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View Full Version : Car buying. Consumer Reports and / or ?????????



Dave Lehnert
06-02-2013, 9:46 PM
Want to research crossover SUV's
Is Consumer Reports worth the $6.95/ month for car buying? Is the web site up to date. IE: how well the new 2013 models are doing.
What other places do you look for car reviews? Top of my list is reliability.

Charles Wiggins
06-02-2013, 11:47 PM
Check your local library. They probably have Consumer Reports either in print or online, or both. I seem to end up using Edmonds.com a lot. FYI: I NEVER buy brand new vehicles. Too much depreciation.

Ken Fitzgerald
06-03-2013, 12:40 AM
As Charles said.....if you have a nearby local library, you can probably find the annual buying guide which has the most recent auto reliability reports, prices etc. I do have an annual account with CR. Since the reports there are based on members feedback, I am a little more comfortable with their reliability reports and I enjoy their tests too.

I haven't bought myself a new vehicle in over 30 years. As stated by Charles, I let someone else pay for the depreciation.

I did buy my wife a new sedan 9 years ago. She often travels long distances alone and I wanted her in a new car, that met her expectations for drivability and mine for reliability.

Mike Circo
06-03-2013, 10:37 AM
I just completed a small SUV / Crossover purchase.

Consumer Reports is sadly a poor resource for new car purchases. The only thing they can offer is relibility numbers on older models. Other than that I found that all their recommendations were not much use.

I had great luck with Edmonds.com, KBB.com and Cars.com. They gave all the stats, expected REAL WORLD purchase costs and durability expectations. If you can wade through the consumer comments on the cars you are interested in, you can gleen some good info from that.

FYI. I purchased a Subaru Outback. Hit the sweetspot between a car and a SUV. Great gas mileage, huge storage space in a smaller car. Coming from 20 years of driving 6 cylinder cars, I'm stunned on the power and effenciy of the 4 cyl/CVT combo. The Outback and new 2014 Forester are worth a look.

Oh, one final word. There have been many reports, unverified by me, that Ford is having a lot of issues with the transmissions on some of their vehicles, the Escape included. Just something to add to your research.

good luck

David Weaver
06-03-2013, 1:28 PM
I like CR because they have actual survey information about reliability, and it isn't some garbage rating like JD power "initial quality" or 2-year reliability ratings (who cares how reliable the car is for two years if you plan to own it for 10?).

The only downside is that if a model changes, CR doesn't have data on new model reliability, and you're guessing a little bit at it.

At this point, I avoid volkswagen's like the plague. I know nobody asked about that, I just feel a kneejerk reaction having owned one myself and then getting one foisted on my by my wife (who purchased it right before we got married). Other than that, I'd avoid anything in a car that's unproven, overly complex or that seems out of the ordinary (ford's ecoboost in trucks seems to be having problems, but there seems to always be lags in fixing things like that when it affects a very large # of vehicles - only on my radar because my FIL bought a truck and was looking at them, but the price premium had him buying something simpler).

Greg Portland
06-03-2013, 2:10 PM
I like to go to the various enthusiast boards for the various manufacturers. A quick search will show if there is a pervasive problem (e.g. 100+ threads on transmission failures, etc.).

David Weaver
06-03-2013, 3:28 PM
I agree. I had read high praise from the ecoboost stuff, and then someone on another forum I read said "anyone else have ecoboost problems? Ford can't get mine right and the mileage isn't what they said it would be".

I quick google of that finds lots of youtube videos and lots of postings in different places, and I think there is a federal probe (not a ford probe) on it now because ford told the dealers it was a problem and never informed owners.

toyota's sludge issue was similar on the v6's- "hey car owners, we have no idea what's wrong with your car, it must be your fault".

Steve Meliza
06-03-2013, 3:48 PM
The problem with CR is that it is based on hindsight and past performance isn't always a good indicator of future performance. Because of this you can't buy a new car based on CR numbers with any expectation of accuracy, especially not if there are recent model changes. What it can give you is a slight indication of reliability on a car 2-3 years old and good statistics on older cars, though I don't think they track enough data to tell you which cars last 100k miles and which go for 200-300k miles. Modern cars are pretty reliable so I'd focus on finding out which makes/models to avoid and which has the best service shop in your area. Reviews for new car dealerships are always about the service because that's where it really counts once you've gotten past the sales department that treats you like royalty.

When I was younger my top concern was the horse power to weight ratio, but as I get older and other people depend on my making it home alive I find safety is top of the list. That's why I drive the 15 MPG truck to work each day rather than the motorcycle, I like to think that my life is worth the extra expense. These days I'm more inclined to do my shopping at the IIHS website (http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx) where their "Top Safety Pick" can help you filter out the noise and focus on the safer cars. I'm more interested in the "Top Safety Pick+" which in the small/mid SUV class is limited to the 2011-2013 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport, 2014 Subaru Forester, and the 2010-2013 Volvo XC60. Of these three only the Subaru and Volvo get top marks in the newly created "Small overlap front test" that models some real world nasty accidents that most car manufacturers are not designing for yet. If need be, I'll call AAA for a tow and pay a repair bill over the "Small overlap front test" safety rating of "marginal" for the extremely popular Honda CR-V that likely rates high on the reliability ratings.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/05/several-compact-crossovers-fail-iihs-small-overlap-test.html

David Weaver
06-03-2013, 4:00 PM
Nothing is guaranteed. The historical data does help you put the odds more in your favor, though, even if you strictly do it by make and model and then observe the models over the various design changes.

There is a very large variance in frequency of repairs for cars historically, even recently, and then on top of that, there's severity (cost) of the repairs. CR gets data annually, and if you pay to belong (which I think is about $26 for the year), you can read their reports on overall reliability data and model by model.

There is definitely some value in the data, or there wouldn't be such an enormous disparity between the different brands in regard to used cars.

Makers trend, too, and the year by year data indicates that (CR mentions that Ford's reliability data is slipping after they had done well to be at the top of domestic, and they can tell you stuff like the 300M having the best of the chrysler reliability in the last year or two in the V-6 and the worst of all of chrysler's in the 300M with the V 8 - as in you can't even rely on a model by model comparison all the time).

I remember when ford was trending up, I was almost willing to go back to a domestic (while my wife went VW before we met, I had gone to japanese and am still there - no repairs since I bought a japanese car in 2005). Unfortunately, my wife's car has cost us over $3000 in non-warranty work in the same period (CR told me beforehand that VW jettas were very unreliable, I dumped mine after learning that the hard way), despite my haggling on the repair work, and despite it having only 50,000 miles in 8 years and being garage kept. When you get the bill for non-warranty work, you'll be wishing it was the tow bill you were paying. You'd probably be willing to pay several tow bills.

(I've been somewhat lucky with the wife's car, when I dumped my 2000 jetta in 2005, it had already had $7,000 of repair work, and I sold it at 55,000 miles. Fortunately, $4000 of it was warranty work. I see that the Jetta is still in the worst category of cars, even based only on last year's data for a new model. The maker has no clue, or just doesn't care. The data has been very valuable for anyone who thinks about a VW and sees it and changes their mind).

The safety data and reliability data should probably be given equal weight. Unfortunately, the reliability data seems to be priced into used cars, and when the economy is bad, it's priced into new cars.

Pat Barry
06-03-2013, 6:48 PM
I would go for a car magazine, Ie car and driver as opposed to consumer reports. Just me, but I don't trust cr for anything but appliances.

Lori Kleinberg
06-03-2013, 11:47 PM
I like Edmunds.com and also use the different vehicle forums. I usually disregard the best and worst opinions and kind of average what is left.

Peter Pedisich
06-04-2013, 12:04 AM
(I've been somewhat lucky with the wife's car, when I dumped my 2000 jetta in 2005, it had already had $7,000 of repair work, and I sold it at 55,000 miles. Fortunately, $4000 of it was warranty work. I see that the Jetta is still in the worst category of cars, even based only on last year's data for a new model. The maker has no clue, or just doesn't care. The data has been very valuable for anyone who thinks about a VW and sees it and changes their mind).

The safety data and reliability data should probably be given equal weight. Unfortunately, the reliability data seems to be priced into used cars, and when the economy is bad, it's priced into new cars.

David,
I wish I could disagree, since I love VW's (and Fords), but the facts bear you out entirely. I have been VERY lucky with my VW's, which I attribute to making sure every model I buy is made in Germany, but I know I'm in the minority. My current car, a 10 year old Jetta GL Wagon, purchased in January 2003, has 129,400 miles and the only things replaced have been the coil (warranty) and the water pump at 90k. I did the front pads and rotors myself for the first time at 109k! not bad for Long Island traffic!
Oh, and i drove it to WIA in 2011 (took 80 west through Western PA!), and it got an avg of 34.9 round trip, not bad for a 5-speed, 2.0 litre spinning at 3500 rpm at highway speeds. It also has the original clutch, alternator, etc...

My 1991 Jetta before that (my wife's for the first 10 years, then mine for 3), racked up 213k miles and the clutch and alternator were original! Repairs to both cars have been minimal.

But... whenever I recommend a car to friends and family I tell them Honda/Toyota to avoid any bad feelings! that says it all.

Brian Elfert
06-04-2013, 9:38 AM
I don't really know how you get reliability ratings on any car if you're looking at cost to own over 10 years or more. Most models are refreshed every 3 to 4 years these days. The oldest cars are barely out of warranty by the time the next model is on the road. Today's cars often have all new engines and transmissions these days to get better MPG. A model that was rock solid in one generation may be total crap the next generation. I've always heard never to buy the first year of a new design to give them tiem to work out the bugs in the second year.

David Weaver
06-04-2013, 9:57 AM
David,
I wish I could disagree, since I love VW's (and Fords), but the facts bear you out entirely. I have been VERY lucky with my VW's, which I attribute to making sure every model I buy is made in Germany, but I know I'm in the minority. My current car, a 10 year old Jetta GL Wagon, purchased in January 2003, has 129,400 miles and the only things replaced have been the coil (warranty) and the water pump at 90k. I did the front pads and rotors myself for the first time at 109k! not bad for Long Island traffic!
Oh, and i drove it to WIA in 2011 (took 80 west through Western PA!), and it got an avg of 34.9 round trip, not bad for a 5-speed, 2.0 litre spinning at 3500 rpm at highway speeds. It also has the original clutch, alternator, etc...

My 1991 Jetta before that (my wives for the first 10 years, then mine for 3, racked up 213k miles and the clutch and alternator were original! Repairs to both cars have been minimal.

But... whenever I recommend a car to friends and family I tell them Honda/Toyota to avoid any bad feelings! that says it all.

I remember the jetta wagon being the only jetta sold here that was actually made in germany. Mine was made in mexico, as was my prior one.

I've heard worse stories about some other cars, though, like some of the buicks about a decade ago going through body control modules like candy.

For lack of a better way to put it with my first jetta, it was a parts problem. The car as a whole seemed fine, except for one thing - the dipstick was not calibrated correctly, which led ultimately to a (warranty) catalytic converter replacement early on. Here's a list of what the car had for trouble, though - from spring 2000 to fall 2004:
* two window motors and three window regulators (there was a class action suit about these, so if I had been out of warranty, they would've been covered. I'd get a new one and a couple of months later, my window would no longer work. I was single at the time, and had trouble even with the right passenger window, which was used about once a month or less)
* coil pack failure at 30,000 miles
* rear brakes at 20k miles (that's not major, but it makes you wonder why you'd need new rear brakes that early)
* mass airflow sensor at 30k miles (warranty was short bumper to bumper and long powertrain, so this wasn't covered but another class action suit eventually got me reimbursed)
* radio failure (*never* saw that before in a newer car)
* cracked plug wires at just over 3 years old
* catalytic converter right at about 4 years old, i do believe that was due to the miscalibrated dipstick facilitating overfilling oil, though

There were a couple of other things that I can't recall, it's been 10 years, I guess. I only got that car serviced at the dealer. In their smugness, they claimed that all of the problems were reasonable things to expect and that I shouldn't let money get in the way of taking proper care of my car.

My wife's car has only been serviced by the dealer to do the timing belt (which on a 1.8T is what I'd describe as "early and often" for the recommended interval). Otherwise, I avoid them. They tried to recommend an additional $1500 of elective work (including $800 to replace a vaccum hose that I could have shipped to my door for $120 - genuine OEM part). I don't know who was putting pressure on them, ownership, maybe. I didn't appreciate it.

You were wise to buy the old 2.0 liter N/A motor. It was probably the only one of the three where the engine and electrical lasted. The TDIs that were bought in my model year had immediate electrical problems in spades.

Paul McGaha
06-04-2013, 10:12 AM
I don't really know how you get reliability ratings on any car if you're looking at cost to own over 10 years or more. Most models are refreshed every 3 to 4 years these days. The oldest cars are barely out of warranty by the time the next model is on the road. Today's cars often have all new engines and transmissions these days to get better MPG. A model that was rock solid in one generation may be total crap the next generation. I've always heard never to buy the first year of a new design to give them tiem to work out the bugs in the second year.

I've also heard the old saying of not buying a car the first year. It's probably true in some cases.

I currently drive a 2006 Dodge Charger R/T that I bought new in 2006. It was the first year of that type of Charger. It's been really good. A pleasure to own and drive. It seems to me that sometimes the first idea is the right idea. And changes are for the worse after that. In the case of my car I also think a Dodge Charger has a lot of a Chrysler 300 in it. Very similar cars and the Chrysler 300 was out first by several years if I'm not mistaken.

I think we've got it pretty good these days as far as the quality of the cars. You can do well with a lot of cars. Ford, Nissan, Toyota just to name a few.

PHM

Stephen Cherry
06-04-2013, 10:22 AM
Is it really that complex? Just get the Toyota. With great resale value, and reliability, you really can't go too far wrong. Plus, they would have a reputation for standing by their products. They had a problem with frame rot on their tundras (or maybe the smaller one), and guess what? They were putting new frames on 10 year old trucks.

Other brands may be good, but the Toyotas in my opinion are the safe bet. Plus, if you are in to American made, they do lots of manufacturing here.

David Weaver
06-04-2013, 10:44 AM
I think it boils down to that simple. The money sense buy is to buy a stripped down toyota (options on any brand never retain value) and you pretty much have to either buy new or 10 years old now. They are good enough that the late model used prices make no sense to me.

Last time I had to visit a body shop, it was a now defunct ford dealer, and the body shop guy used to do mechanical work. He had a 12 year old toyota wagon, and I asked him if he liked it and he said "yeah, every two or three years, I buy a 10 year-old toyota, i drive it for three years and then I sell it for the same price that I bought it."

Very little of the toyota stuff sold over here isn't made in the US. When I bought my last car (scion XB in 2008), after watching $10000 of options in an accord depreciate $7000 in four years, it and the yaris were the only cars on the lot made in japan. The accord I traded in (only because my wife can't drive a stick, and we needed something friendlier to kid hauling) was 70% US content, and never had anything repaired on it in four years, though 4 years should be a pretty low hurdle. One that a lot of unreliable cars still can't get over though.

Pat Barry
06-04-2013, 12:49 PM
My bride bought herself the Toyota Rav 4. Not sure if that is a vehicle you are considering. Its a great little vehicle with one huge exception. I drive it sometimes on longer trips and my 'pet peeve' is that the drivers legroom is woefully inadequate. For my bride its fine, but for me, there is no way to move the seat back far enough to make long distance driving comfortable. I have literally cramped up in significant pain from the cramped leg angle I am stuck at in this machine. Its worse than on an airplane for me. I'm hoping to find a way to unbolt and move the seat backward a few inches. If it were my car I would have done this already, but you know, she doesn't want me fooling with it. Can't blame her I guess.

Cyrus Brewster 7
06-04-2013, 12:52 PM
At this point, I avoid volkswagen's like the plague...

I hope my future experience does not follow yours - last summer I purchased a Passat TDI. Made in Tennessee except for the engine and tranny - Germany. So far (7500 mi) no issues and the millage is fantastic. I get 45+ mi/gal highway with about 35 combined.

As for never buying new because of depreciation... this is not always true. It actually seems to be going the other way more in recent years - especially with fuel efficient vehicles. If you compare a decent used model (no more than 5 years old) with new, you wold be surprised. I would like to put in some comparisons, but I do not have the same data when I was looking. (I first started comparing when gas first went to $4/gallon.)

Last year I was pricing used VW Jetta diesels. New could be had for $23,000, but I was thinking the same thing about depreciation. After 8 months of looking, the only diesel Jettas in my price range ($9000) were 8 - 10 years old with well over 100,000 miles on the odometer. I wanted something under 60,000 miles - that was more than $18,000. I actually found it cheaper to get it new as I am planning to run it into the ground.

BTW - I went with the Passat instead. I can take the family (wife, 3 boys) and all of our stuff from Baltimore to visit my parents in CT on one tank of fuel. nice.

David Weaver
06-04-2013, 3:14 PM
I agree with your analysis on costs, especially if you're buying a car that holds its value very well (or anything that gets good mileage now). Toyota and Honda are hard to get cheap here late model, but you can still get some concessions on new ones if you pick something very commodity-like. How does the engine operate in terms of emissions. Is there a tier standard that applies to it that requires it to use urea?

My first jetta was terrible, pretty much as soon as it hit 20k miles, I had it in the shop every two months for CEL or windows not working, etc, and inspection brought up work to do.

My wife's was OK until about 50k miles, other than coil over plug stuff (you won't have to worry about that), but I can changes those easily and they're $20 per, or $40 for OEM. Then it pitched the water pump (VW jettas have problems with plastic vanes breaking off of water pumps, but I don't think dealer service minds because it generates revenue for them) right around 52k miles, the timing belt and some complementary hardware that goes with it on a VW was changed on interval (it's just short of 60k miles) for about a thousand bucks, and the catalytic converter and some bits just cost me $900. It's fine to write the timing belt off to regular work, but that misses the point that it needs to be done twice as often as a respectable car (it's just $1000 thrown away), and nobody outside of VW wanted to touch it when I asked around.

It also refuses to hold alignment for very long, and I've resigned myself to just replacing tires more often than normal as it's cheaper than taking it to get an alignment every several thousand miles, and we don't drive it that much anymore (that's the best way to minimize repairs).

Compared to my previous car, though, it's better than twice as inexpensive to have. Should I say out loud that the turbo in it has caused no trouble? I figured when the wife first got it that if I had headaches from it, it would be the turbo.

I still don't consider it acceptable for a car with 58k miles. My FIL was moaning about having to do work on a 14 year-old honda with 120k miles.

Cheers to hoping you have a trouble free car. Can't beat that mileage on a car of that size, for sure.

Dave Lehnert
06-04-2013, 5:01 PM
Thanks all the info to think about.

I have a mustang I purchased used less than a year old and got a fantastic deal on it. If I could find a deal like that, It would be the way to go. BUT....... Any used late model car I see for sale or someone I know has purchased, I felt it was close to what I could deal on for new. I also worry I am buying someones else problem.
I keep a car for a long time. My newest is 12 years old. 45K, Oldest 16 1/2 yo. 90K.

Mark P. Miller
06-04-2013, 11:57 PM
I'll pipe up directly answer your original question: In my opinion, the small subscription fee for Consumer Reports online access is well worth it when you are getting ready to make an expensive purchase. It's not perfect, but it is helpful, and really not that expensive compared to the price of a car.

will smith
06-05-2013, 10:58 PM
Check ebay