WSJ article re depth of upper kitchen cabs.

[Patrick McCarthy]

The Sat/Sun edition of the Wall Street Journal has an article re the "new trend" in upper kitchen cabinets. Author says more people ar opting for 14-16 inch depth and now 21 inch space above counter top rather than the old standard of 18".

The suggested rationale is that a lot of our dishes have gotten larger ( i noticed this with the old diswasher vs new one), so the interior depth of 11" wasn't sufficient. 21" above counter due to the added bulk.

Since i am planning on tearing apart my kitchen next, I am curious as to your thoughts/experiences/etc.

Thank you in advance, patrick

[Phil Thien]

I'm sorry, but that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

First, most (99.99%) of upper cabinets are the standard 12" deep. How long do you think they will continue to manufacture these larger dishes knowing that about 99.99% of those that purchase them bring them back to the store "because they don't fit in the cabinets?"

Second, 14-16" is 2-4" larger. How much larger are the plates anyhow? My plates are pretty large (11", I just checked), who needs a plate larger than that?

Who is behind this large plate nonsense, big agri? Are they trying to get us to eat more food?

I just think it is a terrible idea all around. In five years, nobody is going to be using giant plates.

I'm declaring it a fad.

[Paul Wunder]

Phil, why don't you just tell us what is on your mind. No cause to be shy.:)

[Peter Kelly]

I think stacks of heavy plates in upper cabinets isn't really all that ideal for storage. Blum (http://www.blum.com/us/en/01/50/30/) and Hafele (http://www.hafele.com/us/products/drawer-peg-system.asp) have some nice drawer organizer systems for crockery that really work a lot better for this.

Wouldn't 16" deep upper cabinets block the view of the countertop?

[Richard McComas]

Now I'm embarrassed that I follow fads. My standard up kitchen is 14 1/2'' plus the door. With 3/4 backs it gives me 13'' inside. Nobody ever complained and in fact seems to really like it. I've been doing it that way for a long time now. I explain the extra cost in materials. So far no one turned the option down. I don't get hung up on the height about the counter. Mine range form 18 to 20".


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/rmccomas0043/1512cabinetLarge_zpsaf5183a8.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/rmccomas0043/media/1512cabinetLarge_zpsaf5183a8.jpg.html)

[John A langley]

For a long time now I've been ripping my plywood for my upper cabinets 11-3/4 with a 1/4 back and a 3/4 face frame. It gives me a 11-3/4 interior and a 12-3/4 exterior. It does not cost me any more in material and the ladies love the deeper cabinet. I aim for 17 to 18 inches between countertops and the bottom of upper cabinets. I think that 20" might be getting a little high for some people.

[Julie Moriarty]

Are they trying to get us to eat more food?
We're already doing that...:rolleyes:

There's nothing like trends to get people to spend money. When first time buyers are insisting on granite counter tops, stainless steel appliances, real wood flooring... in the kitchen of a $150K house, there's a problem, with reality.

[Mark W Pugh]

I personally do not see anything wrong with a wider upper cabinet. With all the stuff my better half throws up there, we need a little extra space. We always go for the wider paper plates:D!!!

[peter gagliardi]

Absolutely nothing wrong with extra storage! I have been making extra deep upper cabinets for about the last 10-12 years, along with base cabs 2" taller, and sometimes deeper as well. That's why they call them custom- duh! There is no, I repeat no reason to be pigeonholed into stock sizes especially if they don't fit your needs, stature, or lifestyle. I don't know anyone who puts in 30 or 32" tall vanities in baths anymore, why? Because they just don't work for us any more- been doing that for at least 25 years as well. It's your house, have what you like and need.
Peter

[johnny means]

In general, Grandma's kitchen doesn't work for the modern consumer. Their are lots of things becoming standard in todays kitchens that may have seemed unnecessary or silly in the 1960s. I'm pretty sure double vanities and walk-in closets weren't standard 30 years ago. Remember when a master bathroom wasn't the size of a small bedroom. IMO, 12" deep uppers have been inadequate for a lot of uses, including my plates, for a long time now. Consumers want products to improve over time and I see no reason why more spacious cabinets wouldn't become the standard.

[Patrick McCarthy]

[QUOTE= We always go for the wider paper plates:D!!![/QUOTE]

Mark, very funny.

[Phil Thien]

There's nothing like trends to get people to spend money.

Exactly right.

Dr. Seuss himself covered this topic in the Sneetches story.

See, some of the Sneetches had stars on their bellies ("stars upon thars"). Other Sneetches did not have stars.

Now, the Sneetches with stars walked around acting all superior and stuff. One day a fellow named McBean shows up with a star machine, and charges star-less Sneetches money to get a star on their belly. Pretty soon, all the Sneetches are the same, they all have stars.

Of course, the Sneetches that had original stars did not like the new equality. And McBean had a solution. He had a machine that could remove a star. So he charges those Sneetches to have their stars removed, and they could once again walk around acting all superior.

Of course, this goes on and on, with McBean getting rich.

See my point? This is EXACTLY what is happening now. Pretty soon, the new fad will be square plates. An 11" square plate has almost the exact same area as a 12" round plate. And the cooking show hosts will say things like "well of course everyone should use square plates. If you have large round plates and cabinets to accommodate them, we encourage you to have all that replaced with square plates and cabinets that will accommodate them and nothing more."

If you guys haven't read the Sneetches story, you really should. It covers everything you need to know about kitchens.

[Mark W Pugh]

..... I don't know anyone who puts in 30 or 32" tall vanities in baths anymore......
Peter


I built one for my mom. People should consider higher vanities standard. Why bend over darn near 90 deg to brush you're teeth?

[Richard McComas]

Spending money is a good thing. It keeps helps keep the economy going. If no one spends money there is no economy and McBean can't provide any jobs. I think I'll stick to what customers want.

[Phil Thien]

Spending money is a good thing. It keeps helps keep the economy going. If no one spends money there is no economy and McBean can't provide any jobs. I think I'll stick to what customers want.

That is obviously the right approach.

But I have a question: What percentage of prospects ask for deeper cabinets without any prompting from you?

[Matt Meiser]

I did a mix of 12" deep and 15" deep cabinets plus 24 over the fridge.

The "15 inch" deep 42" tall corner cabinet is HUGE. I can barely reach the back of the topmost shelves. The 15" one over the coffee area holds the Keurig organizers we bought which wouldn't have fit a standard 12" cabinet.

Extra deep over the stove would have presented a problem installing our GE microwave.

[Dave Zellers]

21" off the counter??????????

Mine are 15" and we like them that way!!!! ;) 21 is ridiculous. As far as the depth goes, I suppose the deeper they are the higher they need to be.

Being in the custom cabinet biz, I think custom is good. If someone has a need for 16" deep upper cabs, then build 'em. And provide more space under them. But I certainly think following some supposed "trend" toward really deep upper cabs is not something I would do automatically just because that's what the trendy articles are showing.

Patrick- build the kitchen that fits your needs. If you've noticed your dishes are bigger, then build cabinets to accommodate them.

I'm in the midst of redoing our kitchen and in a conversation with a friend, I tried to explain why it was taking so long, that I was hoping to build something special that would last for a long time and he just shrugged and said fine but probably when we sell our house, the new buyers will rip them out and install what they want. I think he's right.

Build what you want.

[Sam Murdoch]

Since i am planning on tearing apart my kitchen next, I am curious as to your thoughts/experiences/etc.

Thank you in advance, patrick

"My kitchen" is the operative phrase. Build to suit your needs. All these issues are so subjective. My wife and I like the uppers a full 12" deep (and I typically build this depth for clients) but if you have a few charger plates that need to be stored or otherwise oversized dinner ware yeah, factor in at least one deeper cabinet but measure your stuff and build accordingly. As for the height from the top of of the c-top, again what are your needs? Are you or your spouse short or tall? Do you have kids who are expected to put the dishes away? Are all your cabinets set at 36" above the floor or are you allowing for a shorter work station? Will you store all kinds of gadgets and/or appliances on the c-top? How tall are those? Sometimes 16" of clearance with under cabinet lights included is plenty high enough. You get my point. It really is all about how you will use these.

[Richard McComas]

Reply to Phil

More don't ask that do, but several have. I had one lady bring out a big ole platter and ask if I could build her upper cabinet so she could store her platter in them. Those who don't ask I do suggest it. I don't suggest it to increase the price of the project. I suggest just so they know their cabinet will be custom and they can have what the want. I also like to suggest they think about all drawers in the base cabinet. That's another "fad" in the making. So many just don't know what standard sized cabinet are to begin with. Many also don't know what's available in hardware and organizers ect. I believe it my job to lay out all the option I know and let them decide. I also believe it's in by best interest that the customer is happy when the Project is finished.

That being said I only do 1 to 2 kitchens a year, some times not that. I'm not a pro "just a 3 day a week hack" as I have a day job that pays the bills. I even have two kitchens now that were pro bono except for the materials. I just like building cabinets.

[Phil Thien]

More don't ask that do, but several have...I even have two kitchens now that were pro bono except for the materials. I just like building cabinets.

Outstanding feedback, thanks Richard!

[Gene Davis]

I have built plenty of kitchens and I thought it was a good idea. The 3" raise coupled with the 2" depth increase for the uppers means the sight line is relatively unchanged when viewing the counter. All these big coffeemakers are certainly taller than what we had just ten years ago.

I always specify that instead of outlets in the wall above the backspash, they be done as a plug-strip right up along the wall right under the wall cabinet bottom decks, mounted to a bevel-ripped strip so as to angle about 30 degrees down. Eliminates all those unsightly receptacles that interrupt your nice expensive tile backsplash. The height increase makes these plug strips more accessible.

[Gene Davis]

Here is the way to do a corner wall. Hafele D-susans.

[Dave Zellers]

I totally agree! I am always trying to sell my clients on blue painters tape pulls, but they always end up buying some fancy dancy pewter thingies.

We need a magazine to feature the simplicity and beauty of the painter's tape pull.

Wait- you were talking about the turn-a-rounds.

[Dale Murray]

Interesting thread.

Just bought a house and realize I need to gut the kitchen and intend to build cabinets, the issue of depth has been discussed. The current cabinets are 12" and there are not enough of them. I have been thinking 14" would be the magic numbers.

With all this talking about raising them to 21" consider this, some women are quite short. I am over 6' and my wife is 5'. If I start putting cabinets 21" above the counter I may never sit down again in my life as I will endlessly be grabbing things from shelves she cannot reach. Something to keep in mind.

[Caspar Hauser]

.....

With all this talking about raising them to 21" consider this, some women are quite short. I am over 6' and my wife is 5'. If I start putting cabinets 21" above the counter I may never sit down again in my life as I will endlessly be grabbing things from shelves she cannot reach. Something to keep in mind.

My kitchen has 9' ceilings, my wife is 5' 2", she insisted on cabinets that go all the way to the ceiling.....

CH

[Caspar Hauser]

I totally agree! I am always trying to sell my clients on blue painters tape pulls, but they always end up buying some fancy dancy pewter thingies.

I have one frustratingly indecisive client who is at least a year and a half into her painters tape experience with no end in sight.

[Phil Thien]

some women are quite short. I am over 6' and my wife is 5'.

I'm not clear on your point. Are you saying the cabinets should not be higher because our wives may not be able to reach, or we should get taller wives if we want to raise the cabinets?

If you think a new kitchen is expensive, wait until you price a new wife!

:)

[Rod Sheridan]

If you think a new kitchen is expensive, wait until you price a new wife!

:)

Phil, that just might be post of the month............LOL..............Rod.

[johnny means]

If you think a new kitchen is expensive, wait until you price a new wife!

:)

The way prices are rising, the new wife might be a bargain:D

[Peter Quinn]

I have lots of plates that either don't fit or barely fit in my standard sized uppers, and my stand mixer does't make it under the uppers. The dinner plates do but the serving platters miss by a hair. When I redo my own kitchen the uppers will be a little little higher and a little deeper. Maybe not 14" inside, but close. I'm thinking 20" off the counter? I haven't really figured it out specifically, but a little bit bigger is for sure. I'm not sure its a government conspiracy or a radical fad. I just want my stuff to fit in the cabs. More drawers would be nice too. I may even upgrade the 40 amp two fuse service and put in indoor plumbing too. Times change, I'm a rebel, I want to be ahead of the curve.

[Dave Zellers]

I may even ... put in indoor plumbing too. Times change, I'm a rebel, I want to be ahead of the curve.
Don't do it! I hear Better Homes and Gardens is preparing an issue on the beauty and simplicity of the 3-holer.

[Peter Quinn]

Don't do it! I hear Better Homes and Gardens is preparing an issue on the beauty and simplicity of the 3-holer.

Thats probably where the "his and hers" dual vanity sinks thing came from. Honestly, I know people for whom that is the essence of luxury not to be missed, I find it the most foolish waste of porcelain imaginable. I've managed to brush my teeth in the same sink as my wife for 20 years now and have no strong urge to upgrade. I'd love to have his and hers toilets, but there simply isn't room in the yard for another pit....that three hole concept sounds intriguing....reminds me of scout camp.

[Bruce Wrenn]

A bit of history. Cabinets used to be built in place. Uppers were a 1 X12 plus a 3/4 face frame. Face frame was held together with corragated fasteners Seldom did they have backs. Thus the 12" depth.

[Ethan Melad]

I designed and built our kitchen with uppers 21' off the counter. this allows for a 2" valence to hide the undercabinet lights and accommodates any larger countertop appliances. unless you're extremely short (and i'm not a tall at all) the added space under the cabinets is really helpful. in addition, if you mount your lighting towards the front of the cabinet (our electrician unfortunately decided to ignore me on this one in our house..) you get a nicer, brighter reflected light.

[David Weaver]

Thats probably where the "his and hers" dual vanity sinks thing came from. Honestly, I know people for whom that is the essence of luxury not to be missed, I find it the most foolish waste of porcelain imaginable. I've managed to brush my teeth in the same sink as my wife for 20 years now and have no strong urge to upgrade. I'd love to have his and hers toilets, but there simply isn't room in the yard for another pit....that three hole concept sounds intriguing....reminds me of scout camp.

There seems to be no limit to the "i need that" mentality of the rank and file (of which I am part) in terms of how big their house needs to be, how expensive their building materials need to be (granite, etc, in $150k houses, as Julie mentioned).

I'm always semi-shocked at statements that people will make to me when they say "what are you doing in your house", "oh, you're putting in granite, aren't you?..."

No. I live in one of those houses slightly above the level Julie mentioned. Property appreciates, house depreciates. If you haven't made your retirement secure yet, it's follow-the-sheep-in-front-of-you foolishness to spend money on things like that essentially so you can meet the expectations of other people. And it seems far more common than sensibility. I am building uppers for my kitchen right now, and they are 12" deep. All of my dishes actually fit in them, but cabinet on the diagonal will be deep enough that it can accept dishes up to 14" wide, so I guess we have a cushion. I'm sure that some of our friends will tell us what we need to have for countertops, ask us how big of a loan we're cleared for (something I have *zero* interest in participating in - the loan part on a depreciating asset), and offer to hook us up with "their guy" as if it's a club. And they'll tell us that we should have deeper cabinets in the top of our kitchen because that's what someone told them or they read it in a magazine.

Now, were I making the cabinets for other people professionally, I'd let people get whatever they want. I'd probably even suggest what's in the magazines, etc, because their friends will expect them to have it, too. While I'm making something we essentially see as a consumable these days (that's how we see kitchens now, right? They're consumable, whenever you fear what someone else might think about your kitchen being out of date, you consume another one)...I'll stick with the layout that's there and replace what needs to be replaced and concern myself with being prepared for retirement and kids' college funds.

[david brum]

The issue of cabinet depth could be resolved immediately if Freud would introduce a porcelain cutting "Plate Blade" for the table saw. A few quick passes on Great Grandmother's serving platter and your storage problems are over.

[David Weaver]

One straight down the middle and some hook an loop on each half of it would solve the problem just fine, right?

Then take it to the antiques road show and tell them you believe it to be "an original modification...from back when they stitched hook and loop by hand" :)

[Art Mulder]

consider this, some women are quite short. I am over 6' and my wife is 5'.

Now now, be fair. Some men are quite short also. But then, at 6'3", I think lots of people are quite short...

Can we talk about standard heights of cars next? Cuz I'm telling you, getting enough headroom is not always easy! :D;)

...art

ps: I like the 11-3/4" option mentioned above. Quite the economic use of materials.

[Rod Sheridan]

Art, that would be me at 5' 7"..........However I am planning to make full height kitchen cabinets that are 14" deep outside dimension this winter.

I'll make a step stool as well:D..............Rod.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have made cabinets for tall people that were over 36" counter height, but it messes with appliances. I make uppers whatever they want, and at whatever height off of the counter they want. See, if you want a cabinet that is 14 5/8" inside, I can do that. The box stores can't. Same with toe kicks, what do you want? You want the top rail to be hickory the bottom to be oak, the sides maple and the panel cherry? I can do that!

Mine are 12 to use material the most efficiently.

I still have painters tape on some of my cabinets, I can't find where I put the rest of the pulls...........

In my new house the cabinets will have no plywood in them at all, so I may mess with sizes and do an Smallbones style unfitted kitchen.

Larry

[Roger Rayburn]

I'm sorry, but that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

First, most (99.99%) of upper cabinets are the standard 12" deep. How long do you think they will continue to manufacture these larger dishes knowing that about 99.99% of those that purchase them bring them back to the store "because they don't fit in the cabinets?"

Second, 14-16" is 2-4" larger. How much larger are the plates anyhow? My plates are pretty large (11", I just checked), who needs a plate larger than that?

Who is behind this large plate nonsense, big agri? Are they trying to get us to eat more food?

I just think it is a terrible idea all around. In five years, nobody is going to be using giant plates.

I'm declaring it a fad.
Martha Stewart just called to tell me she hates you.

[Rick Potter]

OK, you want custom, I got custom, and this was definitely at the request of the client (wife). She also designed it all.

Top cabinets are mostly 13" deep, with a couple at 16" and one at 19". 19" above the bottoms, mostly, as they vary up and down, as well as in and out. Red oak for all except one cabinet which is maple.

The bottoms are standard 36" high, but are 24 1/4" deep. This accommodates the drawer depth of a full 24", except for the top drawers which are 22" because of the nail rail....no backs, they take up storage room. The bottoms are ALL drawers, with some banks of drawers behind raised panel doors, all the top drawers are normal with faces, but there are some with acrylic windows in them for beans, macaroni etc., just for giggles. Oh yeah, there are also eight drawers in what are the toe kicks. Three inches deep, they slide open on the floor on felt pads, and hold stuff like grates, cookie sheets, and a pizza stone.

She designed the kitchen to hold the dishes and pans we have, drawers are different heights for individual uses, very few are the same. We also did the kitchen in a bay window shape, to match a bay window 8' in front of it. There will be 8 inch deep cabinets all around the front of the bay with a serving counter on top. These will also incorporate the corners of the bay shape for more display shelves and storage.

Try to get that at IKEA. Not finished with it yet, about 75% done, then she designs the 3 walk in closets and the walk in pantry with 9' tall shelves and cabs.

Pray for me.
Rick Potter

[David Weaver]

My wife is pushing for drawers in the toe kicks on our cabinets. I'm undecided on it, but I haven't built the bottoms yet, so one or two of them may get a drawer. I do kind of like the idea of toe-kick drawers.

[Phil Thien]

My wife is pushing for drawers in the toe kicks on our cabinets. I'm undecided on it, but I haven't built the bottoms yet, so one or two of them may get a drawer. I do kind of like the idea of toe-kick drawers.

With our dog, anything at that level would be prone to accumulating dog hair. I don't know how he does it, he seems to be able to control the blowing of his coat into a directional thing.

Without dog, it would be awesome.

[David C. Roseman]

My wife is pushing for drawers in the toe kicks on our cabinets. I'm undecided on it, but I haven't built the bottoms yet, so one or two of them may get a drawer. I do kind of like the idea of toe-kick drawers.

David, that sparked a thought. If you hinged the toekicks at the top, you and your wife could just use your feet to flip them up and slide the dog bowls out of sight between feedings. You could call them "Canine Kabinet Kicks." Petco and Pet Smart might be interested. If your dogs lick the bowls clean between meals, you'd never even have to pick the bowls up off the floor. Huge time saver over the life of the average dog.

David

[Phil Thien]

Martha Stewart just called to tell me she hates you.

The reality is, she probably would not like me very much.

[David Weaver]

With our dog, anything at that level would be prone to accumulating dog hair. I don't know how he does it, he seems to be able to control the blowing of his coat into a directional thing.

Without dog, it would be awesome.

Yeah, we are without dog. My wife is anti-dirt, period. So sometimes she's anti husband. But we will definitely not ever have any pets as long as I'm married. It's in her genes.

[Richard Shaefer]

the premise of the article runs directly counter to what I'm seeing in the latest homes. There's a distinct trend to move away from upper cabinets entirely and have a walk-in style pantry directly adjacent to the kitchen.

Don't much care either way, since there's work to be had for built-in pantry cabinetry or work to be had buildign wider kitchen tables for these allegedly popular big dinner plates. ;)

[Mark Bolton]

the premise of the article runs directly counter to what I'm seeing in the latest homes. There's a distinct trend to move away from upper cabinets entirely and have a walk-in style pantry directly adjacent to the kitchen.

Don't much care either way, since there's work to be had for built-in pantry cabinetry or work to be had buildign wider kitchen tables for these allegedly popular big dinner plates. ;)


Huh,.. This would be effective in large open area kitchens with little wall space, large islands, and so on. We are building cabs for such a kitchen right now. The kitchen incorporates an 8'x8' pantry directly off the kitchen with only about <20' for uppers (9 uppers total). But there would still be a need for uppers above all wall bases no?

I personally have no quams with whatever depth uppers anyone see's the need for in their own kitchen. A 14" upper however makes no sense to me in that I am generally trying to maximize sheet stock so 12" or 16" finished would make the most sense.

My feeling is exactly as has been said, fad or not I will take the money to build the kitchen the customer wants. I will of course give my input but if they want it so be it. So much depends on the space the cabs are going in, style of cabinet, scale of the kitchen, and so on. In a small tight kitchen, increased depth uppers would close the space, large open kitchen, of course, and so on.

[Phil Thien]

the premise of the article runs directly counter to what I'm seeing in the latest homes. There's a distinct trend to move away from upper cabinets entirely and have a walk-in style pantry directly adjacent to the kitchen.

Now that I believe (because I've seen it happening, too), and I can get behind it, too. Kitchens w/o uppers are pretty awesome. And nothing beats a pantry for oodles of storage.

[George Gyulatyan]

What percentage of prospects ask for deeper cabinets without any prompting from you?What percentage of people would travel to Egypt to see the pyramids if they didn't know there were pyramids in Egypt?

[Kent A Bathurst]

FWIW -

1) My resident gourmet chef has a variety of dishes. Some definitely require deeper-than-standard cabinets. Which is why they sit on free-standing stainless steel restaurant racks against one wall.
2) WSJ? They are not reporting on dining habits in Springfield, IL. Youse guys often go to big-city upscale restaurants? Take your tape measures when you do.

[Brian Ross]

I build kitchens but on top of a few home renos every year. Will only do three kitchens this year. One thing to consider is your local building code if building for customers. Living in Ontario we are required to have 18 inches of clearance from the nearest flammable surface above the stove. This 18 inches extends 16 inches to either side of the stove Most in my area have a 2 in valance to cover the lighting attached to the bottom of the uppers so that with a 2 in valance you need to have the uppers 20 inches above the base cabinets unless you want to end the valance 16 inches from the stove which would look kind of ridiculous. I have found that most people know very little about cabinets other than that is where they put their dishes and food products. By taking the time to explain the other possibilities re depths,pull outs and the numerous other options that are available people are appreciative. From a business point of view they are also willing to pay more which makes me happy and it gives them bragging rights with their friends. Brian