An experiment in grain orientation - Architectural Maple/Walnut Lidded Box

[Roger Chandler]

I had so many smallish pieces of wood in my shop that I need to do something with to get them made into something and out of the way.........of course I have a lot of wood I need to process into smallish pieces to replace these..........a never ending cycle it seems. ;)

I also know that the work I do on the lathe is different in some respects than all that flatwork I have done over the years......I speak of kiln dried wood, and basically the wood movement is accounted for when you do your joinery.......i.e. you leave room for expansion and contraction and use certain techniques to accomplish that.

I had this piece of maple from Oregon sent to me recently by Scott Trumbo [thanks Scott!] and the way it was cut meant that the end grain would be on the sides of the box.......and I wanted to combine some walnut for accents and figured I had better try and get the exact same grain alignment with the walnut base, and lid as well. I used Titebond III as the glue on this one.

My experiment is with the rate at which these two woods [both were pretty dry, and I believe them to be air dried] will expand and contract in relation to one another or will they maintain the current equilibrium they now have in relation to one another?

This box may fail.........it may not........I do not know, thus the reason for the experiment. Also, the maple had a side that had some spalting on it, and was softer of course and when sanding the softer side got a little thinner than the other side.......so my ability to sand every imperfection from this wood was cut short......

Even though I have a few hours in this box, I will not be terribly disappointed if it fails.........my initial opinion is that it will not fail, but that remains to be seen. If it does, then it will serve as a self educational experiment that I can derive lessons from for the future, so it is worth it in my opinion.

The finish is in process, and even though it looks pretty good at present, I need to let the finish cure a day or so, then take it back and sand the nibs and reapply the Wood Turners Finish again......it will be slick as glass!

Your comments on the experiment are most welcome, and if you have pointers on grain orientation when mixing woods, the I would love to hear them as well. Even though I have done wood work for the better part of 30 years, I have only turned wood for a few of them and feel like I am still learning! Learn while you turn! :D

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[Chris Studley]

Interesting Roger,
It seems that the grain orientation is similar to what we would have normally on a bowl (if I followed you correctly). Your Lidded boxes are usually end grain hollowed I always assumed that this would be best as far as movement and keeping the lids tight or loose enough. I wonder if that will be an issue here.

Looks nice though, I have done a lid or two on bowls and found that a very minor “dovetailing” interface of the lid and bowl allows for some movement and the lid won’t fall off when looser, and won’t be too tight when tight based on Humidity etc. When I say minor I mean it though. Just enough to keep the friction low but keep a nice “pop” when opening the lid.

Let us know if things go awry…

[Roger Chandler]

Interesting Roger,
It seems that the grain orientation is similar to what we would have normally on a bowl (if I followed you correctly). Your Lidded boxes are usually end grain hollowed I always assumed that this would be best as far as movement and keeping the lids tight or loose enough. I wonder if that will be an issue here.

Looks nice though, I have done a lid or two on bowls and found that a very minor “dovetailing” interface of the lid and bowl allows for some movement and the lid won’t fall off when looser, and won’t be too tight when tight based on Humidity etc. When I say minor I mean it though. Just enough to keep the friction low but keep a nice “pop” when opening the lid.

Let us know if things go awry…

Thank Chris for the tip on the dovetailing interface......good trick!

The way this piece of maple was cut [it arrived at my place this way] dictated that I mount it face grain in the chuck......no other option, and that means the end grain is on the sides of the box. I oriented the walnut the same exact way in the base and lid, and the maple again in the lid the same way.........

I am hoping to see if they will move as a unit, or if the different woods have different rates of expansion/contraction......also the reason I used titebond glue and not CA glue!

[Thom Sturgill]

Maple and walnut have very similar characteristics.

Species Quarter Sawn Rift Sawn
Maple, Red .00137 .00289
Maple, Silver .00102 .00252
Maple, Sugar .00165 .00353
Walnut .00190 .00274

movement is width X percent humidity change X value above

So a 3" box with about a 3 percent humidity change with sugar maple and walnut, both QS

Maple --> 3 x 3 x .00165 = 0.015in
Walnut --> 3 x 3 x .00190 = 0.017in a difference of 0.002in.

I think it will hold. Now if you were using sugar pine (.00099 Q/S ) and Hickory (.00259 Q/S .00411 F/S) I might worry.

[Roger Chandler]

Good info,Thom......thank you! Where do you find such a chart that lists wood movement, might I ask? Google search?

[Chris Studley]

I'd Imagine if they move, they move together. I have seem enough bowls with a contrasting wood at the top rim, and with Titebond, I'd trust the joint. (glued up from dry, probably kiln, wood) since these weren't kiln dried you may see some "Oval-ing" but I would assume the maple/Walnut will play nicely together otherwise.

[Thom Sturgill]

Good info,Thom......thank you! Where do you find such a chart that lists wood movement, might I ask? Google search?

Yep. John Jordan mentions a book in DVD 'The Aesthetics & Properties of Wood' that contains a world of info and if on my 'TO-BUY' list.

[Doug Herzberg]

It's a nice looking box, Roger. I hope it works. My own experiences with maple have involved greener wood and a lot of movement in this orientation. All my walnut is very dry, but I sometimes release internal stresses when turning (or ripping), which result in significant movement.

Maybe it will be like a time lock safe - which can only be opened in certain seasons.

[Roger Chandler]

It's a nice looking box, Roger. I hope it works. My own experiences with maple have involved greener wood and a lot of movement in this orientation. All my walnut is very dry, but I sometimes release internal stresses when turning (or ripping), which result in significant movement.

Maybe it will be like a time lock safe - which can only be opened in certain seasons.

I have a feeling Doug, that this one will be just fine. Segmenters use this technique all the time and their work seems to hold up. My only concern is that I did not use a moisture meter to get the moisture levels and do not know what each one was.

On the fit of the lid........the way I did this is with the grain aligned as exact as I could get them on both woods, and using the Titebond III for the glue is that it will move with the box as a unit and not seperately. I did leave a small bit of room on the overlapping lid.......not a sloppy fit, but not a suction fit either.

Jimmy Clewes at our symposium last year spoke to friction or suction fit lids........he said they are only prized by turners who are anal and that women who purchase most vessels in turning do not want the box to lift off the table with the lid when it is pulled....they consider it improperly turned and a flaw. I think Jimmy Clewes knows a little about this sort of thing!

Thanks Doug, for taking a minute to comment!