Shapton 1000 vs Sigma 1200

[Steve Friedman]

For those of you who have tried both, how do they compare? I have the Sigma 1200 and it's great, but would love to try a no-soak stone in that grit range. I know that Shaptons are no longer the "it" stones, but just wonder if there is a big difference between the two.

By the way, I also have the Syderco ceramic set, but use them only for carving gouges and keeping them flat enough to match the flatness of my 6000 and 13000 Sigma's is not going to happen.

Just wondering.

Steve

[David Weaver]

They are both very hard. The shapton 1000 is a fair bit more coarse, though. I've never measured flatness, but if you used something that could actually shed grit from the shapton, the 1200 might be a bit harder and stay a little flatter. They are a different feel, though. The 1200 feels like you're sharpening with a non-glazed ceramic mug, and the shapton feels like you're honing on a block of dried epoxy.

[Harold Burrell]

...sharpening with a non-glazed ceramic mug...honing on a block of dried epoxy.

hmmm...I've never tried either. Maybe they would work. They certainly would be cheaper than the stones. :p

[Steve Friedman]

They are both very hard. The shapton 1000 is a fair bit more coarse, though. I've never measured flatness, but if you used something that could actually shed grit from the shapton, the 1200 might be a bit harder and stay a little flatter. They are a different feel, though. The 1200 feels like you're sharpening with a non-glazed ceramic mug, and the shapton feels like you're honing on a block of dried epoxy.
Thanks David,

I have Atoma diamond plates in 140 and 400 grit, so I'm not concerned about keeping the Shapton flat. I do like the feel of the Sigma 1200 (actually feels like something is happening), but just wondered if I'm going to be disappointed using the Shapton instead as a spray-and-go stone. Not trying to be smarmy, but I assume you're suggesting that a non-glazed ceramic mug (the Sigma) feels coarser than a dried block of epoxy (the Shapton), right? Or do I have it backwards?

Thanks again,

Steve

[David Weaver]

It's just a different feel. The hard bester (the 1200) and the sigma 1200 both have sort of a feel that they're filing the steel when you're using them. They pro shapton and the SP both very good stones (the glasstone 1000 is too soft in my opinion, especially with as little as you get in terms of abrasive). I doubt there's anything about either of them that you'd be missing or disappointed with. I haven't used the SP 1200 too much lately after getting ezelaps, so I'm a little foggy in terms of whether or not it benefits from the surface being dressed like the shapton does, but the shapton definitely does benefit from a quick 5 or 10 second refresh lap once in a while (which will end up keeping it flat, anyway).

If you ever get your fingers on a bester 1200, it has a feel of a coarse sigma 1200, and it's not quite as hard (obviously no reason to get it if you have either of the other two, it's just another one of the good stones - those three are my favorites of the stones available). They both have that hard coral feeling to them, the shapton has more of a greasy plastic feel to it (but not cheap or offputting in anyway), maybe because there's nowhere for the water to go in it. I think they are all desirable stones to use. They tell you what they're doing by feel and they're all relatively fast and uniform.

[Tony Shea]

So I am in the market for a new 1000 grit stone. I have been using the Shapton 1000 for a long time and it is finally getting very low and has developed cracks. If you were to buy a new 1000 would you go with a Sigma 1000 instead of the Shapton Pro or something else? I have liked the Shapton Pro and really have no complaints, it has been a very good stone through out the years. But human nature (at least this human) always wants to know if something different is better or more appealing. Luckily this day in age we have the internet and can ask people with experience instead of being disapointed with something.

[David Weaver]

shapton pro 1000, SP 1200 or bester 1200

I can't see anyone having a real dislike for any of them. The bester and the shapton pro are a bit more coarse. The SP 1200 might be a bit harder, but it cuts a little finer.

Take your pick, though. If you've gone through a shapton pro 1k and really liked it, there's really nothing mounds better on the market.

[Chris Griggs]

shapton pro 1000, SP 1200 or bester 1200

I can't see anyone having a real dislike for any of them. The bester and the shapton pro are a bit more coarse. The SP 1200 might be a bit harder, but it cuts a little finer.

Take your pick, though. If you've gone through a shapton pro 1k and really liked it, there's really nothing mounds better on the market.

Yeh same. Though I haven't used the Shapton Pro 1k. The sigma 1.2 is the bees knees, the bester 1.2k is also great...I've said it before and I'll say it again I'm also a big fan of my Chosera 800 (I think its a better stone than the Cho 1k) and the only stone I've used that I like as much and perhaps more than my 800 is the sigma 1.2k. That said, there is no good reason to spend an extra $30 or whatever on a Chosera (unless you specifically want a magnesia stone) when the 3 Dave listed are so excellent.

[Steve Friedman]

Yeh same. Though I haven't used the Shapton Pro 1k. The sigma 1.2 is the bees knees, the bester 1.2k is also great...I've said it before and I'll say it again I'm also a big fan of my Chosera 800 (I think its a better stone than the Cho 1k) and the only stone I've used that I like as much and perhaps more than my 800 is the sigma 1.2k. That said, there is no good reason to spend an extra $30 or whatever on a Chosera (unless you specifically want a magnesia stone) when the 3 Dave listed are so excellent.
What's different about a magnesia stone? Can I go from the Chosera 800 to the Sigma 6000 without something in between or is the 800 too rough? I assume it's splash & go, right? Do I need a nagura stone for it?

Thanks.

[Chris Griggs]

What's different about a magnesia stone? Can I go from the Chosera 800 to the Sigma 6000 without something in between or is the 800 too rough? I assume it's splash & go, right? Do I need a nagura stone for it?

Thanks.

Lets start with the easy questions. Yes you can go from a a Chosera 800 to Sigma 6k just fine. I've never had ANY issue with this. FWIW the Chosera 800 (according to one site (http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/guide-to-using-wicked-edge-weps-chosera-and-shapton-stones/) whose information I can't verify but have no reason to believe is incorrect) has actually a slightly smaller micron grit than the Shapton 1k (14 vs 14.7 micron).

No you do not need a nagura although all the Chosera's come with a 600 grit nagura for "cleaning" I believe.

What's different about Magnesia stones (specifically the Naniwa Magnesia stones)...well at the end of the day nothing all that major but...

They tend to be very fast cutting for their grit range. They manage to be fairly hard but still have a nice feel. If you soak them for 10 or so minutes they work as nicely as any stone I've used...if you use them with just a spalsh they work anywhere from okish to quite well depending on the stone.

The downside, if you don't soak them they may or may not be not that nice to use (again depending on the specific stone). They fall into the soak but don't soak too long category and defintily don't permasoak. When they aren't working at they're best (which usually means they needed ot be soaked or soaked longer) they can misbehave...something about them (presumably their speed) tends to make them load in certain areas and they can get sticky when that happens.

They are sorta bimodal stones and there are trade off for their strengths. When they are good they are oh so VERY VERY good, but depending on the stone and how you treat it/soak it they can be finicky. The reason I like the 800 so much is for whatever reason it seems to have all the advantages but none of the disadvantages. I have no idea why, but it never clogs, where as if you work the 1k Chosera too hard and don't soak it enough it can clog (at least thats how Archies was).

Anyway I don't soak mine, but I ALWAYs let standing water sit on them for a while. The first thing I do when I get into the shop is wet them. They just work noticeably better that way.

I don't want to over emphasize their flaws. They are excellent stones, very fast, and again, dreamy to use IF you soak them and depending on the specific stone can be very nice to use even if you don't. I love mine. The thing is if you already have the sigma 1.2k it has those strengths and none of the flaws, in that it is nice and hard, still nice to use, and cuts VERY fast for its grit range. I believe (and stu correct me if I'm wrong) that the 1.2k really NEEDS to be soaked, as opposed to just working better with a soak like the Chos, but unlike the Cho's you can leave it in water permanently so I'd say its actually more convenient.

Anyway, I this is just my limited experience. Some of these stone I own or have owned, some of them I've only used in my friends shops. But based on that experience I would rank the Sig 1.2k and Cho800 as hands down my favorite "medium" grit stones and would give the edge to the Sigma 1.2k because it can be permasoaked. I'd give 3 way ties to the Bester 1.2k, Sigma 1k, and Cho1k (all of which are different with different strengths and weaknesses). Again, I can't rank the shapton 1k because the only Shapton I've ever used is the 5k. Long story short. If you own any of the stone Dave or I mentioned you pretty much have the best that's out there and there isn't any major universal gain from choosing one over the other.

I don't claim to be an expert at any of this. I just happen to have tried fair number of stones because of who I associate with. If anything I've said seems incorrect please defer to Stu, or Dave, or Joel, or whoever else has used these things more than me.

[Mike Holbrook]

Another stone you might consider is the Sigma power ceramic stone, 3F carbon #700...


"This stone .... would be difficult to describe if it weren't for the existence of the 'Select II' series stones, which it very closely simulates in both the way it behaves and the way it abrades steel.

In short, this stone positively eats steel, it's always hungry and doesn't care what you feed it. From easy to sharpen white steel/iron laminated blades to the toughest High Speed Steels, this stone cuts fast without any fuss."

I had a Shapton 2000 Pro, which is reputed to be pretty close to the 1,000. So I bought the 700 and 3,000 Sigma Select II. The 700 appears to be several times thicker than Shapton stones and at least twice that of a regular Sigma Power or Sigma Select II stone.

[Steve Friedman]

Thanks Chris.

Great explanation. My only reason to try something else in that range is to find something that doesn't need soaking. I have used my Sigma 1200 without soaking, but it is clearly happier after a short soak. Regardless of the time of soak, the fact that it needs to be soaked at all is the issue. I recall reading that the Shapton 1K is happier with a short soak as well, but know that many people really just use it with a spray bottle. Your description of the Chosera makes it sound appealing, but it doesn't sound like a true no-soak stone. Decisions!

Thanks again,

Steve

[Steve Friedman]

Mike,

I have thought of the Sigma 700 several times, but if there is significant work to do, I start with a Cerax 320, then Sigma 400. By the time I'm done with those two, I'm just removing scratches or creating a microbevel and the 1200 is aggressive enough for that. Since I sharpened every blade I own after getting my Sigma stones, most of the work is on the 6000 and 13000. I only drop down if there's a chip to be repaired.

Thanks,

Steve

[Archie England]

Mike,

I have thought of the Sigma 700 several times, but if there is significant work to do, I start with a Cerax 320, then Sigma 400. By the time I'm done with those two, I'm just removing scratches or creating a microbevel and the 1200 is aggressive enough for that. Since I sharpened every blade I own after getting my Sigma stones, most of the work is on the 6000 and 13000. I only drop down if there's a chip to be repaired.

Thanks,

Steve


Chris G's Chosera 800 is genuinely superior to the Cho 1000. It's an amazing stone, and it's not nearly as messy (but neither are the 400, 600, or 3000). But, my Cho 1000 can produce more easily a sharper edge faster than every other 1k or 1.2k that I tried. At this, it beats the 800; but that's it. After using the Cho 800 & 1000 as well as the Sigma 1000 & 1200 and the Bester 1200, the Sigma 1200 and the Cho 800 stand out as the best. The Sigma 1200 has tons more feel and personality (IMO) than the Bester, both which cut faster than the Sigma 1000. Again, I get sharper here with the Cho 1000, but for prepping and handing off to the next stone, the Cho 800 (Chris') is decidedly faster and leaves a fairly sharp edge. The Sigma 1200 nearly matches the 800 in prep speed and excels it in edge quality. I'm still a fan of the Sigma 1000 because you cannot keep it from working--and it gives excellent feedback. The Bester 1200, though a lesser quality stone in terms of feedback, speed, edge refinement, still produces a heck of a good edge.

These are all great stones!!!!! It's been fun learning how to coax the best from them. The Sigma 1200 and the Chosera 800 are the easiest with which to do so.

[Derek Cohen]

Sigma 1200 vs Shapton 1000?

As David notes, the Sigma feels slightly coarser - very slightly in my estimate. Just a little more feedback. Nevertheless, the Shapton performs identically, or nearly identically. I doubt that you would notice the difference. I have the Sigma 1200/6000/13000 and, taken together when used on tough steel, they are prefered to the Shaptons. Nevertheless, the Shaptons are excellent stones and have certain advantages, namely that they work better with less water. The 1000 is the star of their show as far as I am concerned. For the current project I switched to the Shapton 1000/5000/12000 combination, and am not feeling a drop in performance.

EDIT: I have just returned from 4 hours in the shop dovetailing sides for a chest, which involved preparing the chisels to do so. I put the Shapton 1000 and Sigma 1200 alongside one another. There was a difference in feel, but it was the other way around - the Shapton has a coarser, more direct feel. The Sigma feels smoother and glassy by comparison. Both were flattened on a Shapton diamond flattening stone. Both work comparably, with an edge to the Sigma on the harder PM-V11 steel, but the same on O1.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Friedman]

Thanks everyone,

The Chosera 800 sounds like an awesome stone, but my reason for wanting to add a stone was to find a splash-and-go 1K stone. Even if the Chosera 800 is a better stone than the Shapton Pro 1K, it doesn't sound like it's necessarily better if I'm going to use it without soaking.

Besides Derek, I know that Wilbur is also happy with his Shaptons. For $37 (Japanese version) I'm not sure how I can go wrong.

Steve

[Tony Shea]

So if there are so many great reviews of the SP 1200 I wonder why Stu doesn't set up a kit that includes this stone instead of the 1000-6000-13000?

[Steve Friedman]

So if there are so many great reviews of the SP 1200 I wonder why Stu doesn't set up a kit that includes this stone instead of the 1000-6000-13000?
He does - sort of. When you buy either of the Sigma sets, you can get the 1200 instead of the 1000 and just pay the price difference of that stone (around $15). Actually when you order the set, there are 3 different 1K-ish options, two 6000 stone options, four diamond stone options, and four tray/base options.

Steve

[Tony Shea]

Oh I see. I never actually made it that far so missed that. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Steve Friedman]

Tony,

Just make sure to convert the currency to dollars. The price of the 1000 - 6000 - 13000 is almost 25% less than it was when I bought it less than a year ago!

Steve

[Wilbur Pan]

Besides Derek, I know that Wilbur is also happy with his Shaptons.


Yup. That doesn't mean that other brands of 1000 grit waterstones are bad.

[Stuart Tierney]

Yup. That doesn't mean that other brands of 1000 grit waterstones are bad.

Doesn't mean that the Shapton Pro #1000 is good either...

(Did that leave a mark?)

Actually, the Shapton Pro #1000 is good. Properly good. You throw some water on it, and it works and that's how it's supposed to be.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have some 'issues' of it's own, but these problems are not often encountered and can in most cases be overlooked and/or ignored without ever having them come back to haunt you.

Most stones have 'issues' of some kind, and it's a case of either dealing with them, or finding another equivalent stone that has a different set of problems that are more palatable to you. There is no 'perfect' stone out there, although some do get quite close.

What I find confusing is when stones get universally glowing reports when I know they're utter garbage. The only thing I can nail this down to is that the folks saying "this is great!" don't have a very large frame of reference by which to compare what they're using, and that reference is littered with stuff that's even worse than their new favourite.

Folks who I know have actually tried a few stones, and make the effort to tell folks about it, usually have an opinion which I generally agree with. Not always, since it's a personal thing, but never anything outlandish or difficult to comprehend.

And quite a few of them have posted in this thread... ;)

Stu.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Stu,

Just to clarify: which issues are you referring to? I just went back to reread your posts (start here (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=672)) on your testing of a wide variety of 1000 grit waterstones, and the Shapton Pros seemed to do pretty well across the board, with the exception of testing with a CPM-3V steel chisel. Which is fine by me, since I don't use CPM steel chisels, or plane blades, for that matter. ;)

Besides that, am I missing something?

[Stuart Tierney]

Like I wrote, the 'issues' are rarely encountered so it's no surprise you've never met them.

When putting a lot of moderately hard steel (Marples Blue Chip, etc.)on the stone, say 2+ postage stamps worth, it can suffer from chronic clogging/clotting. Not your garden variety spots, you end up with a massive black smear that will NOT clear without completely removing it mechanically. Any trace left behind seems to allow a new clot to grow very quickly. Using excessive water reduces but doesn't eliminate the chance of the clot occurring. Ironically, one of these with a lot of water on it is one of the messiest stones I know of, as the crud gets flung in all directions. Harder steel doesn't tend to have the same effect.

Very hard AND abrasion steels, like the CPM there, Japanese origin HSS (because they like this stuff hard!), PM-HSS, etc. tend to skate across the stone, unless you raise a little slurry first. Hard isn't such a problem, abrasion resistant alone isn't a problem, its a combination of the two. Pretty much every stone out there will work faster with a little loose stuff rolling around. This wouldn't be noticed, except there are more than a few stones that don't need that 'help'. Interestingly, the Suehiro Gokumyo 1K stones which are infinitely harder and almost dish proof but a lot slower than the Shapton manage to actually work with these hard steels reasonably well, as do the Glass Stones.

The Shapton is 15mm thick. Nice size, light, compact. However, like the Glass Stones, the thought that these thinner stones last as long as a full 25mm stone doesn't pan out. The Shapton Pro comes out ok, and manages it against most of the 'others' in that test setup I did, but not all and not against some stones not in that test. This is not something that affects most users, but the guys sharpening a lot usually wise up after 1-2 of these things and switch to something that'll last a bit longer.

So there you go. Small, not always encountered problems, but I've run into them, and they're notable because these are things that don't affect 'other' stones. And if I have struck them, then I'm not the only one.

But really, I don't think these 'problems' are deal killers at all. For most folks reading this, the Shapton Pro 1K is a great stone, highly regarded and with good reason.

Also, these 'problems' are not the only reasons why I'm not enamoured by the Shapton Pro 1K. But the above are the ones that can't be put down to personal preferences.

So there you go.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

The loading issue is alleviated by working the water up the stone with moderately short strokes, the same type you'd use if you were attempting to use the stone surface as evenly as you possibly could. I did have the problem you describe initially, but I haven't had the same problem when flattening for several years. It's just a matter of using the stone, and it becomes pretty easy to avoid it.

I can think of only one moderately priced stone that would last as long and one that might last longer. The key to getting the maximum out of the pro, though (which is much longer than any king, bester 1000, etc would ever provide) is what substrate you affix the stone to and how you affix it.

I definitely either slurry or immediately refreshen the 1k if it's going to see muji irons. I prefer slurry, which keeps hard stones from loading. In that way, it's the identical thing you'd do with a natural stone.

Except I'd never contemplate a natural stone with the muji irons, and the $35 ezelap stones over here shred them.

Folks who use a lot of hard natural stones might prefer the shapton, just because the use schedule is a lot like natural stones, and encouraging performance from the 1k pro is a lot the same as what would be done with a natural stone that was being pushed.

In terms of overall use, I have taken off a little less than 2mm from my pro 1k in the last five years or so. 2/3rds of the things I've sharpened have probably been rubbed on it. For an average hobbyist, it's probably a two-decade stone with educated use, and maybe 5 years with overzealous lapping and disregard for using the whole surface.

[Hilton Ralphs]

What I find confusing is when stones get universally glowing reports when I know they're utter garbage.

So which are these Stu? It probably would be useful for a beginner to know what stones to avoid.

Thanks.

[Stuart Tierney]

So which are these Stu? It probably would be useful for a beginner to know what stones to avoid.

Thanks.

I'd love to write it down here, but it'd smack of favouritism and to be honest, there are very few 'bad' recommendations around here anyway. Few enough that most of them get lost and forgotten.

I'd suggest that before taking the plunge, read what's already been written here and perhaps ask about it. I probably won't say anything, but there are a lot of folks here who will and 9 times out of 10, their advice is worth following.

It's difficult for me to do much more than that. I sell stones, lots and lots of stones, and if I make a specific recommendation, there's always a risk that it'll be taken as being biased toward something I make money on. I must admit that the folks running this forum tend to 'leave things be' more often than not, and I've never been chastised for making a suggestion, which is nice. I always tend to leave specific recommendations out of anything I write, unless it's been bought up previously and all I might do is add my thoughts to an already suggested 'thing'.

Other forums, make any suggestion, and you'll get shot down very quickly. I've never been banned anywhere, but I have refused to participate at quite a few places because of the excessively heavy handed moderation.

Sorry, that's how it is. I'd like to do more, and if I had more time I would, but at the moment, all I can do is write sweet nothings around here.

Stu.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Stu, I understand your position.

I was thinking more along the lines of the obvious 'avoid at all costs' items.

Bit like wearing white shoes, admitting you watch Glee or eating Salad.

[David Weaver]

Bit like wearing white shoes, admitting you watch Glee or eating Salad.

Oh no...they didn't export glee from here to SA, did they?

If you go with any of the stones mentioned in this thread, you're fine. If you have something local that costs a whole lot less to get, then you'll likely be fine, too.

Most of the really goofy recommendations that I've seen seem to wade around in the razor and knife forums, where there are self-appointed gurus who moderate with a heavy hand. A large percentage of the members in those forums don't sharpen anything else, and they don't do anything else mechanically with their minds and hands. Some of the stone shops who cater to those folks have run-of-the-mill stuff at very marked-up prices and they will tell you stuff like "it's proprietary" when you ask them what the abrasive or binder is in their stones. If you get to the point where you know the difference or want to know just for reasonable use (i.e., you want to know ahead of time if a stone has a magnesia binder, because it will not tolerate extended soaking), then avoid.

If you see a seller who claims their stone has no compromises, and who says conflicting things, like their stones being much harder than anything else but cutting much faster than a well known softer stone, etc. The seller is banking on you not ever having the other stones to compare. Avoid that kind of stuff.

If you see medium grit sloppy stones for $100-$150. Avoid, etc, unless something very specific is said about them. Especially if they come from a cutlery store or something selling high end knives.

Stu's joint is safe from unsupported BS. The known stuff from chef knives to go is safe, and most of the WWing retailers are safe (though they are often more expensive).

[Stuart Tierney]

Thanks Stu, I understand your position.

I was thinking more along the lines of the obvious 'avoid at all costs' items.

Bit like wearing white shoes, admitting you watch Glee or eating Salad.

Eating salad?

We chew through heaps of salad around here...

Then again, we also get some rather 'nice' dressing by the case to go with it. Dunno what's in it, but danged if it isn't just made entirely of awesome. :)

But we also eat all manner of much stranger stuff than mere salad around these parts. Salad is tame. Salad is safe. Salad won't kill you.

Stu.

[Harold Burrell]

Then again, we also get some rather 'nice' dressing by the case to go with it. Dunno what's in it, but danged if it isn't just made entirely of awesome. :)



How about including some of that with my next stone order, huh? ;)

I won't tell anybody...

[Wilbur Pan]

When putting a lot of moderately hard steel (Marples Blue Chip, etc.)on the stone, say 2+ postage stamps worth, it can suffer from chronic clogging/clotting. Not your garden variety spots, you end up with a massive black smear that will NOT clear without completely removing it mechanically. Any trace left behind seems to allow a new clot to grow very quickly. Using excessive water reduces but doesn't eliminate the chance of the clot occurring. Ironically, one of these with a lot of water on it is one of the messiest stones I know of, as the crud gets flung in all directions. Harder steel doesn't tend to have the same effect.


FWIW, I do have a set of pre-Irwin Marples Blue Chip chisels that say they were made in Sheffield. I haven't noticed the issue that you're describing when sharpening them using my Shapton Pro 1000. Not that I doubt what you're saying, but I really haven't had an issue with this at all.