Comparing chisel steels

[Derek Cohen]

Call it multitasking :) While building the current project, a blanket chest, I took the time to do a few reviews, one of which was to compare 4 different chisels .. 5 if you add in the chisel that tidied up after some of the others.


The wood used is 3/4" thick Curly Marri. This is hard - not quite as hard as Jarrah overall (although sections were very hard indeed), but i can only describe it as "chewy". That is, it is extremely interlocked and it resisted attempts to drive a chisel through it. Where Jarrah is very hard, it is also brittle and breaks away. This Curly Marri just did not let go. Firewood. Beautiful firewood.


I did not set out to compare chisels when I began dovetailing the sides. This thought occurred to me when I was into the first side. I decided to continue as I had begun: using two chisels, one for the tails, and one for the pins. The tails would be comfortably cut only by pushing the 1/4" chisel (frankly, anything wider would not penetrate the wood). The 3/4" chisel would be used with a mallet (I did persevere with pushing where possible, and now have a painful rotator cuff for my pains).


The boards are 20" across. There are 13 tails 3/4" at the baseline (the ratio is 1:6 for those curious), and 14 pins with 1" at the back and 1 1/4" at the front.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel1_zps3d6df953.jpg


Most of the dovetail waste was removed with a fretsaw, and it was the remainder that constituted the test material ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel3_zps4895c4a6.jpg


The chisels used (in order) were the Veritas PM-V11, Stanley #750 (which is a HCS similar to O1, but I am unsure of the specific type), Koyamaichi white steel, and Blue Spruce A2. All the bevels of the 1/4" chisels were ground and honed at 30 degrees, while all the 3/4" chisels bar the Veritas were also at 30 degrees. The Veritas was at 25 degrees (why? Because I use it that way and did not think to change the bevel angle).


Paring ended when the chisel could not easily cut and then failed a pine end grain attempt ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel6_zps0706644e.jpg


All dovetails were pared half-way through one side, then the board was flipped over and the other side done. In this way a board may be said to have 26 tail and 28 pin cuts.


The tails were cut first.


Both the PM-V11 and the White Steel had no difficulty paring 26 cuts (both sides of the tails, an example is above).


The Stanley could only manage 3 cuts ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel8_zps824a7cc0.jpg


The A2 did a little better with 7 cuts ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel14_zps3952ccac.jpg


With the 3/4" chisel on the pin board, both the PM-V11 and the White Steel were able to do most of both sides. 22 1/2" (out of 31 1/2") of pin length for the PM-V11 and 27 1/2" of pin length for the White Steel.


PM-V11 cleaning up ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel12_zps995b41d0.jpg


White Steel at work (I managed to push these, then required a hammer to continue) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel13_zpse8c69d95.jpg


The Stanley managed 4" in all, failing on the 5th ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel10_zps3241037b.jpg


The A2 completed 7" ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel15_zpsef56cf89.jpg


What of the fifth chisel I mentioned early on? To clean up when a chisel stopped working, I used a Funmatsu-Nezumi-Haisu (from Tools from Japan). This is a PM-HSS chisel. A right royal pain in the bottom to sharpen, but it holds an edge like nothing else ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel16_zps7fe3c992.jpg


Summing up: The PM-V11 and the White Steel really do deliver. The gap between them and the A2 and O1/HCS is very large. There is no appreciable extra effort to hone the steels when used with modern waterstones, such as Shaptons (used here) or Sigmas.


It must be emphasised that this was about the steel, not the chisels. What do I mean by that? A chisel is not simply a lump of steel with a handle. Edge-holding is sometimes less important than balance and control and comfort when in use. The Stanley here is one of my favourite users as I customed the handles for myself. The Blue Spruce are one of the nicest chisels around, which arguably the best handles made on this planet. The Veritas handles are really excellent as well, and the balance in use is surprisingly good, and they are lighter than they look, but not as light as the BS. All good chisels. It is only when one works mongrel wood that good steel becomes a dominating factor.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Update4_zps46348cde.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[David Weaver]

Definitely results as expected (though I have no reference for a V11 chisel).

Now it's probably clear why, as I've said several times, when stu told me he was going to talk to KI before he picked up their chisels, I begged him to carry them. Unfortunately, I already was stocked up and only got a parer since, but I knew it would be better for anyone else who was shopping bench chisels in the $60 per range. It is not until the v11 chisels that anything western matches it, despite detractors who like to claim that there is no difference between western tool steel and the higher carbon and cleaner hitachi blade steels.

I have one of the Funmatsu-Nezumi chisels that you described, and it's like rubber on the stones, but it yields without any fight to diamonds (no surprise, nothing resist diamonds). Anyone sharpening with diamonds can use them without problem. Someone using marginal waterstones will want to get diamonds yet. I haven't used mine enough to form opinions about better or worse practically vs. white steel (use time vs. time on the stones vs. perceived sharpness and ease of work), but I'd imagine it'll be impossible to kill it.

The budget semi-hss chisels that come from stu's koyama section are really nice (same principle with what stones to use, though, no marginal stones, but you can grind the semi-hss chisels), and are why I haven't gotten to the funmatsu chisel yet. I purchased a pair of those from stu, and to my surprise, they have a super nice lightweight profile, but no lack in toughness. Easy peasy sharpening with a diamond medium stone and the shapton for a finisher (does fine in that role where it's not expected to remove much).

Still, the white steel has the appeal that it sharpens easily on everything, even on oilstones. KI does such a nice job on what are priced as relatively inexpensive chisels no BS full tilt gear, but they are sneaky priced, because they are as good as a lot of chisels that are much more expensive than they are.

At any rate, when you get into harder wood, the difference between the KI white (carbon) steel chisels and the vintage US and english carbon steel chisels comes out exactly as you've shown it - the gap is very wide, yet the white steel chisels are only very marginally harder to sharpen.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Derek,

Great way to answer the questions on so many minds.

jtk

[Dave Beauchesne]

Derek: Another well thought out comparison - Thank You !!

[Chris Griggs]

A good analysis and commentary Derek. Really gets to the heart of things.

[Charlie Stanford]

Call it multitasking :) While building the current project, a blanket chest, I took the time to do a few reviews, one of which was to compare 4 different chisels .. 5 if you add in the chisel that tidied up after some of the others.


The wood used is 3/4" thick Curly Marri. This is hard - not quite as hard as Jarrah overall (although sections were very hard indeed), but i can only describe it as "chewy". That is, it is extremely interlocked and it resisted attempts to drive a chisel through it. Where Jarrah is very hard, it is also brittle and breaks away. This Curly Marri just did not let go. Firewood. Beautiful firewood.


I did not set out to compare chisels when I began dovetailing the sides. This thought occurred to me when I was into the first side. I decided to continue as I had begun: using two chisels, one for the tails, and one for the pins. The tails would be comfortably cut only by pushing the 1/4" chisel (frankly, anything wider would not penetrate the wood). The 3/4" chisel would be used with a mallet (I did persevere with pushing where possible, and now have a painful rotator cuff for my pains).


The boards are 20" across. There are 13 tails 3/4" at the baseline (the ratio is 1:6 for those curious), and 14 pins with 1" at the back and 1 1/4" at the front.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel1_zps3d6df953.jpg


Most of the dovetail waste was removed with a fretsaw, and it was the remainder that constituted the test material ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel3_zps4895c4a6.jpg


The chisels used (in order) were the Veritas PM-V11, Stanley #750 (which is a HCS similar to O1, but I am unsure of the specific type), Koyamaichi white steel, and Blue Spruce A2. All the bevels of the 1/4" chisels were ground and honed at 30 degrees, while all the 3/4" chisels bar the Veritas were also at 30 degrees. The Veritas was at 25 degrees (why? Because I use it that way and did not think to change the bevel angle).


Paring ended when the chisel could not easily cut and then failed a pine end grain attempt ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel6_zps0706644e.jpg


All dovetails were pared half-way through one side, then the board was flipped over and the other side done. In this way a board may be said to have 26 tail and 28 pin cuts.


The tails were cut first.


Both the PM-V11 and the White Steel had no difficulty paring 26 cuts (both sides of the tails, an example is above).


The Stanley could only manage 3 cuts ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel8_zps824a7cc0.jpg


The A2 did a little better with 7 cuts ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel14_zps3952ccac.jpg


With the 3/4" chisel on the pin board, both the PM-V11 and the White Steel were able to do most of both sides. 22 1/2" (out of 31 1/2") of pin length for the PM-V11 and 27 1/2" of pin length for the White Steel.


PM-V11 cleaning up ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel12_zps995b41d0.jpg


White Steel at work (I managed to push these, then required a hammer to continue) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel13_zpse8c69d95.jpg


The Stanley managed 4" in all, failing on the 5th ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel10_zps3241037b.jpg


The A2 completed 7" ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel15_zpsef56cf89.jpg


What of the fifth chisel I mentioned early on? To clean up when a chisel stopped working, I used a Funmatsu-Nezumi-Haisu (from Tools from Japan). This is a PM-HSS chisel. A right royal pain in the bottom to sharpen, but it holds an edge like nothing else ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel16_zps7fe3c992.jpg


Summing up: The PM-V11 and the White Steel really do deliver. The gap between them and the A2 and O1/HCS is very large. There is no appreciable extra effort to hone the steels when used with modern waterstones, such as Shaptons (used here) or Sigmas.


It must be emphasised that this was about the steel, not the chisels. What do I mean by that? A chisel is not simply a lump of steel with a handle. Edge-holding is sometimes less important than balance and control and comfort when in use. The Stanley here is one of my favourite users as I customed the handles for myself. The Blue Spruce are one of the nicest chisels around, which arguably the best handles made on this planet. The Veritas handles are really excellent as well, and the balance in use is surprisingly good, and they are lighter than they look, but not as light as the BS. All good chisels. It is only when one works mongrel wood that good steel becomes a dominating factor.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Update4_zps46348cde.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

Let me know if you have enough scrap left over to make a small box -- candle box or something similar. I'd like to have some of this (shipping on my dime of course) to see what all the kerfuffle is about. PM me when the project wraps up. I have a little theory that I'd like to test and I think this species would be perfect.

Cheers.

[Dale Murray]

Well crap. My birthday is coming up and I fully intended to have my wife buy me the Stanley chisels. A review I read said, basically, they were the best chisel until one jumped to the high dollar sets. Basically, under $250-300 Stanley, if budget allows more then Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Latinum clad chisels (Start Trek reference).

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, well done Derek. Good to see a chisel review that isn't all balance ,color ,and handle shape.

[Archie England]

for those of use who have "invested" in A2 or vintage chisels, this is depressingly wonderful news :)!

Very grateful for the insight....Truly.

[Derek Cohen]

Well crap. My birthday is coming up and I fully intended to have my wife buy me the Stanley chisels. A review I read said, basically, they were the best chisel until one jumped to the high dollar sets. Basically, under $250-300 Stanley, if budget allows more then Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Latinum clad chisels (Start Trek reference).

Hi Dale

The Stanley used were the vintage #750 steel, not the modern one now on sale. I cannot comment about the modern ones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Just wanted to say thanks, I enjoyed it, I know it takes time to write.

[Jim Matthews]

Looking at that battalion of tails, I now understand why pocket screws were invented.

I just managed a decent little box with only two tails, three pins.
It was a struggle. Fifty-six tails?

This article is misleading - the chisel steel is the least interesting part of what you've shown, here.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Looking at that battalion of tails, I now understand why pocket screws were invented.

You know it :-)

I am getting to the final stages of my computer desk. I have the main hutch carcass, desktop, and two drawer carcasses finished, all done using pocket screws. Well, the tops are not secured with pocket screws, but they are screwed in place to deal with wood movement. This part went together pretty fast.


I just managed a decent little box with only two tails, three pins.
It was a struggle. Fifty-six tails?

When you said that, I counted the tails on the six drawers for the drawers in my desk that I am currently building. 122 tails. I never thought about it, no wonder it took so long. No wonder some of my friends told me I am crazy for not just using a jig.

What I can say is that I am must faster and better today than I was two months ago... I also learned that cutting dovetails in hard maple for both sides must be more precise than hard maple on one side and poplar on the other :eek:

My dovetails do not look as nice as Derek's!


This article is misleading - the chisel steel is the least interesting part of what you've shown, here.

I agree completely, and it seems to be the case with everything that he builds, amazing stuff to see.

[Paul McGaha]

Not to suggest running out and buying the newest thing that comes out every time but I do think I'm going to order a couple of Veritas PM-V11 chisels and give them a try.

PHM

[Chris Hachet]

How do the Lie Nielson Chisels compare? I just bought my first two Lie Nielson chisels (first Lie Nielson products) and was very pleased. Making me rethink buying vintage Planes and such to buying new Lie Nielson's....

[David Weaver]

The A-2 Lie Nielsens would probably behave similar to the blue spruce, they are similar hardness spec. The O-1 LN's would probably also fare better than the stanley chisels and be similar to the A2s, maybe a little better.

If you're not dovetailing hickory over here in the US, you won't see your chisels failing as quickly. The LN chisels are good chisels.

[Tony Shea]

As Derek and Dave have pointed out, if you own or are planning on buying some A2 or even O1 chisels such as those offered from LN, LV, Blue Spruce then don't let this comparison deter you. I own some A2 LN's, KI white steels, LV PMV11's, and many vintage chisels of unknown steel compositions. I use all of them all the time and really don't notice a tremendous difference. But most of my work is not in woods such as Jarrah and whatever else is basically like chiseling a rock. Especially the LN A2 chisels I find very nice to use. I am a big fan of these chisels and really like the shape and balance, they hold an edge perfectly well for most tasks and I find myself reaching for my LN 3/4" more than any other chisel I own.

That is not to say that Derek's post isn't accurate, I believe it to be 100% accurate. My KI's just go on forever without needing to be touched up and as long as I keep a strop near by they rarely see any waterstones.

My PMV11 chisels I think need to be honed down a bit more as I believe I'm still in the chippy metal at the tip. They haven't been great for me yet but am sure they will come around. I use a PMV11 blade in my LA Jack for shooting and the blade just goes on forever so I know the steel is great.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I do think I'm going to order a couple of Veritas PM-V11 chisels and give them a try.


What sizes are you thinking of getting?

[Brian Kent]

What does KI mean? Is that a kind of chisel, a maker's name, a vender's name…?

[David Weaver]

Koyama-Ichi. He is a japanese maker in the traditional sense (not a brand with lots of makers floating around the shop as far as i know). I mention that only because a lot of the small remaining makers take a lot of pride in their work (most of the time it shows in the price, though. Not so much with KI).

Lee Valley and Tools from Japan both carry his stuff.

[Paul McGaha]

What sizes are you thinking of getting?

I thought I'd try some of the smaller ones, like 1/4" and 3/8".

[Tony Wilkins]

D'oh - now this thread has me reconsidering what bench chisel set to build up.

[Chris Griggs]

What does KI mean? Is that a kind of chisel, a maker's name, a vender's name…?

DO NOT by any Koyama-ichi chisels. They will make you want to replace ALL of your chisels with them. :) They're like Lays potato chips...

[Chris Hachet]

The A-2 Lie Nielsens would probably behave similar to the blue spruce, they are similar hardness spec. The O-1 LN's would probably also fare better than the stanley chisels and be similar to the A2s, maybe a little better.

If you're not dovetailing hickory over here in the US, you won't see your chisels failing as quickly. The LN chisels are good chisels.I am loving them...for the last 20 years or so I've used Miefer Spanish chisels, hard, and take awhile to sharpen, but hold a decent edge. The LN chisels take a better edge, and just plain work better. I see a few spent paychecks winding up in Warren, Maine....in the very near future.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I thought I'd try some of the smaller ones, like 1/4" and 3/8".

I have the full set and am waiting for them to release a 1/8", which I heard was in the works....

[Jim Matthews]

Not to steal DC's thunder, but I think the handle is rarely considered in buying chisels.

I can't stand hoops, in my palm as I often "nudge" the chisel along without a mallet.

Since I use a soft face mallet, hoops are a precaution I need not take.

Maybe if I worked with gnarly timber, a keener edge with harder steel would be an asset.
As it is, I can get the basic stuff sharp again and it's nothing special.

I could use these all day, and never feel they're unbalanced or digging into my soft amateur hands.

[Kees Heiden]

You can get the KI without a hoop too. Or you could just remove the hoop and shape the end with a rasp to you liking. Or even make your own custom handle. See, no reason to avoid sending your money to Japan. :D

Personally I am contemplating a PM-V11 planeblade for endgrain. I don't see much use for this steel in my shop for other tasks though, especially not at that price. Nowadays I prefer European wood types.

[Jim Neeley]

In response to the OP's question, I'm going to offer up what I'm at least hoping most here will agree on.

There are chisels that are sub-par and typically fail quickly and there are others that generally hold up well with certain ones faring better than others in certain uses (low bevel angle vs, gnarly grain, ease of sharpening, etc.).

You've heard a lot of discussion here on O1 vs A2 vs PM-V11, white steel, blue steel and US vs Japanese style chisels.

We each have individual preferences but I believe that once we are talking good chisels (such as those discussed here), you will be quite happy with any of them, as the difference between them is relatively *small* for most uses in comparison with getting poor quality chisels.

Within that pool, consider heavily the size and shape of the handle and how it fits in your hand and it's balance, as those will affect your use (and pleasure in using) the chisel.

Jim in Alaska

[Chris Griggs]

In response to the OP's question, I'm going to offer up what I'm at least hoping most here will agree on.

There are chisels that are sub-par and typically fail quickly and there are others that generally hold up well with certain ones faring better than others in certain uses (low bevel angle vs, gnarly grain, ease of sharpening, etc.).

You've heard a lot of discussion here on O1 vs A2 vs PM-V11, white steel, blue steel and US vs Japanese style chisels.

We each have individual preferences but I believe that once we are talking good chisels (such as those discussed here), you will be quite happy with any of them, as the difference between them is relatively *small* for most uses in comparison with getting poor quality chisels.

Within that pool, consider heavily the size and shape of the handle and how it fits in your hand and it's balance, as those will affect your use (and pleasure in using) the chisel.

Jim in Alaska

Wise words indeed.

[Pat Barry]

Derek, You are one man that certainly doesn't need a simple dovetailing jig --> You are a dovetailing machine. I'd love to see the finished product of this beautiful work. Thanks for sharing.




Call it multitasking :) While building the current project, a blanket chest, I took the time to do a few reviews, one of which was to compare 4 different chisels .. 5 if you add in the chisel that tidied up after some of the others.


The wood used is 3/4" thick Curly Marri. This is hard - not quite as hard as Jarrah overall (although sections were very hard indeed), but i can only describe it as "chewy". That is, it is extremely interlocked and it resisted attempts to drive a chisel through it. Where Jarrah is very hard, it is also brittle and breaks away. This Curly Marri just did not let go. Firewood. Beautiful firewood.


I did not set out to compare chisels when I began dovetailing the sides. This thought occurred to me when I was into the first side. I decided to continue as I had begun: using two chisels, one for the tails, and one for the pins. The tails would be comfortably cut only by pushing the 1/4" chisel (frankly, anything wider would not penetrate the wood). The 3/4" chisel would be used with a mallet (I did persevere with pushing where possible, and now have a painful rotator cuff for my pains).


The boards are 20" across. There are 13 tails 3/4" at the baseline (the ratio is 1:6 for those curious), and 14 pins with 1" at the back and 1 1/4" at the front.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel1_zps3d6df953.jpg


Most of the dovetail waste was removed with a fretsaw, and it was the remainder that constituted the test material ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel3_zps4895c4a6.jpg


The chisels used (in order) were the Veritas PM-V11, Stanley #750 (which is a HCS similar to O1, but I am unsure of the specific type), Koyamaichi white steel, and Blue Spruce A2. All the bevels of the 1/4" chisels were ground and honed at 30 degrees, while all the 3/4" chisels bar the Veritas were also at 30 degrees. The Veritas was at 25 degrees (why? Because I use it that way and did not think to change the bevel angle).


Paring ended when the chisel could not easily cut and then failed a pine end grain attempt ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel6_zps0706644e.jpg


All dovetails were pared half-way through one side, then the board was flipped over and the other side done. In this way a board may be said to have 26 tail and 28 pin cuts.


The tails were cut first.


Both the PM-V11 and the White Steel had no difficulty paring 26 cuts (both sides of the tails, an example is above).


The Stanley could only manage 3 cuts ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel8_zps824a7cc0.jpg


The A2 did a little better with 7 cuts ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel14_zps3952ccac.jpg


With the 3/4" chisel on the pin board, both the PM-V11 and the White Steel were able to do most of both sides. 22 1/2" (out of 31 1/2") of pin length for the PM-V11 and 27 1/2" of pin length for the White Steel.


PM-V11 cleaning up ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel12_zps995b41d0.jpg


White Steel at work (I managed to push these, then required a hammer to continue) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel13_zpse8c69d95.jpg


The Stanley managed 4" in all, failing on the 5th ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel10_zps3241037b.jpg


The A2 completed 7" ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel15_zpsef56cf89.jpg


What of the fifth chisel I mentioned early on? To clean up when a chisel stopped working, I used a Funmatsu-Nezumi-Haisu (from Tools from Japan). This is a PM-HSS chisel. A right royal pain in the bottom to sharpen, but it holds an edge like nothing else ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Steel%20comparison/Steel16_zps7fe3c992.jpg


Summing up: The PM-V11 and the White Steel really do deliver. The gap between them and the A2 and O1/HCS is very large. There is no appreciable extra effort to hone the steels when used with modern waterstones, such as Shaptons (used here) or Sigmas.


It must be emphasised that this was about the steel, not the chisels. What do I mean by that? A chisel is not simply a lump of steel with a handle. Edge-holding is sometimes less important than balance and control and comfort when in use. The Stanley here is one of my favourite users as I customed the handles for myself. The Blue Spruce are one of the nicest chisels around, which arguably the best handles made on this planet. The Veritas handles are really excellent as well, and the balance in use is surprisingly good, and they are lighter than they look, but not as light as the BS. All good chisels. It is only when one works mongrel wood that good steel becomes a dominating factor.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Blanket%20Chest/Update4_zps46348cde.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Not to steal DC's thunder, but I think the handle is rarely considered in buying chisels.

....

You are correct, Jim. I have discussed this factor a number of times and in similar, related contexts ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview.html

Keep in mind my concluding comments ... "It must be emphasised that this was about the steel, not the chisels. .... A chisel is not simply a lump of steel with a handle. Edge-holding is sometimes less important than balance and control and comfort when in use". In other words, handles are not forgotten, but not the focus here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

[snipped] In other words, handles are not forgotten, but not the focus here.

The comparison of the steels is an important and welcome endeavor. Thanks for doing this Derek.

For me and my arthritis, the handles are more important as long as the steel isn't junk.

Maybe one day some of the "new steel" chisels will be in order for me.

My lesson of late is with cedar. One of the benchmarks of sharp is to pare pine end grain. Cedar appears to be more difficult.

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

Summing up: The PM-V11 and the White Steel really do deliver. The gap between them and the A2 and O1/HCS is very large. There is no appreciable extra effort to hone the steels when used with modern waterstones, such as Shaptons (used here) or Sigmas.

Ok, you've convinced me. I've ordered a set of the Veritas chisels.

Thanks for the effort, much appreciated.

[Paul McGaha]

I ordered a 3/8" and a 3/4". Thank's Derek and the rest of you guys for your comments.

PHM

[Mike Holbrook]

I wonder how a "modern" forged US chisel, I am thinking of Barr, might stand up to this sort of test? Certainly the Barr chisels lean "heavily" toward the heavy/hammered type uses. Barr's specialty seems to be chisels for timber framing but they obviously make "cabinet makers" chisels too.

I am also wondering if the Veritas chisels would be considered more of a paring vs heavy use chisel. Certainly these chisels could be used both ways. I am just wondering where they find the closest fit. Seems like Derek suggests they are not far from the Blue Spruce chisels in feel which is why I am thinking they might lean more towards more delicate work? I think the Japanese chisels are designed more for heavy use, although as one poster mentions different handles could be fitted that might make them a little more "comfortable for close hand work?

[David Weaver]

Their (barr) potential isn't going to be the same as the japanese chisels for two reasons: 1, the blade steel used (apparently O1) is not as good of quality or as high in carbon as hitachi blade steel used in most japanese chisels, and 2, they aren't laminated construction so terminal hardness can't be as high.

This came up in another forum, I can't link to it, but the only comment from a barr owner was that they didn't excel at edge holding with the supposition that timber framing tools are the focus.

[Derek Cohen]

I wonder how a "modern" forged US chisel, I am thinking of Barr, might stand up to this sort of test? Certainly the Barr chisels lean "heavily" toward the heavy/hammered type uses. Barr's specialty seems to be chisels for timber framing but they obviously make "cabinet makers" chisels too.

I am also wondering if the Veritas chisels would be considered more of a paring vs heavy use chisel. Certainly these chisels could be used both ways. I am just wondering where they find the closest fit. Seems like Derek suggests they are not far from the Blue Spruce chisels in feel which is why I am thinking they might lean more towards more delicate work? I think the Japanese chisels are designed more for heavy use, although as one poster mentions different handles could be fitted that might make them a little more "comfortable for close hand work?

Hi Mike

The Veritas chisels are clearly bench chisels, that is, they are a jack-of-all-trades style. They can do most things pretty well and they are balanced and strongly made: chop, pare, dovetail. But I would not call them paring chisels - they are too heavy and thick in the blade. They are not mortice chisels - the blades are bevel edges and have very fine lands. Veritas will be bringing out paring chisels, although I think the next series are butt chisels.

The Blue Spruce are much finer/thinner in the blade. They feel lighter. I think of them as short paring chisels or detail chisels. With regards feel, the Veritas have more in common with the LN than the BS.

Japanese chisels give the impression that they are designed for heavy use because they are hooped and used with a hammer (gennou). However, this is more about control than heavy work. Yes, some Japanese bench chisels are for heavy work and get beat on - in the same way that Western bench and firmer chisels get beat on - but one can exert a lot of control over the chisel with a gennou. It is just the way the Japanese chisels are used, and some of the chisels - such as the Koyamaichi dovetail chisels - should be thought of as light bench chisels. They probably have more in common with the BS than the Veritas.

Early on I wrote that the review was about the steel and not the chisels. Using chisels is more about you (and your preferred method of working) than the steel, per se. Consider how you like to work. Alternatively, this is a case for more than one set of chisels :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the input David & Derek. I typed my note in a hurry this AM before a class I was rushing to and could have been much clearer. I realize that the Veritas chisels are classified as bench chisels. It just seemed to me from what I read that they lean toward the lighter and more nimble side compared to most bench chisels. The design of the steel to handle connection would also suggest that they are designed to stand up to being struck though. I knew the Blue Spruce chisels were popular for paring chores. I did not realize the BS chisels were as much lighter in the blade as they apparently are. I missed the recent Atlanta wood show so I am not likely to get the chance to try out the Blue Spruce, Veritas or any of the Japanese chisels.


I have a few Ashley Isles chisels and the basic Barr "carpenter's" set. I bought the Barr chisels from Highland Woodworking at their annual 20% off on one non powered tool sale so they cost me about the same as most of the "better" US chisels. I made a post about chisels that could stand up to being beat on and the Barr's seemed to be the favorite. I have some heavier/larger: dovetails, mortises/tenons...to make for a workbench, sawbench, cutting & assembly table.....I also have plans to build quite a few cabinets with smaller joinery. The idea of chisels that hold an edge longer sounded attractive but none of the chisels I have made it to the comparison so I was not sure mine would be significantly more likely to wear sooner. I thought the Barr chisels might be significantly harder due to the forging, although I know some steel forged for tools is intentionally left "softer, like axe & maul heads.

[Mike Holbrook]

I spend time on knife forums too and I understand there are more significant factors than Rockwell hardness which play into how well an edged tool holds an edge. There are quite a few custom steels being made for knives... that did not exist a decade ago. A few of the US steel manufacturers have begun to find a profit in manufacturing these smaller batches of custom steel in a market where mass manufacturing of the more common steels has moved abroad. The new powdered steels seem to be the big innovation in custom steels. The powdered steels have a much finer "grain" with much less in the way of trash or imperfections, which can translate into less brittleness in the edge. I followed the info. trail on the Veritas steel and finally at the very end they state that it starts as a powdered steel.