Sharpening technique--removing the wire edge

[Steve Voigt]

Hi all,
This post may portray me as embarrassingly stupid and inefficient, but whatever. Here goes.
For the last 15 years, regardless of the sharpening media, I have used the following method:
1) hone a secondary bevel on a coarse stone until I can feel the wire edge on the back, all the way across.
2) remove wire edge on a medium stone.
3) hone the secondary bevel on the medium stone until I can feel the wire edge again.
4) remove wire edge on a fine stone.
5) hone secondary bevel on the fine stone.
6) remove wire edge on the fine stone one more time. Maybe palm strop.

This weekend, I watched a couple short videos by Paul Sellers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM) and Chris Schwarz (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/shut-up-and-sharpen). They have very different approaches in some ways, but one important thing in common: They both hone the bevel on coarse, medium, and fine stones without ever stopping to remove the wire edge. They only remove the wire edge at the very end, as the last step. And it seems to only take them a couple strokes, whereas I typically need a dozen strokes or more to remove the wire.

So, have I been wasting a ton of time all these years? Is this how you all do it?
One thing I don't get is, how do they know when they've honed enough on the medium and fine stones? It seems like guesswork to me, but I'll be the first to admit they both know far more than I do. Anyway, would love to hear what people have to say.

-Steve

[David Weaver]

It's a matter of experience to know when to stop. If you have chipping, you still know you're going to raise a fat wire edge, but there's no reason to remove it. The fine stone will hone it off just fine, and it will be thinly attached to the edge. If you alternate front and back briefly and lightly, it'll probably just come off at the end without any interference.

If you're using a grinder and you use more than two stones, you're probably wasting your time a little bit unless the stones themselves are slow (e.g., it might not be as plausible to go from a freshly surfaced medium india to a nicely worn in oilstone), if you're removing your wire edge every step, you're definitely wasting time, but if it pleases you anyway, you can certainly do whatever you want.

It might seem odd to not remove the wire edge and inspect, but it's like anything else where you use experience to take an educated guess at something rather than demand immedate pre-completion feedback.

[Jim Koepke]

There are many ways to get the job done.

In the Schwarz video, he is using a holder. Instead of looking for a fresh wire edge at each step, he is checking the scratch pattern on the bevel. He is also working with stones that are maintained to be flat. Working with perfectly flat stones can make a difference. My stones are occasionally flattened. I know, BLASPHEMY! The sharpening Gods will come after me.

My way of doing this is to free hand. For that it helps to remove the wire edge at each step. When using a holder I do not always remove the wire between grits.

The Sellers method just doesn't impress me. It is likely to work, but for me a flat bevel is my choice. For me, secondary bevels do not make as much sense as just having another chisel sharpened to a different angle.

We often have sharpening questions here. Often my comments on getting to sharp before trying all the fancy tricks like secondary bevels, tertiary bevels, back bevels, ruler tricks and cambering catch a bit of objection. Maybe next time it will be my suggestion to include everyone of those in one's initial attempt at sharpening and then when it doesn't work, regrind and make a flat back meet a flat bevel and find sharp before trying any tricks.

As far as palm stropping goes, it works, but my fear is an accidental cut to the hand or breaking off a wire edge that becomes a sliver in the palm.

One of my stropping leathers is soft and pliable. It is used often in my palm for stropping gouges.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I've spent hours around Paul Sellers in the class room. His methods work! They are not the only method, but I can assure you that his tools are very very sharp.

He takes the edge off on a leather strop charged with a honing compound.

[dan sherman]

The Sellers method just doesn't impress me. It is likely to work, but for me a flat bevel is my choice. For me, secondary bevels do not make as much sense as just having another chisel sharpened to a different angle.

We often have sharpening questions here. Often my comments on getting to sharp before trying all the fancy tricks like secondary bevels, tertiary bevels, back bevels, ruler tricks and cambering catch a bit of objection. Maybe next time it will be my suggestion to include everyone of those in one's initial attempt at sharpening and then when it doesn't work, regrind and make a flat back meet a flat bevel and find sharp before trying any tricks.


Come on Jim they are not tricks....

They are techniques to accomplish very specific tasks. The problem I see is that a lot of people saying to do this or that don't say why.

secondary bevels - Are pretty much needed if you are using a flat grinding method like worksharp, scary sharp, or diamond stones for rough work. It allows someone to do exactly what you do when you hollow grind. it allows you to hone a very small surface, and that means less time honing, and less wear on the stones. This technique does require a honing guide though.

tertiary bevels - as far as I'm concerned the only reason for this, is if the secondary bevel has grown fairly large and thus taking a while to hone, and you don't want to go back to the grinder or rough stones just yet.

back bevels - only for use on bevel down planes. If you got a hunk of gnarly wood and you blade is sharp and your still getting a bunch of tear out, you have 4 options. 1. sand away the tear out, use a card scraper to clean up the tear out, swap to a higher angle frog, or put a back bevel on your blade.

the ruler trick - it just like a secondary devel in that it allows you to hone a very small area. This should never be used on chisels, but can be a great time saver on old plane blades, or card scrapers. Having flattened the back of an original #5 type 13 blade by hand, I can tell you the ruler trick is a much faster option.

cambering - how can you argue this isn't needed? its the only way to avoid plane tracks.

[Chris Griggs]

Unless i have excessive wear or edge damage on the back of the blade for some reason I do not work the back on anything other than my finest stone. If you find it helpful to remove it each grit level do so only on your finish stone so you don't have to work back up from a lower scratch pattern on the back each time.

I don't touch the back until I get to my finest stone, however when I get there I do actually work the back on the stone for a good few strokes to make sure I hone out any wear on the back (not a lot of strokes but not just one swipe to work the burr of either).

If I think there is still a burr I then do what Dave said and switch between the bevel and back a couple times to chase any remaining burr off. I often do palm strop too, but do be careful if you choose to do that...Jim is correct that it is very easy to cut yourself if you are not paying attention.

It not really something you should need to think about too much once it becomes habit. Once you finish on the bevel its just probably 10-15 seconds working that back of the blade on the finest stone, a few flips back an forth at the end, and/or if you are so inclined a few swipe with your palm.

[David Weaver]

palm strop moving your hand instead of the tool. Just alternate it lightly back and forth pulling away from the edge. if the finished edge is off of a fine stone, that'll easily do the trick. If it's off of a medium stone, palm stropping probably won't get the wire edge off, anyway.

I never did cut my palm palm stropping with a chisel or even with a straight razor, but I did accidentally catch a falling straight razor one time. It was a pretty disgusting feeling, and the razor went "pingggggg" as it filleted my finger and got flung out as I was jerking my hand. Ultimately didn't hurt the razor, though, which was more important (seriously..way more important).

[jamie shard]

They only remove the wire edge at the very end, as the last step. And it seems to only take them a couple strokes, whereas I typically need a dozen strokes or more to remove the wire.

Steve, I think it matters how the chisel is used in between sharpenings.

If you keep the edge sharp with frequent bevel sharpening, then there is no need to spend much time on the back.

Sometimes a chisel is touched up again and again on a leather strop (w/ or w/o honing compound) then there can be a bit of a wear bevel on the back from the softness of the leather. In this case, working the back quickly through medium and fine grits might make sense, just to restore flatness.

Some people care a lot about the flatness of the back, others less, so like everything there's options and there is your choice.

[David Weaver]

If whatever is being sharpened, the back always needs to be worked until the wear is removed. If you don't do a perfect job of it, it's not a huge deal, but there is truth to people not spending enough time on the finish stone removing wear from the backs of their irons and chisels. Unless there is damage on the surface of a back, there should never be a need to use anything except your finest stone on the backs.

On really hard irons, the ruler trick is super handy not necessarily for the initial flattening, but because it makes it easy to use a marginal stone to remove all of the wear on the back of an iron. If you sharpen irons with a secondary bevel and then use the ruler trick, and you find the iron is always sharper that way than it is if you just work a flat back, it's because of lack of proper time being spent on the finish stone on the back of an iron or lack of ability to put finger pressure on the chisel above the edge on the back so that you can work off the wear.

I don't mean several minutes of time working the back on a polish stone, more like 30 or 40 swipes instead of 2 or 3. The ruler trick should never be used with that many, though, only enough to remove the wear.

On a refresh of a plane iron, I'd imagine I spend about 10-15 seconds on a medium stone and then 10-15 seconds on the bevel side with a polish stone and probably more like 20 or more on the back. Maybe a minute of total time on the stones. If there is chipping occurring that causes you to spend a lot more time than that, then that's a different problem to solve. You shouldn't have to work nicks out of edges on a regular basis.

[Steve Friedman]

Steve,

There are several ways to determine if you're ready for the next stone without removing the burr between stones. The easiest is probably a Sharpie. Just draw a line along the edge of the bevel. When the line is gone, you're done with that stone. An alternative is to look at the scratch pattern with a 5X, 10X, or even 20X magnifier under good lighting and see what's happening to the edge. When the scratch pattern is uniform across the blade, you're done with that stone.

Another alternative is not to use three stones for the secondary bevel. Experiment, but two (or one and a strop) should be enough. That way, you should be able to see when the secondary bevel is established across the blade. You should be able to see the change when you take the secondary bevel to the final stone (or strop). Use a Sharpie or magnifier if you can't.

As for the ruler technique on plane blades, Stu Tierney wrote a very detailed post here a while ago explaining why you should always use the ruler technique on a plane blade. It's over my head, but it has to do with getting that tiny area of the back as perfect as you can. The back bevel it creates is minute.

I do remove the burr between grits only if it's really big - like after re-establishing the primary bevel on 80 or 120 grit sandpaper. I will remove the burr before letting the blade touch my waterstones just to avoid contaminating the stone. It may not be necessary, but it can't hurt.

Steve

[Kees Heiden]

back bevels - only for use on bevel down planes. If you got a hunk of gnarly wood and you blade is sharp and your still getting a bunch of tear out, you have 4 options. 1. sand away the tear out, use a card scraper to clean up the tear out, swap to a higher angle frog, or put a back bevel on your blade.



Ho ho Dan, not so fast :p! You forgot the first and most important rule to avoid tearout. Learn to use the chipbreaker very close to the edge.

[David Weaver]

I can't believe I missed that.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks very much for the advice, folks. I'll start weaning myself off of the excessive back-polishing.

-Steve

[Adam Cruea]

I will chase the back-burr off my chisels and plane blades when sharpening, just for piece of mind.

Personally, I don't want to gouge my polishing stone. I also find it easier to see a sharp edge and when the edge is straight without a back burr.

Mind you, I don't take 30 seconds on the back; usually I flip it over in the guide and give it a quick to/fro motion then wipe the blade down and move to the next stone. After my polish stone, I've taken to using a leather strop. For me, this produces the most consistent "paper edge cutting" where you just push the blade into the edge of a piece of paper and it slices.

[dan sherman]

Ho ho Dan, not so fast :p! You forgot the first and most important rule to avoid tearout. Learn to use the chipbreaker very close to the edge.

I've yet to meet someone who hasn't learned this, or keeping the mouth as tight as possible for that matter.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, don't do both at the same time, though. I think history of actual plane use will show that the cap iron is far more effective and practical with an open mouth than is adjusting the size of the mouth, as the mouth has to be extremely tight if used by itself to prevent tearout in a reasonably heavy cut.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of my experience is in soft woods, but have worked some ash and oak.

My experience is as David states, the chipbreaker is more effective than mouth size.

My other finding is if there is tear out it is often possible to reduce the tear out with the sharpest of blades and chip breaker set close. Usually for me this set up reduces the tear out to such a point that one or two shavings in the opposite direction will remove the tear out and not cause new tear out over the length of the wood.

My exception to this was some pencil cedar that had some very swirly grain. That was a while back and my knowledge has definitely increased since then. At that time my method was to use my smallest plane to address the area that was giving me tear out. It made me think of spinning doughnuts on ice.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

Steve,

I remove the wire edge from my coarse stone (1,000) before moving to my fine stone (16k or 30k) to remove that wire, polish the face and remove that bevel.

If you aren't currently using it, one "secret" to rapidly removing the wire is to use the David Charlesworth "ruler trick" mentioned above. Using that method, in exchange for a tiny (fraction of 1*) backbevel, the only portion of the blade being abraded during the wire removal process is the wire itself.

Without that "trick" it'd take me a mighty long time to wear down the wire if I had to take the whole back of the blade to get there. If you start you wire removal with the blade slightly overhanging the edge of the stone and draw it onto the abrasive, this will further accelerate the process.

Just my $0.02.. YMMV... and Greetings from Alaska! :)

Jim

[Charlie Stanford]

Steve,

I remove the wire edge from my coarse stone (1,000) before moving to my fine stone (16k or 30k) to remove that wire, polish the face and remove that bevel.

If you aren't currently using it, one "secret" to rapidly removing the wire is to use the David Charlesworth "ruler trick" mentioned above. Using that method, in exchange for a tiny (fraction of 1*) backbevel, the only portion of the blade being abraded during the wire removal process is the wire itself.

Without that "trick" it'd take me a mighty long time to wear down the wire if I had to take the whole back of the blade to get there. If you start you wire removal with the blade slightly overhanging the edge of the stone and draw it onto the abrasive, this will further accelerate the process.

Just my $0.02.. YMMV... and Greetings from Alaska! :)

Jim

Well, my mileage certainly varies and I don't understand the hoopla, apparent difficulty, and need for tricks in removing a wire edge. Name your poison - pant leg, leather strop, hand, endgrain on block of wood, brown paper grocery bag, linen strop, the list could go on practically forever.

Really, even calling it a wire edge is or should be a misnomer if you understand what you're doing -- after flipping back and forth, front to back, a few times on your finest stone what you then have a need to remove is really just rag or remnants of what was the burr. This tiny bit of detritus certainly DOES NOT warrant the ruler trick or any such thing.

I think you guys are raising too big a burr or have a misunderstanding of the varying application of pressure as you complete the honing process. Lighten up your pressure on your last passes and certainly when you start flipping to flex the burr. Many of you may just be raising a fresh wire edge during 'the flip' and this is causing all your headaches.

And those of you honing on superfine media shouldn't need to strop at all - at least not to remove rag. You might want to strop to polish and smooth over the crags a little - 'dulling to make a better edge' I think Hoadley called it.

[Jim Matthews]

I just attended a lengthy class taught by Paul Sellers and have a few noob observations about the method that were not obvious to me, anyway.

Everything is done with the stone at belt height. This does two things; you can keep a consistent angle of attack, you can bring force to bear on the iron.
This method really does require more exertion than most of us would expect - it's not dainty.

If you're attempting to follow the three stones and a strop method, make certain your bench is sufficiently low.
If it's higher than your belt buckle, it will be a struggle to do it quickly with the force required.

Additionally, the burr raised on any iron off the coarsest stone should be quite heavy.
I'm only guessing, but I suppose the thickness of the wire edge raised is close to the size of the abrasive particle.

This is chased at each successive grit to an ever finer "strand".
The last step before stropping is to pull the flat back of the iron once along the finest stone - just to align it with the front bevel.

Stropping must be done at a consistent angle, with sufficient force to compress the leather.
The idea is to have the finest abrasive act as a polish along the entire bevel.

If the iron isn't firmly in contact with the leather, not all of the bevel will be polished.
If the iron isn't drawn briskly across the leather, a roll will form in front of the edge like a wave - also limiting the contact patch.

It's like getting the proper inflation on tires in wet weather - too little air pressure and you wear the edges unevenly.
Too fast, and you hydroplane - losing contact with the road beneath you.

Lastly, the "attack" angle must be held constant or the cutting edge gets dubbed over.

What I like most about this method is that the stones are always flat, and clean up is easy.

There may well be methods that get sharper edges, but this one gets me back to work quickly.

[Frederick Skelly]

Lowell, where did you take your classes with Sellers?

[Jim Koepke]

This thread has been very interesting.

My thought on the burr/wire edge is if it can be felt with a finger, it is time to remove it and check your blade. There are a lot of knots in western white pine and they tend to put light nicks in a blade.

Normally my blades hit the stones before they need a stoning on a 1000. Sometimes on certain blades by a maker who will remain nameless, but is his initials are Ron Hock, seem to stay sharp up to a point where they start cutting poorly, either not taking fine cuts or making ribbons. They are the ones most likely to get treated to the coarse (1000) stone. Please do not misunderstand this, I think they are great blades and if needed I will buy another.

For me, it is work the blade on the first stone, which sometimes is an 8000 sometimes something courser, until it looks like a burr is forming. Remove the burr on the first stone being used by setting it on the stone and pulling it back. This is not really going to put many scratches on the back and unless a large burr has been made, it should only take one stroke. Then the blade is checked to see if the nicks have been removed. Raise another burr as needed. (rinse and repeat, how do you know when to stop washing your hair if your supposed keep repeating?) When the nicks are gone, move to the next stone. With this stone it is only necessary to raise the slightest of burr across the blade's width. Pull the back of the blade back across the stone and check the edge and the back. If the back has much round over you may need to work the back to your own liking.

If you do not let your blades get overly dull between sharpenings there won't be much back wear if you're not trying for 0.050 shavings.

Today my #6 try/fore/jack/jointer/smoother was making ribbons, so out came the blade. My recollection is that I made three burrs before moving on to the next stone. Took only a few minutes. The next two stones, 4000 and 8000 didn't take a minute each to raise and remove the burr. Off to the strop and then back in to the plane.

This was done freehand. Using a micro bevel, holder, ruler trick or cambering would have all taken some more time.


Everything is done with the stone at belt height. This does two things; you can keep a consistent angle of attack, you can bring force to bear on the iron.
This method really does require more exertion than most of us would expect - it's not dainty.

My waterstone station is higher. While holding a blade with my arms locked my body is moved with my legs and hip to control the angle. Sometimes I do just move my arms for faster results.

The most important thing about sharpening is what works for the person doing the sharpening and being able to repeatedly produce a sharp tool. If one can achieve an edge with which they can do their work, what else really matters? No one has ever looked at my finished work and made comments about my sharpening methods.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

My waterstone station is higher. While holding a blade with my arms locked my body is moved with my legs and hip to control the angle. jtk

I have used both the Shapton system as recommended using a honing guide and the diamond stones freehand.
I think both methods achieve very keen and sharp edges. With a guide, I drew the iron toward me and could manage to hone with only finger pressure.

Using diamond stones requires pushing the iron into the diamond plate. That motion would gouge my Shapton's, requiring reflattening of a stone.
The diamond plates should last beyond my lifetime, if I don't let them rust - and won't require flattening. That's one step saved, right there.

The method (as best I managed to grasp it, anyway) shown by Mr. Sellers strives for a polished, full convex bevel on the plane blade and chisels used in the class.
No clamp guide, or cambering jig is used - another step avoided.

There are finer degrees of polish alluded to in his companion text, but the regular application of dull iron to coarse/medium/fine diamond stones and stropping with Chromium Oxide (0.5 micron)
very rapidly produces and edge keen enough to slice paper. I was never able to get this kind of control or repeatable result with other methods.

The part that convinced me to migrate to this method was watching the clock on the YouTube videos demonstrating this method.

A more practiced hand might get to the same finish with good stones, but for me it's considerably faster, and doesn't require a dedicated bench space.
It's my results that matter in my shop, not a demonstrator's prowess.

[george wilson]

I never make a wire edge that is perceptible to the eye when sharpening on a stone. When I pull the edge through the corner of a piece of wood I get some teeny amount of gray metal left. I just don't excessively sharpen my edges and pre maturely wear out my blades.

The only time I get a wire edge is when I am intentionally grinding a lot off on a belt grinder for some purpose.

[Jim Koepke]

I never make a wire edge that is perceptible to the eye when sharpening on a stone.

Mostly I notice it by the way the water tension indicates at the edge. The water at the edge is a little more rounded than the water up the back. If the water is flicked off it doesn't show. It can usually be detected by running a finger down the back of the blade and over the arris.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

David has made some very useful points to which I will add some thoughts.

When you initially sharpen a plane or chisel blade, the back needs to be worked thoroughly and carefully on very very flat stones. This means you must true your stones beforehand, especially the rough and medium stones, since they are the ones that remove the most metal, and so can do the most damage. This point is contrary to intuition, and is where most people searching to create extremely sharp blades stumble repeatedly. I know I did. This is the most important rule in sharpening, IMO.

As David said, after the back is properly flattened and polished (mirror shine) with no visible scratches, you will not need to, and should not, touch the back of the blade on any stone but your finest finishing stone, unless the blade is badly damaged, or the blade needs to be "tapped out" in the case of Japanese blades. There is no doubt that once you follow this rule, the issue of "wire edge" resolves itself.

When refreshing a blade, one that does not have chips or dings, there is no need to insist on creating what you call a "wire," and what is more commonly called a burr. You can feel the degree of sharpness and any remaining defects of the blade at each stage in sharpening by laying the flat of the blade against the side of your left hand index finger, rotating the angle so the cutting edge is just touching your skin, and ever so lightly cutting the callous there. If you do this right, there is no chance of the blade injuring you. When it feels sharp enough to move on to the next stone, simply move on. Don't waste time and steel slavishly trying to create an unecessary burr.

However, if the edge is chipped and dinged and needs a bit of material removed to get past flaws, raising a burr consistently across the width of the blade is a quick and sure way to get started. But when you have raised this burr, do not try to work it off, and above all, don't think of bending it back and forth. The burr is fragile and work hardening it will damage the edge. Early removal of the burr leaves jagged areas on the cutting edge you can see with a magnifier. Think of making the burr thinner and thinner with each stroke on each stone so that it finally dissolves on the finishing stone leaving a perfect edge.

BTW, I highly recommend to anyone serious about sharpening that they get a small pocket magnifier (32x is good) to help them see and understand and evaluate the progress of their sharpening efforts. This tool will do more to accelerate your understanding of sharpening than a hundred magazine articles.

One other thing. A blade that creates a big enduring burr easily may be too soft, although I acknowledge that this is a relative thing, and different people see soft and hard in tool steel differently.

The ruler trick is, in my opinion, an emergency measure only. I do not dismiss it, or regard it as bad craftsmanship, since the technique, or some equivalent, has its place, and has always been used by experienced craftsmen in all lands at all times. But if a blade is conditioned using the ruler trick, it becomes the only way to achieve a sharp edge for that blade. If a blade's back is flattened and maintained properly, the ruler trick is unnecessary and wasteful except in special cases. In fact, careful analysis of blade geometry teaches that working a properly conditioned blade on a finish waterstone effectively creates a similar effect as the ruler trick, but on a microscopic level. The ruler trick just exaggerates this effect a hundredfold, and becomes a crutch.

Stan

[Jim Matthews]

I never make a wire edge that is perceptible to the eye when sharpening on a stone. When I pull the edge through the corner of a piece of wood I get some teeny amount of gray metal left. I just don't excessively sharpen my edges and pre maturely wear out my blades. The only time I get a wire edge is when I am intentionally grinding a lot off on a belt grinder for some purpose.

This is a good point - there's no standard set for what's wasteful, and what's necessary.
I would again assert that the wire edge formed must be roughly the thickness of the largest abrasive particle.
(Which is a SWAG - I can't back that up.)

If I understand the sizing of 120 grit (and I will defer to experts - I'm still very early at this) the particle size is 0.0040 inches or somewhere South of 100 microns.
By "heavy" I mean a ribbon of steel is broad enough that I can clearly feel it with my fingertip, but not so large as the burr drawn on a scraper (which can be caught on a fingernail).

This comes off under stropping.

[Jim Koepke]

Stanley,

Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts/knowledge on this subject.

One thing you said:


When refreshing a blade, one that does not have chips or dings, there is no need to insist on creating what you call a "wire," and what is more commonly called a burr.

Had me thinking on a couple of things.

My sharpening often doesn't create a burr. This is likely due to the blade being lifted from the stone on the pull stroke.

In my experience a "wire edge" is something that happens in the minting of coins. Mostly gold or silver coins when the dies squeeze a little metal up around the edge. The example that sticks to my mind is the 1911-D $2.50 gold piece.

To my way of thinking, burr is a metal working term or one of those seed capsules that get caught in one's socks.

A woodworker wants a burr on their scraper and not a wire edge.

Of course this isn't all that important in the morphing of words and phrases. Just a thought while my coffee kicks in.

jtk

[John Coloccia]

I never make a wire edge that is perceptible to the eye when sharpening on a stone. When I pull the edge through the corner of a piece of wood I get some teeny amount of gray metal left. I just don't excessively sharpen my edges and pre maturely wear out my blades.

The only time I get a wire edge is when I am intentionally grinding a lot off on a belt grinder for some purpose.

Ditto. I haven't touched a stone coarser than my Spyrderco ultra-fine in months....but I keep everything very sharp with a leather strop, and I strop very frequently. For me, every couple of strokes isn't too frequent if I have a paring chisel cutting through a difficult wood. Pretty much I hate sharpening. It's just a waste of time. I do everything I can to avoid it, and stropping frequently seems to be the key.

But even when I have to do some heavy duty sharpening for some reason, I never have much of a wire edge and I never touch the back of the blade with anything coarser than my finest grit. Geez, I spent a lot of time getting the back flat and polished. Why would I scratch it all up every time I sharpen?

[Chris Griggs]

Ditto. I haven't touched a stone coarser than my Spyrderco ultra-fine in months....but I keep everything very sharp with a leather strop, and I strop very frequently. For me, every couple of strokes isn't too frequent if I have a paring chisel cutting through a difficult wood. Pretty much I hate sharpening. It's just a waste of time. I do everything I can to avoid it, and stropping frequently seems to be the key.


This makes a lot of sense to me with paring or other chisels that are used for delicate work (which I realize you do a lot of), but do you do it for bench chisels and planes as well? I know you're building guitars mostly so this may not apply as much but it seems like any amount of moderate chopping will dull an edge enough that you would want more than an ultra fine stone or strop and it seems like with planes this would involve a lot of in and out with the blade. I'd be interested to have you comment more specifically on how this works for you?

BTW, this doesn't work for me presently for and entirely different reason. My shop is DUSTY. Not wood dust, but coarse concrete dust in an unfinished basement. It gets everywhere, so inevitably the of my edges tools get scratched up more than they other wise would so I almost always need to raise a decent burr. I constantly need to rinse my stones and keep my strop wrapped up in a paper towel to avoid contamination. Its a total PITA. If this wasn't the case, I'd probably do more touching up, but I still am curious if you prefer that for all tools or just things like paring chisels.

[John Coloccia]

Pretty much all tools, but planes and bench chisels are sharpened to 35 degrees so their edge is more durable to begin with. It's also not critical that they are surgically sharp all the time though it's nice :) I certainly don't strop my planes every few swipes but I do it pretty frequently, though. Probably more frequently than most. It's one of those things that when you do it all the time, it's very very quick and no big deal. It's like changing strings on a guitar. I'm pretty sure I can completely change the strings on a guitar in well under 5 minutes. I see most people take that long just getting the old strings off. When you do it enough, it becomes natural and the time saved down the line by not having to work around strings pays for itself.

[Chris Griggs]

Pretty much all tools, but planes and bench chisels are sharpened to 35 degrees so their edge is more durable to begin with. It's also not critical that they are surgically sharp all the time though it's nice :) I certainly don't strop my planes every few swipes but I do it pretty frequently, though. Probably more frequently than most. It's one of those things that when you do it all the time, it's very very quick and no big deal. It's like changing strings on a guitar. I'm pretty sure I can completely change the strings on a guitar in well under 5 minutes. I see most people take that long just getting the old strings off. When you do it enough, it becomes natural and the time saved down the line by not having to work around strings pays for itself.

Thanks John. Good food for thought.

[Charlie Stanford]

This makes a lot of sense to me with paring or other chisels that are used for delicate work (which I realize you do a lot of), but do you do it for bench chisels and planes as well? I know you're building guitars mostly so this may not apply as much but it seems like any amount of moderate chopping will dull an edge enough that you would want more than an ultra fine stone or strop and it seems like with planes this would involve a lot of in and out with the blade. I'd be interested to have you comment more specifically on how this works for you?

BTW, this doesn't work for me presently for and entirely different reason. My shop is DUSTY. Not wood dust, but coarse concrete dust in an unfinished basement. It gets everywhere, so inevitably the of my edges tools get scratched up more than they other wise would so I almost always need to raise a decent burr. I constantly need to rinse my stones and keep my strop wrapped up in a paper towel to avoid contamination. Its a total PITA. If this wasn't the case, I'd probably do more touching up, but I still am curious if you prefer that for all tools or just things like paring chisels.

FWIW what I usually do, which is beyond quaint by today's standards, is take a dull cutter to my No. 1 Washita. I raise a burr/wire edge in about three or four strokes, I pull the cutter on the back ONCE to flip the burr, then I go to a hard black Arky and hone the beveled side about ten strokes, then I hit the back about 15 to 20 strokes (both using pretty much the full length of the stone), then flip back and forth a few times with very light pressure, then I usually just run the edge through the endgrain of the top of what has become my sharpening bench to pull off the remaining rag I assume is there. Sometimes I use a hard strop charged with AlOx powder though not always - the cutter in my No. 4 would see the strop more than the cutter in my No. 6 for instance. When paring I freshen edges on the hard strop but eventually drop back to the No. 1 Washita and start the process again.

When using the stones I always raise some sort of palpable wire edge; with my set up it's almost impossible not to. If I let the cutter get a little 'too' dull I raise a more distinct wire to move the edge back to a good intersection of bevel and back.

I could have honed three plane irons in the time it took me to write this.

[Chris Griggs]

FWIW what I usually do, which is beyond quaint by today's standards, is take a dull cutter to my No. 1 Washita. I raise a burr/wire edge in about three or four strokes, I pull the cutter on the back ONCE to flip the burr, then I go to a hard black Arky and hone the beveled side about ten strokes, then I hit the back about 15 to 20 strokes (both using pretty much the full length of the stone), then flip back and forth a few times with very light pressure, then I usually just run the edge through the endgrain of the top of what has become my sharpening bench to pull off the remaining rag I assume is there. Sometimes I use a hard strop charged with AlOx powder though not always - the cutter in my No. 4 would see the strop more than the cutter in my No. 6 for instance. When paring I freshen edges on the hard strop but eventually drop back to the No. 1 Washita and start the process again.

When using the stones I always raise some sort of palpable wire edge; with my set up it's almost impossible not to. If I let the cutter get a little 'too' dull I raise a more distinct wire to move the edge back to a good intersection of bevel and back.

I could have honed three plane irons in the time it took me to write this.

That's actually very very much what I do too. Only difference is I typically use my waterstones, and I wait until the fine stone to wipe the burr. You're correct, nothing complex about it is needed.

[David Weaver]

novaculite oilstones fan out a wire edge that is a lot more uniform and perceptible than harsher synthetic stones (i.e., you can raise a wire edge without removing as much metal, it's not necessarily a matter of brashness like a fat wire edge is off of an aluminum oxide stone).

What I mean by that is that an 800 grit synthetic stone will make a big wire edge if you push it and push it, and under it the edge will be jagged. A washita that's actually cutting finer will make a similar sized wire edge, but it will be hiding a smoother result when it breaks off.

I don't do anything after a shapton 15k, there's no reason to. There is a lot of improvement from light stropping on a good clean strop off of any hard oilstone, though.

[Jim Koepke]

... nothing complex about it is needed.

Agreed.

Keeping things simple is usually an effective approach. This is why whenever someone posts about having problems with their sharpening my advise is to get back to the basic idea of making two planes meet at the thinest possible line.

With a half a dozen different tricks involved in making an edge, how is one supposed to understand which one was the source of their problem?

jtk

[David Weaver]

..nothing complex about it is needed.

If moe norman described it, he'd say "you just take this dumb guy and rub it on that dumb guy. It's so easy".

That's pretty much how it goes. All of this talk is more about curiosity than need.

[John Coloccia]

If moe norman described it, he'd say "you just take this dumb guy and rub it on that dumb guy. It's so easy".

That's pretty much how it goes. All of this talk is more about curiosity than need.

Moe Norman would start with a sharp blade and quip, "The problem with you guys is you start with a dull blade. I get rid of half my problems by starting with a sharp blade. No one else can sharpen like this but I can. Look how easy!"

[David Weaver]

Yeah...you're right, I forgot about his "nobody knows the secret but me" line. I love to hear old tapes of moe talking.

I guess the difference is sharpening really is easy. Playing golf at a plus handicap level isn't.

[John Coloccia]

He was incredible, wasn't he? Everyone says, "Oh, Tiger makes it look easy" or someone else makes it look easy. LOL. Tiger makes it look effortless. Moe made it look EASY.

[george wilson]

Everyone disagrees about everything. There are self appointed experts that argue that edges should not be made of polished surfaces.

[John Coloccia]

Everyone disagrees about everything. There are self appointed experts that argue that edges should not be made of polished surfaces.

What are you talking about? A serrated edge on a chisel works really well for slicing through warm Italian bread.
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:D

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,

Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts/knowledge on this subject.

One thing you said:



Had me thinking on a couple of things.

My sharpening often doesn't create a burr. This is likely due to the blade being lifted from the stone on the pull stroke.

In my experience a "wire edge" is something that happens in the minting of coins. Mostly gold or silver coins when the dies squeeze a little metal up around the edge. The example that sticks to my mind is the 1911-D $2.50 gold piece.

To my way of thinking, burr is a metal working term or one of those seed capsules that get caught in one's socks.

A woodworker wants a burr on their scraper and not a wire edge.

Of course this isn't all that important in the morphing of words and phrases. Just a thought while my coffee kicks in.

jtk

Wow, I wish had experience minting gold or silver coins. The only kind of metals I ever get to work with are steel, copper, zinc, chrome or aluminum!

Re burr vs wire, potato potahtoh. I think "wire edge" is a term reserved to woodworking tools. I don't like it because, at least in my feverish mind, it suggests a substantial and independent piece of metal rather than a barely visible attached "rag," borrowing Charlie's terminology.

I hope the coffee was good.

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

Charlie,

Do you use a hollow grind on the bevel? Or do you lift the blade slightly on your Arkansas stone, creating a secundairy bevel? Or is the bevel always flat on the stone?


Greetings, Kees

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie,

Do you use a hollow grind on the bevel? Or do you lift the blade slightly on your Arkansas stone, creating a secundairy bevel? Or is the bevel always flat on the stone?


Greetings, Kees

The irons in my No. 5 and No. 6 have convex bevels at around 30*, all the rest of my plane irons are hollow ground at 25* and honed at the grinding angle. My chisels are hollow ground at 20* to 25* and honed on the grind, not lifted. I do have on 1" chisel that is ground at probably 15* (in that vicinity). My mortise chisels (light, of the 'sash' variety) are hollow ground at something a little over 30* and they too are honed at the grinding angle. I have found over the years that I can make mortises much faster by tap-tapping and cutting - not mauling and prying. I hardly pry at all - I lift loose chips, but don't pry.

I don't lift cutters to introduce secondaries on anything in my shop. I frankly don't understand the point in doing so; if the cutter needs a 5* higher angle then just grind it at that angle in the first place. The hollow grind is there to be used as a jig and that's what I use it for -- the positive registration it provides. Unless a cutter has a nick, I grind just to introduce a hollow to be used as a jig for freehand sharpening, I don't raise a burr at the grinder. I keep the hollow fresh in lieu of using a honing jig. I do convex bevels only on the 5 and 6 and pretty much as illustrated by Paul Sellers and Steve Branam in their videos. I like the technique a lot.

I was thinking about all of this last night while in the shop. The cutter in my No. 4 was dull. I removed the cutter, took it to my hard black Arkansas, I raised a burr all the way across the very slightly crowned cutter in eight full length strokes, including those with a little extra pressure at the outside 1/3rd of the cutter in order to maintain the curvature. I stroked the back fifteen or so strokes, I flipped the cutter back and forth a few times on the Arky, stropped it about three strokes bevel and back on a hard rubber strop and then swiped it through end grain pine. This took about forty seconds, total. Done.

[Kees Heiden]

I think I'm going to try honing for a while without raising. The secondairy honing bevel always means more time in the next sharpening on the coarser stone until you reach the edge. I am feeling now that the time saved with the secondairy bevel is more then offset inthe next sharpening session.

[David Weaver]

Kees, what are you using for your final stone? microbevel freehand should be tiny tiny, and the primary should be steep enough to hold the edge without chipping. oilstones are kind of nice for that if the finish stone is settled in because the washita will cut fast and the finish stone really slowly. Little more fiddly with synthetic stones because the finish stones cut so fast relative to the medium stones if they are being compared to oilstones.

[Michael Ray Smith]

palm strop moving your hand instead of the tool. Just alternate it lightly back and forth pulling away from the edge. if the finished edge is off of a fine stone, that'll easily do the trick. If it's off of a medium stone, palm stropping probably won't get the wire edge off, anyway.

I never did cut my palm palm stropping with a chisel or even with a straight razor, but I did accidentally catch a falling straight razor one time. It was a pretty disgusting feeling, and the razor went "pingggggg" as it filleted my finger and got flung out as I was jerking my hand. Ultimately didn't hurt the razor, though, which was more important (seriously..way more important).

Okay, y'all, I've never heard of palm stropping before. I looked for a video on YouTube to see if it's what it sounds like, and, yep, it is. I suppose I sometimes remove a very thin wire burr just by rubbing it with my thumb, but I never really considered that stropping. However, when I was a kid sharpening my knife, after a whet stone (all I ever had were those cheap hardware store whet stones with one course side and one finer side -- or maybe even just a smooth rock from a creek) I would sometimes strop first on my belt and then finish by stropping on my blue jeans. Or sometimes on newspaper. (I think I've also read posts from George about using paper to sharpen blades.)

[Kees Heiden]

I hollow grind at 25 degree, not quite to the edge. Then I go to the Sigma 1000 to raise a burr on the hollow grind. And then onto the Naniwa ss 8000, slightly higher, 30 degree or so. And yes maybe I stay too long on the fine stone.

Fresh from the grinder sharpening is very quick, but with every rehone it becomes slower and slower. So I go to the grinder way too often.

I think I am going to try both for a while and see what fits me best. So keeping the honing bevel really tiny, and not using a sec. bevel at all.

[David Weaver]

You probably go to the grinder like I do. I never wait for the hollow to fill the whole way in, because it causes you to waste too much time on the stones. Plus, if you go to the grinder every third or fourth hone with only a little bit of metal to grind off, you never have a heat issue. I don't keep water at my bench and everything I grind I can pull across my palm to cool afterwards (water would never boil on the edge). Saves a lot of time and screwing around.

[Charlie Stanford]

I think I'm going to try honing for a while without raising. The secondairy honing bevel always means more time in the next sharpening on the coarser stone until you reach the edge. I am feeling now that the time saved with the secondairy bevel is more then offset inthe next sharpening session.

Click the cutter down to the stone and hone I say. It rarely takes me more than one minute to hone a dull cutter. All this stuff about 'fast cutting stones' and 'lifting so as to hone a tiny portion to save steel and time' I have found by to be a nonstarter. To give waterstones their due, they would be even faster so maybe 30 seconds vs. a minute. Big deal. I have a minute to hone a cutter. I usually hone and then push some shavings around on the floor with my foot when I'm done in order to just to stand up straight and stretch my spine the other way for a bit.

All I can tell you is that I produce what I consider to be sharp, reliable, and predictable edges with a minimum of fuss and a minimum of kit. And as I acknowledged in an earlier post I am fully aware that this is quaint, at least by honing guru standards. I am not a honing guru. I am not a steel guru. I am not a honing stone guru.

[David Weaver]

Nothing honing guru about it, charlie. Nobody can ever figure out what charlie is talking. One day, it's that everyone spends too much time sharpening and you're done in seconds. The next day, if someone has a method that makes faster and sharper, it's a nonstarter.

And the next day you're claiming that lie nielsen makes irons that are impossible to hone. It's exceedingly rare that you can make a post without trying to put down something someone else said. Nearly never. No surprise.

[Harold Burrell]

You probably go to the grinder like I do. I never wait for the hollow to fill the whole way in, because it causes you to waste too much time on the stones. Plus, if you go to the grinder every third or fourth hone with only a little bit of metal to grind off, you never have a heat issue. I don't keep water at my bench and everything I grind I can pull across my palm to cool afterwards (water would never boil on the edge). Saves a lot of time and screwing around.

I agree (for what my opinion is worth...).


Nothing honing guru about it, charlie. Nobody can ever figure out what charlie is talking. One day, it's that everyone spends too much time sharpening and you're done in seconds. The next day, if someone has a method that makes faster and sharper, it's a nonstarter.

And the next day you're claiming that lie nielsen makes irons that are impossible to hone. It's exceedingly rare that you can make a post without trying to put down something someone else said. Nearly never. No surprise.

I agree with this too...

:cool:

[Charlie Stanford]

Nothing honing guru about it, charlie. Nobody can ever figure out what charlie is talking. One day, it's that everyone spends too much time sharpening and you're done in seconds. The next day, if someone has a method that makes faster and sharper, it's a nonstarter.

And the next day you're claiming that lie nielsen makes irons that are impossible to hone. It's exceedingly rare that you can make a post without trying to put down something someone else said. Nearly never. No surprise.

I see no value in routinely lifting a hollow ground chisel or hollow ground plane iron off the stone in order to hone a microbevel or whatever it is supposed to be called. I don't think it makes an edge sharper. I don't think it saves time. I don't think it does much of anything really. It seems to defeat the purpose of the self-jigging nature of the hollow grind itself.

[David Weaver]

It's quite valuable on narrow irons. It's also quite valuable on irons that are a bit too hard or tough for a finish stone. And if your grind is below 30 degrees and you finish with a smoothing plane (no sanding, scraping, etc - and I know I am not the only person who does that as I've seen warren mention doing that for paying work on a regular basis), it's extremely useful to allow you to do it without leaving tooling marks from nicking, etc.

If it is an issue where a lage microbevel is ground on a tool that's otherwise easily honed on a stone, I agree, it's not necessary.

I would be willing to bet that it's not uncommon, though I don't follow other people around regarding what they do in their shops so I haven't exactly compared notes with many people. I am pretty sure I have seen the term "lifting the handle" before, though, just as I have seen some extremely good craftsmen describe lifting the back of an iron slightly to ensure that the very edge of an iron has been worked on the back.

I have played with just about everything, perhaps you're offended with my ability to elaborate on that or you're offended about how other people spend their time in their shops and elaborate on it (which....well, that's really beyond my comprehension...really). I haven't really ever found one method that is so much better than another so as to make a blanket statement there is no benefit one way or another, with the exception being methods that use some huge number of stones in a progression or some very expensive sharpening contraption that's got all kinds of bits and pieces to replace reliance on hands, eyes and sense.

[Charlie Stanford]

It's quite valuable on narrow irons. It's also quite valuable on irons that are a bit too hard or tough for a finish stone. And if your grind is below 30 degrees and you finish with a smoothing plane (no sanding, scraping, etc - and I know I am not the only person who does that as I've seen warren mention doing that for paying work on a regular basis), it's extremely useful to allow you to do it without leaving tooling marks from nicking, etc.

If it is an issue where a lage microbevel is ground on a tool that's otherwise easily honed on a stone, I agree, it's not necessary.

I would be willing to bet that it's not uncommon, though I don't follow other people around regarding what they do in their shops so I haven't exactly compared notes with many people. I am pretty sure I have seen the term "lifting the handle" before, though, just as I have seen some extremely good craftsmen describe lifting the back of an iron slightly to ensure that the very edge of an iron has been worked on the back.

I have played with just about everything, perhaps you're offended with my ability to elaborate on that or you're offended about how other people spend their time in their shops and elaborate on it (which....well, that's really beyond my comprehension...really). I haven't really ever found one method that is so much better than another so as to make a blanket statement there is no benefit one way or another, with the exception being methods that use some huge number of stones in a progression or some very expensive sharpening contraption that's got all kinds of bits and pieces to replace reliance on hands, eyes and sense.

All I am relaying to the forum in my series of posts in this thread is my own experience - the methodologies I have settled into. As I said earlier, I'm no guru on these things. I freely admit it.

[george wilson]

Trained eyes and hands are the best tools. Unfortunately,some choose to rely on all kinds of jigs which didn't even exist during my young years. If folks would just learn to sharpen freehand,they would be better off.

[Charlie Stanford]

I'm mostly a jig user -- the hollow grind is the best jig there is. When I hone I end up with a polished line at the cutting edge and on the heel of the bevel. As these start to grow larger I refresh the hollow grind to maintain its usefulness a jig with which to register the implement being honed to the stone being used. For me, simple as that. When I grind I don't shorten the cutter. I'm purely putting in a hollow for registration purposes on the stone. Honing is very rapid with only two small areas touching - edge and heel. It is also reliable and repeatable because of the click and feel of the tool registering on the oilstone.

[David Weaver]

Unless someone provides self definition, I don't think there's a guru, and I've never seen anyone outside the razor community who has described themselves as a sharpening expert or guru (and it's particularly spurious there, because people get paid to do something everyone should be able to do on their own). It either works or it doesn't. It's fundamental and simple.

[Harold Burrell]

...some choose to rely on all kinds of jigs which didn't even exist during my young years...

George...steel didn't even exist during your young years. ;)

[Stanley Covington]

Trained eyes and hands are the best tools. If folks would just learn to sharpen freehand,they would be better off.

Volumes of wisdom concentrated in a few words. But so few will heed them....

[dan sherman]

Now i remember why I stopped coming to SMC for a while, way to many arrogant, grumpy old men around here. I swear some of you guys seem to go looking for reasons to jump on someone and put them down. If you don't use this method your unskilled, those are all gimmicks, when I was younger blah blah blah....

[Shaun Mahood]

I pretty much use my jig to figure out what I am doing (and trying to understand sharpness), then move to freehand sharpening and try to replicate it. For a little while my freehand sharpening was coming out better than my previous jig sharpening, but I lost it over the winter and am going back to the jig to relearn.

Also, I keep coming back here because some of the grumpy old men have the experience and knowledge to correct some of the misunderstandings I've picked up from other people and my own ignorance. My vote is to keep up the meaningful discussions as I have learned a lot from them.

[Harold Burrell]

Now i remember why I stopped coming to SMC for a while, way to many arrogant, grumpy old men around here. I swear some of you guys seem to go looking for reasons to jump on someone and put them down. If you don't use this method your unskilled, those are all gimmicks, when I was younger blah blah blah....

You know, it is alright for "old men" to have opinions...that may differ from yours. I, for one, appreciate the opinions of the guys that have been around.

Besides, unless I misread it...your post sounded a tad like it came from a grumpy young man. :)

Just sayin'...

[Chris Griggs]

The lift was recommended by Stanley (tools not Covington :)) in guides to honing that came with their tools.

And lets not forget that ALF introduced it to many a modern newb with the timeless classic "bird chirp video" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8CPbZg8PGo)

I often skip it for the repeatability reasons Charlie mentions, and when I do use it its usually just to get a final super fine polish at the tip...more of insurance than anything else.

I do, however, in 2 cases, do like what is shown in the video and do the whole honing process lifted up off the hollow.

1. On my 5 and 6 blades that have more camber it is easier to follow the arc by just honing the front edge than following the arc across the hollow. It also allows me to adjust the camber on the first stone in a way that is less easy than if I hone on the primary.

2. If I have a bit of extra wear or fine chipping on the front edge and for whatever reason don't feel like walking over to the grinder.

[george wilson]

Sorry if you don't like my truthful advice,dan. Maybe you could profit from it if you would not dismiss it. Yes,there are many gimmicks designed to help you part with your money. Do you think any competent craftsman 100 years ago would have had to use those crutches? Saws weren't even supplied sharpened in the 18th.C.,nor were chisels and carving tools sold sharpened or with handles. Indeed,they were sold blunt ended from the forge. You were expected to learn the basic skills to maintain your tools.

Whether or not you appreciate it,I am a very accomplished craftsman and it would be wise to heed my words,and David's,and Charlie's too and a long list of others,even if their advice is sometimes different. There's more than 1 way to get a tool sharp. I think having a small secondary bevel's chief advantage is that you don't have to sharpen the whole bevel every time. It saves some extra effort. In the case of easily worn water stones,it saves them,too.

The ONLY 19th.C. sharpening jigs I am aware of,after 39 years as a master craftsman in Williamsburg,and woodworking seriously gotten into in 1952 are the devices for sharpening engraving tools and the cutters for Holtzappfel type decorative turning lathes,where the exact cutting angles was a lot more critical.

Actually,I never said that you were not skillful if you used jigs. I said it was easier to sharpen if you learned to use your hands and eyes.

[george wilson]

Rather than ignoring the advice and practices of those "old men",when I was young(you know,we are ALL young once,use it well),I hung around them when I was lucky enough to get time with them,and soaked up information like a sponge. I still do. It certainly helped me get somewhere,rather than wandering along in my own ignorance forever. I felt great loss as they died off.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks....a friendly reminder.............keep it civil!

[george wilson]

My posts were not intended to be uncivil. Why don't you edit the "arrogant old grumpy men","when I was young,blah,blah,blah..." post that caused the response? If that was not uncivil,I don't understand. I only gave truthful advice. Somehow my response to being called that was less civil than his post?

All my life I have sought out experienced old men and learned much from them.

[dan sherman]

You know, it is alright for "old men" to have opinions...that may differ from yours. I, for one, appreciate the opinions of the guys that have been around.


I have no problem at all with opinions, I have a real problem with the this is the best way, or I'm right because I have been around attitude.




Do you think any competent craftsman 100 years ago would have had to use those crutches?

If they where anything like my great grandfather they did. He was a cabinet maker by trade, with a wife and 11 children to feed. From what my father has told me, he used all kinds of tricks and what people would today call unsafe methods to finish a project. His goal was to finish the project as fast and as cheaply as possible within the constraints of quality set by his clients, and the tools he had at his disposal.



Actually,I never said that you were not skillful if you used jigs.

I didn't say you said I was. I was referring to your general stance on the subject matter. As a side note, i can free hand sharpen a blade just fine.



I said it was easier to sharpen if you learned to use your hands and eyes.

I would argue this point of view has a caveat, it assumes the person doing the sharpening is hollow grinding, and has stones.

If you look around, a lot of people starting out don't have a grinder, stones, or the cash to buy them. I think this is why scary sharp is so popular with beginners, it gives them a way to sharpen on the cheap. I have a friend going through this very thing right now. He has my old #103 (pretty sure it was a type 2) and an old guide I gave him, and an off cut of granite countertop he got for fee, because that's all he could afford.


Rather than ignoring the advice and practices of those "old men",when I was young(you know,we are ALL young once,use it well),I hung around them when I was lucky enough to get time with them,and soaked up information like a sponge. I still do. It certainly helped me get somewhere,rather than wandering along in my own ignorance forever. I felt great loss as they died off.

The people who have taught me over the years, would always show me what method they used, and then explain other methods that could be used to accomplish the same task. they always tried to impart as much information as possible and left me decide what method i wanted to use.

[Shaun Mahood]

If you look around, a lot of people starting out don't have a grinder, stones, or the cash to buy them. I think this is why scary sharp is so popular with beginners, it gives them a way to sharpen on the cheap. I have a friend going through this very thing right now. He has my old #103 (pretty sure it was a type 2) and an old guide I gave him, and an off cut of granite countertop he got for fee, because that's all he could afford.

If I had bought the exact things recommended by people on this forum for sharpening and learned to freehand with a hollow grind right from the start I would have saved hundreds of dollars over the last couple of years. I tried to cheap out but spent more money on the first 6 months of scary sharp than I would have otherwise.

My honing guide cost more than my grinder.

[David Weaver]

My honing guide cost more than my grinder.

That right there would make a great spoof signature :) It could be made into a bumper sticker if the last "my" was changed to "your". :)

[george wilson]

Dan,you do not know me. I was VERY poor all the time I was growing up. I had no grinder,and only a 50 cent chisel,a gray hardware stone and a block plane to work with. I had to go to a neighbor to borrow a 1/4" electric drill. I was making guitars in the bare bones garage with these things. I had to learn to sharpen without jigs. I never knew of any,and had no money to buy such. It was the hard way to learn,but I did learn,and especially when I came across some older person I could glean knowledge from.