Pine siding?

[Todd Burch]

I was talking with a custom builder the other day. He was telling me that pine that is grown today rots in about 6 years when used for exterior siding. I'm not so sure I believe him.

He said that they (his company) does repairs on a lot of older homes in this area, and that older houses he is doing "spot" repairs on (I'm talking ~70+ year old houses with the original pine siding ), he said the new pine only lasts about 6 years, even when caulked well at the ends and painted well.

What say you? Have you observed, or heard, that the pine grown today has that short of a service life? I can't imagine. (I'm talking southern yellow pine, not ponderosa pine)

Todd

[Mel Fulks]

I don't doubt that it can show some rot after six years. But that would be sappy pieces and the ones installed heart side out instead of bark side out. Painting the end grain cuts and cutting the pieces short enough to leave some room for the caulk helps. When painted vertical surfaces rot quickly I have to wonder about the installation as well as the material.

[Brian Libby]

Really! If well painted it should be protected from the weather and therefore protected from rot. Was he "pushing" some other type of siding?

[Lee Schierer]

I have some bird houses that are made of pine that have been out in the weather unfinished for far longer than 6 years closer to 15....However, if you look at the density of the growth rings in the pine siding on those 60 year old house and compare it to pine you can buy now and the spacing of the rings will be dramatically different. The new pine will have far more soft wood, which rots easier than the old growth wood.

[Todd Burch]

He was pushing fiber cement board, but I'm not a big fan of it. Not much character, way too "breezy", and every one always says "it was installed wrong" when I point out issues with it.

So, I guess, I've never seen it installed correctly! (which makes me think most available labor pools can't install it correctly...)

[Mel Fulks]

I agree ,Todd. Seems like the guys who like it and install it are at odds with the way the manufacturer says to do it.

[Peter Kelly]

Clearly said builder hasn't learned about painting board ends and priming on all sides. Even new growth wood siding will last a very long time if painted carefully.

[Jason Roehl]

Clearly said builder hasn't learned about painting board ends and priming on all sides. Even new growth wood siding will last a very long time if painted carefully.

I suspect this has a LOT to do with it. I've seen many siding and trim installations where the builder/siding contractor can't be bothered to call a painter to at least ask his opinion first. Nor can they be bothered to back-prime first, nor even prime end cuts as they install it. Never mind actually using an appropriate primer...

[David Kumm]

My brother built a house with pine ship lap siding and replaced it in about 10 years. I can't verify preparation but assume it was less than ideal. the siding warped, split, and weeped sap and generally awful after a few years. Again, may have been prep but my good quality cedar still looks like day one after 15 years. Dave

[Todd Burch]

An interesting side note. I sent an email to Hardie that said this:

Subject: Proper Installation Example?
Can you point me to a builder or a reference home in zip code 77426 where your fiber cement siding has been installed correctly?

Just over two hours later, I got a phone call from the local rep. It was an interesting call.

I explained what I wrote in post 5 above, and that I had just read the install instructions. He replied that most of the info in their install instructions was "building code" and not particular to their product. He acknowledged that a lot of builders and crews do not follow the instructions.

I asked if they (themselves) were available to contract out to apply their product (no they aren't), but he said he could (on a limited basis) send an install rep out to my project to give the installers a 1 hour refresher course.

He also said he would be emailing me some additional doc on their products (design guide and some other stuff).

(And, no, he could not point me to a builder or reference home...)

[Todd Burch]

My brother built a house with pine ship lap siding and replaced it in about 10 years. I can't verify preparation but assume it was less than ideal. the siding warped, split, and weeped sap and generally awful after a few years. Again, may have been prep but my good quality cedar still looks like day one after 15 years. Dave

Sounds like an inferior batch of wood.

Assuming pine is heated in a kiln to be dried, the sap is then "set". The sap won't run again unless it gets hotter than when it was set. So, if the temp outside is 90 degrees, and the sap runs, either it didn't get hot enough in the kiln, or wasn't kiln dried.

[David Kumm]

Sounds like an inferior batch of wood.

Assuming pine is heated in a kiln to be dried, the sap is then "set". The sap won't run again unless it gets hotter than when it was set. So, if the temp outside is 90 degrees, and the sap runs, either it didn't get hot enough in the kiln, or wasn't kiln dried.


Could be. As to sap running, I've seen so much of that it must be a fairly common problem. I even have some reclaimed 100 years old douglas fir that still weeps after being planed. Probably never kilned but I buildt a room of Faux timber framing with DF 2x10s that were kilned from the 18% first run down to under 10% and it still weeped a little. Dave

[Richard Shaefer]

An interesting side note. I sent an email to Hardie that said this:

Subject: Proper Installation Example?
Can you point me to a builder or a reference home in zip code 77426 where your fiber cement siding has been installed correctly?

Just over two hours later, I got a phone call from the local rep. It was an interesting call.

I explained what I wrote in post 5 above, and that I had just read the install instructions. He replied that most of the info in their install instructions was "building code" and not particular to their product. He acknowledged that a lot of builders and crews do not follow the instructions.

I asked if they (themselves) were available to contract out to apply their product (no they aren't), but he said he could (on a limited basis) send an install rep out to my project to give the installers a 1 hour refresher course.

He also said he would be emailing me some additional doc on their products (design guide and some other stuff).

(And, no, he could not point me to a builder or reference home...)

first off, I completely agree that 'new' pine, the fast-growth stuff commonly available today will rot in about 10 years. maybe less. old growth pine, the stuff I have pulled out of barns and reused for furniture, isn't even the same stuff in my book. weight and density wise, it's more like poplar, but with really tight growth rings.

Second off, I have had fiber cement siding on my house for better than a decade and I love it. Would never use anything else ever again to side a house. It doesn't burn, it doesn't rot, the good stuff looks dead realistic, and it doesn't tear off in a storm. I'm a bridge engineer by trade and was one of the first responders after Sandy hit south Jersey. The devestation was unreal, but the 'spensive houses right on the coast with fiber cement siding largely laughed it off. There were a few loose and missing boards here and there, but the vinyl and wood houses were stripped to the sheathing. Certainly made me feel better about my choice.

[Tom Scott]

As others have said, pine is not the same any more. In fact, the engineering values for SYP were reduced within the past year to reflect the lower design values. That said, I still find it hard to believe that pine siding, if primed all sides and caulked and maintained, would rot in 6 years unless it is not installed properly and has constant moisture behind it.
I will also say, though, that I would go with cement siding on my house (again). I have it only on the back porch area of my house, but it has been 12 years and still looks great...and hasn't needed to be repainted. I cannot say that about the real wood.

[Todd Burch]

I got an email from the Hardie guy. It included a link to this:

www.artisanluxury.com

This thicker stuff sure looks better than the standard 5/16" stuff. I might have to put this in the running for my siding.

Todd

[Mel Fulks]

Concerning the engineering specs,those decisions are not just made by engineers. There are always others at the table including contractors and sales reps for competing products. I just googled it to be sure. In the decades I have worked I haven't seen any change in it and I believe some of the mentioned comparisons may be to long leaf pine which is sometimes found in houses of the 20th century.Some civil war period church paneling and such looks much like yellow pine available now.I think the biggest change is just in how it's used.Like slab cut locally produced YP siding listed in catalogues as "beaded on one side ,and can be be turned either way". There is one useable side ,the bark side.

[Chris Padilla]

Stucco...or is that just here on the west coast? It is spendy to put up but it sure lasts. Lots of new apartment buildings going up near my work and they are all stucco. However, I guess stucco is pretty closely related to cement siding.

[Todd Burch]

Stucco doesn't do so well, long term, in a humid, wet climate.

[Curt Harms]

Stucco...or is that just here on the west coast? It is spendy to put up but it sure lasts. Lots of new apartment buildings going up near my work and they are all stucco. However, I guess stucco is pretty closely related to cement siding.

I'd guess stucco is pretty fire resistant though I don't know if that's an issue in the bay area.

[Peter Kelly]

Stucco doesn't do so well, long term, in a humid, wet climate.Seems to have worked well as an exterior finish on homes in Britain. No shortage of wet weather there...

[Jim O'Dell]

I did my shop with the Hardi board planking 7 years ago. It takes paint very well, and is holding up just fine. I installed it myself. I tried to follow the installation instructions pretty close, except that I caulked where the next board touched the one it was installing against, and I used screws counter sunk slightly right above that joint as well as at the top of each new board per the instructions. It's amazing how you can hide the "holes" with some caulk and a putty knife!!!! Paint over and they are gone. The real wood trim at the entry door....not so much. Rotted out at one lower corner the second year. Need to take it out and replace it with the plastic stuff. Jim.

[Art Mann]

Stucco doesn't do so well, long term, in a humid, wet climate.

Several years ago, we had friends in Miami, whom we visited often. That is a very humid place. There were vast neighborhoods of houses constructed of concrete block and stucco. It was rare to see any other type of exterior construction. Many of these houses had to be 30 or 50 years old. They appeared to have held up pretty well to me.

[Jim Andrew]

I installed prefinished hardie board siding on my daughters house about 6 years ago. Problem is cutting the stuff. Borrowed a shear and it worked well, but sawing it with an abrasive blade is a real pain, the dust is horrible. I top nailed it, so the only nails that show are the top piece below a window, and the top row against the soffit. The lumberyard recommended roofing nails, which worked very well, think we used 2". I cut pieces of felt to put behind the joints, just stapled them on so they go between the courses, to make any water run to the outside that leaks between the joints, also put caulk on the end of the joints before putting up the next piece. Also put caulk on the corners and windows before installing. Then caulked again afterwards. That way you have caulk between the corner or window and the siding. Nobody has complained about the siding I installed. And still looks like it did when I finished.

[Todd Burch]

Several years ago, we had friends in Miami, whom we visited often. That is a very humid place. There were vast neighborhoods of houses constructed of concrete block and stucco. It was rare to see any other type of exterior construction. Many of these houses had to be 30 or 50 years old. They appeared to have held up pretty well to me.

Ah, stucco over concrete block is not what the issues have been with here. Stucco over stick framing here is the issue.

[Ben Hatcher]

I miss my stucco over stick frame house. It was so quiet inside. Do any of you have comparisons between the sound deadening of stucco versus fiber board? The vinyl I have now drives me nuts when it rains hard. It is like being in a tent.

[Alan Bienlein]

Forget the pine. Why not go with acoya?http://www.accoya.com/

[Thom Porterfield]

Todd,

I sided my house and shop with Hardie plank siding, and Hardie board panels (to simulate stucco). The shop was built in 2000 and the house in 2003. To date, I have had absolutely no failures of the exterior envelope of my buildings that can be attributed to Hardie cement fiberboard products.

My previous buildings (on the same site) had beveled pine siding. Unfortunately, they were installed with the planed (smooth) side out, rough sawn side in. There was no way paint would stay put on the south facing walls. I repainted that stuff so often I could write a treatise on which paints do not stick on planed pine siding. It'd be a short treatise; one word: "none." I believe that had the siding been installed rough face out, paint would have lasted longer than a year, but how much longer is hard to say.

In the 10 years since installing Hardie siding products, I have had NO paint failures anywhere. Okay, so the red cedar trim needs repainting now. I can live with that.

I can't say enough good things about cement fiber siding. In your climate, warm and humid most of the time, installing the stuff over stick frame, I would provide a ventilation path behind it in front of the building wrap. This means furring strips, but worth the effort for a nearly maintenance free product.

[Jason Roehl]

What Thom said ^^^--with one addition. Furring strips are an excellent additional step for ANY paint- or stain-grade siding in a warm and humid climate (including the MidWest).

[Jamie Buxton]

Forget the pine. Why not go with acoya?http://www.accoya.com/

Can you actually buy the stuff? How much does it cost?

[Alan Bienlein]

Can you actually buy the stuff? How much does it cost?
I have no problem getting it and there are numerous houses and commercial buildings using it here in Houston.