Going Pro

[Brian Ashton]

I started a thread asking the question as to whether those making a real living off of woodwork were self taught or had taken an intensive course before hand... I think I called it: A question for the pros

The question came about from what I've seen from a few decades in woodwork so the results weren't surprising but I wanted to see if my observations had any merit...

To start with I make a distinction between furniture making and the traditional trade name of cabinet maker. I've been both and in todays world a cabinet maker is for the most part someone that builds particle board boxes and slaps mass produced style and rail doors on the front. Furniture maker is someone that has to work almost exclusively with solid wood and has to during the process employ a reasonable amount of hand tools (other than a drill, RO sander...). Yes their are exceptions to this - there's always exceptions to everything except the laws of physics. But! apparently there's exceptions to those as well.

You see a great deal of courses offered, most at pretty rich prices with real lavish descriptions, that promise to give budding woodworkers the "tools" necessary to open their own shop or work for some other high end out fit. But the reality is the vast majority of people making any sort of reasonable living at woodwork are self taught. And the irony of many of those setting up these programs is the path they're espousing isn't how they got their start but for some reason they say it's a necessity...

Over the years I've been approached by many asking advice on such things for themselves and their kids and I tell them the same thing. Don't waste money on a course. If you're interested take that money and then go out and buy some tools and get started. What you make is less important than simply getting on with playing and discovering - start simple. Buy a cheap block plane, a stone and a stick of pine and make a garden peg, that's what I did way back when I was 12... It has little to do with your initial skill but all to do with your interest and passion for the craft. It you truly have the passion it will fuel your interest which will drive you forward to discover and learn and ultimately increase your skill and knowledge. I think people also get too caught up in the tools they think they need. But if you're truly passionate you'll find a way to make even the cheapest block plane work for you (unless it's made in india - even worse than chinese made).

When I was younger (not that I'm all that old) I'd say to those who were asking how I'd gotten to where I was, I'D say it was through shear ignorance. That I was always too ignorant to know that I didn't have the skills to do what I was attempting to do. By the time I realised I was in, what I thought was, way to deep it was too late and I needed to keep going forward and finish the project... That's passion, overcoming my short comings and driving me to put aside my insecurity and to challenge myself... When I look back on the end result of some of those projects they were down right awful, but they were invaluable lessons.

We seem to have entered an age where you need a course for everything now - I think it's a sad direction.

Anyways off the soap box now.

[Jim Ritter]

Brian I'm with you. I couldn't figure out how to answer your poll because I don't build furniture. I build and repair boats, wooden boats or the wood work on boats. I don't do anything for houses. I've been in business for now 26 years. Back in 1977 I stumbled along to build a cedar strip canoe. There was very little information out there, nothing like today. I had some woodworking in high school, but this was nothing like that. After a year I sold that boat and used the money to buy more tools and wood to build the second boat, determined to build it better than the first one. I sold the second boat after using it for a year. And my wfe and I talked about me going to one of the two boatbuilding schools to learn more, but came to the conlusion that I would continue with my surveying/engineering work and and keep the boats as more of a hobby. But I dove in big time, I devoured any book I could find, any opportunity to visit a boatshop I did. It was like breathing for me, I had to do it. I measured any old small boat I could find and drew plans for them. I eventually worked for a boatyard before starting my own business. I had learned a lot a log the way. Mostly about business. Ten years after I built my first boat I opened my own shop and that has been my sole source of income since. There have been lean times for sure, but I've got a nice clientel and don't actively look for the next job. Lately I've been turning down more jobs than I accept because I don't have time to do them. I use a lot of different hand tools but need the power tools to be profitable. The band saw in particular, still own and use the one I bought back in 1977. But a lot of the work needs to be shaped with hand tools. For me it was the self motivation that fueled my pursuit of the skills needed. Looking back I would not have changed a thing.
Jim

[Steve Voigt]

I didn't answer your poll because I'm no longer a pro, and when I was, I wasn't very good at the money-making part. But I did make a living for a few years as a cabinet maker/ furniture maker. I was mostly self-taught, but I picked up some valuable experience working for another cabinet maker for a while, and from experience in other trades (machining, construction). So…a couple thoughts.
First, I don't agree with the sharp distinction you make between cabinet makers and furniture makers. Plenty of cabinet makers do great, high-end work that uses high-quality materials and is not slapped together at all. Lots of terrific small-shop furniture makers don't use hand tools at all. And some custom furniture is total junk. More importantly, I think the line between the two professions is much more fluid than you suggest. When you're starting out, you take what you can get. I wanted to build furniture, but when I was offered cabinet work, I took it, and my best cabinet gigs were way more interesting and creative than my worst furniture gigs. I think for most, it takes a long time before you can afford to be selective about what work you'll take.
As far as courses are concerned, I'm not sure what courses you're talking about. If it's people like Chris Schwarz, those courses are clearly aimed at well-heeled amateurs. I'm sure Chris has never claimed that anyone will make a dime from learning to make dovetails; he's just trying to teach the skill. I have neither the time nor the money for those courses, but if I did, I had happily take one. It'd be a fun way to meet some people, probably learn a few things, and have a good time. I don't see a single thing wrong with it.
If you're talking about North Bennett or College of the Redwoods, maybe it's true that some people have unrealistic expectations about what their job prospects are. But I think part of the deal with those places is making connections and networking, much like if you went to business school. Certainly, a lot of people who come out of those places make a living, though I don't know what the percentages are.
My advice: If you don't like courses, don't take one. I haven't. But I think it's great that people can go to College of the Redwoods instead of going to a University. I think it's great that amateurs with money can take skills classes. I just don't see the problem.

[Charlie Stanford]

Ask this question of a British woodworking forum and I'll bet you'll find that most identifying as professional woodworkers went through a formal program. Saying that going through a formal course of instruction is a 'sad direction' is silly. Obviously, the little one-off courses offered on an a la carte basis are far from a formal course of intense, focused professional instruction so you may have a point if speaking only about them. By definition they are not cohesive and only offer snippets that may or may not in the end do all that much to advance one's overall skills.

[george wilson]

I wish I'd had a course when I was young. There were hardly any individuals making guitars,and no books on the subject in the early 1950's. It'd saved me years of trying to figure out how to make guitars had I had access to a good course. I can show someone in a short time things that took me a LONG time to figure out on my own. I didn't even have an idea how sides were bent around a hot iron when I started. I bent them fully wet,and had wrinkled,unusable sides when they dried.

I don't mean an afternoon spent learning to cut dovetails,either. We had 2 week courses at Penland,where I taught in 1968-69. You could learn something in that length of time if you worked night and day.

[David Weaver]

But if you're truly passionate you'll find a way to make even the cheapest block plane work for you.


This could turn into a story about george!

I agree about the classes. It's one thing for someone who shows extreme interest at an early age, and competence long before they'd ever get to school.

It's entirely another for folks with no design sense and little ability to enroll in comprehensive courses, or one-offs that are designed to supplement the income of instructor.

Aside from george, the three most successful individuals that I know did not go through any woodworking courses. Two are amish cabinetmakers, and the third went to school for industrial design and turned his design sense into compensation. The amish guys started VERY early, and learned their trade on the job. I don't know i that's really possible in a non-amish setting these days.

But, there is definitely a market for vacation classes, or retirement classes. As long as both sides feel like they're getting a good deal, then by all means.....they just aren't going to tell you that's the target market, because who wants to pretend to be billy big-rigger if they tell you in the brochure that you'll only be fit for power-wheels driving when you're done?

[Jeff Duncan]

I think David raises a good point.....even though one may not have paid for and taken a formal class, working under others is still learning from others as opposed to being self taught!

I'm the exception.....I make a living as a woodworker, am mostly self taught, build just about anything that needs to be built using any tools that need to be used! I build interior doors, (all solid wood), built-ins, (half and half), cabinets, furniture and all sorts of random stuff. I have a very well equipped shop and I reach for my block planes and chisels as often as I run stuff through my widebelt. My advice if anyone were to ask would be to take a course.....no....take multiple courses! That or work for someone else and learn all that you can! All being self taught gives you is a longer, harder, less rewarding learning curve to catch up to those who were trained! In other words, doing everything the hard way! Now if you prefer to beat your head against the wall, waste time and material, and generally go through the beginning of a career frustrated then self learning is the way to go. Otherwise if your smart and want to learn from those who've already made the mistakes....(wish I did!), take classes or work for someone else;)

Actually the more I think of it I working for someone else is probably the best way to go. Classes are good for the fundamental skills, but won't give you the overall experience of what happens in a pro shop. Deadlines, schedules, dealing with clients and vendors and on and on. If I could rewind the clock and start over I'd have worked under someone far longer and learned all that I could. Actually no, forget that, if I could rewind the clock I'd have spent more time in computer class and then invented some random app that I could sell for millions of dollars:D

good luck,
JeffD

[don wilwol]

I haven't made a living with lumber in close to 20 years, so I'm not sure if my opinion counts. I'm now in my second career in what I would be called self taught. But I agree there is a grey area between self taught and not. If you define self taught as "not taking any formal training" then I'm self taught. I'm not sure a self motivated person with a computer and internet can't get as much of an education as any classroom. If someone asked me if they should take classes to make a living as a woodworker my answer would be an emphatic yes. But the courses I'd recommend would be business, marketing and customer service, not woodworking. More good woodworkers who can't run a business fail at business than good business men who are not so good woodworkers do. I can say this here, my wife's not on this forum, but I doubt I could have made it almost 20 years in business and closed up in the black had she not run the business for me. I sure do like woodworking as a hobby.

[Everett Fulkerson]

I've never met anyone, running a functioning shop, who paid to attend a woodworking college. Classes yes, a degree in wood cutting no.

As an employer, I would rather hire help that has worked in a shop over help that has worked in a classroom. There is no class, that can replicate real world shop time. Good design cannot be taught either. Anyone thinking of "going pro" should work in a functioning shop, just to see what 40 to 60 hours of woodworking a week is really like. The romantic ideology of a craftsmen at a bench, doesn't last long.

I did meet a guy fresh out of woodworking school, tried to make a go at it. Told me he would be charging $50 an hour, just for his time at the lumber yard to hand select boards for his pieces. Does anyone here still think he is in business? Nope

I have been cutting wood, full time for a bit now. The biggest advantage I have over others shops is LACK OF DEBT and minimal overhead. These two things allow me to stay open through the inevitable dips in custom work.

My loving and supportive spouse is the other part of the equation.

Making a living in a craft is as much a lifestyle choice as it is a career choice. If done correctly, you can live a very rewarding and satisfying life. If you want to make lots of money, do something else.

Be Good
Rhett

[Brian Ashton]

I think for the most part it appears a few of the the points I was trying to make were not conveyed very clearly so let me clarify.

First the ultimate point was I think one of the most important factors to being a successful and hopefully profitable furniture maker is passion for the craft, as the poll showed and what I've observed over the 25 years in the trade in Canada and Aus intensive courses don't seem to be all that much of a factor, if at all, in the success of the individual.

Second to that I didn't include on the job training with course work because I don't believe they're related. On the job training is a given to any job...

Third intensive courses are 6 month or longer, cost a great deal and designed and sold with the intention of equipping the student with the basic skills and knowledge to get a leg up in the industry. It doesn't in anyway include weekend courses on dovetailing drawers and the likes.

The parting thought was inspired by what has been mentioned here by others. Other countries are now requiring (or pushing hard to require people to take such courses before they can be certified and eventually allowed to open their own business). I am a very accomplished woodworker in cabinet making, furniture making and woodturning. I am also a competent carver and I know how to run a business... I have never taken a course in my life and therefore would most likely not be allowed to open a business in such countries until I had jump though a lot of time consuming and expensive hoops - that to me is a sad direction to go in. How would the professionals furniture makers, cabinet makers, boat builders... across North America feel if they were required to prove their knowledge so as to qualify to open a business?


I wish I'd had a course when I was young. There were hardly any individuals making guitars,and no books on the subject in the early 1950's. It'd saved me years of trying to figure out how to make guitars had I had access to a good course. I can show someone in a short time things that took me a LONG time to figure out on my own. I didn't even have an idea how sides were bent around a hot iron when I started. I bent them fully wet,and had wrinkled,unusable sides when they dried.


But in a way what you've said supports what I've been trying to say - you persevered in spite of your lack of knowledge and became one of the best... Why?

[David Weaver]

How would the professionals furniture makers, cabinet makers, boat builders... across North America feel if they were required to prove their knowledge so as to qualify to open a business?


I would feel like someone already in the business lobbied and passed a worthless bill. People who can't compete LOVE protectionism or creating barriers to entry after they're in. So do people who would rather administer such a scheme (or maybe scam is more appropriate).

[John Coloccia]

I don't know how it is in other woodworking fields, but nearly everyone I know that builds guitars and related items did something else before they got into it. Many where engineers and scientists, actually. We're a strange bunch. I know of very few that actually set out to do this with their lives.

[george wilson]

Our master cabinet maker got mad and quit. After several years of not being able to sell his furniture for enough money,he came back to the museum. He just retired last week.

I think it is going to be VERY difficult to try to make and find customers for hand made furniture.

My wife has a home business making jewelry. She works night and day and weekends. She is lucky that I have money!!

[Jim Koepke]

The romantic ideology of a craftsmen at a bench, doesn't last long.

This phenomenon has dogged me throughout life. Trying to make a living out of the things I enjoyed removed the joys from the thing. Funny, that there was enjoyment derived from being a repair technician fixing things I didn't particularly enjoy.


How would the professionals furniture makers, cabinet makers, boat builders... across North America feel if they were required to prove their knowledge so as to qualify to open a business?

Here it is just a different proof that is required. The proof comes by keeping your business open and the family fed.

jtk

[Jeff Duncan]

Other countries are now requiring (or pushing hard to require people to take such courses before they can be certified and eventually allowed to open their own business). I am a very accomplished woodworker in cabinet making, furniture making and woodturning. I am also a competent carver and I know how to run a business... I have never taken a course in my life and therefore would most likely not be allowed to open a business in such countries until I had jump though a lot of time consuming and expensive hoops - that to me is a sad direction to go in. How would the professionals furniture makers, cabinet makers, boat builders... across North America feel if they were required to prove their knowledge so as to qualify to open a business?




Well.....actually this was the norm for centuries so certainly not a "new direction". In England and Europe in the old days you could never open your own shop without having fulfilled a full apprenticeship. American early on was a free for all, well actually still is:D Own a hammer, your a contractor! Own a table saw, your a cabinet maker! In actuality there's virtually nothing to impede a person to open their own shop. Which is for my industry one of the problems, if any clown with a hammer can open a shop how is the industry as a whole protected? Having talked with other shop owners there's a lot of them that would actually prefer it if there were some base level of competency required before one could put a sign out. Electricians, Plumbers, Architects, CPA's, Doctors, Lawyers etc. etc......plenty of professions already require you to prove your knowledge first. Personally I don't care all that much, I don't consider other small shops as competition and as I'm already an established business, I don't believe any new regs regarding starting a business would affect me;)

As far as persevering despite my lack of knowledge.....well that's easy, I'm stubborn and not knowledgeable enough to know better:D

good luck,
JeffD

[george wilson]

Jim,I couldn't agree with you more. Getting obligated to do the things you like REMOVES the joy!!! Been there,done that since the 1950's. Ain't doing it any more!!!:)

[Andrew Joiner]

How would the professionals furniture makers, cabinet makers, boat builders... across North America feel if they were required to prove their knowledge so as to qualify to open a business?





In some states you need to have a license to install cabinets. Oregon requires you to take a class and pay a substantial fee. If you own a cabinet shop and screw a bookcase or furniture to a wall you must be a licensed contractor. If you make freestanding furniture no license is needed.

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class but dropped out when I got a job in large woodworking shop. I learned a little in schools and more working for other shops. I learned the most when I had my own shop. The biggest lesson was build what is in demand,fast. Deliver the quality promised. Building to the quality promised is often not the best quality in my opinion,but getting paid comes first.
I was able to make a good living by doing all kinds of low class work. Tons of particle board store fixtures covered with plastic laminate left my shop. I loved getting paid well for low prestige jobs. Sometimes I'd get a job that was fine furniture but per hour it was often less profitable.

I agree passion for the craft is important. Passion for a profit is WAY more important if you want to keep a business going.

[Roy Harding]

I was a hobbiest all my life. Learned a lot from various "old guys" in various neighbourhoods around the country (now, I'm told, I'm one of the "old guys" that people learn from!)

After I retired from the military (after 25 years service), I took all four years cabinetmaker apprentice courses at a technical college (in one year). It is important to note that I did NOT apprentice to anyone - I just took the courses. The normal way of doing this is to apprentice, then take four to 10 weeks of instruction a year at the college - do this for four years, get your hours, and you're a journeyman.

So - although I took all the courses, I'm not a qualified journeyman. I learned a LOT in those courses. I was exposed to methods and types of building that I'll never be exposed to again. I learned about faster and more efficient production methods - I learned a LOT about wood - how it grows, why it moves, etcetera. It made me a better woodworker.

I now make my living building custom furniture and presentation type boxes (the boxes actually provide a more reliable revenue stream) in my little one man shop. It's a good life - but I wouldn't be able to do it if I didn't have my military pension to keeps things afloat, financially speaking.

[Steve Voigt]

This phenomenon has dogged me throughout life. Trying to make a living out of the things I enjoyed removed the joys from the thing.



jtk
Man, has that ever been the truth for me. I started woodworking as a broke grad student who just needed some furniture. Making pieces for myself/friends/family was a blast. When I started trying to make a living as a cabinetmaker, it was fun for a while, but TS-ing sheets of plywood all day got old real fast. Now that I'm an amateur again, it's fun, mostly because I'm more focused on the process and learning skills than on the product. I spent part of today busting open a big-ass white oak log (for some chairs) with a maul and wedges. I can't even remember the last time I had so much fun.
By the way, I'm not saying every professional is destined to lose his/her passion when going pro. Some people manage to hang on to that passion. I was watching some Curtis Buchanan vids on youtube this weekend, and he seems to be having fun. But it's difficult.

[Everett Fulkerson]

No job in the world is worth being miserable over. When a person believes they need to make x amount of dollars in order to be happy, things can only go downhill from there. Sure, you could hustle harder and work even more hours in any job, but for what? more money, to buy things you don't need to impress people you don't like?

I have a shop, skills learned overtime and a tremendous appetite for knowledge. I use my shop, my mind and my tools to make my living, one I choose to live simply. Never will you catch me neglecting my family or my health for money. No amount of dollars will buy back lost time and as corney as it sounds, all the best things truely are free.

Be Good
Rhett

[Jim Koepke]

No amount of dollars will buy back lost time and as corney as it sounds, all the best things truely are free.

Many of the best moments of my life were without a penny in my pockets.

jtk

[David Weaver]

My mother makes stuff professionally. She doesn't do it for a living, but she could effectively do it for $25 an hour or so for her efforts for as many hours as she wants to. She probably puts about a thousand hours per year into it, maybe a little less. She's retired, and (i hope she doesn't ever read this forum), she's like a sheep dog -if she doesn't have something to keep her busy, she can be hard on other people.

She makes what the customers want. She knows her market, and she hasn't made what she wants to make for at least 25 years. As Andrew said, it's a combination of sort of doing what she wants to do, but focusing on what her customers want, and she really enjoys getting paid.

I don't know a whole lot of people who just bust out some lovely super high end work, and then put it on a table and hope someone will pay gobs of money for it. Sort of reminds me of guitars. People will pay a lot more for a custom guitar to their specs than they will for a similar quality guitar off the rack. I did that once. I have no idea why i did it now, I guess it's human nature. Seeing how my mother has catered to her market, I wouldn't go full time pro until I was in a situation where my job was literally interfering with an already profitable setup.

(I personally would never try it, anyway, I wouldn't want to be bound to deadlines and costs when woodworking or making things, and I wouldn't want to guess what others' priorities are for the work I was providing. I doubt theyd' appreciate the parts of the work that I thought were the most thoughtfully done).

[Brian Ashton]

Well.....actually this was the norm for centuries so certainly not a "new direction". In England and Europe in the old days you could never open your own shop without having fulfilled a full apprenticeship. American early on was a free for all, well actually still is:D Own a hammer, your a contractor! Own a table saw, your a cabinet maker! In actuality there's virtually nothing to impede a person to open their own shop. Which is for my industry one of the problems, if any clown with a hammer can open a shop how is the industry as a whole protected? Having talked with other shop owners there's a lot of them that would actually prefer it if there were some base level of competency required before one could put a sign out. Electricians, Plumbers, Architects, CPA's, Doctors, Lawyers etc. etc......plenty of professions already require you to prove your knowledge first. Personally I don't care all that much, I don't consider other small shops as competition and as I'm already an established business, I don't believe any new regs regarding starting a business would affect me;)

As far as persevering despite my lack of knowledge.....well that's easy, I'm stubborn and not knowledgeable enough to know better:D

good luck,
JeffD

I don't completely disagree with what you're saying except that having credentials hasn't been proven to work. I'd say it probably pretty close when it comes to the number of businesses that fail even though they're run by university graduates and post graduate as opposed to tradies... It has more to do with knowing when not to over spend and knowing when the business cycle is going to go into a downward trend than it has to do with being able to discuss Maslow's hierarchy of needs or Keynesian economics. Remember I'm talking about small business here.

I can't say I've travelled extensively but I've certainly done more than most. From what I have seen, North America has one of the most vibrant and talented furniture making industries going. I suspect it has a lot to do with the freedom people have to be what they want to be without the talent stifling accreditation nazis.

George, do you think you would have become a woodworker if you were subjected to years of full time schooling and an apprenticeship just so you could open a shop or simply call yourself a luther...

[Caspar Hauser]

Other countries are now requiring (or pushing hard to require people to take such courses before they can be certified and eventually allowed to open their own business).


Brian, which countries are requiring what courses?

CH

[Brian Ashton]

Brian, which countries are requiring what courses?

CH

Trade and Craft Code of Germany for some light reading on who and with what qualification can open a business. There was a fairly big push in the UK some years back to bring in a similar qualification scheme, but I moved to Aus instead so stopped following how it was unfolding. I think Europe is a bastion of control so where there's one I'm sure there are a couple other counties. Even Aus is trending in that direction - sometimes I feel like I need a TAFE course just to go to the toilet...