow everyone the same privileges. If you have a financial interest in any tool, product or service you are not allowed to participate in any discussion concerning your interests. This is stated in our Terms of Service.

E. Commercial Advertising
1. Direct Commercial Affiliation
SawmillCreek maintains an active advertising and marketing program. As such, we seek to provide a non-competitive atmosphere for our advertisers by disallowing commercial posts from our members. Posts made by Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.

All of the rules here are based on what is best for the majority. They are not my rules, this is what has been dictated to me from the Members of this Community over the last ten years. There are a few that disagree with various policies here but the majority fully support our Terms of Service and they are the first to report violations of the rules.

I don't recall removing a post just because someone mentioned a certain area, there must have been other details involved in the situation. For the record I am not as strict as the Members of this Community are, for instance I am not opposed to allowing commercial posts in our Classifieds Forum but the Members here disagree. I would prefer we didn't have an Off-Topic Forum but the Members here feel differently so I yield to a majority preference. Matters concerning our financial obligations are mine to decide because I am responsible for paying the bills and I have to sign the contracts. The day to day regulations here are based entirely on the will of this Community and i should remind everyone that our mission is to provide a space where woodworkers can gather together and share their experience and love of the craft. It is not a primary goal of this Community to interface with commercial interests directly.

[Keith Outten]

Along this line -- If manufacturers are to be restrained, what about the passionate advocates of specific tool lines, especially when that person clearly has a close personal relationship (saying so explicitly) with a manufacturer? That would seem more problematic than having a manufacturer simply answering questions or complaints. This problem does NOT apply to the discussions of Hurricane chucks, which instead has illustrated the usefulness of having firsthand responses.

Robert,

You hit the nail right on the head. Over 90% of the problems we have concerning unauthorized advertising is from Members of this Community who have some kind of personal relationship or professional agreement with a company whose goal is to use our resources for their commercial gain. Sometimes these are passionate advocates as you call them or what I call forum trolls. I consider this activity in the same class as theft and in the rare cases that I can prove it beyond a doubt I will take extraordinary measures against the company involved.

I should clarify that I do not include those who are very happy customers or those who are passionate about a tool they purchased and love to use. I have my own favorite machines and I enjoy hearing from those who feel the same about the tools they own and enjoy.
.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Robo, I think participation can help. A few years back, on another forum we are both on, the owner of Grizzly was following a thread on their (then) newest lathe. Which we were roasting for a number of issues. He asked for some clarification. He (obviously) took our input to heart as some of the issues got fixed in the next edition of that lathe.

[David DeCristoforo]

I would like to "chime in" on this. First off I would like to relate a couple of fairly recent experiences.

It has to do with a well known turning tool maker who approached me. He told me that he was impressed with my work and wanted to send me some tools to try. Since I spent many years writing about woodworking and tools, I have had a lot of experience with this. But this particular vendor was so blatant in first lavishing praise on me and then insisting that I promote his tools and "become his voice" on the forums that I immediately bailed on him. I have seen posts made under other names that I knew the vendor had written because his writing style was instantly recognizable. And since the he had actually sent me "copy" that he wanted me to post as my own, I knew exactly what was going on. This is a common tactic.

The second thing was when Rick Markham posted a link to the new "Dynamotor" in my "monster lathe" thread. I contacted the manufacturer to inquire about these motors and they ended up offering to send me one to test on the lathe. Ultimately it did not work out because of the low starting torque of the two pole design and I was not able to recommend the motor for use on a lathe. But at no time did the manufacturer attempt to influence my opinion, use me as a "mouthpiece" or stick their own oar in the water.

It should be understood that makers and/or sellers of tools have a vested interest in promoting them. Some are more moderate in their approach than others and will answer questions about their products with a minimum of "sell". But they are still selling and competing. There is no way that you will ever get an objective opinion about a product from the maker or seller of that product. The makers and sellers know this. So many of them will use surreptitious methods. Even those who do not use surreptitious methods are acting in their own self interests. When did you ever hear a seller say "No, you don't want to buy my product. It's not any good."???

So when Keith decided to ban this type of participation, I believe he made the right choice. If a seller or maker wants to promote their stuff, let them pay for ads. Allowing them to directly answer questions about their products might be a not bad idea but it opens the door to all manner of abuse, some subtile, some not so. But like I said, there is no reason for a seller or maker to participate on this level except to promote their products. Let's not kid ourselves about this. If you want real objective input about a particular product, there is no better source than those who have already bought that product and have used it under "real world" conditions. And even there you have to be sure that the review is truly from an objective source and is totally uncompensated. Otherwise, the reviewer is going to be indebted to the manufacturer and that is going to influence the evaluation.

[Mike Cruz]

David, I do understand your point(s). And the ARE good ones, with "proof" to back it up. In the case of Steve and the HTC chucks, there were a number of questions regarding whether inserts were available in certain sizes, could be made, had X feature, would fit other jaws, if it was simply a knock off of a specific name brand chuck, etc. Simply allowing Steve to answer the questions would not be "advertising". Apparently, people didn't want to go to his site, watch his video, or call them himself...they wanted to get their info from the Creek. So, allowing him (as a member), to answer here is actually a benefit to the Creek. When someone searches Google about HTC chucks and gets directed to the Creek because of a thread that has actual answers FROM a member that happens to be the seller, this Site becomes a place of FACTUAL information, not just a place where questions are asked with a bunch of "I don't know" answers...which is not what the Google searcher was looking for. When that person finds his answer here, he says, "Hmmm, what an informative site. I need to go there more often..." And so a new member is born. That is, in effect, how I got here. And I'm sure most other members. We found an answer here, not just more questions and conjecture. I don't tend to become a member on Sites that don't get results. And I would imagine that is a common theme with other question seekers.

That said, again, I do understand what you are saying. I just don't agree that ANY input from a manufacturer is "advertising". Sorry if you didn't use those exact words...

[Dennis Nagle]

I'd never cut myself off from a knowledge base. Bring them on.

[David DeCristoforo]

All I'm saying is that the cards should be on the table. Customer support should be provided by the manufacturer or the vendor and it is not really fair for them to use a forum like SMC for that purpose. If, as a customer, a member wants to praise the manufacturer or vendor, that is the prerogative of the individual member. Likewise if the member has less than positive comments. The idea that any input from a manufacturer is advertising could be argued either way. But it is public exposure of a kind that the manufacturer would otherwise have to pay for. Not fair that SMC should provide this for free. It's not like SMC is a philanthropic entity or one that is pulling down the big bucks.

I remember when I first joined SMC and I replied to a post asking for a general opinion of a certain brand of machinery. I had owned a few pieces of equipment from that manufacturer so I responded, saying that it was, by far, the worst equipment I had ever owned and that the customer support was also the worst I had ever received. Boy did I step in it! Turns out that this particular manufacturer was a big supporter of the forum and that the owner of the company was an active participant. Needless to say, I lived to regret my post! But that's the advertising game. Most information channels are supported by advertising dollars and the one thing you never do is make your advertisers unhappy!

I have to agree with Dennis in that it is counterproductive to cut one's self off from needed information. But why can't these guys provide this information on their own web sites? Or reply to questions directly via PM? The answer is that they can but they get more exposure if it is done publicly. If someone asks for input from users of a particular product and others respond, that's one thing. But having the manufacturer chime in changes the paradigm. As I said before, there is no way for a manufacturer or vendor to participate without acting in their own self interests.

[Mike Cruz]

Most information channels are supported by advertising dollars and the one thing you never do is make your advertisers unhappy!

Therein lies the rub... If a manufacturer supports the Creek with advertising cash, not only can they reply to questions in threads, but we, as members, get bridled on what we can and cannot say regarding said advertiser for fear of losing advertising funds. I fully understand the cost of running a business and running a site. I know this isn't cheap by any means. I understand the need for advertising and the desire to keep a good thing going. I understand that this entire subject is a sensitive one (for all three parties...Keith, advertisers, and members), and plays with a slippery slope.

You have a good point about manufacturers being able to use the PM service to direct answers to specific questions. And I agree that could/should be used more. But then would it be okay for said manufacturer to at least post "PM sent, John." when John asked a question so that other members know that questions do get answered? Or would that still be seen as getting free advertising?

I know this isn't a cut and dry subject. Or at least it isn't "simple".

[David DeCristoforo]

How it would work in a "perfect world":

Someone posts a complaint about a piece of equipment. The manufacturer is watching the forums and sees the post. He PMs the poster and they work to resolve the issue. The manufacturer leaves it to the customer/member to share his experience with the other members. There is no pressure put on the customer/member to do so. In most cases, the now satisfied customer will be back here with a "Wow, those guys really took care of me..." This is worth a fortune to the manufacturer because you cannot buy this kind of advertising. And if the member chooses not to post, the manufacturer will still have a happy customer and he will benefit from this as well as the knowledge that he acted in good faith. The company that builds a reputation in this way will become known for treating their customers right. Do you know Joe Gerrard's "Law of Two Fifty"? In case you don't Joe is a sales guru and his "Law of Two Fifty" is that the average person knows two hundred and fifty other people with similar interests and while those people may never hear about it if the customer is satisfied, they will, to the last one, hear about it if the customer is unhappy. Somewhere in here is a little thing called "ethics", something that we humans seem to be loosing touch with.

[Jerry Marcantel]

Jerry,

You cannot announce new products or promote sales here. Should we allow one person do do so would require us to allow everyone the same privileges. If you have a financial interest in any tool, product or service you are not allowed to participate in any discussion concerning your interests. This is stated in our Terms of Service.

E. Commercial Advertising
1. Direct Commercial Affiliation
SawmillCreek maintains an active advertising and marketing program. As such, we seek to provide a non-competitive atmosphere for our advertisers by disallowing commercial posts from our members. Posts made by Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.

All of the rules here are based on what is best for the majority. They are not my rules, this is what has been dictated to me from the Members of this Community over the last ten years. There are a few that disagree with various policies here but the majority fully support our Terms of Service and they are the first to report violations of the rules.

I don't recall removing a post just because someone mentioned a certain area, there must have been other details involved in the situation. For the record I am not as strict as the Members of this Community are, for instance I am not opposed to allowing commercial posts in our Classifieds Forum but the Members here disagree. I would prefer we didn't have an Off-Topic Forum but the Members here feel differently so I yield to a majority preference. Matters concerning our financial obligations are mine to decide because I am responsible for paying the bills and I have to sign the contracts. The day to day regulations here are based entirely on the will of this Community and i should remind everyone that our mission is to provide a space where woodworkers can gather together and share their experience and love of the craft. It is not a primary goal of this Community to interface with commercial interests directly.

So Keith, what I'm reading into your answer to me is that if I come up with a totally new tool that will prevent a lot of grief, I can't even show it??? So far, I've designed a Chuck Plate, and posted directions on how to make it. I didn't say I had any for sale until someone contacted me through private mail. I then upgraded the Chuck Plate to aluminum, and sold a bunch of those through PM. I don't think I said they were for sale. All I was doing was letting people know there is an easier way to do things, and from the reactions I've gotten, it probably is a better way.

I've been working on another tool for tenon removal that will make all the other hold downs seem like ancient tools, and I can't show it????? Innovation is not approved of here?? Is that what you're telling me?

As far as you not recalling removing any posts, it's because you might remove a lot, but I remember because it's the only one I've ever had removed. It concerned me asking if there were any woodturners in the Branson, Missouri area as I had a friend who wanted to know if his idea could be done. If it could, he would have purchased a lathe and possibly joined this club, but you removed my post stating I was wanting something, like it was an advertisement. I even wrote you through a pm, and you ignored that...... That's the day I decided I would not become a contributor............. Jerry (in Tucson)

[John Altberg]

Jerry,

If you want to advertise on the internet, pay to host your OWN website and have at it!

[Jerry Marcantel]

Jerry,

If you want to advertise on the internet, pay to host your OWN website and have at it!

John, I didn't join this site to sell tools. It was to learn. I haven't yet advertised here. I'm proud of my abilities to be able to solve a problem by making something that will allow me to complete a project from start to finish without the fear of a mishap on the lathe. After perfecting my innovations, all I want to do is share it with others so they might be able to remove some of the fear factor encounterd by every turner on this site. If that's bad, it's not good policy. I thought showcasing safety was the proper and humane thing to do................ Jerry

[Reed Gray]

Well, this has been pretty interesting. Seems to me like there are a lot of grey areas.

One is about manufacturers being banned from commenting on their areas of expertise/interests. Does this mean that Vince can't comment about abrasives and sanding? Can Dave Schweitzer not make comments about CBN wheels? Are both Doug and Dave banned from making comments about tool steel? How about the Doctor making comments about the chemistry of walnut oil finishes? Am I banned from making comments about coring systems since I have a DVD out?

I think we all want discussion about products. This is a great service to both the customers, and to the manufacturers. Mostly because we both need feedback, and opinions. Surely, some are more lacking in scruples than others, and will go to great lengths to get around rules (pathetic/funny story DD). I can appreciate how Keith can find himself in a difficult place as an administrator here. Not a position I would want to place myself into. And, no, I don't have all the answers.

I have tried, several times to explain things because a manufacturer didn't feel it was proper for them to chime in with their expertise, and am worried that I won't explain it correctly, which is why I feel it is important to get some of their direct feedback.

I guess there is also, for those of us who sell a few things to support our habits, and not to make a living off of, how do we introduce our products at a cost we can afford, and not break the rules? And, then for Keith, you would face the problem of where do you draw the lines of what is advertising, and what is information?

Yikes, this makes my head hurt!!!!

robo hippy

[Mike Cruz]

I would call this a "Gray" area. Thanks for bringing that (and the rest of your post) up, Reed. I suppose that is where I am concerned as well. Heck, what about Jeff Nicol. He's made how many steady rests and tool rests for Creekers and others. Yet he's allowed (and I believe rightfully so!) to post if someone had questions about a or his steady rest. Why? Because he has proven himself to be a trustworthy and honest member of this community. So, what is different about Jeff piping up in a thread about his (or another) steady rest and Steve piping up about a thread about his chuck? As long as neither started the thread (or HAD someone start the thread), I simply don't see it as a problem. I see how Keith might, but as Reed said, I'm not asking to be in his shoes, either.

BUT consistency is the point. I'm not trying, by any means, to keep Jeff from being able to post in a thread about his or other steady rests, but if he is allowed, then others must be, too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Reed,

It's the devil in the details.

.....and it's the grey areas that make moderating these things difficult too.

and it's also the attitude that people display when they get edited that make things difficult too!

There are a few manufacturers that have displayed the ability to focus their comments on providing technical detail, recommendations, adjustment procedures and generic comments without advertising their products. These same people typically gracefully accept the editing or deletions of those posts that the staff here deem contained advertising. What sets these few person apart is they can take the actions and or criticisms as a result of perceived advertising in a friendly manner. In other words, they don't try get into a heated debate, they just let it go. They remain rational.

There are others who are so emotionally involved, so bigoted with respect to their product or services that they become irrational and attack the administrators or moderators or anyone else with a differing opinion and have lost their posting privileges.

It's one thing to provide technical specifications or technical procedures. It becomes a totally different situation when the same person begins to make comparisons between their product or chosen design and that of another manufacturer. Now it becomes a slippery slope.

A lot of new members may not have been around when SMC was close to being shutdown or sold to a large company. Through the efforts of one of the Moderators, the membership contribution method of financing was developed to keep the place alive. Later even that didn't provide enough income to pay the bills and Keith instituted the paid advertising addition.

I have never met Keith and Jackie Outten face-to-face. I hope to change that in the next couple weeks while I am in the Norfolk area visiting family. I am not privy to, don't want to be privy to nor have any reason to know the financial numbers of SMC BUT...I would bet that paid advertising pays more bills than membership contributions. Why would any company pay for advertisement on SMC if they were given free unfettered access to SMC and could advertise gratis?

There are also other issues that play dramatically in these situations that most members may not realize. In at least one case, manufacturers have filed lawsuits against another as a result of threads here at SMC. Keith has had to provide copies of those threads for that lawsuit.

It's unreasonable to suggest that manufacturers be given unrestricted access to SMC. It would also become a nightmare to moderate and try to control that type of access.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

To the best of my knowledge, Jeff has never made his steady rests a commercial enterprise or publicly advertised them for sale. I think he has just made one here or one there for fellow Creekers. Correct me if I am wrong.

I don't see this any different than me stating that I sold some bottle stoppers, pens or a bowl at flea market.


Consistency is a matter of personal opinion and perception.

[Mike Cruz]

I don't think Jerry was looking to make his "tool/invention" a commercial enterprise, either. Just wanted to post it, and if anyone wanted one, he'd make them one. That is what it sounded like to me, but the idea seemed to get shot down before start up. That said, maybe it should have been brought up in a PM with Keith so that it could all get ironed out before anyone else knew about it. But, at least from what Jerry said, Keith didn't respond to Jerry's last PM, so I can understand why he may not have.

I think Jeff's made a "few" steadys and tool rests for Creekers. Let's say more than a "few". I know of 3 people within an hour's drive with them... But I don't want to put him in a hot spot. As a close friend, I don't want to drag him through this. Sorry that I brought him up.

[Keith Outten]

Jerry,

You can sponsor a banner advertisement here and then use our Deals and Discounts Forum to announce your products.
I've had a change of heart, this is not an option.

[Keith Outten]

Believe this or not, we are not hurting for new Members here. I delete almost 50% of the new registrations here every day for one reason or another. When it comes to growth we had an incredible year awhile back, our Membership grew by 250% in just twelve months. Now that was very bad because I didn't have the money to support that kind of growth when less than 2% of the new Members became Contributors. Its like having more mouths to feed at the table and no additional money to buy food.

Generally speaking I CAN NOT attract advertisers as fast as people join SawMill Creek.

[Keith Outten]

I even wrote you through a pm, and you ignored that...... That's the day I decided I would not become a contributor............. Jerry (in Tucson)

Jerry,

You are a Member here which means that you don't pay anything for the privilege of using my resources which is fine because I allow people do do just that.

However, you use my Forum to insult me publicly because I didn't answer a Private Message, possibly you can share with me the reason you feel that I owe you anything.
.

[Jerry Marcantel]

I don't think Jerry was looking to make his "tool/invention" a commercial enterprise, either. .


Mike, I hate to do this to you, but I AM going to make this a commercial interprise because it's going to be worth it, unlike my Chuck Plate which I posted instructions on building them as soon as I developed it.




But, at least from what Jerry said, Keith didn't respond to Jerry's last PM, so I can understand why he may not have..


Mike, I said that Keith didn't bother responding to my inquiry about why he removed a post I made about 2 years ago. Ken sent me a copy of that post, but there isn't a date so I'm sticking with 2 years ago. It was a poorly worded inquiry, but I'm told I should be a better at wording my stuff.


[QUOTE=Keith Outten]

Jerry,

You are a Member here which means that you don't pay anything for the privilege of using my resources which is fine because I allow people do do just that.

However, you use my Forum to insult me publicly because I didn't answer a Private Message, possibly you can share with me the reason you feel that I owe you anything.[QUOTE]



Keith, If you hadn't removed that post I would have become a very happy contributor a long time ago. If you don't want me here on you forum, please bannish me, but before you do that, I want my articles returned to me...... If you choose not to bannish, I might take you up on that offer for a banner as long as it doesn't break the bank.
.
I did not insult you on your forum. I merely told the truth............... Jerry (in Tucson).
.

[Jon Nuckles]

I appreciate and enjoy this resource, and I thank Keith and the moderators for providing it and protecting it. I am happy to make my small contribution to help keep it alive. While some may disagree with a decision here or there, the great majority surely recognize that we are lucky to have this forum. Let's not lose our perspective.

[Keith Outten]

Submitted Articles, Information and Data

Terms Of Service
B. Licensing
With respect to text or data entered into and stored by SawMill Creek, the submitting user retains ownership of such Public Content; with respect to publicly-available statistical content which is generated by the site to monitor and display content activity, such content is owned by SawMill Creek. In any such case, the submitting user grants SawMill Creek the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, all subject to the terms of any applicable license

[Tim Rinehart]

less than 2% of the new Members became Contributors.

That's a sad statistic given the breadth and depth of info on SMC, and the crazy next-to-nothing price to be a contributor.

[Keith Outten]

Tim,

It is sad.
If everyone here would pony up 50 cents:
1. We would be able to afford custom programing and the best Shop Tours Module you could ever imagine.
2. We would have a huge Internet Pipe and incredibly fast servers on both sides of the USA.
3. We would not be having this conversation because there wouldn't be any advertisers here.
4. I wouldn't have to spend 70% of my time marketing banner ads and I would be able to answer more Private Messages and email.

When someone else pays the bills we have to give up something :(
.

[Mike Cruz]

Well, there you have it! Make it mandatory for each person to give $1. 1/2 of the folks here would decline and go away. The other 1/2 would have all the perks you just mentioned. When the first 1/2 realize what they've been missing, they'll be back.

Could this site survive without Contributors? If not, sounds to me like those of us that are paying $6 (or more) are already "carrying" the freeloaders.

[Fred Perreault]

I have been a volunteer in my town for many causes, and have been an elected or appointed member of various committees, agencies and departments where there are ramifications for instances of self or professional gain. I think what is being discussed here is "conflict of interest". And in many cases even "the appearance of conflict of interest" is enough to make matters difficult for the conflicted party. No doubt the moderators jobs would be nigh impossible if they were required to make assessments of manufacturer or vendor posts and motives, even if the majority were unbiased, honest statements. The net has made it possible to get almost any information we seek, and the net has given us woodworking forums like The Creek. I would prefer to leave the Creek as free from commercial promotion as possible, save for any forums that are clearly identified as promotional leaning venues. There are plenty of other ways to get answers, and it seems that most of us succeed.

[Keith Outten]

Mike,

Our funding comes from Contributor donations, Advertisers and the sale of SawMill Creek hats/shirts/DVD's. All three sources are required to keep us moving ahead, if we lose any funds something has to give.

I am reminded frequently that Members who post here are Contributors as well and that is absolutely true.
.

[Keith Outten]

I have been a volunteer in my town for many causes, and have been an elected or appointed member of various committees, agencies and departments where there are ramifications for instances of self or professional gain. I think what is being discussed here is "conflict of interest". And in many cases even "the appearance of conflict of interest" is enough to make matters difficult for the conflicted party. No doubt the moderators jobs would be nigh impossible if they were required to make assessments of manufacturer or vendor posts and motives, even if the majority were unbiased, honest statements. The net has made it possible to get almost any information we seek, and the net has given us woodworking forums like The Creek. I would prefer to leave the Creek as free from commercial promotion as possible, save for any forums that are clearly identified as promotional leaning venues. There are plenty of other ways to get answers, and it seems that most of us succeed.

Fred,

I couldn't have said it better myself.
The rules and policies we have adopted through the years are the reason we have been so successful. Over 2 million posts and climbing in ten years and we average between ten to twenty million page views per month depending on the season. The Creek is not broke so we don't need to fix anything.