Help needed with dating Sandvik saws

[Kim Malmberg]

I had originally planned to post a gloat but decided I'd ask some serious questions instead.


I got myself another Sandvik saw (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/sets/72157633510336990/) the other day. It's one of those older ones with a dragon ornamented apple handle, a tapered and breasted saw plate. It's one of those saws that places a broad smile on the face of most people inclined my way.


But as I promised not to gloat I will get on with the questions.


I have been trying to document and date Sandvik saws for a year or so. I have some ideas about manufacturing periods but very little hard facts.


So, I am hoping that some of you might be able to shed some light on production periods and dates. I have uploaded a collection of some of Sandvik's various models. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/collections/72157631879869955/)


My latest Sandvik saw is what I believe to be one of their earlier production periods, made possibly no earlier than the 1940s. But that is a hunch more than a fact. I base my theory upon other saws I have seen, and mostly the etches and medallions on various Sandvik saws.


What I know for sure is that the production of hand saws begun in 1886. I don't think I have ever owned or seen a Sandvik saw that old. All the ones I have owned are made in the 1900s.


My general and thus very fragile concept for dating Sandvik saws is based on studying etches, medallions and the variations in the company logo:


Etches
Etch theory I: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8782509810/in/set-72157633594885974)Any saw featuring text written in Swedish only, must be of the oldest kind. There might have been several, but some feature the word SANDVIK at the top of the etch and some feature the full company name SANDVIKENS JERNVERKS AB SANDVIKEN SVERIGE as well as a different logo depicting a cross with a capitalized S in the middle:


Etch theory II: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/7152300739/in/set-72157633594885974) Any saw featuring text written partially in Swedish and English is oldish.


Etch theory IIA: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/6962757262/in/set-72157633594885974)An etch combination where the two main etches are otherwise identical, but the model number is placed at the bottom of the right hand etch, just below the fish and hook. Saws from this era have often lost the model number as it engages with the workpiece and therefore is very often worn off. As seen in ad from 1935. Interestingly enough the position of the model number is identical to that of what I believe to be much later three etch/print designs.


Etch theory IIB: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8759325696/in/set-72157633594885974)An etch combination where the model number is placed centered in between the two main etches is of a later production, as spotted in an ad from 1948.


Etch theory IIC: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8782509626/in/set-72157633594885974)Any saw featuring an etch written in Finnish (yes, Sandvik did have a factory in Finland for a while in the 1930s) combined with the cross logo is made sometime around 1937 as evidenced by a product catalogue from that year. The Finnish plant was established in 1933 but wasn't very long lived.


Etch theory III: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/6962757146/in/set-72157633594885974)Any saw featuring text written only in English is newer. Many a time, the hand saws of this era have three etches, the quality disclaimer to the left, the main etch centered and an tooth setting instruction etch to the right. A confusing detail about this etch combination is that the model number appears at the bottom of the middle (and main) etch. This position of the model number is more in line with the etch IIA (an earlier one) rather than the preceding etch IIC.

Etch theory V: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/7068660483/in/set-72157633594885974/) Any saw featuring only one etch including the quality disclaimer and model number, all written in English (at the top below the SANDVIK logotype). I simply don't know in which order this etch should be placed. I've seen it one one saw.

Etch theory V: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/6962757854/in/set-72157633594885974) Any saw featuring the newer Sandvik logo (capitalized with one line above and another below) is late production. This is more likely always a print. This period spans 30-40 years and will be divided into several studies of their own once I learn more. A common denominator is that the fish and hook appears in all these etches and prints. A differing detail is that the company name appears in at least three different ways.


Medallions
Medallion theory I: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8782643396/in/set-72157633594885974)Any medallion displaying a capitalized S encircled by the company name written in Swedish is of the very old kind.


Medallion theory II: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8782509888/in/set-72157633594885974)Any medallion displaying only a cross with a centered S is old. I could well have placed theory I and II in the wrong order. The cross does appear in a product catalogue published in 1937, which makes me think Sandvik ought to have made the Theory I saws before this. But I am not sure.


Medallion theory III: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8744747194/in/set-72157633594885974)Any medallion displaying the company name written in Swedish at the top, featuring the fish and hook in the middle and the place of origin at the bottom written in English, is an older one. These appear as niclek plated brass nuts and brass only.


Medallion theory IV: (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8775941371/in/set-72157633594885974)Any medallion displaying only SANDVIK followed by the fish and hook is of the newer kind. This medallion coexists with newer type brass nuts with more rounded ends and Phillips screw slots


Other etches
There are several other etches, including the famous ship etch of the no 280. I passed down an offer to buy a almost NOS no 280 with a black plastic handle about a year ago. I'm still beating myself for this because this saw is one of Sandvik's finest. There are a lot of late era etches like the Sandvik "Jubilation", the Sandvik "Högboo" and others, but these were in my opinion marketing gimmicks made to boost the sales of modern era saws with laminated handles and printed etches.


Sandvik made a lot of saws for international export. A sea of saws were sold in the UK and US, and it seems to me like the saws spotted in the US are slightly different than those found in Scandinavia. Tooth configuration is one thing, but also how the teeth were shaped. This would be related to a much more frequent and varied use of hand saws for varying purposes and woods in the States.


There might well be other medallions unknown to or forgotten by me, but regardless of etch or medallion, any details about productions periods would be highly appreciated. And if all you have is one of those nasty late era saws with wobbly n´backs and shaky and thin plastic handles, that's just fine. Any details about any production period and model will be appreciated. And images displaying etches and medallions would be very helpful.


Greetings from Finland where the wood anemones are giving way for the summer flowers. (http://www.visitraseborg.com/en/do/605-varen-i-raseborg)

[David Weaver]

Most of us probably won't be much help over here. I love the older sandvik saws, but I never see them anywhere. I'll be reading through your documentation, though.

[Kim Malmberg]

I'm not so sure about that. As far as I can tell there are more Sandvik saws in circulation in the UK and US than I see on Swedish auction sites. And you are a few more. :-) But I agree that a surprisingly small amount of Sandvik saws are spotted despite te fact that Sandvik at one point was the largest manufacturer on the planet. And I do hope other Scandinavians and Europeans would spot this post as well.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I think I can find them pretty easily on ebay. But they go for a lot there, like disstons. I think I can probably touch up the teeth on the hammered D8 that I discussed above, be totally honest about its condition, make a quick video of it and still get more money than I'd be comfortable charging strictly because it says "disston" on it. Never hammered it until yesterday, I don't care much to hammer saws that show no ill effects in use, but it's toxic on a sale.

At any rate, I'll keep my eyes open for more sandvik stuff just to see the price there. I'm a big big fan of anything that comes from sweden or eskilstuna, whether it comes in western tools or japanese tools.

[Jonathan McCullough]

One of the first few saws that started my collection is a couple of (270? 277?) 1970s Sandviks. Good Swedish steel and as I recall, a succession of lines down the length, which were I suppose left over from the taper grinding process. I like the nonconformist Pictish-looking designs on the handles. They are fine saws and regularly get a premium on ebay. When I was a tot, well after Disston collapsed and Atkins just sort of got tucked away in the malodorous skinfold of a morbidly corpulent hardware manufacturing corporation, the Sandviks were the only traditionally-made handsaws you could buy anywhere. Everything else was just a thick sheet of spring steel with (overset) teeth punched in, attached to a non-ergonomic, indifferently styled blob of a handle. Eventually you couldn't get Sandviks either. Everything I've seen in the States is from that era, so I can't comment too much on what may have been available in Europe before then. I wonder if the scarcity of examples may have anything to do with the midcentury visitation of Teutons.

[Kim Malmberg]

I wonder if the scarcity of examples may have anything to do with the midcentury visitation of Teutons.

Aaaaah. Jonathan has the answer. I had been wondering. Really. I know they churned out saws like demons and still nobody seems to sell them in Sweden. I do find some here in Finland, but considering the production span of a hundred years you'd want to think there were still more around. Or, could they all be hiding in a derelict barn, chewing on the last Swedish meatballs and hoping not to be discovered by those bad people who throw away or paint perfectly good old saws?

[Jim Matthews]

I wonder if the scarcity of examples may have anything to do with the midcentury visitation of Teutons.

Do you suppose the steel was reclaimed for military use?

[Jonathan McCullough]

They invaded Sweden principally for steel production, but would they have stolen everything not nailed down? Seems like the European perspective is mostly about before the war or after the war; a lot of things happened. We need an old Swede to tell us about the industry and show us examples.

[george wilson]

I don't recall Sandvik handles being any nicer than any one else's modern handles. I had 2 years ago. One had crowned tooth line. They are gone now,where I don't know. One was stainless,I think.

[Kim Malmberg]

I don't recall Sandvik handles being any nicer than any one else's modern handles.

Generlaly I don't think Sandvik can compare themselves with the Americans or the British as far as handle designs and comfortability goes. The view was rather practical. The apple handles with dragons were large and possibly made to allow for wearing mittens or gloves and they certainly don't fit a mid sized hand very well. The plastic handles mimicking the old apple handle were still OK, although they are notoriously prone to be damaged. The last 20-30 years of production was a constant decline as far as the handles are concerned. Some of the newest Sandviks I have tried out had sloppy and thin handles and they neither support the plate nor hit the sweetspot in the plate. Awful.
The true quality of a Sandvik saw is in the saw plate. Which means that even late era saws have good steel that can be used as parts for Frankensaws.

[Kees Heiden]

I have one Sandvik saw, but it rather new (1970's). It has the last medailon you described. No etch visible anymore. The handle is awfull, way too big and ugly, but with some weath carving. The sawplate isn't tapered, it is 1mm thick all around. Which is a pitty, otherwise I would have used it to make another saw. Sorry, not much help for your investigation.

[Mike Allen1010]

I have a couple 1920s era Sandvik handsaws that probably have the best steel of anything in my shop.

One is a Dragon #271 I inherited from my wife's grandfather who was a cabinetmaker in New York City for 40 years. This saw has one of the coolest etchs I've seen -- if I get motivated to try and post some pictures, but here's what it says:

"SANDVIK taper ground the whole width,Made from best Sandvik alloy charcoal steel by the Sandvik steelworks Co. LTD Sweden" and includes setting instructions etched into the plate "Sandvik saws are universally recognized for exceptional edge holding qualities. To avoid tooth breakage they must be set with care. Do not attempt to set from the base the tooth but set the point only" below the text it shows a diagram of two saw teeth shaded to indicate the "correct" and "wrong" way to set the saw.

This 22 inch, 11 PPI saw is incredibly stiff and is one of my favorite cross cutter's that I use at the bench all the time. The Tote is plywood with the embossed Dragon markings. I figure if it was good enough to help a French cabinetmaker with no English make a living in New York City for 40 years, it's good enough for me.

All the best, Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I figure if it was good enough to help a French cabinetmaker with no English make a living in New York City for 40 years, it's good enough for me.

Sounds like there is more than just a great tool in your hands being put to wood with this saw.

jtk

[Kim Malmberg]

I have a couple 1920s era Sandvik handsaws that probably have the best steel of anything in my shop. The Tote is plywood with the embossed Dragon markings.
...
"SANDVIK taper ground the whole width,Made from best Sandvik alloy charcoal steel by the Sandvik steelworks Co. LTD Sweden" and includes setting instructions etched into the plate "Sandvik saws are universally recognized for exceptional edge holding qualities. To avoid tooth breakage they must be set with care.
Hi Mike. How do you know the saw is a 1920s saw? I'm wondering because plywood and 1920s doesn't quite seem right to me. And the three etch variation (including the setting instruction) does as far as I can understand on saws made around the 1950s and later.

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Kim,

I don't know for a fact my Sandvik saws are from the 1920s (that's when my wife's grandfather opened his cabinet shop). I think you're right that the plywood handles mean they are more likely to be from the 1950s.

I appreciate you doing the research here to create a helpful timeline of the Sandvik handsaw models.

I stink at estimating time frames -- I'm always embarrassed to the doctor's office when they ask for my boys birthdays and I don't know! However, I'm pretty solid when it comes to hand saws and I stand by the idea that the Sandvik steel as good and likely better than any other in my till- which is an embarrassingly large number!

All the best, Mike

[dennis hörnlund]

Hi Kim,

I don't know for a fact my Sandvik saws are from the 1920s (that's when my wife's grandfather opened his cabinet shop). I think you're right that the plywood handles mean they are more likely to be from the 1950s.

I appreciate you doing the research here to create a helpful timeline of the Sandvik handsaw models.

I stink at estimating time frames -- I'm always embarrassed to the doctor's office when they ask for my boys birthdays and I don't know! However, I'm pretty solid when it comes to hand saws and I stand by the idea that the Sandvik steel as good and likely better than any other in my till- which is an embarrassingly large number!

All the best, Mike


Hi all, i have one like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/77333663@N07/8759325696/in/set-72157633594885974

my is no277, and in new condition. Someone have information about this one?

Sorry for bad webcam pictures :P

http://i.imgur.com/YNjEm9W.jpg (http://imgur.com/YNjEm9W)

http://i.imgur.com/YNjEm9W.jpg (http://imgur.com/YNjEm9W)

http://i.imgur.com/u2pE6bX.jpg (http://imgur.com/u2pE6bX)

http://i.imgur.com/Ek6LHyb.jpg (http://imgur.com/Ek6LHyb)

http://i.imgur.com/NsCol2v.jpg (http://imgur.com/NsCol2v)

http://i.imgur.com/B5caTo8.jpg (http://imgur.com/B5caTo8)

[Max Kennedy]

Looking in my shop at some old handsaws I have accumulated over the years and found a Sandvik Tradition saw. After looking the name up I found your old ( 2013 ) forum re: these saws. I don't know if there is any interest remaining but if there is I would be glad to furnish more details about mine. Pics, maybe? Whatever the case I enjoyed reading about them. Thanks.

Max M. Kennedy

[bill epstein]

I've often thought about dating a Sandvik but ....

This is my Dovetail Saw, bought back in the 80's when it was either Constantine's or Garrett Wade for the Tage Frid approved brand. I've worn out numerous double extra slim files over the years and it still rips better than new.

403205

403204

[Tom M King]

I bought new Sandvik handsaws in the 1970's, from a company called Silvo Hardware, that had an amazing catalog. Most of mine are 270's, and 288's. Since then, I've bought every NOS one I came across that still had the cardboard sleeve on it, and have probably a dozen that have never been used, with no rust on them. They are still my daily users.