Festool Slope

[Paul A. Clark]

Well, thought I would not ever own any of the Green German candy. So much for that thought. I recently left the restaurant business after 30 yrs to go into the remodel business. Thought now would be a good time to upgrade the tool selection. After using them for a couple of day, I am figuring out ways to add to the arsenal. This slope is VERY slippery.

[Joe Adams]

I recently left the restaurant business after 30 yrs to go into the remodel business.

Talk about "out of the pan and into the fire".

Festool's precision and dust collection are addictive though.

[Charlie MacGregor]

Problems occur when you stack your systainers like that. Now when you go back in the shop in about ten days, you'll find they have reproduced!

[Jim Becker]

Yea, the initial investment isn't chump-change, but the quality will last a very long time and the "system" is really ideal for the type of work you are going into. While I enjoy many of my Festool products "in the shop", all of them positively SHINE when I'm doing work "in the house". Congrats!

[Rick Markham]

Join the club, after seeing my friends TS 55, it was all downhill from there, I ran out and bought one and a giant rail to go with it (This was several years ago.) Recently building a new shop, in my new home gave me a chance to slide farther down the hill... before you know it you will have a Domino, All the cutters/domino assortment, a giant box of each and every domino they make, A CT36, reusable bag (ouch on the price of that.) A Kapex, the handy cart or a MFT3/Kapex for it, A RO 150 FEQ, additional rails, knobs, clamps accesories for all of them... Whew... and I still need a couple of MFT's to use for assembly tables. Mine are all going to be primarily used in my shop, however, it is nice to be able to throw a nearly complete cabinet making shop in your truck and go where you need to ;) doesn't get much cooler than that! Good choice, wise decision, and Kudo's to you... Drinking the black and green Koolaid is an enlightening experience.

[Paul A. Clark]

I think the more you add the steeper the slope gets. 1st go around Ct36 and TS55. "That will be enough to break down sheet good." The next day ETS150/3, Domino w/ ALL the bits and systainer and extra rail. I have NEVER watch SOOOO much $$$ vanish from the bank acct. What the heck they are fantastic tools that pay for themselves very quickly. At least that is what I am telling myself. But next trip will be some clamps, rail case, router and maybe the jigsaw.

[Frank Trinkle]

But next trip will be some clamps, rail case, router and maybe the jigsaw.

From what I can deduce from FestoolUSA's site, we don't have the same selection of jigsaws here in the states that the Europeans have from Festool there. I particularly want the Carvex PSC420 which I can't find being sold in the U.S. Grrrr! I spend some of my time in Germany (SO is an Air Force Officer assigned there right now), and I may buy the battery version if it's the same battery that can be charged on a U.S. Festool charger.

[Rick Markham]

Paul, I haven't even dabbled in the router category yet... Those are on my short list of Festool things... and a RO 90... The router tables look pretty sweet, too bad I like my current one so much. I really want the trim router... I think it might be pretty sweet for some inlay/marquetry work.

[Mike Cutler]

My first one was an OF 2200 router. I still am amazed that a router that big is so well balanced. It just glides over material. I've since added a TS 75, but have yet to really "put the wood to it". Soon though.;) My lower back just can't take manhandling heavy material around as well as it once could.Hopefully moving the saw to the wood helps me a bit.

They cost big $$$$, but if you have the need they are very nice tools.

[John Piwaron]

Slippery indeed. I started with the CT22 E dust extractor. Awesome vac! It made sanding with my PC sanders a little more enjoyable - no dust escapes! At all!

Next was a Domino. The small one, there was no big Domino then. And the box of domino's to go with it.

Then recently I got the OF 2200 router - wow. Smooth and powerful. But I'm still learning to use it, the real feel for all it can do will come later.

A couple of days ago one of their sanders arrived. An ETS 150/3 I looked at the Rotex units but they seemed like they'd be too much for my work. After seeing them at a Woodcraft yesterday, I know I made the right choice. They're great, but not right for me. Maybe an RO 90 will come home with me someday, but not now. I'm still not sure about what paper to use with it. There are so many good choices. At this time I'm leaning towards using Mirka Abranet & Abralon.

Festool does have lots of good choices, tools that work well. And for me, since I acquired some of my things like a plunge router and my ROS's, the Festool choices have many real improvements over the machines I bought 20 years ago.

[Michael Dunn]

I started with the OF1400 four years ago and haven't looked back. I just ordered the parallel guide and extension set. $325. Not bad considering the price if you buy them separate. I have to make 9 table tops for a restaurant/bar 5 are identical, then two different ones that are identical to each other, and one large one for a booth. With my TS75, guide rails, and parallel guide I can setup to cut maybe even all 5 identical tops at the same time. Sweet!!!

I have another project I'm about to submit a proposal on. A large drafting table. 15'3" x 53". If my preferred method of construction is approved I'll be needin the Domino. Yeah buddy!!! I loves me some Festool.

I even order a Festool hat. Not bad for $111.50. My saw it and said, "niiice. Was it free?"

I laughed and said, "nothing that bears the Festool name is free."

It makes me more money by making me more efficient.

Festool rules!!'

[Leo Graywacz]

Oh...the green koolaid. You drank it? Too bad for you.

You'll have great tools, and no bank account :rolleyes:

[Julie Moriarty]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/FesKoolAid_zps10ae6bbb.png

It happens to the best of us.

[Alan Lightstone]

So true, so true, sigh.....

[Rick Fisher]

Life is short .. People should experience the finest when its a passion..

[Rick Markham]

I will tell you my favorite out of all the Festool stuff I own has to be the Kapex . It gets used ALL the time now, and was dead on accurate out of the box. It does everything it advertises. I will be purchasing the extension wings for mine. First I need to buy a couple of MFT 3's for a "knock down" assembly area in my shop.

I will say that the Rotex 150 is a beast, it makes wonderful work of finishing large flat surfaces with little effort on the part of the operator. It becomes a bit more cumbersome on thinner stock for my liking however. For that reason there is a Ceros in my future, but it's not a high priority yet.

[John Piwaron]

Life is short .. People should experience the finest when its a passion..

Agree - and there should be a "like" button for message like Rick's.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've become a huge believer in buy once, cry once. Two many crappy tools thrown out and replaced over the years. Never thought of replacing any of my Festool stuff.

I missed getting the Carvex. Don't know why they suddenly didn't send them to this country. Needed a jig saw and bought the Bosch instead. Carvex looks much nicer, but 1 year later, it still doesn't exist for us here.

I wish I had more space to put all the systainers together on one wall for neatness, but way too space challenged for that.

They just work. Customer Service has been fantastic, and the ergonomics and design have been great.

The only one I haven't been crazy about is the Rotex 150. Funny. Two much of a beast for me. And the Kapex needs a better method to clamp small pieces of wood, especially during miter cuts. Great if the wood is long enough for their normal clamps that are really easy to use.

I love the 150/3, though. Use that constantly. And I've been waiting for my Bosch 36V Hammer Drill to die to buy a replacement Festool. That Bosch may live forever though. Weighs a bloody ton with that 36V battery, but can drill through anything. The second it goes, though... more Kool-Aid.

[Julie Moriarty]

I have the CT26, RO125, ETS125 and RO90. None of the last three would be as awesome as they are without the CT vac. If you don't like dust, you'll love the dust collection on Festools. And once you experience the virtual dust-free environment, you'll want the same from all your tools. And it's slip sliding away...:rolleyes:

Just an FYI - there have been several threads on the Festool Owners Group (FOG) forum about inserting the Dust Deputy between your Festool and Fesvac. There's a general belief doing so can short circuit the PC board in the vac and it costs $150 to replace. Festool says you void your warranty by using third party accessories with Festool products.

The consensus is static charge buildup is the culprit in destroying the PC board. Oneida is offering a static dissipating upgrade for the Ultimate DD but that doesn't change Festool's position on voiding the warranty.

[Paul A. Clark]

Yea, tried the ct36 with the 150/3 for the first time on Friday. At first I thought the sander was not working,, no dust in the air no dust on the surface, no dust on me, no dust anywhere. That might be worth the price of admission just for that feature. I also like the systainer system in that you can keep most accessories with the tool instead of " where did I put that....."

[Rick Fisher]

I have lots of Festool product but have never owned one of their vacuums .. I have a Makita with Auto On-OFF which is basically made by Nilfisk .. and a Fein Turbo II .. I do agree that the dust collection is amazing and one of the big attractions to Festool ..

[Chris Padilla]

Yea, tried the ct36 with the 150/3 for the first time on Friday. At first I thought the sander was not working,, no dust in the air no dust on the surface, no dust on me, no dust anywhere.

Love it! That was my first experience many years ago when I started sanding with my F sanders. The only proof the sander was working was the darn wood was getting smoother and smoother. I actually LIKE sanding now. Go figure.

[Jeff Monson]

I actually LIKE sanding now. Go figure.

That's a pretty bold statement Chris! I tolerate sanding much better than I did before Festool.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think we forgot to mention there's psychedelics in the Green Kool Aid. I thought I loved Fes-sanding too, then I came down off the high.

[Erik Christensen]

re the comment that a mini-cyclone will fry the circuit board in a CT vac - I can't speak about the dust deputy as I have a clearvue mini (the guys who actually invented vac sized cyclones) on my CT for about 4 years now - run the snot out of it with zero issues unless you count overfilling the cyclone container and actually using the CT dust bag - that said a single user data point is not statistically significant

[Julie Moriarty]

that said a single user data point is not statistically significant

Go over to FOG and tell them that. :rolleyes: I'm learning it's best to zip your lip over there if you aren't googoo-gaga over Festool.

[Jim Neeley]

Julie,

What is the logical argument for the frying? They sell the Oneida with a grounded cable and the cyclone provides more resistance than an open hose but less than a sander. Is the claim based on static?


Otherwise I could see it if the vacuum also fried with no hose attached whatsover (like running a large DC with no load and over-currenting the motor) but I'd be surprised to learn that was the case.

Seems strange...

Jim

[Kelly Colin Mark]

Just an FYI - there have been several threads on the Festool Owners Group (FOG) forum about inserting the Dust Deputy between your Festool and Fesvac. There's a general belief doing so can short circuit the PC board in the vac and it costs $150 to replace. Festool says you void your warranty by using third party accessories with Festool products.

The consensus is static charge buildup is the culprit in destroying the PC board. Oneida is offering a static dissipating upgrade for the Ultimate DD but that doesn't change Festool's position on voiding the warranty.

Although I haven't seen the thread and I know you're not necessarily championing it, I'm skeptical about that theory. After all, Festool does sell non anti-static hoses that don't void their warranty, so how would connecting some other, also non-anti-static hose to the vac present more or less of a risk of discharge ?

I bought one of the very first UDDs and even then, as you point out, it came with a little kit to effectively eliminate the risk of static discharge. It wasn't an upgrade, as I remember.

If it happened to me, I'd just fail to mention the use of the UDD.

[Julie Moriarty]

Jim and Kelly,

Over at FOG, I challenged the assumption that a 3rd party cyclone unit inserted between a Festool vac and tool was, IN FACT, the cause of circuit board failure. I did my best trying to get the Festool representative or some other Festool official to definitively say, one way or the other, if Festool has determined that the 3rd party cyclone can be pinpointed as THE cause for circuit board failure. All that was ever said definitively was in reference to Festool policy, which was verbatim to how the warranty read. But there was allegations by the Festool rep that the DD is the cause and some FOG members stood firmly by those allegations and restated them as fact. Many others decided it wasn't worth the risk so they would not be purchasing the DD.

The facts presented in the conversation (I'm doing this by memory so don't hold my feet to the fire on this)

1. At least one person said his vac circuit board failed and he had never used any 3rd party accessories.
2. Those who experienced circuit board failure AND were using a DD suspected the DD caused the failure. I didn't take notes to see if this was true for all who participated in the conversation but it seemed most believed this, though there were not a lot who experienced circuit board failure in the first place.
3. There was no testing cited to prove one way on the other if the static buildup created by the insertion of the DD between the Festool and vac was in fact the cause of circuit board failure.
4. There was no official statement from Festool that said if you use a DD or similar accessory that your circuit board will fail, only that doing so may void your warranty.
5. Some said they noticed static shock coming from the tool ONLY AFTER inserting the DD between the tool and vac.
6. Replacing the circuit board costs $150 and replacing a bag runs from $7-$10.

Several times I tried to get an answer as to why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses, and backs them up with their warranty, if static buildup can cause problems with Festool circuit boards. There was no real answer from Festool employees or officials but one member who is an electrical engineer did offer some explanations, though they didn't seem to directly apply to my questions. I'm an electrician, he's an electrical engineer. We often talk different languages.

There have been many owners of Festool vacs who have a 3rd party cyclone, inserted in between their Festool vac and tool, who have said they have had no problems. And at least one who said his vac's circuit board failed after having never used a 3rd party cyclone. Scientifically speaking, I think it's safe to say there is no definitive proof the static buildup created by a 3rd party cyclone is the cause of circuit board failure. It seems to me more a case of panic based on assumptions and allegations. Trying to get anything concrete out of Festool has been like trying to get a politician to answer a question directly.

Oneida piped into the conversation and offered a fix. Whether that was because they acknowledged that there may in fact be a problem or they were just responding to the panic, I don't know. I suspect the latter though.

As far as I know, Festool has not issued any warnings regarding this issue. Oneida, being the only 3rd party cyclone manufacturer that makes a model specifically designed for the Festool vac (that I know of), has only offered the static dissipating upgrade but has not said they acknowledge the problem as being theirs. I suspect they are addressing the static shock issue while hoping to prevent a mass exodus.

And that's pretty much all I have absorbed from the discussions. It seems, right now, we're each left to decide on our own.

[Rick Christopherson]

Several times I tried to get an answer as to why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses, and backs them up with their warranty, if static buildup can cause problems with Festool circuit boards.As that unnamed Electrical Engineer you mentioned, I specifically told you that it is not related to non-antistatic hoses because they isolate the whole system. The problem comes about when you use antistatic hoses, but with a non-conductive static generator in the middle (aka the DD).

(In summary of what I said previously...) If you have non-antistatic hoses, a static discharge inside the DD is not going to propagate to the vac. However, with an antistatic hose, that discharge in the DD will propagate to the vac and result in a sudden voltage spike.

It is also not about nuisance shocks for the user. Other people interjected that concept into the discussion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. The topic is about the vac controller, which is at the other end of the system from the user. Nuisance shocks to the user will occur whenever there is a non-conductive component anywhere in any vacuum system, regardless whether it is the DD or non-antistatic hoses.


As far as I know, Festool has not issued any warnings regarding this issue. Oneida, being the only 3rd party cyclone manufacturer that makes a model specifically designed for the Festool vac (that I know of), has only offered the static dissipating upgrade but has not said they acknowledge the problem as being theirs. I suspect they are addressing the static shock issue while hoping to prevent a mass exodus. Festool couldn't issue such a warning, because doing so would open them up to a lawsuit by Oneida.

There is more information about this that I am not at liberty to say, but the number of vac's using DD's getting warranty claims was getting pretty high. The occurrence rate was so high that I suspect that it was the sole reason why the wording of the warranty just got changed this year to include the aftermarket product wording. (Yes, as an aftermarket manufacturer myself, this wording does potentially affect me too.)

[Joe Adams]

Rick,

Just for clarification, is the issue with the antistatic hose created by using it to connect the dust deputy outlet to the Festool dust extractor inlet?

I don't understand why it would matter what type of hose is connected from the tool to the dust deputy inlet.

The Oneida website says it comes with 6 feet of static dissipating hose with static dissipating cuffs.

Is this what is transferring the static charge from the cyclone to the dust extractor?

[Rick Christopherson]

I don't understand why it would matter what type of hose is connected from the tool to the dust deputy inlet.If it was non-conductive hose, all of the charge would just stay where is was. It would be spread out all the way from the tool to the vac, and it would keep building until it dissipated to the environment.

If it is conductive hose, all of the charge is going to try to move toward the lower voltage, which is toward the vac. But the problem is that the Dust Deputy is non-conductive, so all of the charge is going to pile up there and not be able to get through. So all of the charge that is constantly building up inside the dust deputy and upstream from it, is stuck there, but constantly building. It builds until there is enough to discharge, or jump the gap. Because the downstream hose is conductive, that huge pile up of charge that suddenly discharges goes straight into the vac.

[Jim Neeley]

Rick,

I do not currently own any Festool products although am/have considered them, including the DD. I too am an electrical engineer. This discussion is also new to me so I'm not up on prior discussions.

If we take the (to me) assertion that the DD is non-conductive (which wouldn't be too surprising to me), it would seem a simple solution would be to run a bare copper wire between the inlets and outlet hoses affixing them with a wire-wrapped screw, making a wrap around the DD and around a screw that penetrates the inner wall of the DD slightly.

Would this not provide an effective static drain? It works using PVC DC piping. For the cost of bare wire and screw(s), it'd surely be inexpensive. There's likely be a better way of handling the hose ends so as to facilitate disconnect and reconnect; I'm offering a brute force method here.

Jim

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

That works only in the vicinity of the copper wire. To be more effective, you'd have to wrap it all over, inside and out, to the point of reaching "why don't I just make the thing out of metal?" mentality. :)

Remember, plastic is non-conductive...current does not flow very well in it. However, ESD can build up ANYWHERE on (inside/outside) the plastic and if your wire is not near it, then it will continue to build.

[Rick Christopherson]

Jim, that would reduce the likelihood of static buildup from the upstream hose, as long as you had a good connection to the hoses. While the copper tape is very conductive, the antistatic hoses are high resistance conductors. So in order to make a good connection to them, it will be dependent on the surface area in contact with them. (i.e. the resistance of the connection would be the "resistivity" times surface area.)

So as long as it was a flat-wide copper tape, it should probably give sufficient surface area to be effective. However, if it was just a piece of wire touching the hose, then it probably will not have sufficient surface area of contact to be effect (even though the wire is a very good conductor by itself.)

However, as Chris pointed out, this solution does not mitigate the static buildup within the Dust Deputy itself. Even if the cyclone itself was antistatic (as I believe Oneida claims), there is still a non-conductive bucket or other container below the cyclone. This container will do the same thing as pointed out in my previous posting. It will build a charge until that charge becomes large enough to dissipate into the conductive components, and again, the result will be a sudden spike of charge into the system.

Chris, There are conductive plastics for this very reason. They are more expensive to produce, but they do exist. I do not know whether Oneida is truly using conductive plastic within the cyclone or not. At first glance, it does not appear to be a conductive type plastic, but I am not an expert on types of plastic. (After a quick search, I see that there are some transparent and translucent plastics that are semi-conductive, so maybe they are using one for the UDD model, if that is what they claim.)

[Joe Adams]

From Oneida's website -

Kit Includes:
- Industrial Static Dissipative, 9 Gallon (34L) container
- Dust Bagger, plastic bag hold-down system. No messy dumping - allows easy removal of dust in plastic bags.
- Static dissipating cyclone separator
- 6 feet of static dissipating hose with static dissipating cuffs

[Julie Moriarty]

Today I fell right off the slippery slope and back into sanity. Yesterday I received a RO 150/3 sander. For those who don't know, the 150/3 is their fine to ultra-fine 6" random orbit sander and the 150/5 is their medium to fine random orbit sander. When I opened the box I found the sander, cord, dust bag holder, (1) paper bag and ONE (1) SHEET OF SANDPAPER! This is a $325.00 sander. Yeah, the Mercedes was delivered to the new owner with just enough gas to get to the nearest gas station. How cheap can you get? The last sander I got had two (2) sheets. Whoopee! Oh, and the one sheet they sent for their fine/ultra-fine sander? 80 grit. DOH!

Then a friend sends me this link (http://www.bundeskartellamt.de/wEnglisch/News/Archiv/ArchivNews2012/2012_08_20.php) from last August. Maybe they are trying to pay the fine by only including 1 sheet of sandpaper with their expensive sanders. ;) Anyway, I'm now cured of Festool fever. With all the money I'll save maybe I'll take a vacation.

[Jonathan Leong]

I just took delivery of an ets-125 and it also only came with a single 80 grit granat! I figured it would come with 220 grit lol...

[Julie Moriarty]

When I got mine a few months ago it came with a nice sampler pack of abrasives. Same with the RO 125. Guess Festool discovered since then you only need one sheet of 80 grit Granat to get the most out of your new sander. :rolleyes:

[Michael Dunn]

I just took delivery of an ets-125 and it also only came with a single 80 grit granat! I figured it would come with 220 grit lol...

Are you serious? Mine came with several sheets of several different grits. This was two years ago.

[Mitchell Garnett]

I particularly want the Carvex PSC420 which I can't find being sold in the U.S.

The Carvex family will finally arrive in the Fall of this year according to the Festool USA site: http://www.festooljigsaws.com/jigsaws/models/carvex/

Mitch

[David Weaver]

Are you serious? Mine came with several sheets of several different grits. This was two years ago.

Definitely. I also have the single 80 grit disc from an ets 125 (about two or three months ago). I haven't used it.

[John Piwaron]

Today I fell right off the slippery slope and back into sanity. Yesterday I received a RO 150/3 sander. For those who don't know, the 150/3 is their fine to ultra-fine 6" random orbit sander and the 150/5 is their medium to fine random orbit sander. When I opened the box I found the sander, cord, dust bag holder, (1) paper bag and ONE (1) SHEET OF SANDPAPER! This is a $325.00 sander. Yeah, the Mercedes was delivered to the new owner with just enough gas to get to the nearest gas station. How cheap can you get? The last sander I got had two (2) sheets. Whoopee! Oh, and the one sheet they sent for their fine/ultra-fine sander? 80 grit. DOH!

Then a friend sends me this link (http://www.bundeskartellamt.de/wEnglisch/News/Archiv/ArchivNews2012/2012_08_20.php) from last August. Maybe they are trying to pay the fine by only including 1 sheet of sandpaper with their expensive sanders. ;) Anyway, I'm now cured of Festool fever. With all the money I'll save maybe I'll take a vacation.

Me too. A coarse grit for a finish sander. Nice. :) They saved a bit more money on mine by not applying a label to it with the company name or model number. I'm sure that's a mistake. A Mercedes with no hood ornament, to extend your analogy a bit.

I'm not particularly unhappy about the 1 piece of sandpaper, after all, I bought a sander, not a box of sandpaper. But if they were going to include anything why not make it appropriate to the machines intended use?

[Andrew Joiner]

Today I fell right off the slippery slope and back into sanity. Whoopee! Oh, and the one sheet they sent for their fine/ultra-fine sander? 80 grit. DOH!



A slope is a lot less slippery if it ends with 80 grit. Just as you accelerate you come to an abrasive stop.

[Charlie MacGregor]

A slope is a lot less slippery if it ends with 80 grit. Just as you accelerate you come to an abrasive stop.

Now that right there is funny!

[Rob Damon]

I have had a DD connected to a CT22 for several years and have never had a issue with burning out a PC board on the CT22. Yep, you get static build up because my shop is normally around 35-40% RH year round, so even regular shop vacs build up static. Even using just the CT22 with the AS hose attached directly to the CT22 and the metal clean tools, it get shocked (i.e. all festool products.) I always unplug the CT22 when not being used, so maybe the circuit board is being fried by dirty AC power, spikes/surges.

I have all of the their routers, 5 sanders, planer, domino, both TS, Kapex, jigsaw and it seems the only ones that don't seem to build static are the Kapex and the domino even without the DD in the loop and of course the two drills CSX, T-18 which are static free ;) .....duh that an easy one to figure out....
Rob