new toys from Japan

[Paul Saffold]

From Stu at toolsfromjapan.com. Atoma 400 diamond plate, inexpensive mortice gauge, Koyamaichi chisels and a hammer. Replaced the wing-nut on the mortice gauge with a M6 epoxied into a scrap of cherry. Much more comfortable to use. Stripped the lacquer finish from the hammer and chisels and set the hoops.


I wish I had gotten a diamond plate years ago to flatten my water stones. I had gone from sandpaper then to drywall screen on a ceramic tile. What a huge improvement both in flatness and time saved with with the diamond plate.


Now I need more freehand sharpening practice as the chisels don't fit in my eclipse type jig.

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[Chris Griggs]

Nice! I've got some toys from Stu that should be arriving next week. He should rename his store Toys From Japan

[David Weaver]

You'll love the chisels. Be gentle with the sharpening, you don't want to waste them.

They are the best of the inexpensive chisels that I've used so far.

[Jack Curtis]

You'll love the chisels. Be gentle with the sharpening, you don't want to waste them.

They are the best of the inexpensive chisels that I've used so far.

Inexpensive? Granted, not as expensive as Tasai and the like, but $60-90 per is not inexpensive. What's the most you've ever paid for a chisel, David?

[Rick Fisher]

Good haul Paul .. Nice looking stuff .. How do you like the hammer ?

[David Weaver]

Inexpensive? Granted, not as expensive as Tasai and the like, but $60-90 per is not inexpensive. What's the most you've ever paid for a chisel, David?

They are $47-$60 for chisels 3 to 24mm.

And more than $60 would answer the second question.$47 to $60 is pretty inexpensive for very very good japanese chisels.

[Paul Saffold]

Rick, I haven't used it enough to know. My left thumb still likes it.:) I'm used to using my shop made wooden mallet so it will take a little getting used to. When I pick up the mallet I know what way the head is facing without looking, not so with the hammer. And I guess you are supposed to hit the chisel with the concave face. I may have to contour the handle a bit. I saw a post somewhere about that, maybe Wilbur's blog. The hammer I got is a generic one, nothing fancy, octagonal or made by an individual craftsman.

[Jack Curtis]

They are $47-$60 for chisels 3 to 24mm.

And more than $60 would answer the second question.$47 to $60 is pretty inexpensive for very very good japanese chisels.

Well, I've paid 5 times that; and while I love those expensive chisels, I don't think there's five times the performance there. Also, I'm guessing that $47 is the latest price, right? Last I looked it was more, but it's not a big deal. I consider $10 or $20 inexpensive. It's all relative, of course; but still, no reason to try to make the op feel bad.

And how about that set of 10 Ichihiro for $9800? That's $980 per.

[Paul Saffold]

Jack, please don't stir the pot here. The description is perfectly accurate. I know there was no ill will intended at all.

"It's all relative, of course; but still, no reason to try to make the op feel bad."

[David Weaver]

It was to make the OP feel good. My user bench chisels were $60 per. My koyamaichi dovetail chisels were bought at $50 per about 7 years ago. I think they are GREAT chisels and if my discount bench chisels somehow went dud, the koyamaichi are what I would buy to replace them.

When stu said he was meeting KI long ago, I begged him to carry them. They are the best chisels I know of when you compare price to performance and I don't know of any measure more relevant.

Jack, you read it exactly wrong.

[Wilbur Pan]

Rick, I haven't used it enough to know. My left thumb still likes it.:) I'm used to using my shop made wooden mallet so it will take a little getting used to. When I pick up the mallet I know what way the head is facing without looking, not so with the hammer. And I guess you are supposed to hit the chisel with the concave face. I may have to contour the handle a bit. I saw a post somewhere about that, maybe Wilbur's blog. The hammer I got is a generic one, nothing fancy, octagonal or made by an individual craftsman.

Your hammer should have a flat face and a convex face. You're supposed to hit the chisel with the flat face. The convex side is for driving the head of a nail flush with the surface of the wood without marring the wood.

Sometimes there's a maker's mark on the underside of the hammer head, which is usually on the side of the flat face. That's one way of figuring out which face is which without having to remake a new handle. I've heard David Charlesworth marked the handle of the hammer with an arrow pointing to the flat face, which is another option.

Having said all that, I really like the curved handle on my hammer (http://giantcypress.net/post/48190641886/hammer-of-the-gods) the more that I use it.

[Paul Saffold]

Thanks for chiming in Wilbur. After my post about the hammer last night I went to your blog and found the post you just linked to. It's on my to do list.
Paul

[Jack Curtis]

It was to make the OP feel good. My user bench chisels were $60 per. My koyamaichi dovetail chisels were bought at $50 per about 7 years ago. I think they are GREAT chisels and if my discount bench chisels somehow went dud, the koyamaichi are what I would buy to replace them.

When stu said he was meeting KI long ago, I begged him to carry them. They are the best chisels I know of when you compare price to performance and I don't know of any measure more relevant.

Jack, you read it exactly wrong.

Well, good, much more positive. I think Paul got a great deal, too. He should be very happy.

[Jack Curtis]

...I really like the curved handle on my hammer (http://giantcypress.net/post/48190641886/hammer-of-the-gods) the more that I use it.

Great post. How close to lining up with the flat face does the curved part of the handle bottom come?

[Sam Murdoch]

In addition to shaping a curve to the handle, I added a few thumb notches on the back side (away from the flat face). I do not always position my hand in the same place for striking the chisels but the notches are in the "normal" resting place of my thumb and is a very natural no look way of insuring that I am striking with the correct surface.

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[Ron Kellison]

It was to make the OP feel good. My user bench chisels were $60 per. My koyamaichi dovetail chisels were bought at $50 per about 7 years ago. I think they are GREAT chisels and if my discount bench chisels somehow went dud, the koyamaichi are what I would buy to replace them.

When stu said he was meeting KI long ago, I begged him to carry them. They are the best chisels I know of when you compare price to performance and I don't know of any measure more relevant.

I guess I was just born under a lucky star! I did quite a bit of business travel to Japan starting in the late 80's and ending in 2002. Through contacts at the Canadian Embassy I was introduced to a local woodworker who told me that Koyamaichi made a very good chisel and were highly thought of by people who made their living working with wood. Over the years I managed to acquire a set of bench chisels (3, 6, 9, 12, 18 and 42mm), 3 dovetail chisels (3, 6, 9mm) and 2 long-handled detail chisels (6, 12mm). The only one still on my wish list (next trip!) is a 9mm fishtail. They are all indeed excellent. Easy to sharpen and they seem to hold an edge forever! My old plastic handled Sandviks are the ones I loan out or let my buddies use when they're in the shop.

That said, my favourite dovetail chisel is a 6mm blue steel Miyanaga. The steel seems noticeably harder than my Koyamaichi chisels but when properly sharpened it makes chopping seem as easy as paring! It was also about 3 times as expensive as the 6mm Koyamaichi.

Best regards,

Ron

[Wilbur Pan]

Great post. How close to lining up with the flat face does the curved part of the handle bottom come?

Thanks, Jack! I really appreciate it.

The curved part of the handle winds up being about 1/4" behind the plane of the flat face of the hammer.

[Rick Fisher]

Sigh, I asked about the Japanese hammer.. Then the chat turns to hammers.. Then I go to Wilbur's blog page and read.. now I want a Japanese hammer..

I have Japanese hammer envy now..

[Chris Vandiver]

In addition to shaping a curve to the handle, I added a few thumb notches on the back side (away from the flat face). I do not always position my hand in the same place for striking the chisels but the notches are in the "normal" resting place of my thumb and is a very natural no look way of insuring that I am striking with the correct surface.

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Sam, nice looking hammer!

[Jack Curtis]

Sigh, I asked about the Japanese hammer.. Then the chat turns to hammers.. Then I go to Wilbur's blog page and read.. now I want a Japanese hammer..

I have Japanese hammer envy now..

Everyone should, they're great hammers.

[Wilbur Pan]

Thanks for chiming in Wilbur. After my post about the hammer last night I went to your blog and found the post you just linked to. It's on my to do list.
Paul

Go for it. It's not that hard to do. It should take a couple of hours at most, even if you haven't done this before. After all, it's a lot like making a mortise and tenon joint, except that the mortise has already been made for you. Most of my time was taken by trying to get the right position for the curve before marking for the tenon.

[Derek Cohen]

Here's a genno of mine. A couple of years ago I built a handle for a Tenryuu gennou head that I received from So.

[http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Mallets%20and%20hammers/a6af24ad-70f1-4ab5-b07b-476463191586_zpsa4f42527.jpg

The article, with some build directions, is at http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AHandleforaGennou.html

For those interested in the Koyamaichi dovetail chisels, I have a few words here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels_html_m503d1791.jpg

As I mentioned in the article, thanks go to David Charlesworth for alerting me to these about a decade ago, and then to Stu, for helping me fill in the gaps (I had the first custom chisels from Mr Koyama a few years ago).

Lastly, another plug for the Large Ryuma from Stu, which can be modified ver easily into a superb cutting gauge: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?203733-Cutting-gauge-from-a-pig-s-ear

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

My new toys from Stu just got delivered to my office! Sweet!

As you can see Stu does not screw around when it comes to packing....

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The goods... A GyoKucho/Razorsaw Kugihiki as well as a Dozuki with w/ a "mortice/azebeki" tip. Most exciting for me though are the 2 Koyoma-ichi white steel parers I got in 9mm and 18mm. Can't wait to get them honed up and put to use. BTW, there has been a lot of talk about preparing Japanese chisels lately, but that was specifically in regard to a mistreated chisel. If these were western chisels I would just flatten/polish the area right behind the edge. BUT for these should I work the whole back or just the area near the edge. I don't want to unnecessarily shrink the hollow, but I also encountered a japanese chisel once that had been worked so hard just behind the edge that a ridge had been created between the polished are and the unworked area. I've never had that happen on a western chisel. Is that "ridge" something that is more likely to happen on one of these because the hollow decreases the amount of steel being worked? Or was that ridge in the one chisel I encountered just the result of it being worked WAY to hard?

What say you Dave, Stan, Stu, Wilber, et. al.? Is there anything special I need to keep in mind when preparing these that is different than if I working up the back of a western chisel? Does the fact that they are paring chisels change the way you'd prepare them as well?

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[David Weaver]

Focus your finger pressure near the bevel so you don't grind away a bunch of the ura. Use your second hand to keep the chisels from flopping around while you flatten the back (so your finger pressure can control where the metal is removed). Don't let the blade creep half on a stone and half off, or you'll quickly grind into the sides of the ura since there isn't much metal there on the surface. It's either just a little on or all on the stone (if the ura happens to be dead nuts flat all the way to the handle with nothing interfering on the stone - beware of the handle or back of the ura being below everything else, that will relegate you to working only half an inch or so on the stone).

That's pretty much it. KI does a good job of keeping the back pretty close to flat, so you probably won't find much work to do. If you find you can get the whole back on the stone, that's a bonus if you like to do that, esp. on a long handled chisel, but still rely on fingure pressure to focus where the work should be done.

That's a long winded way of saying don't grind down the back in the middle of the chisel by accident because you've allowed it to scrape on the edge of a stone.

They're pretty straight forward and they grease right through the wood. You'll love them.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Dave. I'll need to get home and put one of my western chisels on a stone to see how this is different from what I normally do. I think, that while I typically apply the most pressure with my left hand holding down the tip I still use my right hand (the one closer to the handle)to apply some pressure and also just to help with the back and forth motion. Sounds like with these I really want to leave the right hand out of the mix and just use it to support the handle.

I do do the on and off the stone back and forth thing sometimes when preparing western chisels to deliberately work the inside of the back more create a slight concavity down the length of the chisel but TOTALLY see how that would be a no no for a japanese chisel.

I think I'll start by trying to work the whole back...if they're almost flat anyway, might as well try and keep them that way. My finish stone will quickly show how far off they are. As far as fitting the whole blade on the stone, is there any reason not to hold the blade to it run down the length of the stone and just do short side to side motions across the width? What about back and forth motions with motions with the whole back on the stone? The handles are canted up just enough that I could get a pretty good motion moving forward and back and still keep the whole back in contact with the stone.

The hollows on these things are incredible by the way...the back is almost entirely hollow. Pretty sweet.

[David Weaver]

Just hold it perpendicular to the stone's length (like you normally would) and work it the length of the stone. Don't worry about the stones ends, it'll be too much fiddling and the whole process will probably be over quickly.

Your second hand will definitely still have to hold it up with the long handle, just don't let it rotate/lift the chisel on the surface and create extra work for you.

[Chris Griggs]

Just hold it perpendicular to the stone's length (like you normally would) and work it the length of the stone. Don't worry about the stones ends, it'll be too much fiddling and the whole process will probably be over quickly.

Your second hand will definitely still have to hold it up with the long handle, just don't let it rotate/lift the chisel on the surface and create extra work for you.

Cool. Simple enough....I'm probably overthinking it. Sounds like if I do what normal and just pay a little extra attention to pressure and motion all will be well. Thanks Dave.

I have a feeling I'm REALLY going to like these!

[David Weaver]

Almost forgot. If the narrow one seems tippy or like it wants to roll, work it on the diagonal a little. That'll keep you from giving in to the temptation to work it in and out of the stone or over an edge.

[Tony Shea]

Chris you will def like your new chisels. I'm a bit envious of all the TFJ orders. I will need to make one right off here for a couple stones. The prices are just stupid low right now and I must take advantage of it. It starts to become a problem as I start adding things to the order to make shipping seem worth it and before I know it I'm spending much more than I should be.

Flattening the back is not going to be hard, I assume. I have had trouble with one of KI's wide chisels that took a bit of work to get done, but the blade is over a 1.5". Your chisels should def be a bit nicer to get to where they need to be. As Dave pointed out, the biggest thing to look out for if you work the whole back is getting up into the tapered conical part which would def cause an issue. But this is no different than any other chisel with a socket. You'll figure it out.

[Chris Griggs]

I hear ya Tony, its hard not to keep ordering from Stu when things are so low...It was really hard not to put 3 or 4 chisels in the cart when I ordered mine (and I keep looking at the prices on a daily basis and having to resist throwing a 24mm or 30mm parer in there too). These first world problem are tough sometimes...:rolleyes:

Did you decide what stones to get? Sigma 1200? What else you throwing in the cart?


Yeah the flattening should be easy...I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to do something that would be fine on a western chisel but mess up Japanese chisel. As always, Dave did a good job explaining what to do, what not to do, what matters, and what doesn't.

[Wilbur Pan]

If these were western chisels I would just flatten/polish the area right behind the edge. BUT for these should I work the whole back or just the area near the edge. I don't want to unnecessarily shrink the hollow, but I also encountered a japanese chisel once that had been worked so hard just behind the edge that a ridge had been created between the polished are and the unworked area. I've never had that happen on a western chisel. Is that "ridge" something that is more likely to happen on one of these because the hollow decreases the amount of steel being worked? Or was that ridge in the one chisel I encountered just the result of it being worked WAY to hard?

FWIW, when I sharpen up my Japanese chisels, I work the bevel and the back, and I tend to work about 1" worth of the back, much like you would when preparing a western chisel. Except for when the chisel is brand new, I use my finest grit waterstone on the back during this process, so any worries about creating the ridge you describe are pretty minimized. Overall, I don't worry too much about reducing the hollow prematurely.

BTW, I see that you're in Philly. If you want to make the drive up to central NJ, I'd be glad to show you some of this in person.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks guys. I didn't have any real time in the shop to speak of last night but I did manage to hone up the 18mm. I put the whole back on my 8k running parrallel to the stone to see where I was starting from. It showed a slight concavity down the length, which I consider a good thing, and a low area just behind the cutting edge, which needed to be honed out. Put as much of the chisel as would fit on my 800 perpendicular the length (so normal) and worked the back until the whole area behind the cutting edge was being hit. This went very VERY quickly...like maybe 40 strokes on the 800, until the whole area behind he cutting edge was hit.

Took the chisel to my 8k and then to CrOx on my hard urethane strop and got it widdling hanging hairs in no time. I probably won't continue to work the whole back in the future as the back should never need to be put on anything other than my finest stones, but it is nice that came as flat as is did and that the biggest out of flat that it is is a concavity down the length, again, a good thing.

Anyway, WOW such nice steel. I've only ever has one other chisel (a vintage, Buck I think, parer) that I could get to cut hanging hairs. More importantly this KI did indeed grease through both super soft white pine and hard maple end grain. There were 2 streaks in the otherwise burnished end grain indicating that there are either a couple deeper scratches/mill marks or micro chips in the edge that I didn't fully hone out. For most chisels I would probably just let them get worked out in subsequent honings but because the plan with these chisels is to rarely need to drop them below 8k (on bevel or back) I'll probably go back and work them out sooner than later...shouldn't take more than a minute or two though.

Thanks for the advice guys...yeah, really not that different from a Western chisel, but I'm glad I asked. There's just so little steel on the back I can see how lack of care or too heavy of a hand in the wrong place could yield a less than ideal result, in a way that it wouldn't on a western chisel. And Dave, thanks for recommending these things to me...really just such nice chisels.

Wilbur, yeah, one of these days I'll come crash your workshop...lord knows when, time is always hard to come by. If nothing else I'll bring my Kanna along as I never did get that thing working very well.

[Tony Shea]

Wilbur, yeah, one of these days I'll come crash your workshop...lord knows when, time is always hard to come by. If nothing else I'll bring my Kanna along as I never did get that thing working very well.

That's too bad you haven't got your kanna working that well yet. I don't use my kanna's a lot as most of my planing is rough and finish planing is a very short process. But when I do use them I am in awe every time they touch the wood. It can become a bit of a problem as I want to plane more wood than I should be just because of how well they work. There is no other plane in my arsenal that can take such a thin and full width shaving as my kanna's. I have some decent LN smoothers (no infills though) that are beauty's but still can't leave the same surface behind as the kanna's. I highly recommend figuring them out Chris, you will not be disappointed.

Does KI offer any of their paring chisels in a multiple hollow configuration? I run into issues some times while paring a corner with my Japanese chisels with the single large hallow. I'd like to get myself a couple decent Japanese parers with multiple hollow backs.

[Chris Griggs]

I don't know if KI makes multiple hollow parers... (though I'm pretty sure they make multiple hollow bench chisels). Hopefully Stu will see your question. If I were to get a KI parer larger than my 18mm I too think the option for multiple hollows would be nice.

I had the Kanna working ok for a while on softwoods, but it always chattered a bit on anything harder than poplar. I went through a whole thread here getting it setup and trying to get my technique right. I never did really figure out if the chatter was my technique or something in how I setup the plane...though I am pretty sure it was the plane chattering not the blade itself. Anyway, I eventually put it aside, as my Bailey planes just work so well. I may figure it out someday, but I got bored of half blindly trouble shooting it.

[Wilbur Pan]

Wilbur, yeah, one of these days I'll come crash your workshop...lord knows when, time is always hard to come by. If nothing else I'll bring my Kanna along as I never did get that thing working very well.

Any time. We'll get that thing going.