Why didn't anyone tell me that Japanese chisels...

[Chuck Darney]

...could be so time consuming and expensive?!?


Recently I purchased a 15mm Ouchi chisel from Stuart Tierney (toolsfromjapan). I wanted to try a Japanese chisel to see wether I would like them. While I was waiting for it to be delivered, Chris Vandiver put some additional Ouchi chisels up for sale. The deal was too good to pass up so I bought his 3, 9 and 12mm. So far, so good.


When the chisels came I wanted to make sure they were properly sharpened and honed. I has a WS3000 but I really don't like the job it does so I bought a DMT DuoSharp Fine/Extra Fine diamond stone to use with my Veritas MKII. Wanting an even better edge I ended up buying a Spyderco Ultra Fine stone but the jump from the Extra Fine to that was a little more than I wanted to deal with so I bought a Spyderco Fine stone as well. With these stones and a little honing paste the backs get nice and flat and they get REALLY sharp.


Well...I couldn't see just having those sharp so I decided to sharpen my other chisels as well...and the plane blades too. They took a while because it seems that a 25* bevel on the WorkSharp is not quite the same as 25* on the MKII and all of the primary bevels needed to be re-done. I also touched up the backs as well since I don't think I did them right several years ago. To speed the process up a little I bought a DMT Extra Course/Course diamond stone as well. It's a cheap set of Woodriver chisels but they get REALLY sharp too. So did the plane blades.


I figured since I had the stones and was already sharpening I may as well clean up the chisels that my daughter bought for me at a thrift shop for $1 each. They were in BAD shape! It took quite a bit to flatten the backs and get a proper bevel on them but they got REALLY sharp too!


The process of flattening, shapening and honing the chisels and plane blades has taken several days...and I haven't even gotten to use one of the Japanese chisels yet. Except, of course to test the edges...and the cuts on my arm proved they were sharp.


My wife sees me working on all of the blades and deecides it might be a good time to properly sharpen all of the kitchen knives as well. This was another afternoon.


Buying four new stones to redo and sharpen 19 chisels, 5 plane blades and a dozen kitchen knives, I decided I had to call it quits and use some of them. Fortunately, keeping the blades up should be MUCH easier.


So, with the numerous posts and proponents of the Japanese style chisels found in this forum, why didn't anyone tell me that they would be so expensive and time consuming?!?

...Chuck "tired hands" Darney

[David Weaver]

I suppose they are expensive, but once you get them dialed in, keeping them in shape is like a near nothing activity, you'll enjoy them more and more as you use them.

As for the knives, at least you're allowed to sharpen them. My wife thinks that sharp knives are dangerous knives. Her friends are all used to dull ones, too, so when they're over, the knives have to be dull or they cut themselves.

[Tom Vanzant]

David, I take my knives when we visit the in-laws. They're both on blood-thinners and I'm not allowed to sharpen their knives.

[Chuck Darney]

Actually, I didn't find the chisels themselves out of line with other "good" chisels. I thought they would cost considerably more.

I did finally get to use them on a small project . I like the feel. If they hold the edge as I expect I think they'll be great.

My wife likes sharp knives but does nothing to keep them that way. I watch her cutting things on the Corelle plates and doing anything to make them dull. I've tried to show her how to use the steel but she'll have no part of that! It's easier to have me sharpen them all.


I suppose they are expensive, but once you get them dialed in, keeping them in shape is like a near nothing activity, you'll enjoy them more and more as you use them.

As for the knives, at least you're allowed to sharpen them. My wife thinks that sharp knives are dangerous knives. Her friends are all used to dull ones, too, so when they're over, the knives have to be dull or they cut themselves.

[Mel Fulks]

I posted a while back about a couple that bought wood counter tops that subsequently had picked up burns by friends helping with the cooking. Seen it happen with corion ,too. Soon we will be paying higher insurance premiums unless you cut up your guests steak for them and keep them away from the stove.

[Jim Koepke]

Her friends are all used to dull ones, too, so when they're over, the knives have to be dull or they cut themselves.

Dull knives are more likely to slip off of what they are cutting. Maybe proper use of a sharp knife is a skill set not all people posses.

My wife was shocked one time after our knives were taken out to the shop to be sharpened. She has since made it clear she likes the knives sharp, but to give her some warning before she uses them.

Most of the time our knives are touched up with a Dia Sharp (DMT?) extra fine that has been epoxied to a piece of hardwood and kept in the kitchen. About once every year are so they are taken to the stones to be super sharpened.

jtk

[David Weaver]

That sounds like a good reason to not sharpen their knives. We have three sharp knives. I use them, and one of my wife's friends loves sharp knives, so she uses those. They all know what to be afraid of when they look at the knife block now. I have two personal japanese knives, but nobody else uses them. They are such a joy to use when they're taken care of properly that I don't let my wife's counter or dish scraping friends use them.

Oh...Chuck, just as a side reference. The chisels you've gotten are probably white II, and it's a possibility a couple might be white #1. You'll probably find that their magic point is somewhere around 28 degrees of bevel angle. If they are at all chippy, don't be afraid to work them back toward that. The joy in using japanese chisels is at the lowest angle where they will not chip at all, because they essentially become maintainable almost entirely with a single finish stone if you keep after them. If I have a long bunch of dovetails or HB to cut, then I will usually sit down at my bench to ease my back and put a finish stone behind me. No matter how long I've gone, I've never had to go back to a level coarser than the finish stone. That means that the chisel stays blindingly sharp and consistent the entire time. No "i think it might be getting dull, but I'm not sure".

Of course, you can do whatever you'd like, and if they hold up well at 25, that's pretty much the story. But if they chip a little there's good cause to find their point of perfection. You'll find that even at 28 degrees, you'll not find a western chisel at 25 degrees that eases through the cut as well, which may be due to the ura.

[David Weaver]

Dull knives are more likely to slip off of what they are cutting. Maybe proper use of a sharp knife is a skill set not all people posses.

My wife was shocked one time after our knives were taken out to the shop to be sharpened. She has since made it clear she likes the knives sharp, but to give her some warning before she uses them.

Most of the time our knives are touched up with a Dia Sharp (DMT?) extra fine that has been epoxied to a piece of hardwood and kept in the kitchen. About once every year are so they are taken to the stones to be super sharpened.

jtk

I just touch mine up (not the japanese knives, though) on a cheap two sided chinese made chinese 1000 grit diamond stone, and then maintain them with steeling. But that is apparently even too much, and I have to do it when nobody is around to see it.

You know and I know a sharp knife is much more predictable. She and her friends have some very bad habits, though, like pinching vegetables against their thumbs into the knife blades. I've tried reasoning, but it doesn't work. Unfortunately we got to this point even with a knife that I put tape on to let them know which one was sharpened. My wife cut herself with one, and literally two days later one of her friends did. That makes the sharpener an evil person, apparently.

[David Weaver]

I watch her cutting things on the Corelle plates and doing anything to make them dull.

Man, I hear you there. Anything from clanking edges onto the bottom of a plate repeatedly to scraping off a wooden cutting boards or metal pan with the sharp side.

[David Weaver]

I posted a while back about a couple that bought wood counter tops that subsequently had picked up burns by friends helping with the cooking. Seen it happen with corion ,too. Soon we will be paying higher insurance premiums unless you cut up your guests steak for them and keep them away from the stove.

How did they burn themselves?

[Chuck Darney]

The chisels are WS #2. I set the bevel at 30* for the Japanese chisels. All of the others I set at 25*. I took off the secondary bevels on all of my chisels and blades. As I use them more I may take them to 28* or so to see how that does.

I like having all of my knives sharp but it's hard to keep up with. They're decent knives so I don't mind spending the time. Then my daughter brings hers over to be done too. Her are too cheap to hold an edge for long so I just give them a "lick and a promise" and give them back.


That sounds like a good reason to not sharpen their knives. We have three sharp knives. I use them, and one of my wife's friends loves sharp knives, so she uses those. They all know what to be afraid of when they look at the knife block now. I have two personal japanese knives, but nobody else uses them. They are such a joy to use when they're taken care of properly that I don't let my wife's counter or dish scraping friends use them.

Oh...Chuck, just as a side reference. The chisels you've gotten are probably white II, and it's a possibility a couple might be white #1. You'll probably find that their magic point is somewhere around 28 degrees of bevel angle. If they are at all chippy, don't be afraid to work them back toward that. The joy in using japanese chisels is at the lowest angle where they will not chip at all, because they essentially become maintainable almost entirely with a single finish stone if you keep after them.

[David Weaver]

oops...i misread that thinking that they were 30 instead of 25. You'll like them around there. (To me) they seem incredibly sharp and easy through the wood compared to a western chisel at 30.

[Jim Koepke]

You know and I know a sharp knife is much more predictable. She and her friends have some very bad habits, though, like pinching vegetables against their thumbs into the knife blades. I've tried reasoning, but it doesn't work. Unfortunately we got to this point even with a knife that I put tape on to let them know which one was sharpened. My wife cut herself with one, and literally two days later one of her friends did. That makes the sharpener an evil person, apparently.

Same with my wife. She thinks a knife needs to be serrated to cut tomatoes.

So there is mostly only one of the large knives and the two paring knives she doesn't use that I will get fully sharp.

She doesn't sharpen her knives, but then complains when they won't cut or mostly reaches for one of the cheap serrated knifes to butcher a tomato.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

How did they burn themselves?

My thought was the countertops got burn marks from people setting down hot pots and pans.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I think you're right. Monday is not a good reading comprehension day!!

[Tony Shea]

Women and sharp knives are a tough mix. I started out pleading with my mother about a couple knives I bought for her for Xmas. Out of the box they were pretty sharp yet I still had to touch them up as they weren't sharp enough for my taste. Her first go around with them she almost instantly cut herself. She has been cooking incredible meals since I've been alive and taught me everything I know about chefing. But she is just more comfortable with a dull knife and reaches for her $50 set of knives before she grabs the $200 razor sharp knife. She has terrible form when chopping to say the least.

My girlfriend on the other hand I have gotten to like real sharp knives. But keeping our knives sharp is a full time job with her around. I personally have a bit of a knife addiction and have accumulated some decent knives. But I am always sharpening them as she is also slicing on a plate, corian counter, or anything she can find that will dull the blade instantly. I just can't get it through her that she can't do it so I've given up. But that means I keep my Itto-Ryu knife far away from her. I love this knife, is white steel #1 and just gets the best edge I've ever had on anything.

[John Sanford]

"So, with the numerous posts and proponents of the Japanese style chisels found in this forum, why didn't anyone tell me that they would be so expensive and time consuming?!?"

Keeping the aura of mystery regarding the cost is all the better to lure others into the madness. Insanity loves company. :D

[Jim Neeley]

...could be so time consuming and expensive?!?

...Chuck "tired hands" Darney

Thanks for the chuckle, Chuck. There's nothing like being seen as an "expert" in something to get you lots and lots of it to do.

I remember the time my wife mentioned to her parents how easy it now was for me to make our own tire and wheel swap on our vehicles, now that I had a tranny jack, compressor, rattle gun & torque wrench. Somehow I was soon changing the tires on their two vehicles too.

No good deed goes unpunished... not that I haven't found myself on a massive sharpening session before!!! :-)

[Frederick Skelly]

Chuck, Im just comparing notes here. How long would you say it took you to sharpen one plane blade, including reworking the primary bevel and then taking it all the way to scary sharp? I use some of the same gear you do, and it seems to go on a loonnnng time.
Fred

[Winton Applegate]

OK, I'll get in here.
I would love to buy one of the nice "Damascus" Japanese kitchen knives. I know just the one I want. Then I pick up my inexpensive Japanese knife I bought at the health food store like twenty five years ago and look at how thin it is. Then I look at how thick the nice fancy knives I want to buy are.
I know I will still use the cheep thin one because it works so well.

The worst cut I ever got from any sharp object was while "trying out" a fancy Japanese kitchen knife I bought to give as a wedding gift. My mistake was talking (arguing) with my long gone girl friend while I sliced. The person was incapable of having a conversation without turning it into a fight. We won't use the B word but you get the idea.
Before I knew it I had the knife buried into my thumb nail. If it weren't for my nail I would have sliced off a good deal of my thumb.
I debated getting stitches. Interesting to see how it healed without. I can still see the collision area after all these years.
I jettisoned the girl and have had no , knock on wood, kitchen problems of that sort since.

My lovely partner is a Pro chef and knows not to talk to me while I am wielding sharp steel. I return the favor when she takes up the sword.

Sharp ? Yes I like my kitchen knives as sharp as I can make them. She wants a heads up when I have sharpened.
Here is my little test for sharp. (Yes shaving hair is dandy and all but . . .)
I take a bell pepper and or a tomato, present the knife vertically to the skin of the veg and the veg at an acute angle. I let the fairly light weight of the knife down on to the skin. The knife is sharp if it sinks into the skin and hangs there (without drawing the knife back or forward). A less than sharp edge will judder down the convex side of the veg or will slip off entirely.

Cutting on a plate ? Yah all I got to do is watch most of the TV chefs and I am climbing the walls with consternation. They must have people who give them new knives or sharpen them for them for every show.
Just taking a knife edge down across the cutting board like a scraper to rake the choppings into the pot is enough to dull the knife or at least curve over the edge. (I flip the knife over and use the back to transfer food off the board.)

Let alone using the knife on a marble "cutting board". Thats NUTS !