Another serious injury at the lathe

[Roger Chandler]

Steve Antonucci posted the following on the Wood Central forum about an accident at the lathe.......please be careful when turning!








WC'er Severely Injured
Posted By:

Date:
6/5/2013, 7:35 pm



As a member of NJ Woodturners, we received the following e-mail from Adrien Coblentz's wife today:
This is Mary Ellen, Adrien's wife. I just wanted to let the group know that Adrien was badly injured when a plate he was turning flew off of the lathe and hit him in the head. (at least this is what the police and I were able to reconstruct. We found a few pieces of the plate but not all of them) Fractured skull, eye orbit fracture. He had facial reconstructive surgery and a plate in the frontal skull bone as the bone was shattered) on Saturday and had been in a drug induced coma until Sunday. He improved tremendously yesterday, but doesn't remember anything about the accident, except the fact that the plate he was turning was beautiful wood!
He had his helmet on and it was broken as we found pieces in the shop.
Please reiterate to the group the importance of wearing their helmets!!!!
He will be in the hospital for awhile, but sure he will be in touch when he is able.
Kind Regards,
Mary Ellen
Adrien posts here from time to time, and he could certainly use your thoughts and well wishes. Not trying to politicize this, but apparently, he was wearing a faceshield when the accident happened. Stay out of the line of fire, people!
Steven

[ray hampton]

may I extend my best wishes to this turner and his family

[Russell Eaton]

I hope he makes a swift recovery. I recently bought and gave a face mask to a fellow turner. He was only using a pair if safety glasses. I try to always be mindful of the rotation.

[Roger Chandler]

We all need to remember that accidents happen in a split second............we may not be able to prevent every accident, but by doing our best to use the best practices we can in turning and using stable wood and wearing our safety equipment, hopefully we can diminish greatly the terrible consequences............

The turner in this accident had a "helment" on according to his wife..........Steven said he was not sure but it might have been one of those like used with chainsaws............hopefully more info will come out in time and we can all learn from it to better protect ourselves!

We should remember Adrian in our prayers!

[Brian Ashton]

Really sorry for him and his wife who had to find him like that.

There has to be more to this than what's so far been reported. For a plate to shatter the shield and helmet and then continue on to shatter the eye socket and skull it had to be traveling at incredible speed. Can someone who is on the other forum ask her or someone else to check what type of lathe it is and what the speed dial is at right now. Maybe this can shed some more light on the accident.

I know with my Oneway the first thing I notice when it was delivered was the speed control was an accident waiting to happen. It's completely exposed and if you lightly brush it you can go from literally 0 rpm to 2000 in a second. I've screwed a thick plastic D pull over it so it's much harder to get at and have such an accident.

I've had a similar experience years ago when I was working on a lathe that had the speed control in the opposite direction than what is on any other lathe and I inadvertently dialled the lathe up to over 2000rpm and the plate simply disappeared with a big crack. I mean the pieces flew off so fast I couldn't actually see it shatter and fly off. Thankfully I side stepped it and was missed by the shrapnel, didn't have the time to try and slow the lathe down it happened so fast, just had time to get out of the way.

It's going to make me rethink my face shield. I never turn without it but this is pretty serious. Might think about incorporating some sort of light cage that will at least stop anything that has the energy to breach the plastic shield. There's no getting around the face and head taking a big impact but at least if the shield holds up the energy will be spread out and there won't be puncture wounds or lost eyes.

[Brian Ashton]

We all need to remember that accidents happen in a split second............we may not be able to prevent every accident, but by doing our best to use the best practices we can in turning and using stable wood and wearing our safety equipment, hopefully we can diminish greatly the terrible consequences............

The turner in this accident had a "helment" on according to his wife..........Steven said he was not sure but it might have been one of those like used with chainsaws............hopefully more info will come out in time and we can all learn from it to better protect ourselves!

We should remember Adrian in our prayers!

Don't think it would have been a chainsaw shield as they're usually made with wire mess aren't they.

[Brian Kent]

A quick glance at facebook gives plenty of evidence that Adrien is experienced, safety conscious, and has a great mind (M.D. in Geriatric Psychiatry). Shows that accidents can happen to anyone and I am very glad he was wearing the head protection.

I am curious about the size of his lathe. His displayed pieces are all small-to medium size. Not giant pieces to compound the forces at work.

[Dan Forman]

I tend to wear a 3M dust respirator under my face shield, as well as safety glasses, not only stops the dust, but also provides some additional protection. In case of such an accident, it would absorb some of the energy if a piece went through the shield, and protect my nose and mouth at least. One of the benefits of doing a Batty style push cut, is that it pretty much keeps you out of the line of fire for much of the cut.

Dan

[JoAnn Duggan]

I am so sorry to hear of your husband's accident. I will keep him in my prayers for a speedy recovery.

God Bless

JoAnn DUggan

[Jon Prouty]

So sorry to hear about another serious injury at the lathe. My prayers for the turner and his family. Being a stubborn son of a gun I figured it would never happen to me so I've been using my cheap HF face shield and glasses. This story put me over the top and I placed an order for the Bionic face shield and will have it on my head (and covering my face) before I turn the lathe back on. I hope all others who are as stubborn as I am stop the foolishness and get properly protected so we can all be safe and enjoy our hobby.

Get well soon Adrien!
Jon

[Bill Summerlin]

What type of shield or brand of mask would we be able to get for maximum protection. Any one have suggestions?

[Roger Chandler]

What type of shield or brand of mask would we be able to get for maximum protection. Any one have suggestions?

Bill.........I use the Bionic face shield .......do a google search and you will find it. I got mine from Amazon.com. This shield has a frame around the clear visor.........I don't know that it is the best, but most turners do like them........you can get anti fog lenses for it as well.......about a year and a half ago, to perhaps 2 years, I had a piece of wood fly off the lathe that weighed about 2 lbs........it hit me in the face and the Bionic face shield caused it to bounce off and it went to the floor behind the lathe........

Likely it saved me from a trip to the emergency room.........no telling if I would have lost teeth and eye or had a bone fracture.........scary stuff, and I am sold on using a faceshield for protection and use the best technique you can muster to try and avoid major catches if you can.......sometimes approaching a cut slowly is the way to go!

[Roger Chandler]

So sorry to hear about another serious injury at the lathe. My prayers for the turner and his family. Being a stubborn son of a gun I figured it would never happen to me so I've been using my cheap HF face shield and glasses. This story put me over the top and I placed an order for the Bionic face shield and will have it on my head (and covering my face) before I turn the lathe back on. I hope all others who are as stubborn as I am stop the foolishness and get properly protected so we can all be safe and enjoy our hobby.

Get well soon Adrien!
Jon


Good on you Jon!!! If posting this thread about this accident helps even one turner do a better job with safety, then it was well worth reminding everyone about the dangers we turners can face when we turn on the lathe. Glad to hear you got the shield........wear it in good health!

[Richard Coers]

What type of shield or brand of mask would we be able to get for maximum protection. Any one have suggestions?

Lynne Yamaguchi sufferd a very similar accident, with similar injuries. Her research http://www.lynneyamaguchi.com/wordpress/2012/12/21/safety-gear/
found that her impact was 30 times greater than the rating of the Bionic shield. So definitely not the "best". Here is what she is going to wear from now on.
http://www.chiefsupply.com/police-equipment/tactical-gear-riot-equipment/max-pro-police-rd-1002x-half-riot-helmet-black.html

[Mike Cruz]

Roger, when/if you do find out more about this (what kind of face shield was he wearing, how big was the blank/plate, was he face plate turning or turning between centers or vacuum chucking or maybe faceplate with a sacrifice piece glued on or regular chuck, what speed was he turning at, etc?), please do post. If you can, please ask him these questions. He may not remember them all, but any info would be helpful.

I feel horribly for him. I really do. Not only because you don't wish this on anyone, not only because he is someone who practices safety, but also because it could be any one of us. But I just can't see how this happened under normal turning circumstances. Though, again, anything can happen anytime...

[Rich Aldrich]

I hope Adrien has a good recovery. Nothing is worse than getting hurt while doing something we really like. With the following, I am not picking on him or anything, I would just like to point out a few things that I think many of us overlook and refuse to use.

One of the interesting things I find on lathes is how most dont have guards and if the do, the turner doesnt use them. I also dont think the manufacturers take a lot of pains in designing better guards to encourage people to use them. We talk about face shields and all, but especially when I rough out a piece, I have the guard on. My lathe is a Jet 1642 EVS and I use the guard a lot more than I thought I would. It isnt the best and it does get in the way, but it is one more barrier between the wood block on the lathe and the wood block on my shoulders.

I am a mechanical engineer at a lumber and veneer plant (and 23 years at a paper mill prior). I know how difficult it is to get people to leave guards in place and how difficult it is to design a guard that people like - and will leave in place. We have had extensive safety training, but people just dont beleive anything will happen to them. I continually look at what I am doing and try to make sure I am being safe.

When I was 15, I started working in logging for my dad's company. No safety shoes, ear plugs, chaps, etc. Now I feel bare if I dont have the hard hat with ear muffs and face shield screen, chaps, safety shoes, etc. Sure it is hot and uncomfortable, but I would rather sweat and know that I am doing everything as safely as I can than take a much bigger chance of getting injured.

The bottom line is that we are the only ones responsible for our own safety in our shops. We need to do the right thing for ourselves and our family. At the end of the day, we all expect to walk out of our shops uninjured.

Sorry if I offend anyone.

[Montgomery Scott]

The steel cage that came with my 1642 is always used when turning except when it must be removed to accommodate the lathe steady. If you have one and don't use it you accept the risk of this happening.

I doubt there is any face shield, including riot gear, that can withstand the kinetic energy. A three ounce chunk of wood from the edge of a 12" diameter workpiece at 1500 rpm has slightly less kinetic energy than a .22LR bullet. I wonder what face shields are tested for this kind of impact energy.

[Roger Chandler]

The steel cage that came with my 1642 is always used when turning except when it must be removed to accommodate the lathe steady. If you have one and don't use it you accept the risk of this happening.

I doubt there is any face shield, including riot gear, that can withstand the kinetic energy. A three ounce chunk of wood from the edge of a 12" diameter workpiece at 1500 rpm has slightly less kinetic energy than a .22LR bullet. I wonder what face shields are tested for this kind of impact energy.

An interesting observation Montgomery.........makes one take pause and think about safety, and how we proceed.

Thanks for your input here!

[Dan Hintz]

A three ounce chunk of wood from the edge of a 12" diameter workpiece at 1500 rpm has slightly less kinetic energy than a .22LR bullet.

Though one would hope that bowl chunk's energy is spread over a much larger area than a .22's tiny jacket...

[Montgomery Scott]

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the acute angle end of a projectile is one of those fragments.

[ray hampton]

Though one would hope that bowl chunk's energy is spread over a much larger area than a .22's tiny jacket...

Since we can not SWING OUR HANDS AS QUICK AS A 22'S BULLET, can we multiply the weight of this hunk of wood by 10 and use a hammer of this weight to hit the face shield with ? if you owe a drill press place the shield on the drill press table with a short 2x4 on top of the shield , chuck a drill bit in the chuck and bring the drill bit to bear against the wood block and see if you are able to crack the shield

[Dan Hintz]

Since we can not SWING OUR HANDS AS QUICK AS A 22'S BULLET, can we multiply the weight of this hunk of wood by 10 and use a hammer of this weight to hit the face shield with ? if you owe a drill press place the shield on the drill press table with a short 2x4 on top of the shield , chuck a drill bit in the chuck and bring the drill bit to bear against the wood block and see if you are able to crack the shield

I'm not quite sure what you're experiment proves...

[Brian Finney]

A three ounce chunk of wood from the edge of a 12" diameter workpiece at 1500 rpm has slightly less kinetic energy than a .22LR bullet. .

My gut feeling was that 1500 rpm was too fast for a 12" dia. Consulted the instructions that came with the lathe, the fastest recommended speed for a 12" dia ie finishing is half the 1500rpm; roughing is less than 300rpm. I wonder if the issue as with a lot of driving accidents is speed. The centrifugal force increases dramatically with increased rpm and increased radius. Website is http://www.axminster.co.uk/downloads/502517_manual.pdf page 7 fig5 Brian

[Brian Finney]

Further to speed - I've just remembered a formula dia in inches x speed = 6000 - 9000. Taking a 12" dia piece that gives a speed of 500 - 750 rpm. The higher speed for finishing and the lower speed for general turning. Of course this assumes that the wood is consistent throughout, eg no cracks, shakes, out of round etc. which will require a further reduction in speed. Brian

[ray hampton]

I'm not quite sure what you're experiment proves...

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, what I said were not mine experiment, just an idea to see if your face shield will withstand the treatment IF YOU CAN AFFORD A EXTRA FACE SHEILD

[Robert Henrickson]

A three ounce chunk of wood from the edge of a 12" diameter workpiece at 1500 rpm has slightly less kinetic energy than a .22LR bullet.

Perhaps interesting in a general sense, but I'm not sure how this relates to this incident. So far I'm not aware of any specifics having been posted about the incident -- certainly not the diameter of the item being turned, nor the speed. The object was described as a "plate" (I checked the original post on WC), but there was no indication of its diameter, thickness, or any other specific.

[Glen Blanchard]

I am hoping we get some more specifics at some point because, even though I am a religious Bionic faceshield wearer, this story has got my attention. I wish Adrien a speedy recovery!!

[ray hampton]

I am hoping we get some more specifics at some point because, even though I am a religious Bionic faceshield wearer, this story has got my attention. I wish Adrien a speedy recovery!!

I hope that someone will do a search on the testing method for face shields, do they test to see how much impact they will withstand and the size of the impact object

[Brian Kent]

I hope that someone will do a search on the testing method for face shields, do they test to see how much impact they will withstand and the size of the impact object

Here is some info I just found, Ray:
http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ansiz8712003.html

[Montgomery Scott]

Perhaps interesting in a general sense, but I'm not sure how this relates to this incident. So far I'm not aware of any specifics having been posted about the incident -- certainly not the diameter of the item being turned, nor the speed. The object was described as a "plate" (I checked the original post on WC), but there was no indication of its diameter, thickness, or any other specific.

The obvious point being that objects on a lathe can have a very high kinetic energy to the point that you are fooling yourself if you think a faceshield is a reasonable amount of protection. It's like using a dust mask and thinking you have the protection of a respirator. Only the steel cage on the lathe will afford that kind of protection. What the object diameter and speed was is irrelevant as the evidence of damage shows the high KE.

[Brian Kent]

I cannot wear goggles with my 3M Half-Mask 7500 series respirator. They do not fit each other. I definitely need sawdust/lung protection so I have been using the half-mask respirator and the 3M polycarbonate face shield (ANSI standard Z87.1-2003) with no goggles.
Has anyone found a solution that allows wearing both the respirator and goggles (under the face shield)?

[mark ravensdale]

Hope he gets well soon!!!
i had a piece come apart just a few weeks ago, luckily my versa flow helmet took the brunt of the impact and I walked away without injury (apart from my pride for not spotting the flaw!!!)

[paul vechart]

Ray...there are such standards of which ANSI Z87.1 2003 is one. There are other standards also...

[ray hampton]

Here is some info I just found, Ray:
http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ansiz8712003.html

thanks BRIAN ,the high velocity test are the best test, if a shield can survive a 1/4 " ball impact then we may be safe but this raise a question, if you are turning a plate or bowl at 400 rpm and a quarter of the plate fly off and strike your shield, what will this piece speed be per/second ?

[Montgomery Scott]

thanks BRIAN ,the high velocity test are the best test, if a shield can survive a 1/4 " ball impact then we may be safe but this raise a question, if you are turning a plate or bowl at 400 rpm and a quarter of the plate fly off and strike your shield, what will this piece speed be per/second ?

The speed will be r*theta where r is the distance from the axis to the mass centroid and theta is rad/s.

[Brian Kent]

The speed will be r*theta where r is the distance from the axis to the mass centroid and theta is rad/s.

That's what I thought too :)

[ray hampton]

That's what I thought too :)

smart aleck, will someone add the numbers to this formula

[Dan Hintz]

That's what I thought too :)

Here, I'll blow you rmind. Imagine a 12" plate breaks apart and a slice comes flying off while running at 1k rpm. The slice runs from the rim to the very center. The rim is spinning at r*theta, but the center is essentially stationary. What's the speed of the chunk? ;) :P

That should keep you busy for a few seconds...

[Mike Cruz]

I think we should all stop turning. This just sounds way to dangerous! :eek:

Look, I've had a 12+" blank of cedar break in half and hit me in the chest. Sure, it was enough to make me change my shorts (I was fairly new to turning at the time and got a catch). But it wouldn't be enough to have shattered my face shield.

People, YES turning has its dangers. YES, you have to be careful. But be reasonable and stop thinking about kinetic energy and the speed of the rim at X rpm. Just be safe, turn within your ability, take your time, and be smart. Can things still happen? Of course. Just minimize them.

Is a seat belt or an airbag going to make a head on collision "safe"? No. "Might" they save you? Yes. That doesn't mean we need to question the seat belts and air bags and "are they good enough?". Just put your seat belt on, have air bags in your car, drive safely, and hope all goes well...that's all you can do.

Now go back to turning and enjoy it!

[Thom Sturgill]

Is a seat belt or an airbag going to make a head on collision "safe"? No. "Might" they save you? Yes. That doesn't mean we need to question the seat belts and air bags and "are they good enough?". Just put your seat belt on, have air bags in your car, drive safely, and hope all goes well...that's all you can do.

Now go back to turning and enjoy it!

Seat belts and air bags have been intensively tested both by the auto makers and independently by the insurance companies. My Airshield has not been tested PERIOD. It is neither impact nor air quality certified.

Better than nothing? certainly.
As good as it could be? no where near.
Affordable compared to the alternatives? yes, and there is the rub. It affordable, at least in part, because it is not manufactured such that it is certifiable, and because Trend apparently is not willing to spend the money to try certifying it, knowing that it would not pass. They saw a market and filled it.
Should I upgrade to something better? absolutely
Will I? not likely, at least in the near future. Oh I plan on buying a better face shield (I currently own two in addition to the Trend) as the ones I have fog badly. I wear the Trend while sanding, though I recently got better dust extraction working, so I'm less likely to wear it now since it is hard to see through. If I had to suit up in a HazMat suit, I'd give up the hobby...

[Mike Wagner]

When I am turning a questionable piece or making a cut that is higher risk, I switch from my Trend face shield to my ice hockey goalie mask. It isn't the most comfortable for turning but it minimizes the risk when doing these operations.

[ray hampton]

If you stand at the end of the lathe while turning a plate at recommended RPM , will the missile seek you out like a heat-seeking missile or fly off to the side true to its rotation

[Mike Cruz]

All depends on karma, Ray, all depends on karma...

[Glen Blanchard]

All depends on karma, Ray, all depends on karma...

Well, that, and the extent of one's heat signature!

[ray hampton]

All depends on karma, Ray, all depends on karma...

I never met this woman karma, there is a weapon use by the cowboys in the south [Brazil ] which consist of three strings join together at one end and a stone tie on the other end, a skill user can catch a cow with this weapon because of the flying pattern , when a section of wood fly off of a turning a high -speed camera can be aim to show it path pretty accurate, if the whole plate separate from the lathe then the direction will be any where in the 360 degrees circle [ East, West , North, South, Up, Down ] but a section of the plate will fly with the rotation of the spindle when the plate breaks up

[Mike Cruz]

I disagree, Ray. It is karma and karma only.

[ray hampton]

Mike Cause, did your family sing the song " what will be will be

[Grant Wilkinson]

Some years ago, an acquaintance of mine got hit on the faceshield with a fair sized chunk of punky wood. The face shield was ansi certified and it survived the impact pretty much unscratched. Of course, the force of the impact drove the face shield into his face breaking his nose, one cheek bone, and several teeth. I guess the moral of the story is that, if we are going to rely on ansi standards for face shields to protect us, we should only turn things that fling off small steel balls when they break.

[Brian Kent]

I am not sure I want a bigger lathe. I think a 3/4 hp motor can spin a big enough piece of wood, let alone getting hit by a bigger piece with 3 hp.

[Mike Cruz]

Brian, this is what I was afraid of... turners getting scared of turning. Do we all panic when someone mentions that a TS threw a piece of plywood back at them and knocked them out? Well, we reconsider our safety levels. We keep it close in our memories so that we don't get complacent when cutting stock. But we DON'T (or as least shouldn't) get scared to use the TS! We also shouldn't be scared to get a 3hp Unisaw (or PM, or SS, or whatever) in fear of its "power".

Brian, your lathe will spin a blank just as fast as a 3 hp lathe will. Maybe it'll take a little longer to wind up. Maybe (okay, definitely) it won't have as much torque. But that's not what we're talking about. This is about when the blank is already spinning and a piece comes off. It doesn't really matter what HP you have at that point.

Please, Brian (and anyone else that is thinking along the lines he is), DON'T fear your (or any) lathe. Respect it. Yes. Absolutely, respect it. But don't fear it. Heck, respect a 10 inch 1/2 HP mini lathe. That thing can grab loose clothing PDQ, too. And it can catch your finger between the wood and the tailstock, just like any big lathe can. Respect ALL your machines. Please don't fear them.

You are becoming a very good turner, Brian. Keep up the learning. Keep up the turning. When the urge calls, go bigger. Maybe be twice as safe if you want. But follow the passion that drives you to do this thing that drains our wallets and consumes our every waking moment. Don't settle because you are hearing scary things...

[Shawn Pixley]

The speed will be r*theta where r is the distance from the axis to the mass centroid and theta is rad/s.

Montgomery has the right formula. However the real issue is the momentum of what is flying off. If an half pound object flies off of a six inch radius turning at 1500 RPM's, the result is roughly equivelent to an object approximately 1-1/2 the mass of a baseball at about 60 miles per hour. At 400 RPM it is a little more the a quarter of the previous example. Neither would be fun. Obviously as the radius increases, the velocity increases as do the internal stresses on the wood being turned.

I've been beaned by baseballs around my left eye stealing second base. These resulted in conussions and I suspect they damaged the eyesight in my left eye. The other factors at hand are the resillience and shape of the object.

My point is that the danger is both in the velocity and the mass of the object. You can't really control the mass, but you can modulate the speed. I don't want to scare people away from turning. Instead I would urge us to be both concious of the turning speeds as well as what could happen if a large piece were to fly off. Safety equipment should be encouraged.

[Jerry Rhoads]

Lynne Yamaguchi sufferd a very similar accident, with similar injuries. Her research http://www.lynneyamaguchi.com/wordpress/2012/12/21/safety-gear/
found that her impact was 30 times greater than the rating of the Bionic shield. So definitely not the "best". Here is what she is going to wear from now on.
http://www.chiefsupply.com/police-equipment/tactical-gear-riot-equipment/max-pro-police-rd-1002x-half-riot-helmet-black.html

Thanks Dick. I have been wanting to get something better than a regular face mask when not using the Trend Air Shield.
Will put this on my wish list. Diane will probably find it bargain priced somewhere by my birthday in October

[Jack Mincey]

I hate to hear of another turner injured doing what we all love. To prevent this from happening I always turn with my lathe in the slow belt setting which makes it's Max speed just over 1200 RPMS which helps me from accidently turning the speed up to far like Reed said. I've never been in such a hurry to turn something out to turn a bowl at any more speed than 900 RPMs gives me. For large bowls 600 RPMs is fast enough. It is kind of like wrecking your car. Wreck one at 55 and your in for some serious hurt maybe even death. Wreck it at 25 MPH and you should walk away with a few bumps and bruises. Speed is a very dangerous thing at the lath. As a shop teacher for 29years I saw many bowls of all sizes come off the lathe and by keeping the speed down no students was ever hurt in any way.Jack

[ray hampton]

I hate to hear of another turner injured doing what we all love. To prevent this from happening I always turn with my lathe in the slow belt setting which makes it's Max speed just over 1200 RPMS which helps me from accidently turning the speed up to far like Reed said. I've never been in such a hurry to turn something out to turn a bowl at any more speed than 900 RPMs gives me. For large bowls 600 RPMs is fast enough. It is kind of like wrecking your car. Wreck one at 55 and your in for some serious hurt maybe even death. Wreck it at 25 MPH and you should walk away with a few bumps and bruises. Speed is a very dangerous thing at the lath. As a shop teacher for 29years I saw many bowls of all sizes come off the lathe and by keeping the speed down no students was ever hurt in any way.Jack

I do not want any turner to get hurt BUT I DO NOT WANT THEM TO QUIT TURNING BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID OF BEING HURT

[Mike Cruz]

To any of you who are getting scared of your lathe...

Ever wonder about the KE of a carbide tooth from your table saw that breaks free when spinning at 3450 rpm? Most of us where EYE PROTECTION only at the TS. How far into YOU do you think that tooth will go if it hits you in the face, neck, or anywhere? My guess is that it is about the same as a pellet gun at LEAST (size wise and velocity...1000 fps...but harder and with sharp edges!) But you still use the TS. As well you should. BUT, you use safety precautions... Eye protection (I use my face shield...), stand to the side, etc, etc.

PLEASE use respectful caution when turning. But PLEASE don't be afraid to turn. And PLEASE enjoy it!!!!!!

[Grant Wilkinson]

I wholeheartedly agree with the previous posts on not letting accidents scare us away from turning. I did not post my accident report to scare anyone. I did want to point out that relying on safety standards whose testing does not equate at all to what we are dealing with may not be the best of ideas. It seems to me the best approach is to do the best we can in the way of equipment and practices to reduce the chance that any part of our body, or anything that we are wearing, gets hit in the first place. I am not saying that we can completely eliminate the chance. However, we can at least reduce it.

[ray hampton]

I am not a engineer by any means but there must be a way to prevent you from getting HIT , mounting a round steel plate behind the chuck may be one way, the plate could have holes drill it it so that a cage could be install [1 side at a time ] the cage sides could be adjust for different size turnings, the sides should control any break-up of the turnings

[Glen Blanchard]

I wonder what percentage of folks use the cage that comes with the Powermatics. I have never seen an aftermarket version. Anyone know of one?

[Michael Mills]

On the link to the ANSI Z87 standards.
The standard test is for a one inch steel ball to be dropped from 50”, if the shied does not break it is good to go.
The + rating is much different with a heavier pointed object and a high velocity test.
At one time Amazon sold the Bionic with the standard and with the + rating. The + rating was about $15 more. If the + is not embossed in the shield during manufacture it is not +.
Unless Lynneyamguchi has posted other info (see Richard Coers post)she stated she was wearing the ANSI Z87 but gave the specs for the +. Never did she state hers had the + rating; it may have only been rated for the ball drop.

I don’t know who posted this but it is good info.
At 3,000 rpm that 1 ounce pen blank coming off is much different than a two pound 10” bowl blank.

[Jack Mincey]

I do not want any turner to get hurt BUT I DO NOT WANT THEM TO QUIT TURNING BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID OF BEING HURT
Ray, I've read my post several times and still don't see how one could thinks I'm afraid to turn because of being hurt. By turning bowls at safe speeds I don't really have a worry in the world when at the lathe. The main thing I was trying to get across is that speed can hurt you before you can react. To turn a solid piece of wood fast enough for it to explode from centrifugal force is just not in anyone's best interest. If wood is cracked or unsound it should be turned even slower. I'm not in a race when at the lathe, I enjoy turning to much to rush through it anyway. Happy turning Jack

[ray hampton]

I wonder what percentage of folks use the cage that comes with the Powermatics. I have never seen an aftermarket version. Anyone know of one?

I found [internet]three lathes with a guard of type , oliver, pm, vega . vega guard will move along the bed while the other two are fix in one location , my idea would cost more money and are total different

[ray hampton]

Ray, I've read my post several times and still don't see how one could thinks I'm afraid to turn because of being hurt. By turning bowls at safe speeds I don't really have a worry in the world when at the lathe. The main thing I was trying to get across is that speed can hurt you before you can react. To turn a solid piece of wood fast enough for it to explode from centrifugal force is just not in anyone's best interest. If wood is cracked or unsound it should be turned even slower. I'm not in a race when at the lathe, I enjoy turning to much to rush through it anyway. Happy turning Jack

I hope that my statement was not taken the wrong way, telling people not to be afraid are a slap in the face ,I hit 2 items at very slow speed and the person in the way did not know which way to move, the first item was glass pop bottle, my wheel hit it in a manner so as to throw it about 10 feet high while a man who were walking stop and watch the bottle crash at his feet, the second time my boss were the victim and the missile was a piece of wood caught by the fork lift front wheel[sharp point ] both time the person had time to move out of the way BUT WHICH WAY TO MOVE

[Grant Wilkinson]

Michael: Lynne was not wearing her face shield when she had the accident. Here is a quote from her blog:

"Even though I wasn’t wearing my face shield at the time, since my accident, I have looked into whether I could improve that protection. (I also wanted to find out how much protection my face shield would have provided.)"

Her blog makes interesting reading. It shows in a chart just how completely inadequate the Ansi standards are to a turner's situation. Here is the link to the research that she did

http://www.lynneyamaguchi.com/wordpress/2012/12/21/safety-gear/

She says that the piece that his her developed 30 times the kinetic energy as that derived from the Ansi test. A very sobering thought, I suggest.

[William Bachtel]

Lets not forget, that a project that is not secured properly, or cracked and not safe to even put on a lathe, is the cause of many projectiles, not the safety equipment, the safety equipment comes into play after the fact. ALWAYS WEAR AND USE ALL SAFETY GEAR. ALWAYS.

[ray hampton]

will boxers head gear help ?

[Grant Wilkinson]

I spoke to a rep at 3M Canada yesterday and he sent me the tech specs on the unit that I have. Mine is an older GVP with the bump cap and visor, and powered air. It is very similar to the Airmate that Bill Grumbine has in his video, the difference being that the Airmate has the blower and motor in the cap, while mine is on my belt.

The specs are interesting, as they clearly show that this unit is not designed to withstand hits like we are talking about. So far in my research, I have not found any clear-visored unit that has been tested in an environment like ours. Lynne Yamaguchi talks in her blog about a riot helmet she was going to buy. It came much closer to protecting against the force of a lathe-fired projectile than anything else she found, but it comes up short, too. One thing that I did read about several of the visor units is that their rated protection is based on a chin strap being in place. I imagine that's so, in the event of a hit, the unit cannot pivot down and the visor will not slam into face parts. I don't believe that I have ever seen anyone wearing protection while turning and having a chin strap snugged up.

It looks like the only unit designed to take hits such as ours is a cage unit - lacrosse, hockey goalie, etc. I just can't see myself wearing something that big, heavy and hot. I do have a full coverage motorcycle helmet, but the visor on it is not rated to take a big hit, either.

[Mike Cruz]

Good info Grant. But I would HOPE that a motorcycle helmet visor is made to withstand our kind of impacts... Think of a piece of gravel coming at you when going 65 mph...

[Chris Studley]

I'm not sure that ANSI rating is worth much... a 1" steel ball dropped from 50" is not a lot of energy at all considering the forces and masses discussed here. A 2" steel ball dropped 1.3m (~51") only produces and impact of 5 foot-lbs. a 1" ball would be likely less than half that. Having performed the 2" ball impact test many times(IT and medical equipment enclosures), I have seen some seemingly flimsy materials pass and some rigid pieces shatter like toffee. The amount of give in the entirety of the Face shield assy will play as much a role in it being protective as the shield lens itself. Think Crumple zones in your car which absorb impact energy. Also the securement to your head and the angle of impact could also render it useless (or save you). As it has been said above, certainly there are incidences where your seatbelt or airbag can make things worse but mostly they are helpful and you are better with them, then without.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Mike: It may well put up with it. I don't intend to test it, though. :-) If you read Lynn's blog, you'll see that she did quite a bit of research into the energy generated by the chunk of wood that hit her versus the energy developed by the various objects used by the testing agencies. The Ansi test is not even close to addressing real world turner issues. That's not a fault in the testing, I suggest. It's just that they are not testing products to see if they would survive a lathe-thrown projectile, moving very, very fast, and perhaps weighing a few pounds.

[Brian Finney]

QUOTE=Grant Wilkinson;2121137]... The Ansi test is not even close to addressing real world turner issues. That's not a fault in the testing, I suggest. It's just that they are not testing products to see if they would survive a lathe-thrown projectile, moving very, very fast, and perhaps weighing a few pounds.[/QUOTE]

The ANSI test as described must be testing the ability to protect from small projectiles that would cause damage to the eye or face. The hazard of a piece blowing up needs to be addressed by other means, including:

1. Using appropriate speed. The formula diameter in inches x rpm = 6000 -9000 works and was used before face shields where available. Even using the formula a further reduction in speed is appropriate if the piece is not round, off centre etc. For roughing use 6000 in the formula; for finishing cut use 9000 in the formula when everything is symmetrical; and something in between for general turning.

2. Stand out of the line of fire

3. Listening for sound changes etc.

4. Wrapping doubtful pieces in tape or similar.

5 Not turning that piece if you are at all concerned - there is not a shortage of wood, pick another piece it’s far cheaper.

A flimsy piece of plastic tested to ANSI isn't going to save you for a lump coming off - it is NOT Bionic. But it may protect your eyes and is therefore essential.

Brian

[lloyd morris]

So sorry to hear this. Prayers for s speedy recovery.

[Rick Markham]

I hope he quickly heals! I bet he is glad he had his helmet/facemask on!