Wearing out waterstones...

[Harold Burrell]

OK...please forgive the "anality" of this question, but I've gotta ask...

How long does it take to wear out waterstones? Namely, something like the Sigma Power ceramics? I absolutely love mine (well...not "love" in the strictest definition of the word. I mean, right now we're just dating...but, I digress...)

I just want to know how long I can expect my investment to last. You know...under "normal" usage (whatever "normal" is...).

[Chris Griggs]

Unless you are doing A LOT of sharpening they should last you years! I wonder what Stu will say. My guess, based on the wear that mine have after about 2 years would be 5-10 years for the weekend warrior. Longer perhaps for the finer stones. That's kinda a shot in the dark though, so please take it with a grain of salt.

[David Weaver]

A decade or two. If you want to be frugal with them, try to use the whole surface as much as possible and flatten sparingly.

[Derek Cohen]

If you avoid using them at all, they will last even longer. :)

To focus on stones wearing is to miss the point of having them. Really, I think that one should look at these items as consumables. They may last a decade in "normal" use (whatever "normal" is). On the other hand, you may decide to replace them in a few years for something better even though they have lots of life left. Who can tell? Just use them so that you are getting satisfaction from your tools because their blades are sharp.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

As an added bonus you can tell your wife that since they are "consumable" its a good idea for you have multiples. Great excuse to buy more stones!

[Chris Griggs]

OK...please forgive the "anality" of this question, but I've gotta ask...
I absolutely love mine (well...not "love" in the strictest definition of the word. I mean, right now we're just dating...but, I digress...)


Oh I bet you love them by one of the strictest definitions. There are at least 4 types of love in ancient Greek! (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_four_greek_words_for_love_and_their_m eanings)


Hmmmm, probably not Agape or Eros...maybe Philia/Philos if you have "affectionate regard" for your stones and consider them to be your friends.

[Kees Heiden]

My Bester 400 goes rather quick. I'm afraid it won't last more then a few years. The Sigma 1000 is also really wearing, but not nearly as fast. The Bester 4000 isn't used so often and the Naniwa Superstone 8000 is now about half way after 4 years. Apparently I flatten them often.

[David Weaver]

Sounds like it.

I think I've used about a millimeter off of my shapton 15k, which is the finish stone that I use probably 80% of the time. If I used the pro full time, over the last 6 years, I would probably have run about 3 millimeters off of it. maybe 2.

replace the sigma 1k with the 1.2 if you ever get it to the point where it's too thin. The 1.2 is a delight. So is the bester 1200, but the SP 1.2 is a bit finer.

Fastest shedding stone I have a pink brick 220 grit aluminum oxide coarse stone (look away stu). Its so soft you can use it dry with japanese tools, and the wrong iron backing pulls grit loose and keeps it fresh.

[Joey Naeger]

My sigma 1k has shed maybe 4 or 5mm, but it was getting heavy use daily for over a year. When I realized how much it had worn, I got myself the sigma 400, and am trying to force myself to grind more often. I also don't flatten as much as I used to.

[Erik Christensen]

Well this thread prompts me to ask - how often should you flatten? I was under the impression that it was before every use - at least that is what a number of the "experts" said in the books I have read and videos I have watched. So if I have 3 blades to sharpen I flatten 3 times - from this thread that sounds excessive. Not that I really care - I look at stones like sandpaper - a consumable. what I don't want is to not get the best edge I possibly can on a plane blade because i was trying to minimize stone wear.

[David Weaver]

It's an experience thing, you decide whatever pleases you. Some people flatten heavily and often. But with experience, you'll find that you don't need to flatten that often, especially on a finish stone. I see the stones as consumable, though, too. I do like to be sparing with them, but the harder synthetic stones definitely work a little better when the surface is fresh.

A lot of the advice you get in books, etc, is from people who teach mostly beginners. Their advice can't rely on your judgement, and as you go along (just as with everything else), you'll find that your discernment finds something a little more optimal for you.

With the cream shaptons at $75 or whatever they are now, there's no reason to be that sparing with them. Even heavy handedness with them would yield several decades of use.

That said, unless you're working the stones hard, you don't need to flatten them with every item you sharpen. I refresh the surface of the shaptons probably once for every dozen things, but even so, the refreshing is light, not massive abrading. It gives you an idea where you don't use much stone, too, usually at the ends, so you can figure out how to use a little more to make each refresh easier. I don't refresh now due to flatness, I refresh to get fresh abrasive.

[Jim Matthews]

If you put a rubber mat on the floor in front of your sharpening station, it should last your adult lifetime.

How much dish do you suspect you put in it on a vigorous session?
It can't be much more than the thickness of a plane shaving.

(There's a thousand thousandths in an inch, after all.)

[Stanley Covington]

A mechanic friend once suggested that the brakes and clutch on my truck would last much longer if I oiled them frequently. Perhaps the same principle would work for waterstones?

Stan

[Derek Cohen]

Flattening is more importance with the coarse stones since they change the shape of the blade. The finishing stones simply polish the result. The coarse stones also dish the most as they have a softer binder.

Abrading the surface of the stones is also important, however, to keep them clean, to remove inbedded swarf. This is one of the main reasons I swipe a diamond stone over my stones.

Flattening is also more important when you are working the back of a blade, for obvious reasons.

And more frequent flattening is likely to be done by those using honing guides - freehanding allows one to follows the curves of a worn stone without the same need to reproduce honing angles, which is the point of a rigid honng guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

A mechanic friend once suggested that the brakes and clutch on my truck would last much longer if I oiled them frequently.

Enough oil to make the clutch slip and the truck would last forever, it just wouldn't go anywhere. Oiling the brakes on the other hand might make the next trip the last trip.

As others have said, the courser stones wear the most the fastest. For my usage, any thing that needs working courser than 1000 grit is done with abrasive sheets on granite.

I am not a real stickler for flattening my stones every 20 strokes. This is usually not done until there is a demonstrable need shown in the effect on my blades.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

I wet my stones as soon as I enter the shop, then flatten them when I go over to them to hone for the 1st time during that session. Unless I'm doing a lot of work on (like working up a back) that is likely the only time I flatten them in a given session ( which will last anywhere from 1 hour to 6 hours). I guess if I'm really honing a lot during that work session I might flatten them one more time but quick rehonings (even several of them) aren't going to wear the stone THAT much, especially if you know how to work the whole stone and spread out the wear. As Dave said, after a while, experience tells you how long is too long to go w/o flattening..but again, once or twice a shop session if you're just doing routine honing of chisel and plane blades should be enough. I used to flatten a lot more... like ever couple of blades, and it probably is better to err on that side of things until you really get a good idea for yourself about how often you really NEED to flatten.

[Derek Cohen]

Another point: the modern ceramic waterstones are hard and retain flatness better than older style waterstones (such as the Kings I used a decade ago) with a clay binder. The Kings needed to be flattened frequently as they dished easily. Shaptons and Sigmas are in a different category - one reason to upgrade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I am in the category of people that errs on the side of over flattening. I by no means flatten excessively but I do tend to flatten more than I'd like. It's just my personality disorder kicking in that I can't stop. In reality I don't flatten nearly as much as is reccomended by your typical internet sensations that are aimed at teaching newbs. I do think that these modern ceramic waterstones are something that anyone using waterstones should upgrade to if you're in the market.

One issue I have with my 1000grit Shapton is what I glued the stone to. I made a wooden base for the stone and epoxied the two together. I regret this now that the stone is worn down a ways as it has developed cracks due to the severity of wood movement being that I use water. If I had it to do over again I would always opt for thick plate glass instead of a wood base. Shapton had something right with the glass stones (IMO) in that they were bonded to glass. The stone itself is not desirable though, if only they just mounted the Pro's to the glass they would have a winner.

[Jack Curtis]

...One issue I have with my 1000grit Shapton is what I glued the stone to. I made a wooden base for the stone and epoxied the two together. I regret this now that the stone is worn down a ways as it has developed cracks due to the severity of wood movement being that I use water. If I had it to do over again I would always opt for thick plate glass instead of a wood base. Shapton had something right with the glass stones (IMO) in that they were bonded to glass. The stone itself is not desirable though, if only they just mounted the Pro's to the glass they would have a winner.

I've made a few wooden bases for stones, but never had to apply epoxy. Instead, I excavated shallow cavities to hold the stones.

[Derek Cohen]

I am in the category of people that errs on the side of over flattening. I by no means flatten excessively but I do tend to flatten more than I'd like. It's just my personality disorder kicking in that I can't stop. In reality I don't flatten nearly as much as is reccomended by your typical internet sensations that are aimed at teaching newbs. I do think that these modern ceramic waterstones are something that anyone using waterstones should upgrade to if you're in the market.

One issue I have with my 1000grit Shapton is what I glued the stone to. I made a wooden base for the stone and epoxied the two together. I regret this now that the stone is worn down a ways as it has developed cracks due to the severity of wood movement being that I use water. If I had it to do over again I would always opt for thick plate glass instead of a wood base. Shapton had something right with the glass stones (IMO) in that they were bonded to glass. The stone itself is not desirable though, if only they just mounted the Pro's to the glass they would have a winner.

Hi Tony

The first Pro Shaptons I had were off eBay, a 5000 and an 8000. This was about 5 or 6 years ago. Both moved a few mm overnight, and so I decided to epoxy them to glass for stability. I subsequently did to all the Shaptons including a 1000 and a 12000 I later acquired. The glass was sized exactly for each stone. This permits them to fit into the case and to use the top of the case as a holder. Since then there has not been any movement, and the stones have not demonstrated any adverse effects. I would recommend this to all Shapton Pro users. It will also extend the life of the stones.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shapton1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rick Fisher]

I have the Sigma 13000, 1000 and 400 .. I agree with the OP.. Great stones.

I had planned to replace my Norton 4000 + 8000 with Sigma when they where finally worn out .. The problem is that the Norton, which I find muddy, will probably last another 10 years..

[Charlie Stanford]

I wet my stones as soon as I enter the shop, then flatten them when I go over to them to hone for the 1st time during that session. Unless I'm doing a lot of work on (like working up a back) that is likely the only time I flatten them in a given session ( which will last anywhere from 1 hour to 6 hours). I guess if I'm really honing a lot during that work session I might flatten them one more time but quick rehonings (even several of them) aren't going to wear the stone THAT much, especially if you know how to work the whole stone and spread out the wear. As Dave said, after a while, experience tells you how long is too long to go w/o flattening..but again, once or twice a shop session if you're just doing routine honing of chisel and plane blades should be enough. I used to flatten a lot more... like ever couple of blades, and it probably is better to err on that side of things until you really get a good idea for yourself about how often you really NEED to flatten.

Once or twice A SHOP SESSION?

Oh, gracious I'm going to show some restraint... for once......

[Tony Shea]

Hi Tony

The first Pro Shaptons I had were off eBay, a 5000 and an 8000. This was about 5 or 6 years ago. Both moved a few mm overnight, and so I decided to epoxy them to glass for stability. I subsequently did to all the Shaptons including a 1000 and a 12000 I later acquired. The glass was sized exactly for each stone. This permits them to fit into the case and to use the top of the case as a holder. Since then there has not been any movement, and the stones have not demonstrated any adverse effects. I would recommend this to all Shapton Pro users. It will also extend the life of the stones.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shapton1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

That is exactly the idea I was going for Derek.

Jack, the reason for epoxying the stone to the wooden base was to make the stone usable once it got too thin. I wanted to be able to use the stone right down to the last mm. The stone still works fine and the cracking shows no adverse effects on my blades, is just cosmetic. But once it really gets down to last bits of stone it may become a problem, IDK. Glass in general just seems like the way to go with stones, am not sure why waterstones would come mounted on a wooden base. Seems counter intuitive being that they are constantly getting wet and drying out after every use.

[David Weaver]

It's not a problem if you use wood that doesn't move. I had a board of QS kingwood that I had nothing to do with other than try to figure out if I should dump it for pen blanks, it was too small for anything else. (as in sell it to other people who turn pens). It makes a great base for stones, and no matter wet, dry, hot, cold it's fine. Same's been true with a walnut base I used, and cedar is traditional.

But if you just pick flatsawn something or other, that will definitely move. Extra mass and height definitely makes the stones nicer to use.

[Jack Curtis]

...Jack, the reason for epoxying the stone to the wooden base was to make the stone usable once it got too thin. I wanted to be able to use the stone right down to the last mm. The stone still works fine and the cracking shows no adverse effects on my blades, is just cosmetic. But once it really gets down to last bits of stone it may become a problem, IDK. Glass in general just seems like the way to go with stones, am not sure why waterstones would come mounted on a wooden base. Seems counter intuitive being that they are constantly getting wet and drying out after every use.

Understood. I only do the wood base with cavity alone for man made stones. Another reason to use epoxy (or one of the various window puttys) would be to level some of the really out of flat natural stones, which I've done from time to time; so it's scoop a trough, add putty/epoxy, throw in stone.

[Chris Griggs]

Dave, Jack, et al., I've been wondering lately how an end grain base might work to glue stones down too.....as in slicing up a board and gluing it together with the end grain turned up like a butcher block almost. I would imagine that this would create a pretty solid movement free base that a stone could be epoxied down to? My one worry would be that all that exposed end grain would allow a lot of water to pass through and do weird things to the base. I would think you could seal it pretty well though. Thoughts?

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure, I think I'd rather use a stable wood, because you know exactly what you'll get. You saw the base on the 5k shapton pro, I don't remember what that one is. It might be rift cocobolo or something, or macassar ebony or something like that, which I've only seen in quartered when it's lumber. that's ideal to me. I had a glasstone on a walnut base, though and no problems.

[Jack Curtis]

Dave, Jack, et al., I've been wondering lately how an end grain base might work to glue stones down too.....as in slicing up a board and gluing it together with the end grain turned up like a butcher block almost. I would imagine that this would create a pretty solid movement free base that a stone could be epoxied down to? My one worry would be that all that exposed end grain would allow a lot of water to pass through and do weird things to the base. I would think you could seal it pretty well though. Thoughts?

Never tried an end grain base, never occurred to me.

[david charlesworth]

My workshop waterstones have heavy use as I teach mainly beginners and amateurs.

I still like King stones, so when they get thin, I stick two together with polyurethane glue.

best wishes,
David

[Charlie Stanford]

My workshop waterstones have heavy use as I teach mainly beginners and amateurs.

I still like King stones, so when they get thin, I stick two together with polyurethane glue.

best wishes,
David

King? That's practically as unpardonable a sin as is using oilstones..... ;)

So 'last week,' you know?

[Derek Cohen]

That is very funny Charles. :) :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Well I so don't care.............................................. .. (They get the job done).

David

[David Wong]

I still like using King stones as well, particularly the #800 and #1200. The #800 is a reasonably quick stone for my needs. The Kings have a nice feel if you hand sharpen. They are not as fast as the newer stones, but sometimes slower is better. More chances to correct mistakes.