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Lee Schierer
05-30-2013, 6:54 PM
I've filled out many fill in the blank automated forms for ordering material, asking questions etc on the internet. They want you name address, phone numbers email etc. Most have pull down lists for the state entry. My question is why can't you just enter your zip code and the computer fills in the city and state? If they can make a pull down list of states why can't the form be smart enough to pull up the city and state if you fill in the zip code? Is the listing of zip codes so large that it can't easily be incorporated into these forms?

Grant Wilkinson
05-30-2013, 7:10 PM
It could easily be incorporated. It's simply that the guy designing the forum could not be bothered building the tables.

John Sanford
05-30-2013, 7:55 PM
It's not as simple as Grant makes it out to be. There are two problems. First, building the tables, which, with the joys of the 'net isn't actually too bad. The second problem is keeping the tables up to date. New ZIP Codes (and Postal Codes for the Canucks) are always being added. Also, they've been known to jigger with the ZIP boundaries, resulting in the number of ZIP codes fluctuating annually by a few THOUSAND. So, in order to be useful, some mechanism for keeping the tables up to date must be in place. The State/ZIP relationship very rarely changes, but the City/ZIP frequently does, especially given how many "cities" from the addressing perspective aren't cities at all.

Steve Wurster
05-30-2013, 8:36 PM
It gets worse on the sites that do determine your city from your zip. Think of when your zip changes, as happened to us at our previous house. The zip was getting too big so they split it in two; it took a while before web sites that attempted to validate the zip caught up with the change.

ray hampton
05-30-2013, 8:36 PM
thanks for this post since I had the same idea

Paul Saffold
05-30-2013, 9:44 PM
Why do they have pull down list for the states? Why not allow just typing in the 2 letter abbreviation? I guess if I didn't have to scroll to the bottom of the list I wouldn't mind so much.

AND. What's with requiring entering your email address, then confirming it by entering it again? Most people know their email addresses at least as well as their phone number. Once is enough.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Lee. Rant over.
Paul

Chris Padilla
05-30-2013, 10:13 PM
You can type the first letter of your state's two-letter abbreviation and pull-down lists will scroll to it fast. Then you can scroll less. For me here in California, CA is the first C so I simply type C and enter and CA gets entered.

Learn to use the tab and typing and you'll find filling in most forms to go faster than point, click, scroll, click.

Greg Peterson
05-30-2013, 11:22 PM
I just type O and keep hitting O until Oregon pops up.

Jason Beam
05-30-2013, 11:53 PM
Why do they have pull down list for the states? Why not allow just typing in the 2 letter abbreviation? I guess if I didn't have to scroll to the bottom of the list I wouldn't mind so much.

AND. What's with requiring entering your email address, then confirming it by entering it again? Most people know their email addresses at least as well as their phone number. Once is enough.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Lee. Rant over.
Paul

These are both the result of experience. You would think entering the 2-letter abbreviation would be simple. But experience shows that FAR too many people either can't manage to type two characters without screwing it up - or - and this is worse - they don't actually know their state's 2-letter abbreviation. It's that sad.

Entering your email twice is a speed bump forcing people to double check that they got it right. Adding the 2nd entry improved the successful capture of valid email addresses by a significant amount and that's why it's there.

The biggest rule when writing web apps: People don't read - people can't type - people need to be guided.

Brian Kerley
05-31-2013, 12:29 AM
First problem.....there are zip codes that span multiple states.....

My issue is having to select "Visa" or "Mastercard" instead of just typing in the number. It's rather trivial to determine who the card holder is based on the number. Google does it. Amazon does it. Paypal does it.

Brian Kerley
05-31-2013, 12:31 AM
It gets worse on the sites that do determine your city from your zip. Think of when your zip changes, as happened to us at our previous house. The zip was getting too big so they split it in two; it took a while before web sites that attempted to validate the zip caught up with the change.

I remember when our zip code changed when the town was annexed five years ago. The post office's own web site couldn't validate properly, even though they are the ones that dish out zip codes. It took about six months. for the various databases of the USPS to finally agree.

ray hampton
05-31-2013, 1:23 AM
Why do they have pull down list for the states? Why not allow just typing in the 2 letter abbreviation? I guess if I didn't have to scroll to the bottom of the list I wouldn't mind so much.

AND. What's with requiring entering your email address, then confirming it by entering it again? Most people know their email addresses at least as well as their phone number. Once is enough.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Lee. Rant over.
Paul

my E-MAIL address is not a problem because I use it almost every day but I can not figure out how to call myself on the phone so I will take time to find the phone numbers, that is not correct, you can dial your cell number with your cell phone

Tom Fischer
05-31-2013, 3:43 AM
If they can make a pull down list of states why can't the form be smart enough to pull up the city and state if you fill in the zip code? Is the listing of zip codes so large that it can't easily be incorporated into these forms?

The problem is the basic design of the form. When you select from those drop down menus, all those selection options are already loaded on the page when you open it - it's on the "Client side"
If you go to view "Page Source" it may be there. Otherwise it is called as a "dependency" JavaScript, which you can also find in the page HTML.
This does not need a further internet connection to make selections.

But a zip code look up application, which calls a stored procedure on an Oracle database, can only be contained on the "Server side"
This needs an internet connection to locate the zip code.

So a zip code lookup is an entirely different page "fragment" from state selection and brings that web page form to an entirely new level of complexity.
And that is why you only see it on the very large internet retailers - Amazon, Paypal, etc.
They have hundreds of software developers of various disciplines on the payroll, complete with project managers who understand the complexity and interfaces.

Tom Fischer
05-31-2013, 3:57 AM
Adding the 2nd entry improved the successful capture of valid email addresses by a significant amount and that's why it's there.

Actually, most web pages will include a short javascript which will check your two password entries looking for an identical match, case sensitive as well, also checking the number of characters, which fall within the allowed limits.
On current computers, the check takes a fraction of a second.

Ever notice that when entering e-mail, if you don't provide some instance of the character "@" the page will refuse your e-Mail?
That is also a javascript check, looking for one instance of "@" to make it a valid e-mail.

Also same with foul language blocking code.
A list of banned words is included on the page. A javascript "loops" though the words you type, looking for a match to the banned list.
Wise guys love getting around the banned list by typing @ or * instead of the vowels in the four letter words.

I know only a smattering of coding, javascript and HTML. The elegance of most computer languages is breath taking.

John Coloccia
05-31-2013, 7:46 AM
First problem.....there are zip codes that span multiple states.....


Exactly. The ZIP code has to do with sending your mail to the proper facilities for eventual delivery. The only real link to your state is that it's usually most convenient for a facility in your state to process the mail. Incidentally, living in New England most of my adult life, I've had no end of trouble with smarty-pants automated zipcode decoder nonsense. They refuse me half the time because my ZIP code starts with a 0 (really???? How can you not get this right?!?). Then they screw up my town and won't let me enter the correct one, but the stupid idiots either don't realize or don't care that some towns share ZIP codes.

Jason Beam
05-31-2013, 11:08 AM
Incidentally, living in New England most of my adult life, I've had no end of trouble with smarty-pants automated zipcode decoder nonsense. They refuse me half the time because my ZIP code starts with a 0 (really???? How can you not get this right?!?). Then they screw up my town and won't let me enter the correct one, but the stupid idiots either don't realize or don't care that some towns share ZIP codes.

That one's bit me once before in other areas besides zip codes - people using loosely typed languages forget that a zip code (without the +4) will often be converted to an integer. 01021 will get "converted" to a number - it's lame and shows a coder who didn't think it all the way through (that's as polite as i can put it). Loose typing makes it too easy to forget that sometimes numbers are strings too.

Tom touched a bit on why different forms do different things - the main concept is this: Browsers don't do ANY of this for the coders. It takes a coder who knows how, has the time allotment to do it and the budget to get paid for doing it. Most of the time, you'll find that the last factor is the loudest one -- clients can't justify the costs of paying for a zip code database service or an address validator service or even to spend the time to make the forms smarter.

Usually, we're lucky they even think beyond "we want this form, make it work.." because they don't understand the complexities of user interaction well enough to appreciate the costs that go into making things super easy to use.

There was an old adage i picked up some years ago before i started programming professionally - it goes something like "The more you try to make an application simple to use, the more complex the code is to drive it." -- you basically have to think for them and account for every contingency. Computers haven't really changed in 60 years; they're still pretty dumb. It takes software to make 'em seem smart and it takes quality programmers with adequate budgets and timelines to put together awesome software. The companies that get this right understand this fact. Sadly, the companies that don't far outnumber the ones that do so you see a lot of these kinds of user experience flubs all over the place. :)

Tom Fischer
05-31-2013, 11:49 AM
... It takes software to make 'em seem smart and it takes quality programmers with adequate budgets and timelines to put together awesome software. The companies that get this right understand this fact. Sadly, the companies that don't far outnumber the ones that do so you see a lot of these kinds of user experience flubs all over the place. :)

Well yes, that is right Jason. But I do think folks are too hard on the IT business, IMO
There was a post nearby recently with some pretty good humor, about what it would look like if an IT company hired carpenters.
Good laughs. Seen it myself.
But seriously, IT people are really looking into a dark cave.
Beyond the departed Steve Jobs, who actually made the future happen, most are guessing what the future holds.
Remember Oracle founder Larry Ellison predicted that Microsoft was wasting its time, no way could they sell 100Million copies of anything.
Ellison believe that everything would be invoked from a server.
He was somewhat correct, we do have a massive internet, and now cloud computing, which is what he was probably talking about.
But in the meantime, Bill Gates is like the second richest man in world.
It's good Larry kept his day job.

So IT architecture is cousin to the Fog of War. Nobody really knows.
That's probably why it looks so confused.

Actually, I would compare it to Automobile industry of 100 years ago.
Back then, nobody knew if the future was gas powered, steam powered or battery powered.
Over 100 auto manufacturers in the U.S. back then.
The rules of Capitalism claimed, what, 97 victims.

No doubt will be similar with IT in the long run.

John Coloccia
05-31-2013, 12:30 PM
I was an engineer for nearly 20 years. My best and most successful projects were the ones where I completely ignored management and practically dared them to fire me. When I moved up to management, nothing changed. Instead of fighting with the "Director of This", I got to fight with "the VP of that". LOL. No one ever gives any thought to user interface and interaction. I suspect that's because it never makes onto the Gantt chart in any meaningful way. Every thing else is broken out in excruciating detail, with milestones, incentives, penalties, etc. Invariably, there's one long bar that goes from beginning to end that simply says "GUI", and some fake engineer is assigned to it, loaded at 20%, throughout the life of the project. I used to use "Engineer 1"..."Engineer 2"...to get by the bean counters. It seemed more official than "TBD", and certainly got me further than labeling it "BS".

them: Who's this B. S. guy? Is he a new hire?
me: Uhm...er.....never mind. We haven't identified him yet....he's TBD.
them: Oh, that will never work. Let's call him "Engineer 1".
me: OK! *****grrrrrrrr*********


Sometimes, you just have to lie, ignore and then infuriate to make any sort of real progress.

Pat Barry
05-31-2013, 12:33 PM
my E-MAIL address is not a problem because I use it almost every day but I can not figure out how to call myself on the phone so I will take time to find the phone numbers, that is not correct, you can dial your cell number with your cell phone
Hey Ray, who answers the phone when you call your own number?

Matt Meiser
05-31-2013, 1:05 PM
Hey Ray, who answers the phone when you call your own number?

If its a cell phone, probably the voicemail lady asking for your VM password.

ray hampton
05-31-2013, 2:20 PM
Hey Ray, who answers the phone when you call your own number?

I got no idea who answer the phone but I got a very quick message which told me that other people must dial their own cell phone numbers at one time or other

ray hampton
05-31-2013, 2:22 PM
If its a cell phone, probably the voicemail lady asking for your VM password.

explain VM password

John C Lawson
06-01-2013, 12:33 AM
Exactly. The ZIP code has to do with sending your mail to the proper facilities for eventual delivery. The only real link to your state is that it's usually most convenient for a facility in your state to process the mail. Incidentally, living in New England most of my adult life, I've had no end of trouble with smarty-pants automated zipcode decoder nonsense. They refuse me half the time because my ZIP code starts with a 0 (really???? How can you not get this right?!?). Then they screw up my town and won't let me enter the correct one, but the stupid idiots either don't realize or don't care that some towns share ZIP codes.

I lived in town in NJ that had no post office. Depending on where you lived, your mailing address was one of three (3!) neighboring towns, and no one further than 10 miles away was likely to have heard of the town. The major tourist attraction has a mailing address in a fourth town. As an interesting aside, in this town is the publishing offices of Woodturning Design.

Ken Fitzgerald
06-01-2013, 1:18 AM
explain VM password

Voice Mail password.....

glenn bradley
06-01-2013, 9:34 AM
It could easily be incorporated. It's simply that the guy designing the forum could not be bothered building the tables.

More likely it is error prevention. Similar to making you enter your email twice. If I type 90210 I'm in Beverly Hills. If I fat-finger 92010, I'm in Carlsbad. If I put 90210 and Carlsbad, the system let's you know you made a boo-boo. At least that's how we use it.

John Sanford
06-02-2013, 1:14 PM
Why do they have pull down list for the states? Why not allow just typing in the 2 letter abbreviation? I guess if I didn't have to scroll to the bottom of the list I wouldn't mind so much. Typos. As a database professional for a long time, I can't begin to describe the myriad of ways folks can screw up a state abbreviation.


AND. What's with requiring entering your email address, then confirming it by entering it again? Most people know their email addresses at least as well as their phone number. Once is enough. see above, only more so. Don't forget that the keyboard layout we use is deliberately "clunky", which increases the # of typos.

John Sanford
06-02-2013, 1:23 PM
explain VM password Or, if things are really screwed up (somebody's network guys are fighting with their telephony guys) it could be a password to a Virtual Machine.

Greg Peterson
06-02-2013, 2:22 PM
Remember Oracle founder Larry Ellison predicted that Microsoft was wasting its time, no way could they sell 100Million copies of anything.
Ellison believe that everything would be invoked from a server.
He was somewhat correct, we do have a massive internet, and now cloud computing, which is what he was probably talking about.
But in the meantime, Bill Gates is like the second richest man in world.

MS has had their share of missteps along the way. Windows 8, Vista, Window ME...

Apple, as you stated, innovated. Jobs was a visionary and was a force of nature. MS, on the other hand, doesn't really innovate. Mostly copy or buy up emerging tech. MS whiffed big time on the Internet and has been playing catchup for nearly twenty years now.

MS is a 500 pound gorilla because Gates/Balmer were able to get the market cornered for the desktop early in the game. After that, getting people to upgrade to the next version was easy. Windows 8 may have broken the cycle though. Time will tell.

But I agree, it is a bit like staring into a dark cave when it comes to engineering software to the lowest common denominator.