A Little Electrical Question...................

[Corey Hallagan]

As I posted before I am going to have to have some new electrical in my garage shop. I have a 15 amp fuse panel now. I would like to have a new subpanel ( i guess that is what it is called) and have 2 - 20 amps breakers that I can for the shop, one for the soon to be dishwasher in the kitchen remodel and one left open for future use. Is what I am saying doable and can anyone give me an idea what something like this would cost for the installation of the new panel and at least 2 20 amp breakers if not 4 ? The panel is in the garage, it can come straight out of the panel and run straight down the wall for my outlets. I really know nothing about this and am totally ignorant when it comes to wiring.
Thanks as usual guys.
Corey

[Tim Morton]

Having dealt with electricians alot over the past couple years...close your eyes and think of a number that you THINK it might cost....then TRIPLE it and you might be close to what the quote will come out to. Here is a partial link to a great electrical forum....always good to get as many eyes on your question as possible when it comes to real money. I think you are under estimating your future uses. I think you should plan for a 100amp sub panel, and depending on where your main service is, and how much labor is involved, plan on spending 700 and up. Sorry.....but its best to plan for the future.....add http: to the following link...
//ths.gardenweb.com/forums/wiring/

[John Hart]

My first question is, Do you have a friend that can help you out? This type of thing is fairly inexpensive to do yourself but can get pricey to have an electrician do it. 'Course then, there's a lot of expertise here on the Creek....A few pictures here...a few questions there...and you're done. Just keep to the codes...and I think your new panel will work fine.

...Oh...I guess Tim and I were answering at the same time.... Yeah...what Tim said!:)

[Corey Hallagan]

Thanks Tim.... you scaring me man! LOL. When you say 100 amp, you mean 5 20amp breakers? The panel is actually in the garage, just feet from the main run I want. Since I have fuses in the one panel, are breakers possible in the subpanel? I told you i don't know jack about this. My sons buddy is coming over one of these nights to look at it, he does stuff on the side and is an electrical jouneyman. I want to be half way inteligent about it, I guess I can talk tools, let him talk electrical :) Thanks again Tim.

Corey

[Tim Morton]

Thanks Tim.... you scaring me man! LOL. When you say 100 amp, you mean 5 20amp breakers? The panel is actually in the garage, just feet from the main run I want. Since I have fuses in the one panel, are breakers possible in the subpanel? I told you i don't know jack about this. My sons buddy is coming over one of these nights to look at it, he does stuff on the side and is an electrical jouneyman. I want to be half way inteligent about it, I guess I can talk tools, let him talk electrical :) Thanks again Tim.

Corey
Is the panel in your garage the main service panel to your whole house? Either way that is a good thing. I thought you might need to bring a sub panel into the garage. How many unused slots do you have in this panel? If you have a bunch, say 8 or more then you won't need to add a sub panel...you just need to add a breaker and run some wire...so if you can't find a friend , then you might be down to about 300ish to get an electrician out for a few hours. Just think about all the possible future tool uses and plan accordingly. You will need a 220c outlet for a dust collector, and another one for a jointer...and maybe 2 or 3 20 amp circuits. Keep in mind that 220 v circuits require 2 spaces on the box...might be good to take a picture and post it for us to see:D (everyone loves to look at pictures)

[Corey Hallagan]

Tim, yes it is in the garage and that baby is full. No empty slots, I filled the empty ones when I finished off the basement. So I will need a sub panel anyway but don't have to go to far.
Thanks for the info,
Corey

[Steve Roxberg]

Thanks Tim.... you scaring me man! LOL. When you say 100 amp, you mean 5 20amp breakers? The panel is actually in the garage, just feet from the main run I want. Since I have fuses in the one panel, are breakers possible in the subpanel? I told you i don't know jack about this. My sons buddy is coming over one of these nights to look at it, he does stuff on the side and is an electrical jouneyman. I want to be half way inteligent about it, I guess I can talk tools, let him talk electrical :) Thanks again Tim.

Corey

If your old panel has fuses and not breakers, how about replacing it with a larger one?

[Corey Hallagan]

Thanks Steve, it has 12 fuses each side now and is full. Do they make a larger breaker box than that and can I do this without replacing all the wiring in the house? Even if I have to put a sub panel in, I wouldn't mind having all in breakers if it can be done without rewiring the house, I know I can't afford that right now.

Corey

[Richard Blaine]

If it were me, and the main panel was full, I'd run a 100-125amp breaker out of the main to a sub panel, move a couple of circuits from the main to the sub panel(remember we had to make room for the 100 amp breaker,) and then run the rest of the shop from the sub. Also, I'd go with a Square D QO sub panel. They're a little more money, but the bus bars are copper.

I wouldn't attempt this as my first electrical job without guidance from someone who could actually visit the site.

[Bill Lewis]

Corey, I'm a little confused. Is your main panel that feeds the house a fused panel without circuit breakers?

If so, before I would even consider adding any circuits to that panel using a sub panel. I would replace the main panel entirely. This is commonly referred to as a "heavy-up". It may also require running a new feed line from the pole to the house. The bare minimum you want to install to replace the panel would be a 200 amp main panel. This will require using an electrician, and though the cost varies from area to area, I'd expect to pay at least $1000 for this job.

[Tim Morton]

Thanks Steve, it has 12 fuses each side now and is full. Do they make a larger breaker box than that and can I do this without replacing all the wiring in the house? Even if I have to put a sub panel in, I wouldn't mind having all in breakers if it can be done without rewiring the house, I know I can't afford that right now.

Corey

This does not sound good...I don't know how you wil be able to add a sub panel to an old style fuse box. Especially one that is full. I hate yo scare you corey..but you need to get an electrician out to hear what he thinks. I would bet its going to involve bring "new" service out to the garage. How old is the fuse panel and wiring in the house? I'm guessing they will want to make the exsisitng box the "sub, and wire in thw new box with 200 amp service. I just hope that you have room to do that and stay within code.

[John Hart]

Corey,

Is your Garage attached to the house or is it separate? I'm with Steve on this...Get rid of the Fuse Panel and replace it with a breaker panel. You don't have to rewire the house to do that. You will have to kill the main power feed though. Wiring up a new panel ain't rocket science...just supply a breaker every place there's an existing fuse....match up your amp ratings. Just get a breaker panel with lots of extra spaces for your new power feeds to the shop...and then some. Then you won't need a subpanel....It'll be a nice upgrade to the house and won't cost much.

I would think your son's buddy would be able to help on this....less than an hour of his time...you do the rest.

[Tim Morton]

Corey,

Is your Garage attached to the house or is it separate? I'm with Steve on this...Get rid of the Fuse Panel and replace it with a breaker panel. You don't have to rewire the house to do that. You will have to kill the main power feed though. Wiring up a new panel ain't rocket science...just supply a breaker every place there's an existing fuse....match up your amp ratings. Just get a breaker panel with lots of extra spaces for your new power feeds to the shop...and then some. Then you won't need a subpanel....It'll be a nice upgrade to the house and won't cost much.

I would think your son's buddy would be able to help on this....less than an hour of his time...you do the rest.

While I like your idea John, and you are right it would be best to replace the exsisting fuse panel with an upgraded panel, i think this would be a job best left to a professional. Not to knock Corey, but he has told us he doesn't even know what a sub panel is, and now you think he is ready to change out a complete panel?:D

I vote for John's idea..but get a pro in to do it.

[John Hart]

Yep....I agree Tim. I was just trying to think of the things that Corey could do to minimize the expense. If he did the installation of the box and then had someone move the main feeds over to the new box, he could do the transfer of wiring himself (especially if he has a journeyman there for advice). Heck, if he labeled all the existing wires with location and amp rating in advance, they could put the new box in the same location as the old fuse box. This would at least minimize the time of the electrician I think. But Corey, if you're nervous about it...that's not a good time to play with electricity...it has sharp teeth! :eek:

[Rob Russell]

OK, let me see if I can summarize the thread - Corey et al please verify my accuracy.


Corey's service equipment (the "main panel") is in the garage.
It's a fuse box and is full.
We don't know what the service to the house is (100 amp or 200 amp).
Corey needs more circuits.
Corey hasn't done much electrical work before.


Given the above, I would:

Hire a licensed electrician
Replace the existing fuse box with a new circuit breaker panelboard that's capable of handling 200 amps. You can get up to 42 circuits in 1 panelboard.


Some general comments:
The current rating of a panelboard (125 amps, 250 amps, etc) refers to the total load that can be pulled through the panelboard. That's totally independent of the breakers that you put in the panel. If I add up the face value of all the breakers in our main panel + the 2 subpanels + the phase convertor, I'm way over 200 amps. The fact is that we never run all the stuff at the same time and most individual circuits aren't being loaded anywhere near their capacity.
Swapping the panel may mean that you need to upgrade your Grounding Electrode System. The current National Electric Code requires attachment to something like a pair of ground rods driven in or rebar tied into the foundation footing or a 20' wire buried as an electrode.
Swapping a panel is a job for a pro. I consider myself to more experienced than many homeowners (wired the 1000 sq ft addition to our house myself, including subpanels, etc.) and I hired a pro for our panel upgrade. There are a few reasons to hire a pro for such a job: Speed - they will get it done in a day and I know it would have taken me at least twice that to do it.
Current code knowledge - they are much more likely to be aware of new requirements (like the Grounding Electrode system I mentioned earlier).
Inspections - for a panel upgrade the power company will disconnect power to your house. You want that period of time to be as short as possible (see point number 1) and you want someone dealing with all "that stuff" who has been through it before. Ditto the building inspector and you do want a permit pulled and you do want the work inspected.

Just my opinions. Rob

[David Fried]

Swapping a panel is a job for a pro. I consider myself to more experienced than many homeowners (wired the 1000 sq ft addition to our house myself, including subpanels, etc.) and I hired a pro for our panel upgrade.

I'll second Rob's sentiments. I too rewired my house. When the electric company was out I asked how I to get the power killed so I could upgrade the box to 200 amp service. They told me they don't kill the power, professionals do it with the power on ! Yup, THAT'S a job for a professional.

[Rob Russell]

We didn't have a choice about killing power. We needed to replace our meter pan because we upgraded from 100 to 20 amp service.

I'll bet you find a lot of pros who want the LoPoCo to pull the meter for a panel swap. Gutsy doesn't always mean smart. I'd rather have a smart, live electrician working on a panel swap than a dead gutsy one.

All it takes is one goof with those 2 hot conductors and you've got a lot more than 100 or 200 amps of juice flowing. The main breaker in your service panel is what limits the current flow through the utilities conductors. With out that breaker, you're looking at whatever current flow the meter can withstand and, for the short burst it would take to fry someone or create a nasty arc flash, that meter's gonna support a lot more than 200 amps.

[Jim Becker]

My electrician who did my major upgrades had no issue with both pulling the meter out physically as well as replacing the connections to the live overhead from the street to the new meter box, et al. As much as I am comfortable with doing electrical work, I will always pay the pro to do the major stuff...they are much more aware of so many things than I am.

Cory, I'm with Rob. You need a pro to update your home's electrical service and panel. That shouldn't require re-wiring your house internally...it didn't here and I have EVERY generation of wire in this house other than knob and tube!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Corey......I've got 37 years of experience in some pretty heavy electronics....radars, uhf, vhf, lf transmitters and receivers, x-ray equipments, CT scanners, MR scanners, nuclear medicine scanners and on and on. I installed the 200 amp electrical service to my new shop including the sevice panel, meter box and weather head and I did the internal wiring all to code. While I am knowledgeable about electronics, I'm not an electrician. I am lucky in that the local city electrical inspector is a pretty easy going guy and was happy to answer my many questions. At one point he very wittingly asked if he needed to put my home phone and cell phone numbers on his speed dialer at work. Based on your posts here I'd recommend that you consider replacing your "fuse boxes" with breaker panels and hire a pro electrician to do it. It'll go quicker and you'll sleep better at nights! You could save some money doing it yourself but it'd be too easy to make one little mistake and cause a future electrical fire. When doing such a complicated job you will inevitably run into to something unexpected. A good qualified professional electrician will know what to do and correct the situation immediately whereas a DIYer like myself or others might have to wait until the next day to get the answer and then spend time getting the right parts and doing the job. JMHO. Good luck!

[Rob Russell]

[QUOTE=Jim Becker]My electrician who did my major upgrades had no issue with both pulling the meter out physically as well as replacing the connections to the live overhead from the street to the new meter box, et al. QUOTE]

Different LoPoCo's, different rules.

In our area, an electrician may be able to pull a meter in an emergency (not 100% sure), but the LoPoCo is definitely supposed to reenergize the service. At our house, the service laterals (conductors that run from our meter to where they connect to the power grid) are buried and are considered the LoPoCo's responsibility.

Around here you need to get a CRS Number - Cut and Restore Service - for things like that.

[Jim Becker]

LOL! After two years, the utility still hasn't come by to replace the seals on the meter...nor have they been willing to replace the overhead cables to the street with something, umm...more substantial...to match what is effectively 400 amp service now. I suspect when we put on the planned addition, they will have to deal with it finally as another HVAC system will kick things up a notch... But they are quite efficient at sending out the bill each month. ;)

[Bill Lewis]

Jim, what makes you think they'll do anything about your line feed after you add more load? Sure, you have to get permits and all that from the county, but if your area is anything like mine, the county and the power company don't talk to one another on these matters.

Actually overhead wire feeds aren't as big of a problem as below ground feeds. It's a cooling issue, so you may be ok with what you have.

[Corey Hallagan]

I definitely won't be doing it myself nor do I have a buddy who does electrical work. My sons buddy will look at it as he is an electrician but I am prepared to just replace the whole panel and put it all in breakers (something we have wanted to do for a while) and add the necessary additional lines needed. Thanks for everyones input here. You guys are great for bouncing stuff off of. Will let you know how it turns out.

Corey

[Corey Hallagan]

Rob, you are correct, fuse panel is in the garage, it is full with a total of 24 circuits. The one panel with all the required circuits makes sense. That all seems to be the route we should go. Will let you know how i come out.

Corey

[Jim Becker]

Jim, what makes you think they'll do anything about your line feed after you add more load? Sure, you have to get permits and all that from the county, but if your area is anything like mine, the county and the power company don't talk to one another on these matters.

My township does not require permits for electrical (just independent inspections)...but you do need to present your first born child and offer several appendages if you want to even think about anything plumbing! The issue with the power company is that they don't want to do the work, plain and simple. The wire is old and undersized, even for 200 amp service according to my electrician. They called three times and I called twice. We both gave up. Fortunately, we don't draw that much normally, but that could change in the future. And this after I pay them between $200 and $550 a month for electric and gas, depending on the month of the year.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim...it's amazing how different power companies have different attitudes. The local power company supervisor and the guy who performed the hookup to meter on my new shop told me if....I get blinking lights in the house after I start using my new shop and equipment...give them a call and they'll replace the run to the house from the pole. Currently the incoming power comes to the weather head at the house and is paralleled to the weather head at the shop.

[Jim Becker]

Jim...it's amazing how different power companies have different attitudes.

Yea, ain't that so. You would be amazed at what I went through to get them to come out a few years ago and tighten up the lines since they were dipping to only about 8' off the ground along our driveway in such a way that a larger delivery truck could hit them. They still have some rope up over the road tying the power, cable and phone lines together to allow for "big loads" on the road...and another piece of nylon roap that uses our big ash tree at the base of the drive as further support for the line. For years now.