Finishing Oak Dining Room Table

[Jeff Bilbro]

I have done plenty of searches in the forums and just want to confirm I understand the finishing process before pulling the trigger and ordering a bunch of crap.

I have build a dining room table - top and aprons are white oak and legs are red oak - and am now trying to educate myself on how to finish it.

263829

I believe the process will be:


Sand up to 180 grit
Thin wood filler and fill all open grain
Sand again
Stain with a dark oil-based stain
Apply 2 coats of wax-free shellac with foam brush with 220 grit sanding between coats
Apply 3 coats of gloss poly with foam brush with 320 grit sanding between coats
Rub down to a satin finish with #0000 steel wool and paste wax


I have also read that a pre-cat lacquer is a good top coat and have a (cheap) sprayer, so I'm a bit torn on the top coat. I have three small kids so this table will not be treated lightly at three meals a day (in addition to crafts...).

Here are the specific products I'm looking at from Rockler:

263828

Does anyone see a problem with this approach? Some of my concerns are that the grain filler won't accept stain well, but I'll make sure to perform the complete finishing process on a scrap ahead of time. Appreciate any wisdom you dudes can share. This is my first big project so I'm a bit nervous... Apologies that some of this stuff has been covered in multiple other postings - I just wanted to post a concise process for your consideration.


Thanks!

-Jeff

[Prashun Patel]

Consider a nonpoly varnish. When built up some people think the alkyd or phenolic varnishes look better and rub better.

If you have not rubbed a large surface before, an alternative path to satin is several coats of gloss followed by a coat of the same varnish in satin.

There are pros and cons to any order of filling and coloring. Compare your test board to one , where you color first then seal with shellac, then fill. Sand gently..

Last, dont bother grain filling the legs or apron

[Jeff Bilbro]

Thanks for the reply Prashun.

Can you recommend a specific alkyd or phenolic varnish?

If I fill after I color, I'm assuming I would need a filler that's pre-colored to match the stain?

Sounds like a great way to save some time and energy by not grain filling the legs and apron - thanks!

[Prashun Patel]

Some pore fillers can be tinted.

The phenolic varnish that many around here use is Waterlox. You have a couple options:

Waterlox Original Sealer Finish is thinned to wiping consistency, but can be brushed on just fine; you'll just need more coats vis-a-vis:

Waterlox Original Gloss: full strength varnish
Waterlox Original Satin: full strength varnish.

Beware that Waterlox OSF is darker than the Gloss or Satin, and all three are darker than most polys.

An alkyd many people also like (I have not tried) is Pratt and Lambert 38. It is reported to be even lighter in color than poly.

There is also Behlens Table Top varnish which is phenolic and as dark - if not darker - than Waterlox OSF.

One more piece of advice: after you finish your test boards for color and settle on a schedule, do the whole schedule on the bottom first; be as patient and picky as if you were doing the top. The problem I encounter with varnish is that applying it on a small test board is easy because you can wipe or brush the whole surface in a few, quick passes. On a large, flat surface, you have to redip several times, and will be tempted to tip off, back brush, work, or rewipe the surface. As a result, a broad surface can develop imperfections that can frustrate. Using the bottom as the prototype will minimize surprises when doing the top. So, don't be tempted to shortcut the bottom; if anything, take LONGER on the bottom than the top. You'll be grateful in the end.

[Jeff Bilbro]

Ok, so I think I'll go for the using the WaterLox Original Sealer Finish instead of the polyurethane. Does it rub out well? My intent is a satin finish that doesn't look plasticy (ie - not terribly DIY).

So this, right?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=31388&site=ROCKLER

Anyone have experience with using this as a grain filler?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2003

Or anything better out there for filling oak grain?


Thanks for the tip on performing the process on the bottom first! I usually think of things like that after the fact :)

[Prashun Patel]

If you want to rub out, personally, I'd use the gloss product Waterlox Original GLOSS, the full varnish.
I've only used Behlens Pore-o-pac filler

[John TenEyck]

I don't see a reason to seal the stain with shellac prior to your OB varnish, but if you do either spray it, wipe it, or use a bristle brush. I have never found a foam brush that doesn't turn soft in about 30 seconds. For large surfaces I most always spray on shellac. If you don't have spray equipment you could use rattle can shellac. It's dewaxed and works well.

John

[Prashun Patel]

John's right - no foam for the shellac. In fact, if you don't have access to spray equipment, then you can just skip the shellac. To convince yourself of this, on your test pieces when you start applying the varnish, examine the rag for for signs of lifting or dab the brush on a clean towel. Even if you get a little lifting, inspect the surface; if it makes no visible difference, then a little lifting is ok. But, knowing it does lift will inform how gently you wipe or brush the real thing. The longer you wait for the stain the dry, the less it'll lift.

[Jeff Monson]

I'd skip the shellac also, not really needed IMO. I'd go with Waterlox also, Prashun seems to have the brushing technique down quite well, I seem to have different results :( I have my best luck spraying Waterlox, for me its super easy to spray. I spoke with a tech at Waterlox a couple months ago about building a finish with Waterlox (I was finishing a Walnut slab that had some pores showing). Here is how he described the process to me, BTW I wanted a satin finish also. He suggested starting with 2 coats of original sealer, followed by as many coats of high gloss finish (sanding back between coats to fill pores) as needed. Once I had achieved a satisfactory level finish, then 2 last coats of original sealer as it has a satin finish. He said the high gloss finish will build better as it is not thinned as much as the original sealer. It worked well for me, the biggest PITA for me was waiting for the high gloss to dry, so I could sand it back (Watelox is not a super fast drying product like lacquers are, plus I'm as impatient as a 2 year old). I came out with a nice level surface and a satin finish.

[Jeff Bilbro]

Thanks so much for everyone's suggestions. Here is the process I'll use, then:

believe the process will be:



Sand up to 180 grit
Use wood filler and fill open grain on table top - Behlens Pore-o-Pac
Sand again
Stain with a dark oil-based stain
Wipe on 3-5 coats of Waterlox Original Formula with light sanding between coats



I'll post pics along the way.


Thanks again!

-Jeff

[Prashun Patel]

Sounds great. I would suggest modifying step 5:

(I'm assuming you mean Original Sealer Finish, Original Formula).

Wipe on 3 coats.
Sand gently with 400.
Wipe on 3 coats
Sand gently with 600
Wipe on additional coats and stop when sheen looks even.

Know two more things:

1) Waterlox OSF looks glossy at first. it takes a while until the gloss settles down. The final resting place is closer to semigloss than satin.
2) Applying many, thin coats results in a surface that is difficult to rub out without rubbing through. So, if you don't like the surface after a few months, you'd probably do best to apply full strength satin on top, or gloss and then rub it down. But don't let this scare you; the OSF settles down nicely.

[Kent A Bathurst]

FWIW -

Creature of habit. Early on, I had problems with dye [not stain] that were resolved with a 1# - 1.5 # seal coat of shellac. Ultra blonde-scale. I apply it with a padding cloth - not the actual detailed padding technique, but I use that pad and that basic stroke.

So, I always do this after any coat of any material that adds color. Assume sometimes it is not necessary, but let's me seal one coat off from the next.

Also - not sure what the results would be from trying to rub out a satin or semi-gloss. If you intend to rub it out to achieve some ideal level of gloss, then start with full gloss and work your way though it. You can't take satin to any higher level of gloss, is my understanding.

[Scott Holmes]

Thanks so much for everyone's suggestions. Here is the process I'll use, then:

believe the process will be:



Sand up to 180 grit
Use wood filler and fill open grain on table top - Behlens Pore-o-Pac
Sand again
Stain with a dark oil-based stain
Wipe on 3-5 coats of Waterlox Original Formula with light sanding between coats



I'll post pics along the way.


Thanks again!

-Jeff

A better process would be...



Sand up to 180 grit
Stain with a dark oil-based stain
Seal with shellac (this step keeps the tinted filler in the next step from bleeding into the wood)
Use wood filler (tinted just a bit darker than you overall color) and fill open grain on table top - Behlens Pore-o-Pac
Seal with shellac
Wipe on 3-5 coats of Waterlox Original Formula with light sanding after about 5 coats. No need to sand between wipe-on-coats of Waterlox. 5 coats of wipe on is not enough varnish for a table top. 9-12 would be more like it.

[Jeff Bilbro]

A better process would be...



Sand up to 180 grit
Stain with a dark oil-based stain
Seal with shellac (this step keeps the tinted filler in the next step from bleeding into the wood)
Use wood filler (tinted just a bit darker than you overall color) and fill open grain on table top - Behlens Pore-o-Pac
Seal with shellac
Wipe on 3-5 coats of Waterlox Original Formula with light sanding after about 5 coats. No need to sand between wipe-on-coats of Waterlox. 5 coats of wipe on is not enough varnish for a table top. 9-12 would be more like it.



Is one coat of shellac enough for before and after the wood filler? I plan to apply it with a brush.

Got the top nearly ready for finish - getting a slight round over on the edges and sanding.

[Jeff Bilbro]

Update on this project-

I thought everything was done properly - 8 coats of wiped on Waterlox with light sanding between every other coat or so. Finish looked really smooth and felt I'd done a good job. I setup the table in our living room on Saturday and decided to apply a paste wax to give a little more water protection. I'm guessing I shouldn't have done that as the top had the last coat applied 7 days prior. I *think* that's what's causing my issues - top appears really smudgy and a bit cloudy in some spots. It also seems to be scratching pretty easily - lightly dragging causes visible scrapes.

My question - should I try ammonia + water to wipe off the wax and then add some more coats of the waterlox? Or just give it time and it will harden more?

I can't tell you how much I DON'T want to have to redo the whole top...

Here's a pic of it before moving it inside.

268343

[John TenEyck]

Oh no, don't use ammonia - that stuff is deadly on many finishes. If you want to remove the wax uses mineral spirits. Wax offers no real benefit as far as water protection goes. It does give a nice silky feel but, as you've found, it smudges easily.

John

[Jeff Bilbro]

So you think I'd be ok to take it back out to the garage, clean it thoroughly with mineral spirits, and give it a few more coats of the waterlox OSF followed by a coat of waterlox satin? I'm worried about adhesion issues from having that wax on there, but I guess if I can get it cleaned off well enough...

[John TenEyck]

Why do you want to put more coats on it? Didn't you say you've put 8 or 12 on it already? I don't see the need, but if that's what you want to do just wipe it MS or, better yet, Naptha several times. Then wipe it one last time using a fresh piece of paper towel for each pass over the top. Then scuff sand it with 320 grit and apply however many more coats you want. If you want a satin look, I would just rub what you have now with 0000 steel wool, or the equivalent synthetic pad.

John

[Mark W Pugh]

You might consider looking through the info on the Waterlox web site. Great info on application.

[Jeff Bilbro]

I want to add more because it seems as if I applied the paste wax too soon (7 days) and the finish seems to be scratching really easily. I put 8 coats on. It is still pretty shiny - going to wait a bit to see if the glossiness mellows enough for me before I decide to add a few coats of satin.

Thanks again,
-Jeff

[Jeff Bilbro]

I thought I'd followed it pretty well, but not happy with how it's wearing after a couple days of use. As I mentioned in my last reply, I think I waxed it too soon :(

This was a great resource to follow - http://www.waterlox.com/uploads/docs/4.11%20Wiping%20Varnish_The%20Only%20Finish%20You' ll%20Ever%20Need_FWW__634474589121325461.pdf

[John TenEyck]

I believe Waterlox will get less glossy the more it cures; certainly it WILL get hard and more scratch resistant. I suggest you wait a month before deciding whether or not to add more coats. And, as I mentioned, if you want a satin finish rub it with 0000 steel wool.

John