Track Saws and Rails

[Julie Moriarty]

I saw Bosch makes what looks like a pretty decent track saw but it's not sold in the U.S. It seems, "track saws aren't exactly flying off the shelves in the USA" is part of the reason Bosch hasn't introduced them into the U.S. market. I had previously thought track saws sold fairly well.

What I really liked about the Bosch reviews I read was when joining two guide rails together, you just join them and they'll be properly aligned. No needing another tool to align them. I know Festool rails require you to use a straight edge or some aftermarket alignment jig to ensure the joined rails are straight. Festool even made a video to show you how to do it.

From what I could find, it looks like Festool, Makita and DeWalt have track saws on the U.S. market. I heard Grizzly was supposed to join in. One review of the three ranked Makita #1, Festool #2 and DeWalt #3. It said Makita had more power and did just as good a job as Festool, for about $200 less. But it looks like Makita has a similar situation as Festool when it comes to joining rails but their connectors look a bit longer. Maybe their connectors can keep the Makita rails from being knocked out of alignment as easily as Festool's. I don't know.

To me, the make or break on a track saw is in the ability of the rails to be easily joined dead-straight and maintain that alignment during normal use. According to a number of Festool TS owners, you're better off with one single rail than two or more joined rails because the rails have to be aligned with a straight edge (or the Betterley StraightLine Connector) and then you have to be cautious when handling the joined rails. The few comments I read about the Makita seem to indicate the same is true but to a lesser degree.

If you have been looking into buying a track saw but haven't, why? The price? The rail situation?

If you own a track saw, what brand do you own? Do you use it often, little or something in between? Has it been worth the price? What's been your experience regarding joining rails?

[Art Mann]

I own the Makita track saw. I use it just about every time I cut up sheet goods. I use my tablesaw for ripping but the track saw is much, much easier to use for cross cutting. The results I get are about as good as what I get using my 90 tooth miter saw trim blade. I just wish I had bought one sooner. I only have a single 55" rail since the longest cut I typically make with it is 48". I have done ripping by cutting half way, moving the track and cutting the rest of the way. The results are good provided you mark accurately and carefully place the track. I do plan to buy the long track one of these days.

One thing about the Makita that may be true of other track saws. Almost all the sawdust comes straight out the dust port - which is a good thing if you have a dust collector hooked up. If you don't have a dust collector, the sawdust may come flying directly at you depending on how the port is oriented.

[Mike Cutler]

Julie
I own two systems.

1. A set of EZ rails. I have them set up to use with a Makita circular saw, and a Milwaukee Worm drive saw. For a homeowner, DIY'r I have used them quite a bit, with both saws. I almost exclusively have both rails connected and move them around frequently, and have no problems cutting a panel 4 square, or keeping them aligned. I see the alignment as a non issue. It's too easy to align them. The larger issue, for me, is the 90 degree alignment of the blade to the material with these rails. Add the baseplate, the saw's baseplate, and the rails and it's pretty easy to have issues getting a true 90 along an entire edge. It can be done, but you have to have patience and set it. The junction of the rails has to have no "lip page" or distortion, or the saw skews in that area.

2. I have a Festool TS 75 with an ~ 6' rail.
Honestly, I don't have much experience with it. I bought it last fall. It was discounted because Festool changed the design of their Systainer box, and I just happened to be in a Woodcraft when they marked it down $125.00. For a $125.00, I can deal with a different plastic locking mechanism.;) I figured if I hated it, I could recoup my $$$. It seems nice, but I expect the same fundamental problem, getting an accurate 90 degree cut along the edge to the material face.
I put the Festool through some paces on a 2"+ thick piece of Bocote and Jatoba, by using it to joint an initial edge, just to see how it would do. It did fine. If the Makita is more powerful than the TS 75, at the same depth of cut, that's impressive.

I think that joining any two rails is going to present some type of problem(s) that will need to be addressed with an alignment check. I also can't see not using some form a reference to check that the rails are aligned. If Bosch is truly stating that their rails need no alignment check after joining, that too would be very impressive. I'd like to see it. The material tolerances would have to be very tight to maintain.

I think the reason that they're not more well received is that they aren't compatible with the workflow process, as we've been taught, and they are expensive. It also doesn't help that they seem to use non standard, read proprietary, blades that aren't readily available.
Aluminum "L" Channel is cheap, and you can buy a stack of Freud Diablos to fit any circular saw for the price of a Festool blade. It's very easy to make your own, accurate, rail system. If any manufacturer cannot offer convenience, ease of setup, and speed, to offset cost,I don't see them being a huge market.

[Eric DeSilva]

Festool makes 8 different sizes of guide rails, so one thing you might think about is how you intend to use the saw. If you work exclusively with 5x5 BB plywood, a single 75" rail (the 1900) gives you plenty of room for both cross cuts and rips. If you use 4x8 sheets, but intend to still rip on the TS, a 55" rail (the 1400) might be sufficient. If you want to rip 8' sheets and don't like joined rails, there's a 118" guide rail (the 3000) that will do that too. I got lucky and found a guy who got transferred overseas who sold me a 1400, 1900, and 3000, plus I have a 1080 on my MFT, so I've got a lot of flexibility.

[Dave Novak]

I know Festool rails require you to use a straight edge or some aftermarket alignment jig to ensure the joined rails are straight. Festool even made a video to show you how to do it.

In my humble hobbyist opinion, the concern regarding joining two festool rails together is a lot of fuss about nothing. True, over the 8' length of the cut I may be off a cat hair or two, but If I just exercise the same care I use when laying out, measuring, and cutting everything else I do I'll be well within acceptable tolerances. There's no way I could do better on any table saw trying to keep the entire 8' uniformly snug against a fence.

[Greg R Bradley]

The Bosch plunge tracksaws are somewhat similar to the Festool and Makita. They are actually a Mafell saw. Even though Bosch does not sell them, Mafell has a dealer and you can buy them in the US at: http://www.timberwolftools.com
You will think Festool is a bargain after looking at Mafell pricing.

Bosch also has saws that are similar to a standard circular saw but can run on the narrow Bosch/Mafell constuction style rails. No plunge, no dust collection, etc. You can look at http://www.toolstop.com and see the various ones and see pricing but Bosch won't allow them to ship those items to the US.

Mafell plunge tracksaw runs on either the "Bosch" rails you mentioned, which are designed more for construction use or the fine woodworking rails, which are the same as Festool rails. Makita rails are 99% identical to Festool so any mention of one being easier to keep straight when joining is wrong.

You can join the rails and have them be straight. You will have to use some care with joined rails as it is a more fragile assembly. You join rails when you need to do that and buying longer ones comes down to finances and transport issues. Mafell actually has 4-5 different rail setups for different uses including one where the rail curls up around the saw for storage in a systainer and another where the saw is attached and runs down the rail under power.

I bought a Festool tracksaw about 25 years ago and recall that the rails looked very much like the Bosch/Mafell ones you mentioned. I did a big upgrade to a Makita around 7 years ago and then upgraded to a Festool TS55 about 3 years ago, mainly for the anti-splinter on both sides of the cut. My Makita is still in regular use in a production display shop. The Makita SP6000 and the Festool TS55 are very similar. I haven't seen the newer Festool tracksaw that was just released.

[Sam Murdoch]

In my humble hobbyist opinion, the concern regarding joining two festool rails together is a lot of fuss about nothing. True, over the 8' length of the cut I may be off a cat hair or two, but If I just exercise the same care I use when laying out, measuring, and cutting everything else I do I'll be well within acceptable tolerances. There's no way I could do better on any table saw trying to keep the entire 8' uniformly snug against a fence.

In my humble professional opinion I completely agree with Dave. I connect various lengths of Festool rails as a matter of course (for about 6 years of weekly and regularly, more frequent use) and have only once found a misalignment. That was my fault. The most important (and I suspect neglected) aspect of having success with connected rails is that the work surface that supports your cut piece and the track rails needs to be flat. You compromise that and you get less than straight cuts.

I can't imagine that Bosch has made a system that overrides that basic requirement, though admittedly I have not seen their version and so can have no valid opinion. I also understand from reading posts on the F.O.G. that there are in fact real issues in this regard for some folks. Even Festool makes some lemons though they will bend over backwards to make certain that you don't suffer more than a little inconvenience for their shortcomings. My experience with the track saw and connecting rails has been excellent.

[Larry Frank]

I have the Festool track saw and am very happy. I have not had any problems joining the rails but am careful when I do it and check to make certain it is correct. While the rails are important, I think that it is more important that it gives a great cut without splintering even hardwood thin veneer.

Also, the dust collection of the Festool is excellent.

[Mac McQuinn]

I feel there are too many alternatives to a TS available at considerable savings. For my type of work, I use a pair of saw horses, sheet of 1" foam board, clamp-on straight edge and my Ridgid Fuego 6.5 thin kerf saw to cut sheet goods, leaving 1/32" margin for finish. Once you know blade offset, you pencil it on side of saw and it's very easy to work with. Install a dust pick-up tube and plug in a Vac for very good collection w/ the Foam board underneath. **Installing a piece of self adhesive clear tape on side of Saw makes it glide along the straight edge.

If I was doing home calls for finish work, remodeling projects, I'd probably go for a Festool TS-55 & CT Midi vac. although still wear my respirator and tape off work areas.

Mac

[Jamie Buxton]

I have a Festool TS-55. I use it for staightlining roughsawn lumber, and for breaking down sheet goods. It is very valuable for me. If it walked off in the middle of the night, I'd be buying another track saw tomorrow.

I originally tried to use two short rails and a joiner to get a rail longer than eight feet. That failed too often, so I bought a 9 foot rail. However, I gotta admit it turns the whole system into a lot of money. If the Festool did walk off in the middle of the night, I'd at least shop the alternatives that have come on the market. I might end up back at Festool -- they do make good stuff -- but I'd at least look around.

[Jim Matthews]

+1 on cutting sheet goods over a piece of foam board.

When I bought my EZ Smart se (http://www.eurekazone.com/)t (two 50 inch rails that join) the other choices were not yet on the market.
If you already own a good circular saw, it has an adapter plate that is easy to mount. You do lose some depth of cut, roughly 3/8"

I only use it for sheet goods, mainly 3/4" plywood so it's adequate.

If there's a package deal including a good blade, motor and guide - they're all up to the task.
Only the Festool marque maintains any measure of residual value, the rest seem to be going for a song on the secondhand market.

[Kelly Colin Mark]

I've got a TS75 and a TS55. If you're worried about joining rails, just buy one long enough that you don't need to join. The long rails are indeed expensive, but at my dealer in Toronto, the Makita 118" rail is about half the price ($189) of the equivalent Festool rail and work just as well with the TS saws. If you have to join rails, you have to buy the connector, so you can effectively deduct about $30 from the price of whatever long rail you buy.

The TS rides fine on the Makita rails. I understand that some tools - I recall the router - may not work on the Makita rails.

[howard s hanger]

I have the TS55 and a variety of rails. Once in a while I need to join a pair and have zero issue with alignment. Marc Spagnoulo (wood whisperer) did a recent review of the Grizzly and IIRC, it was not up to the quality of the Festool. You get what you pay for, at least with track saws. You will never feel the need to replace it if you go with the Festool. It's the best you can get.

[Ole Anderson]

I just finished breaking down 8 sheets with a newly acquired Grizzly track saw. The only available rails are 55". At first I was leary of the ability to get a straight eight foot rip with the joined rails, but I soon realized that, after joining the rails several times, it really is a non-issue. The ends are cut with dead on 90's, actually I guess they could be cut at 89 degrees and because they only go together one way, as long as the 2 angles are the same they will and do align perfectly. The only issue is if there a slight offset due to slop in the spline, you get a bump when the saw passes the joint.

While I agree with Marc that there are some issues with quality and design, at the end of the day the Grizz gives me the same splinter free straight cut you get with the other green machine, except that I have almost $600 left in my pocket to buy more power tools.

[Tom Ewell]

Back when, like my Multimaster, Festool seemed to be the only rig of this type on my radar (must have been some others but apparently not near the current selection available now), EZ was making lots of noise at the time about they're system but that's another story.

Dust collection, splinter free, accuracy and single cut line at any set angle were my primary reasons to give it a go but plunge and riving knife were a strong second. I break down sheets occasionally with it but if I can get the yard to rip them "close" with a panel saw I usually do and go to the table saw for rip sizing, crossing cuts go to the MFT or rails.

I've retrofitted a ton of new doors into old existing jambs, modified old tall corner hutches, scribed extension jambs for window trims on old and new, scribed counters and cabinets, fitted cedar ply soffits on raked overhangs (visualize hopper cuts), cabinet box fabrication goes without saying and the list goes on. Coupling-up the rails has not been a problem, I do double check if they get bumped and there has been the occasional "tick" felt at the joints but mostly on less than flat material.

There have been a few times when cutting down either side of the rail (like the EZ) would be handy but I've manage well enough without this feature. The saw itself of course fits the "system", some have been put off a little with the "grinding" sound at startup (soft start and some sort of electronics feedback thingy) but it's smooth as silk once it's going and it has gone a lot. The TS 55 struggled a little long mitering some 1-1/2" butcher block, needed to shine up the cut with a rail guided OF 1400 and a straight bit.

Still not real fond of the metric stuff but I'm getting there, I understand that the new saws have and optional sticker or something for we inchers. I did get the accessory kit, the extra goodies are great but I've rarely used the angle unit, it's simpler for me I guess to just measure, mark, line up the rail and go. The tote bag for the rails is real handy but if the saw stays in the shop might not need one. I've used the clamps for all kinds of stuff where a normal clamp won't fit. (DeWalt track clamps fit the Festo's). Trying out an Oshlun blade for the TS 55, so far not too shabby.

Did eventually get an EZ setup for job-site so the boys could use a track rig (without me hovering over them) and was surprised that the cost for the EZ, new dedicated saw and setup time accounted for was not that much less than the Festool.

Can't speak to the other brands except that I've generally used Dewalt, Makita and Bosch gear regularly and have found little to complain about so if they keep up to snuff I would expect their track units to perform on par within themselves. It's hard for me to get into cost vs performance equating to value when it comes this stuff, too many variables amongst the end users needs but if one were to blind compare this group side by side I suspect a favorite might tilt a little in one direction.

[Rich Engelhardt]

If you own a track saw, what brand do you own? Do you use it often, little or something in between? Has it been worth the price? What's been your experience regarding joining rails?
I own a Festool TS55EQ, two 44" rails and one 42" rail.
I use it too frequently. Just yesterday I used it to cut roof sheathing. That's really a job for a circular saw with a piece of 2x4 as a guide,,,,,but,,,, the TS55EQ is just so good at what it does, I'm spoiled....

I've never had a problem joining the rails together.
I suspect that's because of two things.
#1 - I always use a table like this one (http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/panel_cutting_table.htm).
#2 - I always clamp the rails using the Festool clamps.

One aspect of the Festool that's usually over looked is that the track saws are only components in a much larger system.
Even though a lot of people, myself included, just use the track saw - the fact remains that some portion of the higher Festool cost has to go towards keeping all the components of the system compatible.

When I bought my TS55EQ a few years ago, there was Festool and EZ. After a brief discussion via PM with another member who related his experience w/both, I went w/the Festool.

[Julie Moriarty]

Right now I have four (4) sheets of plywood to cut down for a cabinet project. Two are 1/4" sapele with MDF core, one is 3/4" birch with MDF core and the last is 3/4" maple with veneer core. I ripped one of the 1/4" pieces yesterday by using a 2'x8' 1/4" piece of plywood (cut on a panel saw) as a straight edge. I used a 6-1/2" cordless circular saw with a decent blade to make the cut. The cut was straight and clean but the dust that was thrown into the air was substantial. About 1/3 the way through the 8' cut, I took the 36mm hose from my CT 26 and held that close to the saw while I cut. It reduced the dust by about half. But the saw wasn't designed for efficient dust collection. I made the cut in our basement rec room and after only one cut I know there will be a lot of mess to clean up after I'm done.

I've gone without a track saw for over 30 years but as time passes I find sheet goods getting harder and harder to manage, especially getting them down the stairs to my basement shop. Having some means of making accurate, clean cuts without taking them to the table saw would be nice. But honestly, from what I was reading on FOG, that rail issue means I'd have to have a single rail of whatever length I'd need for making cuts and that can add up fast.

Anyone interested in the seeing the Bosch GKT 55, here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AmGA40APP8
Although I'm pretty sure it's not available in the U.S., they do sell a 110v version. The price would be about $575 US, with a 1600 rail and L-Boxx, right there with Festool.

I like the connectors and end caps on their guide rails. The connector looks much easier to use than Festool's or Makita's and looks pretty solid. It reminded me of the Betterley connector. And the end rail cap solves both the problem of dinging the ends and cord & hose snagging. Nice design. If this was sold in the U.S. I'd seriously consider buying this.

[Julie Moriarty]

If you can understand Dutch, here's a shootout of Mafell, Festool TS55 & 75, Makita, DeWalt and Bosch track saws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFcBOT2UTfU&NR=1&feature=endscreen

[Julie Moriarty]

You will think Festool is a bargain after looking at Mafell pricing.
:eek:
I never thought I'd say this but Festool is a bargain!

[Greg R Bradley]

In looking at the video, it seems that the current Bosch is no longer a Mafell with a Bosch label like it was 3 years ago when Bosch said they were coming to the US. A Mafell expert could probably tell us if Bosch is still selling an older version and the Mafell was improved.
It shows clearly where Festool stole Mafell's retractable off side anti-splinter for their current version. Festool also stole Dewalt's flat side where you can use the saw like a jamb saw. I think I see some Festool ideas in the current Bosch. Mafell made the Festool OF2000 router so there is definitely some intermixing of ideas and manufacturing.

You don't need to be able to understand Dutch for me to see them complaining about the Makita power cord, the Dewalt plunge and blade change, and being thrilled with the Mafell blade change mechanism.

If you can find a Makita on sale, you will probably be thrilled with it. When I upgraded to the Festool TS55, it was about $120 more and I remember thinking that seemed hard to justify. I think the Makita is about 90% as good as the Festool TS55 and the new Festool has some minor improvements. The Makita will be a huge improvement over any of the bargain tracksaws or even the best saw and guide systems. I have the old Porter Cable 314 saw that Eurekazone claims is the best saw ever made for their system and it is pretty sad by comparison.

For occasional use, joining two rails will probably be fine. It might be less problem than trying to get a 118" rail up and down stairs and around corners.

[David Weaver]

I've got a TS75 and a TS55. If you're worried about joining rails, just buy one long enough that you don't need to join. The long rails are indeed expensive, but at my dealer in Toronto, the Makita 118" rail is about half the price ($189) of the equivalent Festool rail and work just as well with the TS saws. If you have to join rails, you have to buy the connector, so you can effectively deduct about $30 from the price of whatever long rail you buy.

The TS rides fine on the Makita rails. I understand that some tools - I recall the router - may not work on the Makita rails.

I can confirm at least for me that the OF1400 will not work on my makita rail. I don't clamp down my rails, though, so it's not been much of an issue as long as I make sure my cut orientation isn't a climbing cut. I don't really use it (the OF1400) for anything other than dados.

I love the SP6000K or whatever it is Makita calls the track saw. It's fantastic. I've also had no issue joining two rails (though I didn't know makita made connectors, I just use two festool connectors). I don't know how much error there might be in the cut, but if it's a 64th or a 32nd over the length I probably wouldn't notice much, and if it was a concern (close your eyes, power tool purists), i'd make the cut a 16th fat and hand plane to a struck dead straight line.

Were I to buy a long rail, after the fiasco that occurred with the dewalt long rail (many people complaining their rails were bent in shipping), I'd want to buy it locally so I could see that it wasn't bent in shipping. Not that you couldn't get a shipped rail straight or return it if it wasn't straight, I just wouldn't want to fool with returning one and waiting for a credit.

[Julie Moriarty]

I went back to the Timberwolf site, curious why the Mafell saw was almost $800 - less any rails or other accessories. Then I noticed I couldn't find Mafell rails there. :confused:

[Julie Moriarty]

FWIW, the Dutch shootout ranked Mafell #1, Festool #2 and Bosch #3. It looked like the tests included fastest blade change (Mafell won) , fastest cut on hardwood (1. Mafell, 2. Bosch), fastest cut in fermacell ( couldn't tell the winner but the DeWalt spit out a LOT of dust!) In terms of power it looked like both Mafell and Bosch had no problems with the hardwood but Festool and Makita struggled, Makita more than Festool.

Here's an interesting rail securing system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuOmKBRtNa8&list=PLB69F46BE49C88904

[David Weaver]

I've only made one cut in anything other than sheet goods, but I didn't have any trouble with it. It was only in cherry or poplar, though - can't remember which. I wonder how much of it's the saw, and how much of it's the blade (when it comes to trouble with hardwoods).

[Charles Wiggins]

If you own a track saw, what brand do you own? Do you use it often, little or something in between? Has it been worth the price? What's been your experience regarding joining rails?

I have a Festool TS-55. I use it just about any time I have sheet goods to cut unless the quality of the cut is not crucial. The main reason being I have not taken the time to set up a ZCI on any of my other tools. It's been worth it for me. I rarely have to set up my table saw for anything besides ripping and there's no wrestling sheet of plywood into just the right place and worrying with outfeed issues. When I join two rails I do check it against a straight edge, but so far I've never had to adjust anything. As long as the two ends are flush against each other when I lock it down with the screws everything's good.

[Rick Christopherson]

What I really liked about the Bosch reviews I read was when joining two guide rails together, you just join them and they'll be properly aligned. No needing another tool to align them. I know Festool rails require you to use a straight edge or some aftermarket alignment jig to ensure the joined rails are straight. Festool even made a video to show you how to do it. The issue with joining rails isn't about different brands. It is about geometry, and they all have the same problem (or lack of problem) equally. The potential problem is that you are trying to create an accurate 10-foot (or more) straightedge that is controlled by a 7-inch wide butt joint. Simply having a 0.010" skew at the butt joint translates to 0.080" skew at the end of the 55" rail. (If decimal is hard to picture, that's 1/128" error causing a 1/16" skew.)

Whether that type of error is important to you (or others) is a matter of preference. But what this shows is simply that trying to control a long straightedge with a narrow butt joint is not very accurate. Even having a barely noticeable nick in the end of a rail can produce a burr larger than 0.010", and result in significant error along the length. Trivial or not, it would be irresponsible to not tell people the best way of doing something, and they will develop their own methods over time.

Prior to this video I made a few years ago, the Festool trainers were not showing the "straightedge method" to students. It was some other method that they didn't realize at the time wasn't doing a thing to control straightness.

In reality, because the inaccuracy is probably not a big deal for most cuts or most woodworkers, then really all you have to do is just periodically check your butt joint to verify that it is giving you reasonable results. As long as it's a tight butt and you haven't nicked the end of your rail, then you will get repeatable joinings. That should hold true regardless of brand. If you notice that joining 2 rails gives you an accurate straight line, but reversing them left-to-right doesn't, then simply mark those ends for repeated joining.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xjd2AGr1pw

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I purchased the Dewalt because Amazon had a blow-out sale of the saw with two rails for a silly cheap price.

The reviews were favorable, and there were even a few things the Dewalt could do (it was claimed) that the Festool could not like you could use it against a wall (not that I have a clue how you would secure the track to the wall). This is all fuzzy in my head.

I use this mostly to break down sheet goods and to produce a straight edge on long stock that I cannot put through my TS because of the saw's proximity to a wall (limits me to about a six foot cut).

I usually connect a vacuum to collect the dust while I cut, and that seems to work OK, but I have nothing against which to compare. Hop in your car and I will see you in six hours and you can test mine :D

[Brian Kincaid]

I have a DW tracksaw with a oversize and short rail and a LOT of EZ rails. I have never connected the DW rails so I cannot comment on their alignment.

I have connected EZ rails with great success. I was doing 12' rips in 2x lumber and the edges came out great using their off-the-shelf connectors. I verified by taking the rail beside the cut, check for gaps, roll the rail over and check again. If the length of the connector is a concern I expect you could order a set of custom connectors that are longer. Also, the connector extrusion is available from EZ and they have a center-line for alignment to drill and tap.

Either way I hope you consider some type of track-saw. I recommend them regardless of brand.

-Brian

[Steve Baumgartner]

In my humble professional opinion I completely agree with Dave. I connect various lengths of Festool rails as a matter of course (for about 6 years of weekly and regularly, more frequent use) and have only once found a misalignment. That was my fault. The most important (and I suspect neglected) aspect of having success with connected rails is that the work surface that supports your cut piece and the track rails needs to be flat. You compromise that and you get less than straight cuts.

I can't imagine that Bosch has made a system that overrides that basic requirement, though admittedly I have not seen their version and so can have no valid opinion. I also understand from reading posts on the F.O.G. that there are in fact real issues in this regard for some folks. Even Festool makes some lemons though they will bend over backwards to make certain that you don't suffer more than a little inconvenience for their shortcomings. My experience with the track saw and connecting rails has been excellent.

+1. The worst crooked cuts I have gotten were when my cutting table sagged. I would strongly recommend making a light torsion box to provide the rigidity and then facing it with foam board to support the work and to trap the sawdust. Also, I have four rails of assorted lengths, and I use one of the spares across the joint to align things when I join. You can just as easily use a long level or another straightedge.

Steve

[Mike Goetzke]

We are almost neighbors - I'm in Orland Park.

It's all in the rails:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/EZ%20Smart/Rails/Rails.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/EZ%20Smart/Rails/Rails.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/EZ%20Smart/Rails/rail3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/EZ%20Smart/Rails/rail3.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/EZ%20Smart/Rails/rails2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/EZ%20Smart/Rails/rails2.jpg.html)


...but, I've been using a track saw system for over 10 years now and many new tools have spawned off of the track saw. Enough that I sold my Uni about 1-1/2 years ago.

My rails are Eurekazone but all really do the same thing (I did try a Makita track system once but sold it since I didn't like the rear plunging saw). On my last two projects I broke down the sheet goods with a tool they call the Universal Edge Guide (UEG). The rip edges of ply a usually straight so you set up this tool and guide it along the sheets edge:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Router%20Table/Cut%20Panels/IMG_0010_zpscbf9274c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Router%20Table/Cut%20Panels/IMG_0010_zpscbf9274c.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Router%20Table/Cut%20Panels/IMG_0011_zps61fff707.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mbg/media/Projects/Router%20Table/Cut%20Panels/IMG_0011_zps61fff707.jpg.html)



I then use a tool they call the Square to crosscut.



I also have an EZ-One bench but I find for sheet goods all I need is the UEG & Square.

I like using rough sawn lumber but I like to both break it down in width and start with a nice straight edge before hitting the jointer and planer. For this I use my 135" rail and Smart clamps that I leave assembled all the time and store on a lumber rack in my garage.


Good Luck,

Mike

[Julie Moriarty]

With the Mafell/Bosch rails, there's a substantial connector.
http://www.dm-tools.co.uk/extraimages/Mafell_Guide_Rail.jpg
http://www.powertoolworld.co.uk/user/products/large/Bosch2/FSN_VEL.jpg

It would seem to me this type of connector would be superior to the two bars you see in other brands.

I saw a video of the Betterley connector aligning Festool rails and it worked perfectly.
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/a6F97WFYwkU/hqdefault.jpg
The Betterley claimed to align two tracks regardless of the condition of the ends. So if they were banged up or out of square from the factory, it didn't matter. Seeing the Bosch connector in action convinced me it was better than the two bars method.

[Sam Murdoch]

Certainly seems more foolproof.

[Sam Murdoch]

Mafell is very obviously the best engineered of all these systems. The cost is humbling and I don't know that my woodworking would know the difference but there seems to me no doubt that efficiency and accuracy would be improved. Look at this rig - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvwrUMHu2oc Very impressive but can anyone explain how you would justify the need?

[Steve Keathley]

I have the Dewalt and it is fantastic. I have had no problem at all aligning the tracks in the few instances I have had to join them. Operation and cuts are very smooth. I'm sure the others are great as well, but it's my go to tool for cutting down sheet stock.

Best tool invention since the framing square. I love it.

[Julie Moriarty]

In reality, because the inaccuracy is probably not a big deal for most cuts or most woodworkers, then really all you have to do is just periodically check your butt joint to verify that it is giving you reasonable results.

The problem is inaccurate cuts can compound themselves during the assembly process. By the time you're at the end of the assembly, that tiny error can become a big problem.

It looks to me the Mafell/Bosch solution may have solved the rail coupling weakness. That would get me off the fence if that's true.

[Julie Moriarty]

Mafell is very obviously the best engineered of all these systems. The cost is humbling and I don't know that my woodworking would know the difference but there seems to me no doubt that efficiency and accuracy would be improved. Look at this rig - Very impressive but can anyone explain how you would justify the need?

I like the "push button and watch it go" aspect of the saw. If you're doing onsite production work, that saw might pay for itself quickly. But coming down a bit out of the stratosphere is the Mafell KSS 300. Don't know if the rails can be coupled but you have to love rolling up your rail and placing it in the systainer when it's time to pack up and go. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zra1fiwcbdc

[Rick Fisher]

Really cool having a discussion about Mafell .. I believe the OF-2000 Router from Festool is actually a Mafell router rebranded.. Or the Mafell was a Festool router. Not sure.

I always considered Mafell a timber framing tool company .. Never paid much attention to their track saws.. It does appear that they are the top of the heap in both features and price ..

[Chris Hachet]

I have the Festool track saw and am very happy. I have not had any problems joining the rails but am careful when I do it and check to make certain it is correct. While the rails are important, I think that it is more important that it gives a great cut without splintering even hardwood thin veneer.

Also, the dust collection of the Festool is excellent.
Which is why I think festoon would be the best bang for the buck here

[Will Blick]

Great thread, should become a sticky when done...wee\\\

sorry, original post, BT keyboard batteries die.....

anyway, great web site Julie, nice projects!

Agreed getting Festool rails straight is not very hard, however, they can get crooked... then, you grab em, and whamo, just ruined a few expensive sheets....yep, I ruined some great wood like that, just one accident, as Rick demonstrated, the error continues to double, as you double the distance from the error source. So I bought the 9 ft rail, as its not worth the risk...one less thing to worry about...

nice seeing some of the nice rail selection....love some of the robust forms. Festool rails IMO are a bit flimsy.... too flimsy, they can bow in the middle, so you have to be careful how they are stored. Some of the other rails are of much sturdier design... just another thing to worry about... how important is this? it depends on how much you use the rails and how fast you work, how careless u are, how often you transport the rails, etc. If it was just a rail for cutting, I would opt for the thicker rails to be safe, assuming they have the sizes I need. But in my case, I use the rails with the Festool routers, so I am knee deep in Festool...its a consideration though for others though, as if you plan to use the rails with routers, you can amortize the cost of the rails.

Remember also, the TS75 can easily cut a few sheets at once, with no burn marks due to its extra power and larger blade.... making identical sized pieces a breeze... a very nice feature that is sometimes useful, and not easy to achieve on other cutting methods.

Jointing... long boards are best jointed with single long rails....want to join two 1" thick boards? Cut them together, to assure a perfect joint. Place top board with good side up, bottom board with good side down, after cut, think of a hinge joining the boards where the cuts join...., swing bottom board up, and minor blade angle errors are PERFECTLY cancelled. Of course, if they are small boards, you can try this on a stationary saw, but unless you have a slider, or a huge sled, its hard to keep the boards taught to each other...while on a rail system, this works quite well with underside clamps. Just one of the many amazing benefits of a rail system.

Dust collection....well, IMO, this is Festools claim to fame, they really do design with dust collection as a major priority, and sheets make a ton of dust... oh yeah, and finally a thread that touts Festools low price http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Festool TS dust collection is very good if you use sacrificial board the entire length of the cut...but its not perfect...so I still wear a dust mask.

So how valuable rails are to you, depends on what you use them for...if its construction grade cuts, these high end rails are overkill, as others have pointed out, many cheaper alternatives. I have a Bosch Circ. saw and some end clamp rails for Construction cuts...I would not risk damaging my Festool system on construction grade cuts.

The other major benefit as I see it.... space. With the multi use MFT, you can have a TS, Radial Arm Saw, a sliding TS, all in one tool, when finished with the cuts, it now becomes an assembly table. I can see why some people rid their TS, as the foot print is huge considering the space required on inlet and outlet side for moving material. This is also Festools trademark, multi use, easy fold and and transport, or put in corner out of the way. Of course, if you are cutting sheets all day, this would be ideal... so how often you use the equipment also influences the value of the system to each user.

[Matt Meiser]

I bought the long Festool rail, but before I did I used 2 55" rails and never had a problem joining them. That Betterly thing is way overkill. Any straight edge can be used to align them in seconds. My experience was that the sheet I was about to cut up would have a straight edge--usually beat up, but straight.

[Tom Ewell]

I kinda like the idea of a clamped down alignment jig holding the rails while flipping and snugging up the connectors on both sides of the rail. Looks like the Betterley thing would slip into the short rail pocket of the case, too. Can easily amortize the cost of one over the next couple of jobs which is a lot quicker than doing the same with a big rail purchase.

[Joe Adams]

I resisted buying the Betterley for too long because of the price which is ironic considering the ridiculous amount of money I have paid for my Festools.

I always carefully joined my rails while balanced on a long straight edge (Stabila Level) and figured who needs another jig when I already have a proven method. Then one day, I didn't bring my level with me to the jobsite and realized I needed an easier method.

The Betterley is just as accurate if not more so and a whole lot faster. It's small so I can keep it on hand with my rails. Frankly, I used to dread the joining process but now it's a snap and my Stabila can stay safely in its case until it is needed to do its real job. It's been money well spent in my book.

I really don't understand this whole concern with loss of accuracy when making rips with two joined rails. It's never been a problem for me and I do most of my work in stain grade. The truth is my track saw makes straighter rips than my Unisaw.

[John Bailey]

I've got the EZ Smart rails set up with a Makita saw. I like the robustness of the system and the ability to use any saw. I've had no alignment problems.

I use it for all kinds of cuts, but I especially like the ability to straight line rough-sawn lumber and easily cutting non-parallel cuts. I've got an Alaskan Chainsaw Mill so I've got lots of rough cut lumber and the EZ system works perfect for giving me a straight edge. I'm rebuilding a classic Herreshoff sailboat. The ability to easily cut odd shapes for that project is a godsend.

My Dewalt radial arm saw replaced my table saw decades ago. My EZ system is slowly replacing my radial arm saw.

John

[Mike Cutler]

I bought the long Festool rail, but before I did I used 2 55" rails and never had a problem joining them. That Betterly thing is way overkill. Any straight edge can be used to align them in seconds. My experience was that the sheet I was about to cut up would have a straight edge--usually beat up, but straight.


Matt
I think if a person did not have a good, known, straight edge, that would be a prudent possibility and investment. Having a 6' Starrett Machine Rule, I don't think I have a need for it. I do however like the alignment checking fixture, that would be easy to make. One thing I don't see, is that this alignment tool satisfies all of Julie's prerequisites.
It does the initial alignment of two rails, or even multiple rails just fine. Once the co-joined rails are moved however, it's back to one of Julie's initial concerns. That being, maintaining an accurate straight edge during multiple work activities, while moving the rails around and out of the way during the workflow process.


I'm not a cabinet maker, nor do I claim to be one. I don't do wood working for a living, so indulge me in a question asked out of ignorance.

Do any of the cabinet makers here on the board, go straight from any track saw system to final assembly?
It seems that everyone is using the systems to perform an initial breakdown of cabinet ply, and then running the panels through a table saw, or they have a mega bucks panel saw that is doing the initial work.
While I have a Festool TS 75, my actual intended use for it is not really breaking down sheet goods, although I will be using it for that. It's to perform straight line rips on heavy material, and I need the depth of cut, because my EZ rails limit the depth by design. I work alone, so it will also add a safety factor.

[Joe Adams]

Mike,

I am a highly trained professional! :rolleyes:

I just completed a project where I did all the cuts on 10 sheets of plywood with my Festool TS55. For rips I used two joined rails and then took them apart for cross cuts. There was a good bit of back and forth so the Betterley was a godsend. I work to a max gap of 1/32 and generally no gap at all and have no problem doing that with a tracksaw using joined rails.

I moved the joined rails a lot and didn't worry about checking them each time. When I pick up a joined rail, I use both hands on either side of the joint and set it on the floor or against the wall until I get the next sheet up on my cutting table. No big deal.

I would normally use my Delta Unisaw with a 52" fence and infeed/outfeed supports but these cabinets were 3' by 7' and it was just easier to do everything onsite. When I use my tracksaw in combination with my tablesaw, there is no need to rough cut with the tracksaw and finish cut with the tablesaw. They perform equally well.

The big difference I found in exclusively using a tracksaw as opposed to a tablesaw is that the process was slower and you had to be careful to achieve repeatability in your cuts.

I often buy S2S lumber and always use my tracksaw with joined rails to establish the first straight edge. This is one of the system's most valuable benefits in my opinion.

I've even done glue ups with boards cut with a tracksaw and I have a Powermatic helical head jointer!

Does a tracksaw give you laser accuracy? No but most woodworkers (myself included) don't achieve that kind accuracy from stationary tablesaws either.

[Mac McQuinn]

Joe,
What is the minimal width you can start with on S2S w/ a T-55 TS? I quite often work w/ narrow materials in Boatbuilding and wonder if the T-55 would benefit me.
Thanks
Mac





I often buy S2S lumber and always use my tracksaw with joined rails to establish the first straight edge. This is one of the system's most valuable benefits in my opinion.

[Tom Ewell]

I'm not a cabinet maker, nor do I claim to be one. I don't do wood working for a living, so indulge me in a question asked out of ignorance.
Do any of the cabinet makers here on the board, go straight from any track saw system to final assembly?

I make the occasional cabinet and do not depend solely on the track saw unless the unit parts exceed the limits of my stationeries which includes the MFT.

Where I do depend on accuracy is on site situations. While I've not particularly had trouble with rail alignment, I do like the idea of initially coupling the rails with something like the Betterley, a third hand if you will and if something goes amiss, it offers a quick fix.

The potential for the joined rails to misalign during use is certainly there but similarly to inadvertently bumping the fence off on a table saw, it is all part of the process. Awareness is the key, nothing is idiot proof (I can definitely testify to that).

[Will Blick]

Is this Betterley connector still made? Not on Betterleys web site, or any ww web site from Google searches?

[Sam Murdoch]

Joe,
What is the minimal width you can start with on S2S w/ a T-55 TS? I quite often work w/ narrow materials in Boatbuilding and wonder if the T-55 would benefit me.
Thanks
Mac

I've been using my track saw this week to taper (among other things) some ceiling pieces on a 38' Yawl I am working on. The stock is 3/8" thick x 2-3/4" wide and my tapers have been from 7/8" to the full width. The secret to ripping on narrow stock is to have enough extra material to completely fill the width of the guide rail (at least - more is better) so that the rail is completely supported to the correct thickness and that the piece being cut is snuggly supported on the non cut edge by the remaining stock.

Clamping can be an issue but there are usually ways to hold the rail tight even when using the clamps is not practical. (98% of the time I use clamps no matter that the rails are non slip. I just don't want to risk trashing my work for some unexpected distractions or oversight on my part.) The most important is to make certain that the narrow stock being cut is held securely and this could mean adding a sacrificial stop at the exit end so that the cut board is not pushed along as you are ripping. If the support boards under the rail can be screwed down to the table so that those pieces (or piece) don't move than the issue of clamping the rail is not that critical.

In this case I have plenty of ceiling stock but if need be I could have used a piece of 3/8" ply or planed some odd boards to the correct thickness. Also best to be working on a table not just stretched between a couple of saw horses. This is ALWAYS the case when using the track saw - work on a fully supported flat surface.

Terminology note - in boat building the "ceiling" is the inside of the hull - the sides - whereas what we would normally call the ceiling is the "overhead".

[Tom Ewell]

Is this Betterley connector still made? Not on Betterleys web site, or any ww web site from Google searches?
I haven't picked up one yet but I understand that it may take a phone call to order. Hopefully they still do make them, if not, might have to come up with a homebrew thingy using some milled alum. bar and cam clamps.

[Julie Moriarty]

Matt
I think if a person did not have a good, known, straight edge, that would be a prudent possibility and investment. Having a 6' Starrett Machine Rule, I don't think I have a need for it. I do however like the alignment checking fixture, that would be easy to make. One thing I don't see, is that this alignment tool satisfies all of Julie's prerequisites.
It does the initial alignment of two rails, or even multiple rails just fine. Once the co-joined rails are moved however, it's back to one of Julie's initial concerns. That being, maintaining an accurate straight edge during multiple work activities, while moving the rails around and out of the way during the workflow process.

Mike, you have stated well where I am on this whole issue, only in about 1/10 the words. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/shake_zps3a215ad5.gif

Personally, it seems counterproductive to have a rail joining system that won't keep the rails straight under normal use. Normal use should include moving the joined rails around to make different cuts. It looks like the Mafell/Bosch connector achieves that better than the Festool/Makita connectors and there's no need to flip the rails to tighten the second connector from the bottom (which creates the need to re-check alignment). If the Bosch version was sold in the US, I would probably buy it.

But there's another factor that is very important to me - dust collection. As time passes, my reaction to dust has worsened. After I made just one 8' cut on 1/4" sapele plywood with MDF core the other day, I could feel my sinuses and ears fill. (My doctor suggested I give up woodworking http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/eusa_snooty_zpsbe980426.gif) So before buying the Bosch, I would have to know dust collection effectiveness. But there's no word when, or even if, Bosch will release their track saw in the US. For right now, that pretty much leaves Festool and Makita as the only financially viable choices (for me) and neither have a connector system that impresses me. Maybe that's something one can improved upon by machining longer connectors, or redesigning a better connector, or just buying the Betterley. Since the Betterley is about 1/3 the price of Festool's 106" rail, that would be the way I'd go.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6F97WFYwkU

[Jamie Buxton]

...Personally, it seems counterproductive to have a rail joining system that won't keep the rails straight under normal use. Normal use should include moving the joined rails around to make different cuts.
..... Since the Betterley is about 1/3 the price of Festool's 106" rail, that would be the way I'd go.


These two statements seem contradictory. As I understand the Betterley device, it only does initial alignment of the two rails. After that, you rely on the Festool bars to maintain the alignment.


BTW, I agree with your first statement. That's why I gave up on two Festool rails and bought a long one. I have a long straightedge, and I could align the two rails before I tightened up the Festool screws -- just like the Betterley clamp. However, a nine-foot-long object gets banged around in the shop. Eventually I'd find that the joined rail was no longer straight -- usually by finding that cut parts didn't fit correctly.

[Will Blick]

Jamie, fully agreed, I learned the hard way, hence why I have the 106" rail, its cheaper than crooked rails can potentially produce. I used to be the one who thought, "it's never been a problem for me"...till it finally happened, gosh was I peeeved. I also fully agree, and thought about this after watching the Betterly video... the device leaves a fixed gap between the two rails... this is the only way you can overcome non perfect 90 cuts on the rail ends from the factory, or future dings, etc. However, leaving that gap ....mmmmm... rail goes down on end too hard, the force can slightly move one of the ends closer vs. the other. Remember, these rails receive a lot of vibration when being used, things can "give". Anyway, like all things ww, it all depends on how studious you are, how often you need the different size rails, budgets, etc. Obviously, a single rail is the ideal choice if money was a non issue. Sounds like that Beverley device pays for nearly half of a long rail... could not find price, or anyone selling it. It appears it would be ideal for fast set up.... as long as you only use that set up for a short time and break it down, not much risk...its when you leave the rails connected... the risk becomes greater...

as for cutting tapers... agreed on above.... you need to have lots of extra material...if the taper piece is very thin, its not so easy keeping the taper piece still while cutting.... nothing beats a taper jig on a TS for this...but for looong pieces, well, the rail system is once again, your best chance. Overall, I have had good luck with cutting edge trim tapers, but it took some very clever set up jigs before my system produced consistent tapers.

[Matt Meiser]

The other reason for a long rail and a short rail. Normal usage is to rip parts then crosscut. Continually assembling and disassembling the rails is a drag, so eventually you'll want more. A 55" rail and an 106" rail is cheaper than 3 55" rails and connectors.

[scott vroom]

$800-1,000 for basically a skil saw and aluminum strips? Really??? You folks must have cash to burn. I don't get it. I build cabinet carcasses on a 10" cabinet saw with 37" rip capacity. I don't understand the attraction of blowing a grand just to knock down sheet goods when it can be done on a TS.

OK, let 're rip :)

[Tom Ewell]

Dang Scott, good point, it's just a pain loading up my main saw and dust collector onto the truck all of the time :)
Track kits are a just little ez'er to haul around.

[John A langley]

Has anybody seen Festool's Rapid Clamp system for the tracks? I bought one today but I haven't tried it but it looks like it will be a whole lot easier than the old clamps. It's #489790. It's $48

The majority of my tracksaw use is on the job

[scott vroom]

Tom, don't you have a mobile base on your TS?

[Julie Moriarty]

These two statements seem contradictory. As I understand the Betterley device, it only does initial alignment of the two rails. After that, you rely on the Festool bars to maintain the alignment.

In the video he shows moving the joined rails with the Betterley attached. So, yeah, you'd have to reattach the Betterley every time you moved the joined rails. But you could do so without concern about losing the alignment. Six of one, I guess. I wonder how well the Mafell/Bosch connector holds?

If you use a straight-edge to do the alignment, when you're flipping the rail over to secure the bottom connector, does the alignment hold or do you have to do the straight-edge alignment after the first connector is secured?

[Joe Adams]

A tracksaw performs best on wider stock but I have cut narrow stock by putting two pieces side by side to support the track. I just put some blue painters tape on them to hold the boards in place which will keep the outside board from moving during the cut. If I'm cutting up on sawhorses, I use a clamp on each end of the track. If I'm cutting on the floor (with a sheet of foam board underneath) I don't bother with clamps as the track is surprisingly non-slip.

I have the rapid-clamp system and use it for some situations. I really like it but the trick is not to overtighten or you will bow the track.

The Betterley is still available but you have to call them to place an order. They're a small machine shop and haven't caught up with the modern world. The older gentleman I spoke with was very pleasant and I received it within a week.

When you do the straight edge joining technique, you stand the rails on edge along the straight edge so that you can tighten both sides. It's a pain to keep them balanced and aligned just right while you tighten everything down which is why I bought the Betterley.

Joining two rails has worked well for me for years. (I do not reattach the Betterley every time I move the rails.) I like this method because the shorter rails are more easily moved and stored. If you have nagging concerns and plenty of room, just buy a long rail and quit worrying about it.

[Mac McQuinn]

Sam,
Thanks for all the very useful information.
Mac

[Jamie Buxton]

$800-1,000 for basically a skil saw and aluminum strips? Really??? You folks must have cash to burn. I don't get it. I build cabinet carcasses on a 10" cabinet saw with 37" rip capacity. I don't understand the attraction of blowing a grand just to knock down sheet goods when it can be done on a TS.

OK, let 're rip :)

Horsing a full sheet of MDF accurately through a cabinet saw takes more strength than I have. Adding lots of infeed and outfeed and sidesupport tables would help a great deal, but then the whole shebang would eat most of my shop. In contrast, a stowed track saw takes almost no space, and it requires almost no effort to use.

[Mike Cutler]

Horsing a full sheet of MDF accurately through a cabinet saw takes more strength than I have. Adding lots of infeed and outfeed and sidesupport tables would help a great deal, but then the whole shebang would eat most of my shop. In contrast, a stowed track saw takes almost no space, and it requires almost no effort to use.

Exactly!
I'm a pretty strong guy. I, and my lower back, just don't want to do it anymore.
I had to cut a piece of 2" thick padauk, 16' long and 34" wide. No way I was horsing that onto a table saw. I barely got it off the cart and onto two sawhorses as it was.

Joe Adams
Thank you for the insight. Hearing how someone that does it for a living, helps those of us that don't.

[Will Blick]

ahhh, blow out your back just once with sheet goods and you never forget it...
Plus, many of us, often work alone, and a full sheet is awkward to handle even for a strong big guy, which I am also, with a very finicky spine..

[Julie Moriarty]

You folks must have cash to burn. I don't get it.

That's probably what Roy Underhill would say about your table saw. ;)

But really, gone are the days that I would attempt to wrangle a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" down into the basement and then rearrange my entire shop in the hopes of being able to squeeze out enough room to break down sheet goods on the table saw.

BTW, I ordered the Festool TS55 REQ and an extra 55" rail. Now I get to see for myself the realities of joining two rails. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/surrender_zpsb93185b9.gif

[Rick Christopherson]

BTW, I ordered the Festool TS55 REQ and an extra 55" rail. Now I get to see for myself the realities of joining two rails. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/surrender_zpsb93185b9.gifIf you still can, you may want to change your order to a 55 and 75 inch rail. It gives you more versatility than having two rails of the same length. With two 55 inch rails, all you get is 55 and 110. But if you have a 55 and 75, then you get 55, 75, and 130.

I don't recall if you've read any of my Supplemental manuals or not, but you'll want to download the TS55 REQ Supplemental manual (http://www.waterfront-woods.com/festool/TS55REQ.pdf) for your new saw. Even the most advanced users discover that these manuals tell them something that they hadn't previously known. That even includes some advice, such as above, about choosing what guide rails to buy.

[Joe Adams]

If you still can, you may want to change your order to a 55 and 75 inch rail. It gives you more versatility than having two rails of the same length. With two 55 inch rails, all you get is 55 and 110. But if you have a 55 and 75, then you get 55, 75, and 130.

That's good advice although I find that two 55's are perfect for ripping 4x8 sheets of plywood with a TS55. A combined 130" of track seems like it might be almost too long for this task unless you have a TS75 whose larger footprint requires more room.

Of course, a single 55" rail is barely adequate for cross cuts in plywood (without plunging to start) and I've often wished for a 75" rail .

I also have a 42" rail that's handy for ripping base cabinet extended stiles when scribing. I just ordered a 32" rail along with an extra set of connectors today to be able to combine with it to build a "74".

The supplemental manual is worth it's weight in gold. Thanks, Rick!

[michael flay]

One thing I noticed in the Bosch video was the lack of riving knife, when I bought my Ts-55 it came with a 55" rail and I bought two extra 55" rails and connectors and leave it this way and have never had any issues. I probably would have thought about the longer rail but it was around a $100 more than my solution.

[Tom Ewell]

Tom, don't you have a mobile base on your TS?Yeah I do but I only use it to turn the saw a bit so long stock feeds through a window or roll it out of the way for poker night.



For those interested I dropped an email to Betterley today, this is what came back.


You can purchase direct from us, just give us a call (Monday - Friday, 7:30 am - 5: 00 pm central time). Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or need any other information.

Thanks,

Tom Stoffel

Betterley Industries Inc.

PO Box 490518

Blaine, MN 55449

(763) 755-3425 Phone

(800) 871-7516 Phone

(763) 755-5084 Fax

mailto:toms@betterleytools.com

[Will Blick]

Agreed on Rail commentsn above, Rick knows best, thats for SURE, Mr. Festool is his moniker, kudos to all your fine posts Rick.... my $.02 for new Festoolians....
if you get a smaller and larger rail, it's way more versatile.... I use the 32" rail quite often, more than I thought...its OK if two rails are slightly longer than you need for sheet goods, no harm, extra room for saw placement always helpful, but a short rail allows it to fit in places the longer rails are just too cumbersome for cross cuts of smaller pieces...

any price on Betterley? we should do our gang purchase :-) For me, its a luxury item, as I covered most of my bases with Festool rails.. but I am an admitted tool junkie...

julie, beware, Festool is one of the worst slipperly slopes in ww, as many can attest too, including me.... arggggg.

[Tom Ewell]

any price on Betterley?

Sorry, also included in the email from Betterley

our StraightLine Connector, they are $99.

they also sent a pdf flyer for the connector but it was too big to post so here's screen shot

264106

[Rick Christopherson]

Sorry, also included in the email from Betterley

our StraightLine Connector, they are $99.Wow, if it was something that would stay on the track during a cut, that wouldn't be bad. But when all it is doing is acting as a straightedge during connecting, that seems a little ridiculous. For $20, I would rather have a 3-foot level. :rolleyes:

[Will Blick]

But I think the "issue" Betterley is addressing is....
getting the rails straight, then, the ability to... LOCK THEM STRAIGHT, while u then tighten the Festool connector screws....
with a straight edge, the rails are NOT HELD straight when you are tightening the Festool connector screws.
The Festool screws have very coarse threads, which I think is not helpful, as they can bite the rail and twist it the tiniest amounts, as you demonstrated above, we are talking small amounts here, often not visible to the eye.
I have tightened the Festool connector screws and lost my straightness... not every time, but it has happened.
after awhile, you learn to re check with the straight edge, so again, double-checking can be your insurance policy.
So I see this product as an "easier" and potentially more reliable method of "joining" rails. But unfortunately, not a solution to "maintain" straightness, (unfortunately) which was where I had most of my problems the first few years. Too rough moving the rails around...then others would move them, and not realize how sensitive that joint was.

Certainly not mandatory, but if you have employees, it would be one less problem to deal with....

[Will Blick]

Does anyone know the tolerance on the Betterly over the 24"? If it's .001" over 24", it doubles as a decent straight edge. That would be interesting to know... maybe I am trying to justify a purchase here :-)

[Rick Christopherson]

The Festool screws have very coarse threads, which I think is not helpful, as they can bite the rail and twist it the tiniest amounts, as you demonstrated above, ....Nowhere in the video did I demonstrate--or even hint at--such a thing. The comment was that if you over-tighten a setscrew into aluminum, you can dimple (dent) the aluminum. That applies to any piece of aluminum, but some people have a tendency of over-tightening setscrews, and damaging surfaces.

[Will Blick]

Nowhere in the video did I demonstrate--or even hint at--such a thing. The comment was that if you over-tighten a setscrew into aluminum, you can dimple (dent) the aluminum. That applies to any piece of aluminum, but some people have a tendency of over-tightening setscrews, and damaging surfaces.

Rick, I suggest you re-read my post...

You commented on this, which I wrote...

> as you demonstrated above, we are talking "small amounts" here, often not visible to the eye.

I was referring to.... the "small amounts" of error at the rail joint, which is magnified as the rails get longer... it was YOU who stated this, and DEMONSTRATED such in a numerical example earlier in this thread, right? I attempted to give you credit for such, but as they say, no good deed goes.."...." anyway, below is the part of your #26 post, in case you forgot, or others jumped into this thread late in the game.....

> The potential problem is that you are trying to create an accurate 10-foot (or more) straightedge that is controlled by a 7-inch wide butt joint. Simply having a 0.010" skew at the butt joint translates to 0.080" skew at the end of the 55" rail. (If decimal is hard to picture, that's 1/128" error causing a 1/16" skew.)

And yes, in addition, its easy to over tighten the screws, dimpling the rails. Anyway, hope this clears up what I thought was quite obvious...

[Rick Christopherson]

Rick, I suggest you re-read my post... There is a huge difference between commas and periods, and how they impact a sentence. As written, your sentence suggested that I demonstrated that the setscrews were causing the rails to go out of alignment during joining. Based on your followup, it would appear that your single sentence was supposed to be two or more unrelated sentences.

[Will Blick]

IMO, a question would have been appropriate if u found my post confusing.
more importantly, is it clear now???
If not, I will revise my post, create more sentences, then, send to you off-list for approval,
then modify my post accordingly. Fair enuff?

[Will Blick]

For those interested, the Betterley is an impressive straight edge, considering the limited price and multi use. ..... from Betterley

We machine all surfaces of the StraightLine Connector to help insure stability and accuracy, with that said it is aluminum and can be affected by the environment (heat in particular). The CNC machining center we use to machine the Straightline Connector is accurate to plus or minus .0003" over 40", to be safe let's say the straight edge is accurate plus or minus .001".

[Tom Ewell]

Wow, if it was something that would stay on the track during a cut, that wouldn't be bad.
I agree, perhaps Festool ought to get on the stick and figure out a more substantial self aligning connector and market it as accessory for reasonable retrofit for the older models and include it on the new.
Festool offers high quality and excellent customer support but it does come at a fairly high fixed price. When the Bosch does come over to US with its apparent superior connection then the new wave of buyers like Julie just might find it more appealing and go that way.


But when all it is doing is acting as a straightedge during connecting, that seems a little ridiculous. For $20, I would rather have a 3-foot level. :rolleyes:
Yes, that's all it is doing but it also holds firm until the connectors are snugged up on both sides providing the most rigidity before unclamping the straight edge and stressing the joint.
While your $20 level may allow you to set straight the first connector there is a very real potential to misalign during the flip over to get to the second connector, it can be frustrating to find that the alignment got tweaked during a mishandled flip with the need to start over. After the connectors are set, any bumps causing problems are on me, it would just be nice to have the initial setup to be a little more foolproof which the Betterley and Mafell/Bosch solutions seem to provide.

[Will Blick]

Tom, your response to Rick C's post almost reads identical to my comments on Ricks post, I guess great minds think alike :-)

I don't think what u are asking for is possible. No good place to connect to the rail, nearly all surfaces make contact with the saw, or the work piece. After seeing those other rails, maybe Festool has a new rail in the works that is more rigid and has a joining system that can remain affixed. But keep in mind, the cost of the connectors might be so costly, it might make sense to buy a better selection of rails. And if u are careful, and learn to always do a final safety check... the system is pretty good as is....

[Tom Ewell]

Will,
Yeah the system is good, no real complaints here either.

All it might take is modifying of what they use now. It's fairly common practice to use expandable washers to zero play miter slot bars, maybe they can come up with milled reference edge and expand washers to align and setscrew to lock it down.

[Julie Moriarty]

Mafell sells in the US, though the one place I know you can go to to buy Mafell doesn't list their rails. Would the Mafell rail work with Festool, Makita and other brands? If I remember correctly, the Mafell track saw can be used on a Festool rail. If Mafell rails worked with Festool track saws, and the Mafell rail connectors align the track properly and hold it in place, the Mafell rail may be the solution to frustrated Festool owners.

Any UK members who own Mafell or Bosch rails, feel free to comment! (This post is buried so deep maybe a new thread would increase the chance our UK friends would see this?)

[Rick Christopherson]

Julie, forgive me if this comes across the wrong way, but in my opinion, you, Tom, and Will are trying to resolve a problem that really doesn't exist. I am not sure how this thought originated, so I can only speculate. Prior to this thread, I have never heard about anyone being concerned about joining rails. As a matter of fact, Per Swenson (a member here) even has a photograph showing somewhere around 30 to 50 feet of rails being joined together to trim a commercial bar top.

One possible source of this is that for a few years, the Festool Trainers in Las Vegas and Indiana were mistakenly telling students to use the saw itself to straddle the rails while connecting them as a means to set them parallel. When I learned about that procedure several years ago, I contacted the VP and CEO of Festool, and that procedure was immediately withdrawn from the training courses. That procedure didn't do what the trainers thought is was doing, and for that time period, it was resulting in people joining rails with a potential and unknown skew. Unfortunately, unlearning an "officially sanctioned" procedure takes time for that information to be disseminated to the masses, so it took a while for people to learn that it had been pulled from the curriculum.

Even though that procedure got pulled from the curriculum several years ago, some tool owners were still repeating it for a while. As recently as 6 months ago, that procedure was still being re-told by FOG members that had gone through past training classes. It may still be presented on non-Festool forums, but it is no longer presented by forum users that are aware of the proper procedure.

When the trainers re-did their procedures, they added the need to put a gap between the rails. I disagree with that need, but it is not worth expending my connections to Festool management to get that pulled from training. It doesn't hurt (maybe), but it is not necessary either, and you will not find it described in my manuals. (One poster in this thread commented on it, or I wouldn't have even brought it up.) Actually, in hindsight, maybe that was the reason that poster was having problems. I don't condone the gap, and quite possibly it is the reason why the poster commented on having his rails get knocked out of true with usage. If that is the case, then I will kick it up to management to get it removed from the curriculum.

Regarding the Betterly device, I wouldn't care if someone wanted to buy it, but in my expert opinion, it is a gimmick. It plays on marketing hype, and I personally do not like any product that uses that means for sales. It means that you still have to carry around a separate component, but instead of being a $20 level, you now have to use a $100 jig that serves less functionality to what is already in your tool kit.

Regarding the Bosch saw, I am a huge fan of Bosch. I like the tools that they make. The VP of Festool USA even came from Bosch before taking the job at Festool. (To the best of my knowledge, the Bosch and Festool companies are friends with each other.) However, there are some things I noticed about their version of the saw that leaves me with questions.

First off, based solely on the video you posted earlier, I suspect that the connecting bar for their rails is actually plastic. I don't know if that is true (but I suspect it is), then it will not be as accurate as it would appear. It will likely be less accurate that the steel connecting bars most other tool manufacturers use. If it is plastic, as I assume, then it would have far more flex than the steel bars used by Festool, Makita, and DeWalt. It would give you a false sense of security.

Secondly, I also noticed a few minutes previous in the video, that you cannot use off-the-shelf clamps with the Bosch rails. Festool and Makita both designed their T-slots to accept standard aftermarket clamps. DeWalt slightly hosed-the-pooch on this one, and their T-slot has too narrow of a throat for a standard bar to fit, but otherwise it is similar. For the Bosch, however, the leg must be very thin, and is completely proprietary. So you cannot use any existing clamps that you already own with your Bosch rails.

[Will Blick]

> are trying to resolve a problem that really doesn't exist.

Really? Never? Did you read the posts? I think we have all characterized the slight shortcoming very fairly...and by you discounting it, IMO is a dis service to newbs to the Festool rail system. The big issue is not whether you need a Beverley or not....we all agree you can set the rails straight without one...although the Beverley makes the job a bit easier and prevents the rails from going non straight when flipping over, to tighten connector screws.....but that's a secondary issue...the primary issue you turned a blind eye to (even though it was mentioned several times) is how the joined rails can loose straightness from being banged around, or set down too hard. Like most problems that can occur, u never think much about it, TILL IT HAPPENS TO YOU. And just because something did not happen to one user, does NOT assure it should not happen to all users! There is variance in how hard the screws are set, how hard the rails get banged around, etc. I feel Toms suggestion was a good one... i.e. a system of joining that is better suited to BOTH creating straightness and more importantly maintaining straightness. In my eyes, it's a common sense product improvement....not mandatory, but surely a welcomed improvement. Julie was simply wondering if the other systems better accomplished these tasks, and whether they would be Festool compatible. If I was not sooo knee deep with Festool Rails, I would be curious of the same...

Bottom line, I am starting to think you have Green Blood :eek:

[Rick Christopherson]

Bottom line, I am starting to think you have Green Blood :eek:No. I could care less what tools you buy or use in your shop. It doesn't line my pockets either way. But as an engineer, it does bother me to see poeple getting sucked into misinformation. If you want to chase down that rabbit hole, that is your decision to make, and I have simply provided you with the information to assist in making that decision. You are free to take or ignore that information as you see fit.

[John A langley]

It seems to me that we are beating a dead horse. First off, why would you want to buy one brand of saw and mother brand rails? It sounds to me like asking for trouble. There is not a tool or system out there that does not have its drawbacks or its positive sides. I have a limited amount of Festool equipment and it does what I expect it to do. Just like safety is the end users responsibility so is using and understanding our equipment to get the most out of it. After all we are working with wood not building a space shuttle.

[Julie Moriarty]

Rick, I don't want to get into a big debate on this but I have read more posts from owners of Festool rails that said the connector issue is very real than I have saying it isn't. So you describing this as "a problem that really doesn't exist" is opinion, not fact. There are too many who disagree with you.

This whole thing started for me when I was contemplating purchasing the TS 55 REQ. I happened across some reviews on the Festool connectors, and they weren't very good. So I took the questions to FOG in hopes of gaining better knowledge. A lot of members there said they have problems just like some here have posted. So the problem seems very real, at least from where I'm sitting. I will soon know first hand.

I also think you've done Bosch (and Mafell, as in guilt by association) a disservice assuming their connector is plastic. You know what they say about ASSUME. :rolleyes:

Now if you have some foolproof method for joining the rails in such a way that they won't come out of alignment either during the tightening of the connector screws or in the process of normal work flow, without handling them with kid gloves, please share that knowledge. I think it would be much appreciated.

[Steve Keathley]

It seems to me that we are beating a dead horse. First off, why would you want to buy one brand of saw and mother brand rails? It sounds to me like asking for trouble. There is not a tool or system out there that does not have its drawbacks or its positive sides. I have a limited amount of Festool equipment and it does what I expect it to do. Just like safety is the end users responsibility so is using and understanding our equipment to get the most out of it. After all we are working with wood not building a space shuttle.
That's very well said. We are dealing with a medium that is subject to expansion, contraction, and warping.

As I posted earlier, I have the Dewalt system. I know Dewalt is not in Festool's class, but it works extremely well, even when joining rails.

Track saws are a great tool and there are some really good ones out there. Get one and use it for what it's good at. Don't try to make it something that its not. Just my .02.

[Mike Goetzke]

No. I could care less what tools you buy or use in your shop. It doesn't line my pockets either way. But as an engineer, it does bother me to see poeple getting sucked into misinformation. If you want to chase down that rabbit hole, that is your decision to make, and I have simply provided you with the information to assist in making that decision. You are free to take or ignore that information as you see fit.

To help me out Rick have you ever been compensated by Festool in any way? (edited - sorry, I think anyone that has affiliation with or has been compensated by any of the manufacturers mentioned here should mention so before posting.)

Thanks

[Will Blick]

Mike, if you follow Ricks posts, he makes some Festool accessory products. He also re writes many of the Festool manuals. Festool is greatful he is team Green for sure. And remember, this comes from a guy who owns a LOT of Festools, I love their products.

Julie summarized this well.... no one is blowing anything out of proportion here...as Rick continues to suggest. I agree with Julie, seems Rick is ignoring what many of have written, and prefers to work off ASSumptions and his personal experiences. The ol', if it doesn't happen to me, it shouldn't happen to anyone else. Common thinking on forums...

The beauty of a forum is....we can share our experiences on these products. In your case Julie, u have been well schooled so by this thread, therefore, a high likelihood u will avoid these small errors that can creep into play. As all of us have continually said, overall, the system works well. Armed with this information, you will be cognizant of using a straight edge, careful flipping, tighten screws, but don't over tighten, then, re check your joining job with straight edge. Then, u will be careful when moving joined rails around. If you drop the rails, or set it down on the end too hard, you will remember to re check with a straight edge before using. So IMO, this thread has served you well, and might save you from ruining some good wood, if the "gotcha" catches you too. Had I read a thread like this when I got my rails, ahhhh, I prob. would have avoided my few "gotcha's". I was aware these issues, but did not take it seriously enough, so I got burnt a few times. Live n learn.

And as for the Beverley, as an engineer myself, I think the product is well thought out. The product was designed for a reason...the reason, is primarily what this thread was about. Which I accept u are in denial about. Like all tools, many are somewhat redundant. We don't need Festool rails and circ. saws, we could do the same with lower priced straight edges and saws... but I never see you apply the "what do you need it for" premise to Festools.

[Rick Christopherson]

Now if you have some foolproof method for joining the rails in such a way that they won't come out of alignment either during the tightening of the connector screws or in the process of normal work flow, without handling them with kid gloves, please share that knowledge. I think it would be much appreciated.Well, but I do, and it is shown in both the video and the manual. However, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force them.........:confused:

The tool owners that you hear complaining are those that think they know so much that they have never read the manual. That's not unusual. I'm the same type of person myself. :eek: I would never think of reading a tool manual either. But those same people assume that the manuals I write for Festool are just the run-of-the-mill junk manuals that they normally throw in the trash. The only time they think of downloading my manuals are after things blow up on them. And then they suddenly realize that they should have read them a long time ago. It is a reoccurring theme.

In case you didn't previously know, the manuals I write are owned by Festool and reviewed by all departments within Festool (including training, service, & legal) before getting published. They are not just slapped together by some schmuck playing around in his basement workshop. What separates them from the typical garbage of any other tool manual is that they are written by someone that was first-and-foremost a woodworker and engineer, that later changed careers to be a technical writer. Before I became a full-time technical writer, I was also Associate Editor with American Woodworker Magazine, and freelance writer for several other magazines. I actually took all of that Woodworking Magazine experience with me when I became a technical writer as my normal day-job (Festool manuals--were and still are--just a hobby). That magazine background is part of the reason why my manuals are so unique in the industry. Nevertheless, many tool manufacturers have taken notice and are now copying the style and content I created so many years ago.

It is not just Festool either. The DeWalt DW7467 sliding tablesaw accessory instructions were rewritten from my instructions that I created while reviewing that new product for The Woodworker's Journal a decade ago. I also write instruction manuals and create woodworking plans for Rockler products too. It is just part of what I do. The one that is REALLY out there, is the Kreg K2000 jig, which is based on the design that I freely gave to Craig Sommerfeld one day when he visited the American Woodworker Magazine workshop. Their original plans were 180 degrees from what you can buy today. I redesigned that product before Craig even got on the plane to head home that night.

So as I said before; you have the choice: You can blow off what I say, or you can use it to help guide you in the decisions you make along the way.

[John A langley]

Julie. I see in post #65 that you bought the Festoolmans an extra 55" rail. If the comments are so bad on joining the rails and obviously you think you can't handle it why didn't you go the extra mile and buy one of the two longer rails?

[John A langley]

Also you can all argue yourselves into being right but I don't see anything of value to be added to this thread anymore

[Jim Neeley]

An interesting feature I saw while surfing on from the Mafell link is a feature they offer where you hook your dust extractor up to the rail on a wye and it vacuum-attaches the rail to the wood. For the most who will be using the saw with a DE, this would seem like a pretty cool function.

[David Weaver]

To help me out Rick have you ever been compensated by Festool in any way? (edited - sorry, I think anyone that has affiliation with or has been compensated by any of the manufacturers mentioned here should mention so before posting.)

Thanks

I think so, too, even if it is free goods- but questions get missed when too much effort is spent pumping air into a horn.

Actually, it is a really irritating thing all over the internet, with all of the "this is a hobby" to "review" sites that never clarify whether or not they are compensated or get free tools. While it's not a requirement on here, it is dead clear that the FTC has described it as legally required for blogs to disclose prominently (not in the fine print) when the compensation is only in free goods.

[Will Blick]

David, I don't know if Rick is compensated by Festool, it wouldn't surprise me, and I wouldn't even care, as he does them a GREAT service... (notice the nice things I often say about you Rick, even when you remain confrontational, u might consider trying the same once in awhile to soften the threads tone). But I do agree David, it would be honorable to disclose such, or at a bear min. addressing your question, and its annoying to be ignored.

Rick, I don't understand your long post justifying and advertising your excellent knowledge, education and technical writing skills. Did anyone question any of your virtues in this thread? I could not find such references anywhere? And who here ever suggested that your manuals are the typical junky manuals that come with most products??? Where did that come from? Seems u are justifying something for no apparent reason....or u, just completely drifted off topic because your posts were being fairly challenged, so you felt a deflection was in order. Anyway, for what its worth, I have read your manuals, and they are by far, some of the best I have ever read. So if Festool compensates you with some tools, I don't feel you need to hide such. I would guess Festool is getting the better end of the deal.

> So as I said before; you have the choice: You can blow off what I say, or you can use it to help guide you in the decisions you make along the way.

Rick, u might want to re-read what you wrote above... it has the flavor of.... I KNOW WHATS BEST, so you would be foolish to listen to other opinions / positions. Anyway, no surprise, as this is an occasional theme in some threads you participate in. It usually happens in the threads you are challenged the least bit. I think the SMC participants have been very fair in this thread.

Oh, and just for the record...... you wrote...

> The tool owners that you hear complaining are those that think they know so much that they have never read the manual. That's not unusual.

I have taken several Festool factory classes, read the manuals, read your manuals and watched many youtube videos. Hey, no apology required....just thought u would like to know = this appears to have been another "assumption", another recurring theme.

[Tom Ewell]

Julie. I see in post #65 that you bought the Festoolmans an extra 55" rail. If the comments are so bad on joining the rails and obviously you think you can't handle it why didn't you go the extra mile and buy one of the two longer rails?

Most, if not all of the comments, at least in this thread, have been positive with regard to the alignment of the rails during use, including my own and Julie should be quite satisfied with her selection considering her situation.

I've been riding the same Festool rails for eight years and have rarely had alignment problems but it has popped up on occasion, usually during assembly in less than ideal conditions and I've managed to catch the error before the cut so far...thus no harm no foul other than fumbling around with reassembly.

I also realize that the assembled rail system is a precision setup and I handle it as such, just as one would take extra care not to drop a Starrett combo square on a concrete floor.

The argument for the longer rails is valid if one is concerned about the alignment and inconvenience of joined rails but in my case it would be a PITA to store one in the shop and (safely) transport it to the jobsite for that occasional long rip. My 32 and two 55's have served me well, I can sling the rail case over my shoulder grab the 'tainer n' CT and slog my way to the project. At the end of the day I can pack it all in the back of the truck and be on my merry way.

If I can add the Betterley to my case to avoid fumbling around with a loose straight edge or level while precisely locking-in the alignment until the joint is completely set then great, I'll head down that rabbit hole and put the savings over a long rail into the kitty and add something to the system like the parallel guides.

BTW
Rick, thanks for the input, it is actually appreciated and gosh, I had no idea that using a tracksaw required so much training, even for those of us who do read the manuals. :)

[Ole Anderson]

As a new tracksaw owner (Grizz) and an engineer and one who has worked with aluminum extrusions for years, having had nearly a dozen dies made for custom aluminum extrusions, I have a few comments. Obviously I can only speak to the Grizz tracks, however I ASSUME other tracks align in a similar manner. There are two factors to aligning the tracks, first making sure the long edges line up so the saw doesn't bump or catch when moving through the joint, and secondly making sure the saw will track properly and cut a line that is straight and not deflect as you pass the joint in the two joined tracks. I was a bit surprised when I first looked at the tracks to see how wide the extrusion was. Then I realized that was a good thing as parallel alignment of two tracks relied on the butt joint not on the connector. (Yes the connector in the Grizz is steel). On a new Grizz track you can see that the end of the track has been cut by a saw. And you can believe they use a production (likely automated with pnuematic hold downs) aluminum cutoff saw, not a 12" Dewalt chop saw with a thin blade. If you butt the ends together so there is NO gap and with a 4 foot or better straightedge you are able to determine the edges align perfectly, you are good to go. The only way you will get a future misalignment is if you don't butt the ends tightly or if the ends get nicked so they cannot butt properly. If the ends become nicked a light pass with a file or sanding block will remove the protrusions that prevent a tight butt joint. The connector just holds the ends together, it does not provide alignment other than to make sure the saw doen't catch as it passes the joint. The reason they are able to get perfect alignment is that the ends are cut with the same cutoff saw alignment. It wouldn't make a difference if the ends were cut at 89 degrees. they will still align as the track can only be assembled one way and any out-of-90-degree alignment will be cancelled out. So unless the tracks were cut on either different saws or the saw was misaligned between cuts, you will be good to go. That is why the first thing you need to do with a pair of new tracks is to check alignment. If they are good from the get-go and you don't bugger up the ends and always check for a tight butt joint, I can't see how the tracks will magically get out of alignment.

[Julie Moriarty]

John, for the record I didn't say I couldn't handle the process of aligning them and keeping them aligned. As far as the negative comments, I'll have to see for myself and just live with it if it's a pain to keep aligned. But if there's a better way, I would have expected Festool to find it and implement it. Has Bosch/Mafell found one? I don't know, but I'd like to. And maybe others would too. I see no problem with having an open discussion on this.

FWIW, I made the purchase I did primarily because dust collection is priority #1 for me and based on reviews and other information I found, the TS 55 REQ was the best choice for me, for what's available in the US.

[Art Mann]

This thread brings to mind a phrase I heard years ago, "analysis paralysis".

[Will Blick]

>This thread brings to mind a phrase I heard years ago, "analysis paralysis"

in my case, "lack of analysis" cost me prob. $500 in wasted wood from some non straight cuts. Hopefully this thread will be read for many years, and others can benefit. Although it is true that in some cases, too much analysis can be a detriment.... IMO, this thread is not an example of that adage. Even after 5+ years with my rails, this thread has reinforced my "check it again" policy, as well as gained knowledge of a new product that I will prob. implement into my work. So I am grateful for having forums like this and gaining from all the great contributors who share their experiences (I don't like learning EVERYTHING the hard way) Like all internet debates, discussions, ego battles, etc., there will always be the "we are discussing nothing", " too much analysis", posts that pop up like gophers on a golf course...., it always makes me wonder, if the thread is too deep, too misdirected for your taste, why are you reading it? Is someone forcing you? Why not, move on.. ???

Ole, I agree that perfect butt cuts on the rail would be the ultimate solution, in theory. Surprisingly this issue has not surfaced yet. Certainly Festool has the ability to make near perfect 90 deg. cuts on their rails. However, I think the weak link for this premise is .... the rails are very thin alum., therefore they are sensitive to slight movements from heat, physical stresses, dents n dings, etc. So while a perfect 90 deg cut might be a perfect solution right off the assembly line, I doubt it will be reliable over the life span of the rail. But this could easily explain why some people feel the straightness issue, is as a "non issue" while others have been occasionally effected by it. If you are fortunate, and your rails have perfect 90 deg butt cuts, well, those perfect butt joints serve as both a perfect alignment method, AND, insurance against loosing straightness. Of course, that might be the case today, but not in a few years.

Julie, I am in your camp, dust collection is high on my priority list, hence my love of the Festool design premise, making dust collection a super high priority from the start. I try to cut my sheets outside when possible. when I cut them in the shop, I don't even use my CT dust collector, instead I connect the TS to my 5hp cyclone for added suction, and it works superb. I am sure you will love the TS system...and no worries if you don't, as Festool offers a 30 day no questions return policy, which is a highly confident policy.

[John A langley]

Julie. Glad to see that you are thinking about your lungs. I didn't and I'm paying for it. Any new tool has a learning curve. Some people have problems with some things that don't bother other other people using the same tool. It s a very individual learning curve. I've had a Festool tracksaw for about 5 years. I use it 99% of the time on the job and I only have one 55" rail. I think the thing that we all need to understand is everyone's situation and requirements are different. I hope that everyone enjoys woodworking as much as I do.

Will. I didn't find everything in this thread to be objectionable. I also find it hard to believe that you can cut up $500 worth of plywood before you catch your mistake. I'd have to think you weren't paying much attention to what you were doing.

Ole. Great post!

[Will Blick]

> Will. I didn't find everything in this thread to be objectionable.

Did I suggest you did???


> I also find it hard to believe that you can cut up $500 worth of plywood before you catch your mistake.

Yeah, "hard to believe" well.... u caught me, I was lying... I felt compelled to embarrass myself admitting mistakes that cost me $$ to others. Nice catch John (or maybe another ASSumption?)... ???

> I'd have to think you weren't paying much attention to what you were doing.

Yeah, after I turned 50, my ability to see tiny errors over long cuts have diminished, I still have 20/10 vision in both eyes, but obviously my eyes must have failed me after a long day of work. I try to pay attention 100% of the time John, check, re-check, measure twice, use a square on every corner for every cut, glue up, etc... but unfortunately I do fall short sometimes. Hence why its nice to be able to rely on your tools to reduce the amount of cross checking. Maybe after another decade of practice, I will be on par with the skills of someone like yourself. Thanks for your input John..

Its interesting that 35,000 Americans end up in Emergency rooms per year from Table Saw injuries.... I bet your position is, they were obviously not paying attention, cause lets face it, 100% of those injuries were avoidable....I'm with ya John....

[Charlie MacGregor]

Will, maybe you should pay more attention to who you're aguing with.

[Will Blick]

I don't get it.... who? why? I treat everyone the same...is that wrong?

Sorry, correction.... I saw Ole at the bottom of the post, and mistaken he was the author...
I will correct my above post, my mistake.... (not so hard to admit being wrong)
Sorry to Ole...

[Ole Anderson]

>
Ole, I agree that perfect butt cuts on the rail would be the ultimate solution, in theory. Surprisingly this issue has not surfaced yet. Certainly Festool has the ability to make near perfect 90 deg. cuts on their rails. However, I think the weak link for this premise is .... the rails are very thin alum., therefore they are sensitive to slight movements from heat, physical stresses, dents n dings, etc. So while a perfect 90 deg cut might be a perfect solution right off the assembly line, I doubt it will be reliable over the life span of the rail. But this could easily explain why some people feel the straightness issue, is as a "non issue" while others have been occasionally effected by it. If you are fortunate, and your rails have perfect 90 deg butt cuts, well, those perfect butt joints serve as both a perfect alignment method, AND, insurance against loosing straightness. Of course, that might be the case today, but not in a few years.


Well, I guess I "surfaced" it. So if you are not relying on the butt joint for alignment, what are you relying on? The skinny steel spline connector? Give me a 7 1/2" wide butt joint any time. I can't imagine actually bending the flat aluminum track in the direction that would affect alignment. It would be like trying to bow a wide flat board standing on edge. Now if there were two well spaced spline connectors on the opposite sides of the rail, then you might have something that would approach the usefulness of the butt joint. As previously stated, a perfect 90 degree joint is not necessary as long as they are the same angle, and if they are cut on a production saw, it will be as near a CNC milled joint as you will get. Not having seen the other tracks up close to look at the machine marks, I don't know if other manufacturers actually mill the end cuts.

[Will Blick]

> So if you are not relying on the butt joint for alignment, what are you relying on?

A straight edge, that was the gist of this thread....the steel spline connectors are the holding method. Agreed the butt joint itself would be ideal, if consistent, reliable and repeatable over the production years.... My guess is, the thinness of the rails will always prevent the butt joint from being as reliable as a straight edge.
I like the concept of an straight edge connector (which remains affixed) on the non cutting rail edge.

> As previously stated, a perfect 90 degree joint is not necessary as long as they are the same angle, and if they are cut on a production saw

If you cut a 89 deg angle, then the mating rail would need to be 91 deg. Somehow u must end up with 180 deg, so perfect 90's are the only hope for butt joint alignment between all rails. I think u are referring to rails that are cut and "those specific ends" are re joined, of course they will always be 180 deg. I think this is where you were going with this thought? Anyway, these rails need to join with "any" rail, any vintage year, etc. Or maybe I am not following your concept?

[John A langley]

Will. I wasn't criticizing your woodworking abilities but what year did you win the national championship in debate?

[Will Blick]

I guess u just awarded it to me! If so, then 6/11/13 :-)

Hey, don't discount your own skill-set John, this post was an excellent "deflection", :-)

[John A langley]

I'm glad you have a sense of humor Will.....and I do too. You mentioned that you are past 50. I'm pushing 71 and still love working.

[Will Blick]

as they say John, gotta roll with the punches, huh....
laughter really is our best medicine :-)
Impressive at 71 to be active in ww... prob. a mix of good genes, and / or clean living. Kudos to you.
Seems my mind wants to do ww forever, now if my mind could convince my body of the same :-)
guys like Sam Maloof amazed me all those years in his late 80's, wondering, how can his body still execute 8 hrs of shop time per day?? A legend in many ways...

[John A langley]

Will, it sure wasn't clean living - just dumb luck. Actually I'm in pretty good health considering.

[Ole Anderson]

> I think u are referring to rails that are cut and "those specific ends" are re joined, of course they will always be 180 deg. I think this is where you were going with this thought? Anyway, these rails need to join with "any" rail, any vintage year, etc. Or maybe I am not following your concept?

I am interested in my 2 rails always joining. I don't have a pile of rails, I figure, in 15 years my 2 rails will be vintage. If you are trying to match up a bunch of rails, all bets are off and you must rely in the bending strength of the spline to not deflect when you are sawing a large panel. In which case you had better align them with a Berrerly or a straight edge every time. If you have tracks that visually butt perfectly (new ones are likely to do that) and result in a straight cut, mark them as mates in case you go to a job site and your buddies have the same tracks. I work by myself in my home shop so that is not an issue, nor would it be for most of the folks reading this thread.

A properly aligned production saw will cut within a few thousandths of perpendicular across an 8" rail, multiply that by 7 and you might be out 20 or 30 thousandths, or 1/32" in 55 inches. As a test, butt your rails, after checking for nicks and protrusions, lock down the spline and check it with a straight edge and tell me how much off it is.

[Will Blick]

Ole, I think we all agree, a perfectly aligned saw can cut these rails to near perfect 90's... however, I am not sure such precision is implemented by Festool. Or possibly after the cut, the ends are effected by movement due to their thinness, maybe over time, maybe extreme temperatures? Whatever the reason, its been reported by many of us, that a flush rail butt joint "can sometimes" assure non-straight cut. I fully agree with you, perfect 90 butt joints would be ideal and solve BOTH the straighness issue, AND the "keep it straight" vulnerability.

But, the jury has spoken, and it's not the case for all rails sold.... regardless of the denial by those who do not experience such. Hence why a straight edge should be the final check for straightness, not a flush butt joint...that is all many of were suggesting.

I am not near my rails this week, so I can't get the exact measurements, I did all this R&D years ago. There was no reason to mark the rails, knowing which ones are perfect 90 and which are not, and whether that would change over time. I simply grab the straight edge and to be honest, I have so many rails now, I rarely join them. So for me, no big deal, I solved it.

Maybe Julie will get her new rails and report her findings since this was her thread....and now she too is a proud owner of a TS system... I can understand why some would not want to speak out, as the brand loyalist can often beat them into submission :-)
and once again, this comes from a Festool tool hog,
but who is diabetic, so avoids the Green Kool Aid. :-)

[Julie Moriarty]

I think we can let sleeping dogs life for now. I started this thread to see of there was a system out there that solved the issues I read about Festool's connectors. There might be but Bosch doesn't sell their TS in the US and Mafell is just a bit too pricey for me. Besides, it's kind of hard to part with that much money when you really don't have any reviews to go on.

I've learned a lot here and I appreciate the input. And I've resigned myself to going through the same steps every other Festool guide rail owner has to go through. Though I do sometimes wonder why Festool charges more for something that is no better than the less pricey competition.

BTW, the shipment is coming piecemeal. Two days ago I got the guide rail accessory kit. Yesterday one rail came. Today the rest is supposed to arrive. FWIW, I did check the squareness of the rail end using both Festool's angle unit and a Starrett square. Both measured the edge to be about 1/3 degree off on either end. And both ends were canted in, towards the cutting edge. So, if you butted enough end-to-end, they would eventually form a circle.

I also checked the connectors and there's some slop side-to-side. Maybe they were designed that way to allow for alignment against a straight edge. Whatever the case, I know I have to check squareness and straightness before making any cut when using joined rails or when using the angle unit (I found some error there too.)

[michael flay]

I think we can let sleeping dogs life for now. I started this thread to see of there was a system out there that solved the issues I read about Festool's connectors. There might be but Bosch doesn't sell their TS in the US and Mafell is just a bit too pricey for me. Besides, it's kind of hard to part with that much money when you really don't have any reviews to go on.

I've learned a lot here and I appreciate the input. And I've resigned myself to going through the same steps every other Festool guide rail owner has to go through. Though I do sometimes wonder why Festool charges more for something that is no better than the less pricey competition.

BTW, the shipment is coming piecemeal. Two days ago I got the guide rail accessory kit. Yesterday one rail came. Today the rest is supposed to arrive. FWIW, I did check the squareness of the rail end using both Festool's angle unit and a Starrett square. Both measured the edge to be about 1/3 degree off on either end. And both ends were canted in, towards the cutting edge. So, if you butted enough end-to-end, they would eventually form a circle.

I also checked the connectors and there's some slop side-to-side. Maybe they were designed that way to allow for alignment against a straight edge. Whatever the case, I know I have to check squareness and straightness before making any cut when using joined rails or when using the angle unit (I found some error there too.)

Just curious as to why you didn't just get one long rail, since you are just using this at home?

[Julie Moriarty]

Just curious as to why you didn't just get one long rail, since you are just using this at home?

Cost. The TS 55 comes with a 55" rail that's good for shorter cuts, so I'd want that for sure. The additional 55" guide rail is $115. The 106" guide rail is $295. Plus, storage and handling of the 106" rail...??? Having the additional 55" is cheaper and makes storage and handling easier.

I joined the two rails yesterday, placed the saw & rails on the sheet I'll be cutting and immediately realized I can't use the Festool rail clamps. The table I'm cutting on is longer than the sheet I'm cutting. Hopefully some squeeze clamps and the rubber grips on the rails will do the trick. I'll make it work.

[Matt Meiser]

You probably don't need the clamps at all unless its really slick material. I don't even always use them on prefinished maple.

[Julie Moriarty]

You probably don't need the clamps at all unless its really slick material. I don't even always use them on prefinished maple.

Thanks Matt. I noticed the rubber grips seem to hold pretty well. I'm guessing as long as I don't apply side-to-side pressure, the rails should stay put.

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks Matt. I noticed the rubber grips seem to hold pretty well. I'm guessing as long as I don't apply side-to-side pressure, the rails should stay put.

I think you'll be fine Julie. Let the saw do the work and keep the debris to a min, you've really got to put some side pressure to move the rails. It's actually easier to move the rails on shorter pieces of material, due to less overall total surface tension, or adhesion, whichever is the correct terminology.
I think you're really going to like the overall setup.

[Sam Murdoch]

You probably don't need the clamps at all unless its really slick material. I don't even always use them on prefinished maple.

Whereas I on the other hand use them unless I absolutely can't. Just me, but it take so little time to clamp compared to ruining a piece of valuable material. Just have the hose get hooked once or find that you need to reposition as you are running a long wide rip and the benefits of the clamps become obvious.

[David Weaver]

I also don't use clamps, but I do my work on the floor. My left hand is literally on the track when I start a cut, and when I move the track between cuts, I brush off the dust from the rubber bumper under the track.

[Julie Moriarty]

I did a few cuts on birch veneer MDF cored 3/4" plywood. At first I was NOT happy! There was a lot of dust being spit out up front. I have it hooked up to a CT26 with a 36mm hose so I was surprised to see all the dust. But I had the vac turned down because I had been sanding. So I turned it up all the way. The second cut was a bit better but still not what I was expecting. Then I went back to the manual to refresh my memory. (I had read it, I just didn't retain it all.) I realized I hadn't set the splinter guard down to the plywood. The next cut collected almost all the dust.

I noticed the blade that comes with the TS55 doesn't cut as cleanly as the Freud LU79R I use on my table saw. Does anyone use non-Festool blades with their TS? If so, does it make any difference?

[michael flay]

Cost. The TS 55 comes with a 55" rail that's good for shorter cuts, so I'd want that for sure. The additional 55" guide rail is $115. The 106" guide rail is $295. Plus, storage and handling of the 106" rail...??? Having the additional 55" is cheaper and makes storage and handling easier.

I joined the two rails yesterday, placed the saw & rails on the sheet I'll be cutting and immediately realized I can't use the Festool rail clamps. The table I'm cutting on is longer than the sheet I'm cutting. Hopefully some squeeze clamps and the rubber grips on the rails will do the trick. I'll make it work.

All I did was glue a 4x8 sheet of 1" Styrofoam to a 4x8 sheet of OSB with a 2x4 base and store it against a wall and when needed it sets up on two fold away sawhorses and found that this works great for doing any cutting.

[Jamie Buxton]

..I noticed the blade that comes with the TS55 doesn't cut as cleanly as the Freud LU79R I use on my table saw. Does anyone use non-Festool blades with their TS? If so, does it make any difference?..

Which blade is now coming with the TS55? Festool makes a whole range of blades for the saw -- a veneer/laminates blade, a general-purpose blade, some rip blades, etc. A veneer blade is probably what you want. It has lots of teeth (48?), and a negative hook angle.

BTW, the Festool veneer/laminates blade does a good job on the task it is designed for, but doesn't do a good job on tasks like ripping solid lumber (that negative hook...). If you're going to work in solid lumber, a general-purpose blade or a rip blade would be a good acquisition.

I now have a Freud veneer/laminates blade for my TS55. As far as I can tell, it cuts the same as the Festool veneer/laminates blade I had before it.

[Will Blick]

Rick, your #84 post....

When the trainers re-did their procedures, they added the need to put a gap between the rails. I disagree with that need, but it is not worth expending my connections to Festool management to get that pulled from training. It doesn't hurt (maybe), but it is not necessary either, and you will not find it described in my manuals. (One poster in this thread commented on it, or I wouldn't have even brought it up.) Actually, in hindsight, maybe that was the reason that poster was having problems. I don't condone the gap, and quite possibly it is the reason why the poster commented on having his rails get knocked out of true with usage. If that is the case, then I will kick it up to management to get it removed from the curriculum.

Then u write in YOUR supplemental manual for REQ.....

Do not assume that butting the two rail ends
together will result in a straight line for their entire
length. A very tiny error in the butted joint can
result in a significant error across the length of the
joined rails. A long straightedge is the recommended
method for aligning the rails.


Ok, I am trying to reconcile your two positions....

You state above, NO gap between the rails.... but you suggest using a straight edge to assure straightness of the rails. I think we ALL agree the rail to straight-edge flushness takes precedent over everything. So for us unlucky rail owners, who use a straight edge and have small gaps in the butt joint....what gives? U can't have it both ways, unless all rail ends are perfect 90's. And if the rail ends were perfect 90's, why use a straight edge at all??? It's your words in the manual that suggest, don't assume a flush butt joint will produce a straight cut.

Would like to understand which position you're aligned with today?

[Tom Ewell]

Just a note about the Betterley that just came in.

It's a beefy hunk of machined 1/2" aluminum (milled to 15/32), weighs a tad more than a FS800, fit and finish is excellent.

Connected my three tracks (two 55's and 32), used both sides my long Stabila door jamber to verify up and down the entire run, spot on. (assuming that the Stabila is reasonably true)

While it is capable of supporting the joint by itself but I wouldn't recommend this, the UHMW plastic protectors makes it a little too slippery to hang on beyond its designed use (no damage done :o)

It does store in my track case (old style Festool tote bag), just snugged it to my 800 and slid it into the short pouch, just fits.


Shipping was a little up there at $16.51, packaging is excellent, the unit is encased in formed styro and custom cardboard.

Total tally is at $115.51 shipped to So. MD.

Value is up to each, too many times I need to join the tracks on a couple of 2x4's straddling saw horses, this thing will ease the pain of initial alignment for me.

[Rick Christopherson]

Ok, I am trying to reconcile your two positions....I don't have two positions, and I have never altered my stance. You're confusing the difference between deliberately adding a gap between the rails versus a possible gap resulting from the ends not being square. One of the previous posters in this thread commented about deliberately adding a gap between the rails so they are not touching at all. I believe this is what the trainers were presenting in class and videos. I disagree with that. The rails should be brought together tightly, and the straightedge dictates whether a gap (triangular gap) exists or not.

You should never assume that the rail ends are perfectly square. Using a straightedge is the best method for aligning the rails. Some users were just butting the ends together without ever checking the alignment with a straightedge. Even if the ends of the rails were perfect, the longer the rail, the less the butt joint could be trusted. The potential error is the ratio between the length and width (L/W). So for a 55" rail, any error in the butt joint is amplified 8-times (55/7) at the end of the rail. So even getting a piece of sawdust between the rails could result in a non-straight joining if you don't use a straightedge.

[Will Blick]

David, nice play on words... good laugh. Yes, I don't get it either...or maybe I do :-)

Rick, understood...but you also mentioned in this thread, how Julie (and others like me) are addressing a problem that does not exist.... i.e. joining rails STRAIGHT and keeping them aligned when being moved around after being joined. If there is a gap between the rails, they are vulnerable to mis alignment when being moved around. You seem to resist this obvious issue. Its OK to be GREEN...but at the same time, I think its fair for some of us to suggest Festool has a GREAT product, but not a PERFECT product...that is what this comes down to.... IMO, a case of brand loyalist gone wild :-)

[Julie Moriarty]

Regarding knocking a set of rails out of alignment during use, that was pertaining to the Betterly device because it doesn't stay on the rails during actual usage. If you are going to put that device back on the rail every time you pick it up, then you may as well just grab a straightedge and check it. In my opinion, that device is just an expensive gimmick. In order for that device to do any good, you still have to carry it with you. So what difference does it make whether you carry a $100 special straightedge versus carrying a $20 level?

The same argument could be made regarding Festool's guide rail angle unit.
http://www.festoolusa.com/images/400/fs_ks_491588_z_01a.jpg
From Festool's website


Quickly and accurately set angles for cutting or routing with the Festool FS guide rails

Ideal for making angled or even compound cuts in sheet goods
Made of aluminum and steel for long life.
Plastic guides fit easily into the outside guide rail track


Based on the one I now own, you have to use a square to make sure it's 90 degrees. If you want to ensure it is set for any other angle, you need a protractor. You can't rely on the stamped degree marks to be accurate. So this too could be called an expensive gimmick ($88.00) And, just like with the rails, if you move it to repeat an angle cut, you have to re-check the angle because the unit doesn't firmly lock the angle and it can be fairly easily knocked out of position. Also, the plastic guide that fits into the rail track each have a screw in them for creating a snug fit but if you want it snug enough to stay in place, the screwdriver slots in the screws will scrape against the aluminum and score it. This can cause the angle unit to bind. A far better solution would have been to use a rail connector to insert in the slot with screw knobs on top for a secure fit.

I think it's good to know what you're getting into before you buy. As long as accurate information is provided, (hopefully by the manufacturer and/or it's affiliates, but at least by the reviewers and consumers) the prospective buyer can make the right choice for him or her. And then whatever choice they make at least they were able to make it with reliably true information. I've found this is pretty much true for most manufacturers, except Festool. For some reason anytime there's someone out there with legitimate issues with a Festool product, the "protectors of the faith" will swoop in and tell everyone they are wrong. Either that or they will try to discount the issues or attempt to end the discussion. Why?

From what I've seen, the guide rail system and its accessories are the Achilles heel of Festool's claim - Fast Easy Simple TOOL. I haven't found any of those to be true with the rail system. And you can accuracy to that list of missing qualities too.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think it's safe to say anyone who puts in the time & effort, like Rick does with his manuals, to the benefit a for-profit corporation, isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart. For me, I think since we are all here to help and be helped, honesty is a must and we need to put bias aside. And if we fear reprisal from a corporation we're doing business with, then just stay out of it. I don't know how many uber-wealthy people there are here but I think it's safe to say most of us don't have money to burn. Nor we want to try out one product after another in order to find out the truth about that product. So we rely on open and honest discussion with fellow woodworkers.

I think Festool sanders and dust collectors are excellent and would recommend them to anyone who wants a quality sander or dust collector that does what it's supposed to while making the job easier. I can't speak to the TS 55 yet because I don't have much time with it. But I will say the dust collection, when used with the Festool CT 26, is impressive.

Even with as highly as I rate those products, I can't say the same for their track system. I'm an electrician, not an engineer, but it took me about 2 minutes to find a Fast, Easy and Simple ;) way to secure the angle unit to the guide rail, for minimal cost. I'm sure someone at Festool already thought of that but it, or some better idea than the plastic nubs they have, is not incorporated into their angle unit. They could also do one last cut to square the ends of their rails before they go into the box. But they don't do that either. And that is where I give Festool no quarter because they price their products very high and that's where my expectations go when I'm paying that much. But until a majority of Festool customers demand a better product, it appears we won't get it. They would rather create a video telling you to "verify connection with a straight edge", a 3rd party accessory :rolleyes:, and make you do the work.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krdiTeFf8BU

[Will Blick]

> They could also do one last cut to square the ends of their rails before they go into the box. But they don't do that either.

Such a simple suggestion.... I have always been curious about the same. Let me know if you ever get an answer to this question :-) Heck, there might be a logical reason why the butt ends are not all square.... just can't find out. I would be curious if the Makita rails are all cut square? Even if they were square Julie, maybe a mix of heat and flexing might throw the square off a small amount. So it could be an unattainable goal, at least when the metal is so thin.

[David Weaver]

> They could also do one last cut to square the ends of their rails before they go into the box. But they don't do that either.

Such a simple suggestion.... I have always been curious about the same. Let me know if you ever get an answer to this question :-) Heck, there might be a logical reason why the butt ends are not all square.... just can't find out. I would be curious if the Makita rails are all cut square? Even if they were square Julie, maybe a mix of heat and flexing might throw the square off a small amount. So it could be an unattainable goal, at least when the metal is so thin.

The makita rails are cleanly cut on the ends, just went and looked at mine. How precise they're cut, I don't know. I never thought about it before this thread, because I usually don't hang out up here at all, but I use a 48" starrett edge to check the rails as I tighten them. Even if they are square, a couple of drops or something, or carelessness, and they'll be out of square since they're just aluminum.

That said, my two makita rails are pretty much on the mark when I put them together, though even as they are, I will always check with the starrett edge as it's always at hand in the shop for something or other. If I didn't have it, I'd find an acceptable substitute even if it was a quartersawn board that I had match planed to make sure it was dead nuts. Life's just easier with precision when you're using hand tools - it's in your hands and your brain, and not subject to dropping or poor manufacturing.

[John Bailey]

I would remind everyone to stay on topic. The best philosophy is to "not offend" and also, "not be offended."

This has been an informative thread. We'd rather not shut it down. However, if those who cannot stay away from personalizing the thread keep up the negative posts, we'll have to shut it down.

Thanks for your understanding,

John

[Tom Ewell]

Good call John, it was getting a little out of hand.

I think all involved have made their point but with all of the verbiage, some may have been missed.

[Sam Murdoch]

The same argument could be made regarding Festool's guide rail angle unit.
http://www.festoolusa.com/images/400/fs_ks_491588_z_01a.jpg
From Festool's website


Quickly and accurately set angles for cutting or routing with the Festool FS guide rails

Ideal for making angled or even compound cuts in sheet goods
Made of aluminum and steel for long life.
Plastic guides fit easily into the outside guide rail track


Based on the one I now own, you have to use a square to make sure it's 90 degrees. If you want to ensure it is set for any other angle, you need a protractor. You can't rely on the stamped degree marks to be accurate. So this too could be called an expensive gimmick ($88.00) And, just like with the rails, if you move it to repeat an angle cut, you have to re-check the angle because the unit doesn't firmly lock the angle and it can be fairly easily knocked out of position. Also, the plastic guide that fits into the rail track each have a screw in them for creating a snug fit but if you want it snug enough to stay in place, the screwdriver slots in the screws will scrape against the aluminum and score it. This can cause the angle unit to bind. A far better solution would have been to use a rail connector to insert in the slot with screw knobs on top for a secure fit.


From what I've seen, the guide rail system and its accessories are the Achilles heel of Festool's claim - Fast Easy Simple TOOL. I haven't found any of those to be true with the rail system. And you can accuracy to that list of missing qualities too.


I used mine twice and then put it away. Pretty useless accessory - free to anyone who is willing to pay S&H. I set my guide rails on pencil lines for square and angle cuts - you only need to mark each end of your cut - and quickly and accurately cut to the line. Repeatability? Draw more lines or make your own Fast Easy Simple TOOL - a plywood jig :rolleyes:.

[Will Blick]

John B, I appreciate SMC's newer, more liberal policy on these type threads. Letting issues play-out does wonders for the discovery process.
As for the "stop the madness" posts...
Who forces these people to read the threads?

[Julie Moriarty]

Which blade is now coming with the TS55? Festool makes a whole range of blades for the saw -- a veneer/laminates blade, a general-purpose blade, some rip blades, etc. A veneer blade is probably what you want. It has lots of teeth (48?), and a negative hook angle.

BTW, the Festool veneer/laminates blade does a good job on the task it is designed for, but doesn't do a good job on tasks like ripping solid lumber (that negative hook...). If you're going to work in solid lumber, a general-purpose blade or a rip blade would be a good acquisition.

I now have a Freud veneer/laminates blade for my TS55. As far as I can tell, it cuts the same as the Festool veneer/laminates blade I had before it.

Sorry I missed answering this...

The blade that comes standard is their 48 tooth; 2.2mm kerf; 20mm arbor; 5 deg hook angle; ATB. Freud's compatible blade for plywood and laminates is a 48 tooth, High-ATB, .087 kerf, which may be the one you have. I just ordered it because I've been very happy with the comparable blade on my table saw.
http://www.freudtools.com/images/lu-80chart.jpg

I also ordered a rip blade because I can see where the track saw could act as an edge jointer for up to 8/4 lumber. My old Craftsman 6" jointer was recently donated to my neighbor, who hopefully can show more patience with the beds constantly falling out of parallel. And yes, I warned him.

Freud doesn't yet make a glue-line rip blade for the TS 55. The one I ordered is LU87R006M20 which has a 14 degree ATB and .098 kerf.
http://www.freudtools.com/images/LU87RChart.jpg
It will be interesting to see how the track saw does ripping a board. With the saw and the material always remaining in the same relative position (as opposed to feeding a board into the table saw - long, wide boards being harder to keep against the fence) I'm thinking the cut should actually be better. Of course a lot of that depends on the blade. And the track must remain stationary too.

This is the result of cutting 3/4" birch MDF core ply with the Festool blade:
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Tools/fes_plycut_zps91baf0d2.jpg
But that is the top side, where the blade upcuts. I have some sapele plywood I need to cut and it's a darker wood. Splintering would show more than with lighter woods. I've never cut good plywood with a circular saw. None of the saws I have can make a good enough cut. (I made this cut as a test to see how good dust pickup is.) The other side of that cut in the pic above was pretty much splinter free. When cutting with a track saw, you have to think upside down from the orientation you'd have the wood on a table saw.

Sam, it was interesting reading you felt the Festool angle unit is a "Pretty useless accessory". With the little I've used it, I was already thinking along those lines. When I added up the individual price of all of the items that came in guide rail kit, including the cost of the systainer, the angle unit became much cheaper so I thought I'd give it a try. I'm going to do some modifications on it to see if I can make it useful. One problem I already noticed was in sliding the rail along the workpiece - it wasn't so easy because of the rubber grips on the bottom of the rail. So the idea you can easily slide the rail/angle unit across a workpiece to repeat a cut isn't so true. And picking the set up together, the angle unit can easily be dislodged. Festool still has some serious engineering to do if they want to make their angle unit live up to their claims.

[Greg R Bradley]

I used mine twice and then put it away. Pretty useless accessory - free to anyone who is willing to pay S&H. I set my guide rails on pencil lines for square and angle cuts - you only need to mark each end of your cut - and quickly and accurately cut to the line. Repeatability? Draw more lines or make your own Fast Easy Simple TOOL - a plywood jig :rolleyes:.
Sam, the angle jig has its uses but I can understand why some people would not find it useful. One of the big reasons to buy Festool from a knowledgeable dealer is so that they can advise you what works well for YOUR uses.

I can use another FS-KS angle unit. I would be happy to trade you for an item that does fit your uses. That way, we both end up ahead. I have a number of extra items including a fair amount of new Festool items. Why don't you PM me and we can figure out something that helps each other?

[Tom Ewell]

Julie
The only time I had that kind of crosscut splintering with my setup was on the waste side without the green splinter guard set using either the included Festool or similar Oshlun blades. As the Festool blade dulled and both guards set, there would be some fuzz left at the cut but nothing deep enough that a quick swipe with 220 wouldn't take care of.

Rarely is the occasion that at the end of crossing a 4' sheet where the downward pressure on the saw and track might get a little loose (the long reach) that the splinter guards might lose some effectiveness, this is where clamping or lower cutting station might help.

I haven't, however, cut veneered mdf, only lam and lumber core ply, so don't know if there'd be a difference.



Who forces these people to read the threads?

We call it "rubber necking" around these parts, folks just have to slow down and witness as much as they can at the site of a train wreck.

[Will Blick]

> We call it "rubber necking" around these parts, folks just have to slow down and witness as much as they can at the site of a train wreck.

I get that part.... but then, complain about it ?? That's the part I never get. My Delete key on my keyboard is worn out from fast deletions of subjects or banter I have no interest in...
In 20 yrs of forum participation, I never once complained about what others want to talk about.

Julie, yes, those splinters are extreme vs. my experience. Out of curiosity, is the splintered cut you show, the work piece (the wood under the rail), or the waste piece (the wood NOT under the rail). Just being clear about the terminology here, as its not always clear, as, sometimes we use the waste piece as the work piece. An example is, when you don't have enough wood to support the rail, or when using parallel guides to cut strips... the terminology "should" be reversed, but it doesn't :-). Festool refers to the wood under the rail as the work piece...so which was it?

In most cases, my cuts are so clean, I rarely ever use the splinter guards. So I am curious why your cuts splintered like that...
oh btw, I cut veneered MDF and veneered ply often, which is what makes me wonder...

[Tom Ewell]

the angle jig has its uses but I can understand why some people would not find it useful.
When I gave mine a workout, some time ago, I found it a little difficult to use primarily because the rubber on the track (as it's supposed to) made it less than easy to tweak the rail into final position and positively set the angle on the stock. This wouldn't have been a big deal but the angle unit itself had a propensity to easily lose it's set during this use.

Reading at FOG, there was significant commentary regarding this problem along with several "solutions" such as adding sandpaper washers (or similar) to enhance the grip when the unit was locked down.

Don't know if the newer jigs have a similar problem or if there is an official "fix" but now I just use the measure, square and hack mark routine for anything that doesn't fit on the MFT.

[Aleks Hunter]

Hi Julie,
I have Eureka zone EZ tracks, and I love them. it takes a few minutes to put the sled base onto the circ saw base plate and yo;re off to the races. The weather strip edge is my favorite thing abotu the setup. put it on the line you want to cut, tighten the clamps and go.
THere is also flexibility. If you need to cut deeper put a sled base on a 10" or even 16" circ saw. THey also have a very nice squaring system that is easy to use and easy to recalibrate when gravity intervenes (you drop it and knock it out of whack)

[Tom Ewell]

Gave the EZ system a run through just after the Festool purchase.

It took me a lot longer than a few minutes to install the "sled" on my PC saw (not including time spent modding the saw case to fit with the sled attached)

The tracks are definitely heavier than the Festool and really liked the two way rail but for long rips the extra stiffness could be problematic on a curved piece of ply, the Festool tracks are flexible enough to conform a little better to sight up that midpoint hack mark.

The splinter guards are nice but I had a problem (even after the trimming) of setting to the cut line and having the guards splay-out off the line when clamping down, needed to "pre splay" the track on the mark to be successful. Lay the Festool on the line and it stays put when clamping down.

Used the system for a while for heavier on-site stuff and quite frankly, I probably didn't work with it enough to fully learn the ins and outs, the Festool just suited my needs more readily.

Gifted it to my son-in-law and he loves it.

[David Weaver]

Julie, how deep was your depth of cut? I get the best performance on my saw without fiddling around with anything when I have the depth of cut set just deeper than the thickness of the material, rather than allowing the teeth to go by around the depth of a gullet or so. My first cuts looked like that when I had too much cut depth.

[Julie Moriarty]

Will, yes, the wood in the picture was from the "waste" side of the rail. But there was still some splintering on the "good" side too.

David, I set the depth so about half the teeth penetrate the wood. I know the RC updated manual says to go deeper but I went with what I do on the table saw. FWIW, when I slowed the rate of cut, the splintering was reduced.

Since my last post, I've been cutting up a couple of pieces of 1/4" sapele plywood. This is for the sides of the kitchen cabinets, to be placed over the factory sides so as to match the cabinet doors. At $70/sheet, I didn't want to screw anything up.

My first cut was a rip along a 7'-0" panel that will be placed on one side of the frig. Yesterday I had glued the sapele to a piece of 3/4" MDF birch and dadoed a strip of hardwood for the face, to match the cabinet face frames. Today I needed to cut the width down to 24". Maybe it's just getting to know the nature of the rails but it took me way too long to get the rails joined in a straight line. I kept trying to get the profiles of the two rails to match, because the saw was catching slightly at the joint. The back of the rail was flush, but the front wasn't. It wasn't until I took out a caliper that I discovered the width of ends of the rails are not identical. They are off by about 1/32". So you can't match the profiles at every point along the joint.

I realize this isn't a big deal but I was concerned the misaligned joint profile might start shaving off the black plastic strips the cams press up against to snug the saw into the rails. In time, it could shave that thin plastic strip through. Maybe that's why the connectors have so much slop in them, to get this adjustment right.

Anyway, I was getting frustrated but finally got the saw to run fairly smooth through the joint. And I started the cut. Immediately I realized in all that futzing around I forgot to make sure the rail was still on the marks. It wasn't! Fortunately, it was on the wide side.

I then went to crosscut a 2'x8' sheet of 1/4" ply. As I said before, the table is larger than the workpiece so I can't use the clamps. Across the 2' width, I couldn't get the rail to stay on its own. So I took out a couple of roller supports and rotated the sheet 90 degrees, with the place where I was making the cut hanging out over the table. Fast, easy and simple, this wasn't. Maybe two MFTs (for only $1250 :rolleyes:) would have helped but I don't have the money or the space for them. I made two crosscuts on the half sheet and then took the roller supports away.

I appreciated the track saw when I had to shave an angle off the wall side of the panels. This made out of 90 cuts pretty easy. But using the track system on 1/4" ply that's overhanging an edge causes the plywood to bend. So you have to keep the weight off by taking the weight of the saw yourself.

On the next piece I found croscutting the 4'x8' sheet with the track saw, then taking the cutoff to the table saw, much easier than doing it all with the track saw. Trying to work a full 4'x8' sheet of ply on my table saw in my workshop requires circus act level performance. The track saw broke it down enough to make the remaining cuts easy to do on the table saw.

What I like is I will no longer have to have the lumber store rip plywood in half so I can get it into the basement. I wasted a lot of wood doing that. And in the future, I won't have such an aversion to projects requiring plywood. I can reliably break them down in the garage to a manageable size and do so without requiring additional clean up on the table saw. Yes, it requires some futzing around but, like everyone else, I'll live.

BTW, I tried to make the angle unit work but had the same issues as others with the angle not remaining fixed and the unit not staying firmly in the slot. If I could find a bar that fits the slot and some lock knobs to secure the unit in place on the rail, that could replace those useless plastic pieces with the set screws in them. And if it's set right, the angle marks stamped on the tool could become accurate. Then, like what has already been mentioned, replace the washers with something that will hold the angle in place. Hey Festool! Are you listening?

[Sam Murdoch]

A few ideas for cutting stock when your clamps can't reach -

1) I have an 8" wide x 12" plywood board with a rabbet cut into one end. That rabbet sits on the very outside raised section of the rail (with the slot) and snubs up hard to the edge. It does not protrude into the pathway of the saw. On that plywood I set a heavy cast iron angle (but a coffee can of nuts and bolts or the like would work just as well). With the weighted board pressing against and down on the edge of the rail I have a good clamp effect going.

2) I use a rail longer than my cut piece and make certain that an equal thickness of material is supporting the end of the rail from sag and weight that end down.

3) If I only have a rail that is just a bit longer than my cut piece I slip in my connector bars into the end of the rail, place a board across those and weight that down. No need to screw in the connector rods and you will be surprised that an extra 5" hold down beyond the end of the rail will often be just enough to get your cut.

A few good work arounds...

[Rick Christopherson]

I know the RC updated manual says to go deeper but I went with what I do on the table saw. FWIW, when I slowed the rate of cut, the splintering was reduced.Optimal blade depth is very subjective. I tried to convey that in the manual, but if I didn't do a very good job of it, please let me know how to improve it.

Of course, when cutting on an MFT, you do want to keep it very shallow.

When cutting free-air below, then it becomes much more subjective. Too deep can result in more top-side tearout. What may not be obvious is that going too shallow may also result in bottom-side tearout, too. It is all a matter of knowing the tradeoffs that have to be gained over time.

The main reason for commenting in the manual about using deeper cuts was to emphasize how shallower cuts require more power. I touched on a few different scenarios to explain this, but it can't be all-inclusive.

Regarding the tearout shown in your picture, that is not bad for the offcut side, assuming you were not using the outrigger splinter guard. For the inboard cut, I would expect this to be much better, and with the outboard splinter guard installed, even the outboard side might be better. (By the way, in case you didn't realize, the clear plastic window is not a splinter guard. Only the green attachment is.)

264562

[Julie Moriarty]

Hi Sam,

Thank you for your suggestions. Your first idea is something that was roaming through my brain when I was trying to clamp the rail with no overhang room for the clamps. I see why Festool created the MFT with all its holes. But if you're working with full sheets of plywood, the MFT is kinda useless in that capacity. It's just too small. Really, it seems a full 4'x8' table would be the ideal when breaking down full sized sheet goods. And build into that the same "holey" concept as with the MTF.

By then end of the day, I fine tuned the process to where I knew what cuts were better made with the track saw and what cuts were better made with the table saw. Now, if you are on a job site, you have a more challenging task, if precision is critical.

All in all, I'm okay with the purchase. I won't be returning it. If I had a full sized table saw that could handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood and my shop was at ground level, I would probably see the track saw as unnecessary. So this is something everyone needs to evaluate for themselves, based on their specific needs.

[Julie Moriarty]

Optimal blade depth is very subjective. I tried to convey that in the manual, but if I didn't do a very good job of it, please let me know how to improve it.

Of course, when cutting on an MFT, you do want to keep it very shallow.

When cutting free-air below, then it becomes much more subjective. Too deep can result in more top-side tearout. What may not be obvious is that going too shallow may also result in bottom-side tearout, too. It is all a matter of knowing the tradeoffs that have to be gained over time.

The main reason for commenting in the manual about using deeper cuts was to emphasize how shallower cuts require more power. I touched on a few different scenarios to explain this, but it can't be all-inclusive.

Regarding the tearout shown in your picture, that is not bad for the offcut side, assuming you were not using the outrigger splinter guard. For the inboard cut, I would expect this to be much better, and with the outboard splinter guard installed, even the outboard side might be better. (By the way, in case you didn't realize, the clear plastic window is not a splinter guard. Only the green attachment is.)

264562

Yeah, I get that Rick. The whole depth of cut thing seems not to be a science. I have found, on the table saw, keeping the depth of cut to a minimum works well. So I set the TS 55 accordingly and really saw no problems.

As to the deeper cut requiring more power, I read the TS 55 adjusts to the load. I really don't know. I haven't used it in enough different situations to say one way or the other. Freud makes thin kerf blades for the TS 55 and markets thin kerf blades for underpowered saws.

FWIW, I did have the splinter guard in place (the green one) when I made that cut. And I was mistaken when I said the cut I showed in the picture above was the waste. I went back and checked and it was the workpiece I showed that was under the rail. But to add to that, I cut a lot of 1/4" sapele plywood today and many cuts were made with the good side up. That's where the marks were. The splintering was easily hidden after the panels were sanded and dyed. So things worked out well.

And Rick, if you can get me in a room with the Festool engineers, I'd be happy to "talk shop" with them. Together, we can make beautiful music. :D

[Rick Christopherson]

As to the deeper cut requiring more power, I read the TS 55 adjusts to the load. Maybe what I previously said was confusing. What I meant is that it takes more energy for the sawblade when the blade depth is just barely below the workpiece. It takes less energy when the blade is set deeper. For most cuts it won't matter. But for tougher cuts where the saw is bogging down, increasing the depth of the blade can improve performance.


FWIW, I did have the splinter guard in place (the green one) when I made that cut. And I was mistaken when I said the cut I showed in the picture above was the waste. I went back and checked and it was the workpiece I showed that was under the rail. But to add to that, I cut a lot of 1/4" sapele plywood today and many cuts were made with the good side up. That's where the marks were. The splintering was easily hidden after the panels were sanded and dyed. So things worked out well.You alluded to this in a previous posting and I was going to comment back then too. With the splinter guard functioning properly, you do generally cut with the good side up. It doesn't hurt to cut with the good side down, but most people cut with the good side up. Yes, without a splinter guard, you would normally cut with the good side down with a standard circular saw.


I'm a little concerned about the picture of the tearout you showed previously. Especially now, when you say that this was from the area under the guide rail splinter guard. Are you sure about that part? Is there any chance that this was from the underside of the board, and not from the topside? If by chance it was from the underside, then that is the tearout I alluded to earlier from having the blade depth set too shallow. The teeth of the blade will be moving parallel to the surface and can drag the wood fibers sideways (from their perspective its sideways, but actually toward the front of the saw). With a little more blade depth, the teeth will be moving more into the face of the surface instead of across it.

However, if this picture shows the topside of the board, that is a bit more of a puzzle. In order for those fibers to break loose, it means the splinter guard was not holding them down. I am not sure why that would be, but it is not the type of performance I would expect from the saw.

It is hard to tell from your picture whether those fibers are just uncut fibers that are extending into the saw kerf, or whether they are peeled back from the surface. If they are just uncut fibers extending past the edge of the board, then maybe a higher saw speed or slower feed speed would reduce them.

However, if they are peeled back, then it means that the splinter guard is not doing its job. Make sure the guide rail cams are properly adjusted. If they are loose, the saw could cut farther away from the splinter guard than you originally trimmed the splinter guard. With the saw unplugged, plunge the blade and make sure it is touching the edge of the splinter guard on the guide rail.

[Julie Moriarty]

Rick, in my second quote you copied into your reply I think the term "marks" may have been misunderstood because of the way I wrote that. When I wrote "marks" I meant pencil marks, to make the cuts. The sapele panels had a few imperfections and I wanted to make sure I cut them out of the finished pieces, thus doing the measurements from the top and making the pencil marks on the top was the easier option. And splintering while cutting the sapele panels was barely noticeable, in both rips and crosscuts. It was NOT like the birch shown in the picture. Not even close. You know I'm a perfectionist :rolleyes: and I'm satisfied with the results I had with the 1/4" sapele plywood.

I understand what you're saying about the cutting action of the blade relative to the depth of the blade, shallower sets are more of a shearing cut than a chopping cut and therefore require more energy. Like with a hand plane, you need a very sharp blade.

That cut I made in the birch was made with the bottom of the gullet slightly into the bottom of the cut. (In other words, the full depth of the gullet did not clear the thickness of the wood, but it was close.) When cutting the sapele, I set the depth just like I do on the table saw, with a little more than half the tooth protruding out of the cut. I get very clean cuts doing this on the table saw and I would say the TS 55 did a comparable job.

As to the splinter guard, I realize the concept is like a zero clearance insert on the table saw. The splinter guard however only snugs up to the blade on one side and part of the front. And, of course, as the depth of the blade changes, you lose that front snugging effect once you set the depth at anything less than the deepest cut you've made with that particular splinter guard. It's the same with the zero clearance insert. All in all though, it's a pretty good system. But as I said, it's the guide rail system that doesn't live up to the quality Festool is known for. And I honestly don't know if stepping up the quality control would make a real difference. However, I do believe they can and should do a better job with the design on the angle unit, or drop the price and let the buyer know they will have to fine tune it, or just stop selling it.

[Mike Cutler]

,Julie

The ratty edge you're getting doesn't seem right to me. Here are some pics of 1/2", one side finished, maple ply, cut with a 52 tooth Festool blade I cut this morning after seeing your post.
Depth of cut was set to about 1/8" deeper than the bottom of the gullets, or 30mm on the depth selector. I'm using a TS 75EQ. I've always been taught that the bottom of the gullet has to at least be above the surface of the material.I just kind of eyeball it prior to cutting, just arbitrary.
264576264577

The edge should be cleaner than what you are getting. The off cut, waste piece is exactly the same cut quality as the supported piece, top and bottom. The splinter guard was not used and the waste piece was unsupported. Sorry for the one blurry photo. In that photo the cut edge of the waste piece is closest to the green line on the track.
264578264579

To be honest, I would be upset with the tear out you experienced. It could be the particular ply you're using, setup, or blade. I don't know which blade the TS 55EQ ships with, but if it's the 48 tooth, and the saw is setup correctly,I'd look at getting an exchange on the blade. That type of tear out is what I get when the blade is dull, or the ply is a lesser quality, or at least that's my experience with a Freud Diablo blade, in a Makita circular saw, on an EZ rail.
That amount of tear out is not right, nor acceptable.
Hope this helps.
Mike

PS
An adaption some people have made for the splinter guard to be more effective, and usable, is to attach a sacrificial wooded block to the bottom of it. The block extends back farther towards the blade, so that it is usable at lesser depths of cut. If you google the 1/2" shy website videos, the guy shows it in enough detail to make one of you're own.

[Tom Ewell]

Really, it seems a full 4'x8' table would be the ideal when breaking down full sized sheet goods.

Now, if you are on a job site, you have a more challenging task, if precision is critical.

My typical job site setup for kitchen installs includes a job site table saw and the EZ table rig (I set mine on saw horses) something like the EZ allows plenty of room for clamping and supports full sheets, the table itself is a 2x4 hunk of good 3/4 ply, the sacrificial 1x is easily replaced and when it's compacted it fits into the truck quite handily.

[Julie Moriarty]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Tools/sapelecut_zps6e03c7c3.jpg
This is a picture of the waste piece from the 1/4" sapele I was cutting up yesterday. For reference, the dyed piece of sapele behind it is also 1/4". That little bit of splintering can be knocked down with sandpaper and not be noticeable. It's possible the birch ply was part of the problem but it was also about the third cut I had made with the saw. But I know circular saws. The first one I bought was over 40 years ago and it's done a lot of work. Maybe the fine tuning of the things specific to the saw weren't done properly. Whatever the case, it's encouraging to see the saw is capable of very clean cuts.

With the situation I had working on a table larger than a fell sheet, when I was crosscutting on a full sheet I let one side overhang so I could use the Fes clamp at one end and on the other end I placed a spring clamp on the outer edge of the rail to keep that end in place. When I put the clamp down, the cutting edge of the rail lifted a bit. I'm not sure if the weight of the saw brought it back down when I reached the end of the cut though. My "table" is the pool table with the ping pong top placed on it (bad side up). It's 54"x120".

With this experience I can see the usefulness of having a table designed to allow clamping wherever needed but where to store it when not in use? And would it be too heavy for me to work with? But without a table made specifically to address the clamping issue, the track saw alone isn't the fastest, easiest way to cut up sheet goods. I needed (6) pieces at 11-1/4" wide and did that on the table saw in a few minutes. I can't see the track saw matching that speed.

[Tom Ewell]

Nope, track saw can't match table saw in terms of repetitive cuts at speed. Long tapers, big cross cuts and anything I can't get onto an available table saw is when I use it.
I never once considered it a replacement for a table saw but it does augment my overall kit very well and don't overlook the tracks usefulness for the other tools in the "system" such as routing.

[Will Blick]

> To be honest, I would be upset with the tear out you experienced.

I fully agree with Mike here. Something is not right... try to determine the culprit now, while its under your 30 day warranty.

A few comments that might be helpful....

1) One poster mentioned, adding blade depth beyond the workpiece can improve cutting performance. IMO, this can sometimes be true, but the response was inadequate. The angle on the cutting teeth (blade design) will dictate the ideal plunge depth. If the wood thickness was always the same, the blade design and cutting protocol would be a slam dunk... as the blade design and penetration would be optimized for a specific wood thickness and blade penetration. However, that is NOT the case. Like all designs that must accommodate multiple variables, such as wood density, wood thickness, blade penetration and sacrificial material, there will be compromises in the design... my guess is, these 55 blades are designed for optimum performance in 3/4" material with a slight plunge penetration, 1/8" max. While a deeper plunge penetration for 1/4" material, can simulate a thicker board to the blade, it also can increase the load on the motor if the sacrificial material is wood. This greatly increases heat gain, which can cause burn marks and dull the blades prematurely, specially when MDF is the sacrificial material. So keep this in mind. Also, the added motor load, can force you to decreases the push speed, adding even more unwanted heat. Heat dulls sharp edges faster than wear. As a side note, this is a big plus of the 75 saw. It has more power, more cutting teeth and more blade mass to absorb heat. This is also why I always use polystyrene as my sacrificial underlay. These blades last a very long time when you avoid over heating and do not subject the teeth to constant MDF scraping.


2) Now that you confirmed the tear-out was from the "work piece" under the rail. My first suspicion is, the blade is not close enough to the rail splinter guard. This can happen for 2 primary reasons. Have you checked the blade leading edge to rubber guard distance at different plunge depths? This is mandatory for proper troubleshooting.


The first issue could have been with set-up, ... you adjusted the saw track guides, AFTER you cut the splinter guard. Or maybe the guide rail adjusters simply came loose after rubber trimming, and the leading edge of the blade is not making contact with the rail splinter guard.


The second issue is blade toe-in/out vs. the rail. This gets involved....

First, if your saw has toe-out, (leading edge of blade slightly angled away from rail), when you trimmed the splinter guard, the rear of the bade was making the final cut on the splinter guard, defeating the purpose of the trim cut. Now you will always have a gap between the blades leading edge and the splinter guard. (correctable by adjusting toe in/out and moving rubber guard further out, and re trimming) The tear out can range from, OK to terrible, based on the size of the gap.


Another possible cause is.... you cut the rail splinter guard with a plunge depth, which u did NOT use when cutting the test cut. If the blade is NOT "very close to parallel" to the rail, the plunge depth greatly effects how close / far the leading edge of the blade is to the rubber rail guard. For example, if the front of the blade is toed-in too much, a deep plunge will trim back the splinter guard even further than your initial trimming. (assuming you trimmed with. min. plunge) Now when you execute a reduced plunge cut, you have a gap between the leading blade edge and the splinter guard, negating the intended ZCI effect of the rail splinter guard. This is why the tear-out can appear to "come n go". When in reality, it's very consistent, following the geometry of the error. We must accept the relationship between toe-in/out and plunge depth.... there is no escaping this... it's the nature of the beast.


A simple test I have used to check this... I make a cut maybe a few feet into a clean workpiece at the plunge depth I plan to use....then stop, keep plunge down till blade stops, lift, remove saw. If the first few inches of the cut (where the rear of the blade has not made contact with the leading edge of the cut), and there is NO tear out in this small area near the rail splinter guard......but there is tear out in the trailing end of the cut, on the waste piece bottom. You have excessive blade toe-in. Based on the degree of error, this can, or can not, be an issue... in most cases, u are getting a clean cut of the workpiece, which is the goal, as per Festools position of workpiece and waste piece. So clearly, its the lesser of evils.

However, I often rely on a clean waste cut though, as I hate to re cut, just to clean-up an edge, so not acceptable for me. So, the ideal blade angle orientation is a very slight toe-in This assures the leading edge moves closer to the rail splinter guard when plunging. OTOH, a slight toe-out will create an ever increasingly larger gap between the leading edge of the blade, and the rubber splinter guard when plunging deeper, assuring tear-out, where you DON'T want it.... i.e. the top of the workpiece at the rubber splinter guard. Not good....


So, in your example, where the tear out is under the rail splinter guard, I strongly suspect, (assuming sharp and defective free blade) the leading edge of the blade is not making contact with the rail splinter guard. This could be a result of any combination of the issues I explained above. It takes some time to trouble shoot and think your way through this, to determine which issue(s) is the culprit. Since your saw is new, I don't suspect arbor run-out as the culprit, as this also can create the same set of problems, but is not sensitive to plunge depth.

Hope this added information helps you trouble shoot. The system really can be amazing when executed right. It unfortunately is not always perfect plug n play. Based on many posts regarding this issue, I suspect some people have a good set up, and rave about the cuts, and while others have this toe-in/out issue and can be puzzled by the hit or miss results. Also, it has to be understood, there is some limitations, and you learn when and how, to work around them.


Anyway, I am sure Festool paid dearly for the supplemental manuals. It's disappointing to me, details like this are NOT fully covered in the supplemental manuals. What I provided above is just a cursory overview of what I learned through my own experimentation in my spare time. If I got paid to do this, I could write some seriously long in-depth explanations with illustrations, so it's easier to grasp this complex issue for first time users. It's these details that can cause perfect cuts, or poor cuts, or anything in between. As with many things technical, often, the Devil is in the Details. Hopefully, a Festool engineer will create such a detailed manual in the future to cover this subject in detail.


Dislaimer #1 - I am not paid by Festool, I am a retail paying customer.

Disclaimer #2 - I wrote this post in another editor, and pasted it to the forum, so if the font is not perfect, I am sorry if it offends any of our ultra sensitive readers. Since I use 30" displays, it never is obvious to me if the font matches the other post font sizes. So my apologies if its not perfect. Hopefully, 99.9% of readers are more concerned with cut quality vs. font quality.

HTH

[Tom Ewell]

Hey all,
what type of splinter guards does everyone have on their tracks, mine are the old style black "rubber". I believe that the new gear is using that clear and somewhat harder material.
I doubt that it would make a difference but I just replaced one of mine with the new stuff and have yet to cut anything with it other than an old piece of Masonite to trim the thing.

[Ole Anderson]

It is much easier to get a splinter free cut on prefinished maple than on unfinished ply as the finish tends to hold the surface together. It is almost like the edge you get when cutting MDF. Not a good comparison. I got perfect cuts on prefinished maple ply, but some splintering on unfinished hickory ply using the same setup.

[Julie Moriarty]

Will, so there's no confusion on how I initially set up the TS 55, in relation to the cams and rail splinter guard, I followed the supplemental manual exactly.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Tools/camrail_zpsa46c71a0.jpg

On the TS 55 REQ, there's only one set of cams. So if there's an error on the toe-in, it is built in during the manufacturing process. You would either have to shave the stationary wear bar or add a shim if you were trying to correct toe-in. If I had to do something like that, I'd send the whole thing back and Festool would lose any future business from me.

After adjusting the cams to where the saw slid easily and I detected no noticeable play, I went to this step, which I also followed exactly:
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Tools/splinterguardtrim_zpsddf76ecc.jpg
I looked at the newly cut edge and could see no problems with the cut. It was clean and straight.

But to repeat myself, I wasn't using the Festool rail clamps on both sides of all of the cuts. Sometimes I didn't use the clamps at all, sometimes I only used one. And when I used only one Festool clamp, the other end was secured with a spring clamp and that tended to lift the splinter guard off the workpiece. But that section was NOT the one in the second picture.

Yesterday I went to the Chicago in-water boat show and got to spend 2 hours out sailing on the lake. Today I find splintering and track saws and Festool trivial concerns and if one has to do all this fine tuning to make a $900 investment work as the company claims, it's just not worth it. I'm probably going to return all this stuff.

[Will Blick]

I often use the rail clamps, but only when practical, or very expensive material. When I do NOT use clamps, I make sure there is no dust under the rail, or on the work surface, and pay attention to downward pressure to prevent rail movement.... with these precautions, rail clamps are often optional. Oh, slippery surfaces however, like some formicas, well, that might be the exception.

It seems how good your saw / rail system performs, can have some variability. Sometimes some tweaking is required. Just like the rail ends, seems some people get near perfect square cut rails, others do not. As we have learned, you can not get answers to these questions, cause the Festool guardians fear any negative press. :-) On the FOG, u can make enemies :-)

Regardless, it seems you have an excellent grasp of the system and its application. U did a great job utilizing all possible resources, so whatever decision you make is warranted. Kudos to the liberal return policy Festool offers, as it makes returns painless (if you take that route). But still a PITA.

[Tom Ewell]

Once the splinter guard is cut the relationship between the guide rail and the guard is fixed, only a blade thickness (kerf) and normal wear and tear down the road should change it.

I do see that the new saw has replaceable wear bars opposite the cams, my older model saw does not, perhaps a misfit lays there causing a skew of the saw.

If it is a toe in/out adjustment on the saw itself then I'd say quality control missed it, a return makes sense unless one wants to fool around with themselves which I'd be inclined not to.

[Sam Murdoch]

Julie as others have suggested you must have gotten a bad saw or a bad blade. What you describe and illustrate is not normal at least in my experience with the TS55. For me using TS55 has been as simple as getting the rail cam set - once - and commencing to saw. I use mine every week, if not every day, for all manner of cutting and have never had any issues. Last week I was sizing some foam core panels with 3/16" ply faces surfaced two side with plastic laminate. No tear out , no splintering, just nice clean razor sharp laminate. When I hung the panels off my cut table there would be slight tear out on the bottom side but if I backed up my cut with another surface the bottom edges were perfect. I expected nothing less. I often use the saw to scribe face frames or cabinet sides in paint grade or stain grade without thinking twice. Some of my guide rails have the clear splinter guard others have the old black version. I typically use a 48 tooth Festool blade but not all the time, and except for the rip blade on some solid lumber I don't suffer the frustration of tear out. The TS55 is the least fussy tool I own. I hope you can find a solution that does not involve giving up on Festool but rather your specific TS55. Just commiseratin' here.. Good luck.

[Steven Jaynes]

I've tried both Dewalt and Festool Track Saws. The Dewalt went the way of Craigs List. Found some of its accessories to be "iffy" whereas everything Festool does what it's supposed to. To me, Festool was very much worth the price difference. BTW, I own and respect my many Makita products. But with track saws, I'll stay with Festool.

I have both TS55 and TS75 saws. I use the TS55 for sheet goods and 1x lumber and use the TS75 mostly for 2x lumber. The TS75 is heavy. I'll use the TS55 when every it's enough saw. It has plenty of power for 1.5" material and thinner.

I HAVE used the TS75 with ALL my guide rails fastened together to rip a 22' long 2x12 to a custom width. It was effortless. My helper and I laid the lumber out on two sheets of foam insulation from Home Depot and made the cut, only repositioning of the guide rails once. I first made a "jointing" skim cut since I didn't trust the factory edge. Then measured for width and positioned the guide rails at the marks for the final sizing cut. Results were perfect. That ONE very long cut allowed us the laminate an extra thickness of material to the original beam we were reinforcing, eliminating several days of labor plus material expense we would have incurred removing and replacing a 22' 4x12 with a 22' 6x12. We were able to meet and exceed code and saved a great expense in time and material for us and the home owner

That one activity more than paid for the both Festool track saws and all my guide rails together. Everything before and after that was "free" since the saws paid for themselves all in one day.

Here's a bonus: The Festool Jig Saws will cut an amazingly straight and SMOOTH line when using the Festool precision ground jig saw blades like the HS75/2.5 bi #490178 or S75/2.5 #486548 and the guide-rail-following 490031 Guide Stop. I use the combination for occasional cross cutting and ripping, if and when my TS Tracksaws aren't available (like when I'm too lazy to fetch them from the truck for a single cut...) :).

I also use the Guide Rails and Festool Routers with the Guide Rails for dados and with a perforated guide rail and the Festool LR32 Hole Drilling System for boring 32mm style holes, especially for shelf pins. I have Blum jigs for hinges etc., but the LR32 Hole Drilling System provides an alternative I use for some jobs.

Yes Virginia. I have drunk the Festool Kool Aid and am hooked on Festool quality... AND Festool dust collection. The dust collection is excellent, especially in a residential environment where you'd like to protect the customers' property. Also good for the users' and customers' health.

Some claim Festool products are the crack cocaine for woodworking products. Perhaps so. Someone once said, Quality is Contagious. Oh, that's right. That was John Economaki, president of one of the OTHER expensive tool suppliers (Bridge City Tools). Hi John! I'm sure the same can be said of Lie-Nielson, Veritas (Lee Valley), Klein, Snap-On, and so forth.

My father, grandfather, and I differed in so many ways, but the one most profound, was they'd both buy tools from Harbor Freight or the $.99 bin at the home center, then cuss at them like sea cooks, when the tool died during a critical stage of a job. I on the other hand, tend to spend the money for tools once, buying the best quality took I can find and afford, then keep my tools for life, knowing it's unlikely those top-of-the-line tools will let me down at those most inconvenient and embarrassing times. It's a personal choice I'm happy with.

Steve J.
Portland, OR
Woodworking for over 50 years.

[Julie Moriarty]

I bought everything through Amazon. But the TS 55 and the included rail came from the Tool Nut through Amazon. Amazon has a great return policy. They pay for shipping and you can even arrange for pickup at your door. Unfortunately, Tool Nut does not do this. They only go as far as the Festool guarantee requires, which means you pay for the shipping if you're returning it. I ASSUMED Festool's guarantee would pick up return shipping. My bad for not reading it. At least the other stuff gets sent back shipping paid.

All in all I learned Festool isn't perfect, no matter how much some seem to insist they are. I am sold on their sanders and their dust collectors. They really are Fast, Easy and Simple and they do a great job too. But venturing into the track saw world made me realize not all their tools are as impressive. I've resigned myself to go back to what I have been doing all along. I'll probably have the hardwood store do some of the initial cutting on sheet goods to make them more manageable and not just have them rip the sheet in half. At $1 per cut, I have a long way to go before I spend as much as that track saw system was.

Thank you for all the help and information. You've all helped me arrive at the right decision and put $900 back in my pocket. :D

6:01 PM CDT - Just returned from dropping the saw off at UPS. The cost for testing the TS 55 REQ was $33.70, about 5.75% the cost of the saw. Yes, the $33.70 is what it costs to send it back.

[Will Blick]

Steve, great post... 22' cuts, wow... impressive, and shows how unique the track system is. I too like to share my rails with the other power tools....and, I am BIG on dust collection... had some kool aid, but remain rational regarding my assessments.... I know, I am a rarity in that regard :-)

Julie, I am sure you will do fine without a TS system, its not for everyone. For those of us who don't travel to job sites and own nice stationary tools, the TS system looses some of its appeal vs. those who work on different sites on a regular basis. Unless of course you cut sheets everyday :-) The entire Festool line makes a great traveling roadshow. Festool knows its market WELL !

Before I bought the TS system, I used a Bosch Circ. saw and broke down sheets small enough till I could get them on my cabinet saw. Sometimes, even those reduced size sheet parts were a challenge... as a cabinet saw surfaces area (to and fro the blade) is too short IMO...hence the growing popularity of sliding table saws... a nice mix of Cabinet saw and a rail system....till space becomes the limiting factor. As they say, horses for courses!

[Ole Anderson]

My track saw got me out of a jam yesterday. I had dowel assembled and glued an upper kitchen cab which was Hickory ply with Hickory edge banding. I screwed up and noticed after assembly I hadn't edge banded a critical edge which was now flush. So I set the saw to cut exactly the depth of the 3/4" ply, set the track to take off from the ply just the thickness of the edge banding, using one clamp on the 12" cut on the bottom of the cabinet. One cut didn't quite flush up the edge banding, so I slid the track over a skosh (technical term) and took off another sliver. Applied and trimmed the edge banding. Now it looks like I edge banded it before assembly, perfectly flush.

[Tom Ewell]

Strange how this thread has evolved from one of misgivings about rail alignment to one of cut quality, who knew.

Will now have to follow reviews on the new 55 to see if cut quality problems similar to what Julie was having is an actual trend or just a one-of escapee from quality control.

A quick scan over at FOG shows nothing but kudos so far.

[Julie Moriarty]

There's no doubt the track saw system is a great innovation. But for the price, it becomes a debate over what you need vs. what you want. If I was a traveling cabinetmaker, no doubt the track saw and all the accessories would be in my van or trailer. When I realized it wasn't a practical purchase for me was after using it for day. I could see a couple of MFTs making the work much easier and that's when the bell rang. In order to get the most out of the system I'd have to spend more. I was at $900... and counting. And for what? To break down maybe 10-20 sheets a year? It wasn't financially practical. Fast, Easy and Simple was also becoming Costly. FESTOOL was turning into FESCTOOL. Since I don't earn a living with woodworking tools, the cost became prohibitive.

Initially, I justified the cost of the DC and sanders because of health reasons. And, quite honestly, I really wonder if I would have quit, having to do all that sanding with my old Bosch 5" ROS and a Craftsman shop vac for a DC. If I didn't quit, it would have taken me a VERY long time to finish because most of the time I spent with the Bosch ROS was unpleasant, at best. It's a lot like the purchase I made with the Fuji HVLP system. That too has made this kitchen project less of a chore. And that cost around $800. But it cuts finish time to a fraction of what it was and does a much better job. And it's so easy to use, I know I'll be using it for every project I do. Finishing also was something that was less than enjoyable for me and I often took shortcuts because of that. So the DC, sanders & HVLP, while costly, I justified as great time savers, giving me better results and, in the case of sanding, better for my health. But the track system was more of a convenience than a huge time saver or health saver.

It was a great lesson and it's a great system (except for the angle unit http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/B_THUM1_zps0e2879e9.gif), but sending it back was the right decision for me.

[Mike Cutler]

Strange how this thread has evolved from one of misgivings about rail alignment to one of cut quality, who knew.

Will now have to follow reviews on the new 55 to see if cut quality problems similar to what Julie was having is an actual trend or just a one-of escapee from quality control.

A quick scan over at FOG shows nothing but kudos so far.

I think it was a natural progression, maybe unintended, but natural. Once Julie got her saw up and running, that was the next stumbling block for her.

Ole Anderson posted that comparing prefinished ply to unfinshed wasn't a fair comparison, which I agree with, but was just too busy to go cut another piece of unfinshed ply in a timely manner. Last nite however I cut some unfinished maply ply, 1/4", to see how much rattier the edge would be. I would have posted pics, but the forum was running slow last nite, and timed out before everyhting could upload. If I get a chance, I'll try to upload the pics tonite.
Basically the results were as follows;
Cuts going with the grain were very sharp, top and bottom.
Cuts going across the grain were just a little fuzzy, small hair like fibers at the very top of the material but not tearout, on the top layer, and very sharp edges on the bottom layer. It could be that Sapele ply is just a more difficult material to work with than maple. I've never cut Sapele ply, so I can't really say. Ole says hickory ply is also a bear to work with, so I'll keep that in mind for the future should I ever get a chance to use it. Maybe tape the cut, or something like that.
Regardless though, in my opinion, Julie did not get $900.00 worth of performance out of the system, so it's understandable that it was returned.