Lie Nielsen new waterstones

[Dave Cav]

If didn't have a good set of Shapton pro stones I'd be looking at these. The combo stones appear to be a pretty good deal. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=2-OHISHII

[Frederick Skelly]

Yeah, they do look tempting.

[Ray Bohn]

Yeah, they do look tempting.

I just used my new 1000/8000 combination stone tonight. Since this is my first experience with anything other than wet/dry and LV micro abrasive sheets my opinion is very biased. I am very pleased with the results. I use a Atoma diamond plate for flattening. I am glad I struggled learning how to sharpen on relatively inexpensive disposable material. I would have been bummed if I a gouged or destroyed a waterstone when I first started.

[Charlie Stanford]

If didn't have a good set of Shapton pro stones I'd be looking at these. The combo stones appear to be a pretty good deal. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=2-OHISHII

L-N recommend these for 'day-to-day' sharpening. What other kind is there?

[Chris Griggs]

L-N recommend these for 'day-to-day' sharpening. What other kind is there?

Academic sharpening of course!:)

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
Did you mean 'academic' as 'irrelevant' or 'those who can't do but can talk about it'. :confused:
Best wishes,
Metod

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
Did you mean 'academic' as 'irrelevant' or 'those who can't do but can talk about it'. :confused:
Best wishes,
Metod

More in the sense of folks (and I include myself in this bunch), who like to mess around with sharpening and sharpening stones beyond the point of what is needed for most woodworking. For example, I keep 0.1 micron iron oxide around that I use as a final step on my straight razors...I've thought about bringing some down to the shop to try my plane blades on... it might be interesting, but there would be no practical purpose for it in terms of getting any actual woodworking done - so it would really just be an academic exercise. I was poking fun at myself.:)

[Mark Roderick]

I believe Lie-Nielsen used to sell Nortons and then Shaptons. I wonder whether they're selling these new stones because they are really better or for more mundane reasons.

[David Weaver]

Probably more mundane reasons, like supply, margin, demand for something "exciting".

When they went to shapton glasstones, it was a real head scratcher. 42 hundred other retailers sell them, and LN likes to mark their stuff up more than other folks. Shapton can sometimes have supply issues, too. I don't know if that was the case there, but shapton has had spurts in the past where this or that stone could be difficult to find until they ran another batch. Shaptons in the US also come through harrelson stanley, which doesn't make them any cheaper. I don't know what dealer agents in japan charge for ohishi, but figure that LN is better off selling something nobody else does unless they want to compete on price.

No clue what the ohishi stones are, if they are magnesia binder or resin, but it makes little difference. There's no great divide between any of the modern stones once you know how fine they actually are.

I see the epicurean edge has them about 10-15% cheaper.

[Chris Griggs]

I briefly used them once. They're good stones, definitely better than Nortons (which are perfectly good stones in there own right). That said I don't think the Ohishi are categorically better than Shaptons, Sigmas, or any of the good ceramic stones on market. More of a case of different strokes for different folks. I could use a 3k stone (sort of, not urgently) and the price is right on that one, maybe I should buy the 3k and have it sent to Dave's or Archie's house so we can get a full review/good comparison to the other major players on the market.

[David Weaver]

I wonder what they are. LN is notorious for not telling you anything about what they're selling, and just saying "we recommend these for...".

OK, what's binding them? It's kind of important to know. They look like many of imanishi's offerings, but that doesn't mean that they are made by imanishi. Epicurean edge describes them as "clay matrix", which sounds odd, especially for a 1000 grit stone. One of the knife forums recommends for them to be soaked for 15 minutes.

If they are magnesia or softer resin stones, they could provide an inexpensive alternative to choseras, though they're probably softer since people call choseras "hard" stones. Relative term. I'd call them usable hardness though a touch harder would be preferable.

Between the shapton pros and the sigma power stones (the 1200 is monster hard, and the 13k is super fine), there's not a lot of room for improvement. They are a great improvement over the first generation of stones (like kings, etc) but they are at the practical limit pretty much of abrasive density and quality.

[Metod Alif]

Folks who develop/manufacture the stones must have their own focus. How much do they learn from users' experience. How much is new for the sake of 'new' - as to create/expand the market?
Can you compare .5 micron chromium oxide with your iron oxide? Initial sharpness, and sharpness after a few strokes? Would be interesting? What is the 'sharpness limit' for a particular type of steel?
Best wishes,
Metod

[Mark Roderick]

"Probably more mundane reasons, like supply, margin, demand for something 'exciting'."

I'm betting you are absolutely right David.

[Chris Griggs]

Can you compare .5 micron chromium oxide with your iron oxide? Initial sharpness, and sharpness after a few strokes? Would be interesting? What is the 'sharpness limit' for a particular type of steel?
Best wishes,
Metod

Well Dave's probably a better person to answer this than me, but here are my completely non-expert unqualified thoughts (most of which I got from him anyway and then kinda just verified for myself)

I think .5 micron chromium oxide reaches the practical limit of anything you'll notice on woodworking, and even then its probably not practical for most work. The only place I've ever really noticed much improvement in use with chromium oxide is with very light paring chisel cuts. That level of finesse can be worthwhile on smoother as well, but their again its really only going to be noticed for the finest work. The initial keeness from that level of sharpness is lost almost as soon as you touch blade to wood anyway especially if you are doing anything other than super fine cuts. (though perhaps it still extends some amount of sharpness even once the initial keeness is lost).

0.1 micron iron oxide is insanely awesome in terms of what it does to an edge, but the only way I can identify the improvement over chromium oxide is with a hanging hair test (HHT) or by actually shaving. When shaving with a straight razor you feel the difference on your face. Iron Oxide will create an exceptionally smooth keen edge that may actually be too sharp for some people who have bumpier skin than me. (too sharp means those little bumps get shaved off) Fortunately, I don't have that issue, so for me it just creates a super smooth edge that doesn't tug at all. I don't even strop at all...I just shave off of the iron ox. Using the HHT you see the difference by how it cuts the hanging hair. If I stop at the CrOx my razors will pop hanging hairs pretty easily, but sometimes will catch and split rather than POP. Once I take the razor to Iron Ox the hairs literally "ping" (yes you can hear it) off the edge when you pull them across it, even when I am holding the hair a good distance out from the cutting edge.

I haven't done a direct side by side comparison like this l on tools, but my thoughts are that any improvement in edge IronOx would offer over CrOx would be lost the second blade touches wood. Unless you are doing a lot delicate paring in softwoods (such as what like John Coloccia does in his guitar making) or maybe if you are a world renowned sushi chef, even CrOx is probably overkill. Yes, it will make the edges sharper but that doesn't necessarily transmit to anything that will help you in your woodworking, especially if you are already honing up to about the one micron level with stones. If your finest stone is below say 8k, than CrOx is a great way to cheaply get your blades sharper when you need it w/o having to drop big money on a super fine stone (this is how I use it in the shop), but again for someone who already has a stone that is 1 micron (give or take) the extra sharpness you get from the CrOx probably won't translate to the wood. Iron Ox or anything below .5 micron is probably a total waste of time and money...time better spent making sure one does a good job on their lower grit stones. This level of honing is pretty far down the rabbet hole. It's fun/interesting stuff to play with on those nights and weekends your to busy or too tired to getting any real work done in the shop, and perhaps a good self education to learn the practical limits of different levels of sharp, but it won't likely do much to improve anyone woodworking.

As far as ultimate sharpness in steel goes all I know is I've only ever got one tool to pass a hanging hair test, and that was a vintage parer honed at 20 degrees (though I have some japanese parers on the way that I will try to get that sharp). That chisel cut super sweet for a handful of strokes, and would have only been useful for the finest of fitting operations. I can say that good vintage carbon steel razors are made out of something magical, as are good vintage paring chisels, and I'm told good japanese edge tools, but I can't explain why or what the difference is other than to generically say that I've been told those steels are harder and finer grained. Someone who knows more than me will need to explain that.

[David Weaver]

I agree with that. A 1 micron stone makes a nice stopping point because there's really no perceptible difference in sharpness vs. chromium oxide if you bare-leather strop the edge (big difference in a shave, though).

Anything finer than chromium oxide would get blasted off in the first cut or two with woodworking tools, and most of the really fine abrasives, aside from diamonds, are really messy because they're pigments.

Fine diamonds are the exception, but fine diamonds never impart the edge quality they seem like they should for their size, and I think they're detrimental to really hard plain carbon steel.

I like one medium stone and one modern 1 micron stone. Super nice to use, and super fast.

[David Barnett]

Fine diamonds are the exception, but fine diamonds never impart the edge quality they seem like they should for their size, and I think they're detrimental to really hard plain carbon steel.

Without going too deeply into polishing esoterica, I agree, although I'd say deleterious to the edge rather than to the hardened carbon steel itself.

What you're describing, the continued scratching of sub-micron diamond on tool steel to polish an edge, is where the return on diamond diminishes and the advantages of oxide media start to kick in.

Gem faceters, especially those who facet for judged competition—a whole 'nother level from sharpening—distinguish between gem species polished with diamond and those polished with oxides. Much has been written about the two differing polishing paradigms—and I use polishing to describe the final finish on steel cutting edges and gem surfaces—and which gem species respond best to each.

Diamond conforms to the ever finer scratch paradigm; oxide polishes to the Beilby layer flow paradigm*. For those unfamiliar with Beilby flow, it explains, among other things, why some species of crystalline and non-crystalline materials can be polished by oxide polishes that may be softer than those surfaces being polishing; in other words, why iron oxide—jeweler's rouge—can polish the outermost molecular layer of hardened tool steel, rearranging and disorienting its crystalline alignments into a smoother amorphous surface.

Depending on the steel and its hardened and tempered crystalline state, one may determine a point where shifting from diamond to oxides may be desirable. As a rule of thumb, I stop at 1µ diamond and shift to .5µ chromium oxide.


I like one medium stone and one modern 1 micron stone. Super nice to use, and super fast.

Fast is where it's at for woodworking tools—600-grit polycrystalline Eze-Lap to 1µ diamond paste, then optionally, to .5µ CrO2.

*Aggregation and flow of solids; being the records of an experimental study of the micro-structure and physical properties of solids in various states of aggregation, by Sir George Thomas Beilby, a real page turner—well, at least for some of us.

Download at http://archive.org/details/aggregationflowo00beilrich

[David Weaver]

David, I agree, though you know much more about what happens sub micron than I do.

When I convinced Chris Griggs that he should shave with a straight razor, he one-upped the razor I sent him by locating 0.1 micron iron oxide. I don't really use that kind of stuff on my razor (vintage linen instead),but I couldn't resist given it doesn't cost much. I was shocked (given its hardness) how fast the surface on a balsa lap with iron oxide was stained with swarf from the razor.

Plus, you convinced me to get the ezelap a while ago and other than on the hardest carbon steel I have, I use it in combination with a shapton 1 micron stone and I can't say I've ever been as quick back to the bench without compromising on the sharpness. Super great thing to have around for the few things that I have that really require a fresh surface on a shapton medium stone (the mujingfang irons that are made of the equivalent of 62 hardness rubber, and some chisels I got from stu)

[Mel Fulks]

I doubt seriously that any of our members ,or contributors, do not know more than enough about that pair of dimes.

[David Barnett]

With money being so freely printed these days, that pair o' dimes I used to rub together barely covers my two cents' worth.

[David Barnett]

When I convinced Chris Griggs that he should shave with a straight razor, he one-upped the razor I sent him by locating 0.1 micron iron oxide.

So Mr. Griggs, it would appear, is actively questing for that perfect edge. Happens. :)

Do you think he knows he can get iron oxide down to .01µ and even smaller? That's right, less than 10 nanometers. Perhaps it's best not to tell him.


I was shocked (given its hardness) how fast the surface on a balsa lap with iron oxide was stained with swarf from the razor.

Amazing, isn't it? Although my uses for rouge are more for gold and silversmithing, I do use it to polish steel, as well—just not for woodworking edge tools, although I did use an old blackened horsehide strop charged with rouge for bookbinding parers decades ago. I now rouge stakes, anvils, swage blocks, daps, punches, forming tools, planishing and forging hammers to encourage the smooth, unmarred flow of cold-worked metal on metal.

Lately I'm working on a series of bespoke watch dials in basse taille enamel and the tiny repoussé punches, chasing tools and gravers are polished with rouge, which makes all the difference, as it's so fine and mild as to not appreciably alter the geometries of tool faces. A less polished planishing punch or liner will grab the very thin, fine silver or 22k gold, with unwanted effects, perhaps even tearing them.

Anyway, small and hard as these tools are, a few strokes on charged orangewood or a touch on a flexshaft buff charged with rouge and both immediately show black. Steel is smoothed and removed—precious little steel, mind you, but steel nonetheless—and as I don't temper the ends of these punches, they're glass hard.

While it's a little slower, finer and messier than what I need in the woodshop, fancy rust is good stuff.

[Chris Griggs]

So Mr. Griggs, it would appear, is actively questing for that perfect edge. Happens. :)

Do you think he knows he can get iron oxide down to .01µ and even smaller? That's right, less than 10 nanometers. Perhaps it's best not to tell him.


:pHa. That's insanity, even for me, even for razors. I think at that level one would just flay of their skin...bit too close of a shave for my taste.

Fancy rust...as you put is indeed amazing stuff though.

BTW, for any other crazy folks out there the cheapest way to get iron oxide (or chromium oxide) is from a pigment seller. This is the specific one to get: Iron Oxide 110M from Kremer Pigments (http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=010102&lang=ENG&product=48100). You cannot just get any iron oxide or any chromium oxide, there are specific ones that are suitable for honing. I ran across them on a razor forum after I paid the same money for much less compound from a razor supply seller (though you use so little that it doesn't really matter). Kremer also sells a .3 micron CroOx (http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=0101&lang=ENG&product=44200) the the razor people like although I use some .5 micron stuff I got from another seller. Again, though there is really no reason to get anything other the .5 CrOx for the woodshop...CrOx is nice because it has some cutting power and will get an edge as fine as any you'll ever need. It cuts well enough that it follows finish and pre finish stones very very well (even then its not often I do anything beyond my 8k stone).

Ummm, what was this thread about again? Oh yeah, those Ohishi waterstones that LN is selling. Anyone buy one yet?

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
Thanks for a good/practical explanation. I am so used to chromium oxide that I do not think of it as an overkill. It represents an obvious improvement over #8000 water stone. Following David Barnett's 'education', I invested few bucks into diamond powder (currently with cast iron or scrap Corian). I am very pleased with his sharpening schedule.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

Chris,
Thanks for a good/practical explanation. I am so used to chromium oxide that I do not think of it as an overkill. It represents an obvious improvement over #8000 water stone. Following David Barnett's 'education', I invested few bucks into diamond powder (currently with cast iron or scrap Corian). I am very pleased with his sharpening schedule.
Best wishes,
Metod

The chromium oxide level of sharpness is like air conditioning. Once you have it, you really don't want to go back down a step.

I find David's advice and explanations extremely useful, too. Glad to see him posting over here.

[David Weaver]

Anyway, small and hard as these tools are, a few strokes on charged orangewood or a touch on a flexshaft buff charged with rouge and both immediately show black. Steel is smoothed and removed—precious little steel, mind you,

There's something very satisfying about sharpening economy like that. I don't know what it is, but it's one of the things appealing to me about the good japanese chisels, though it does take a decent finish stone to keep them in shape.

It also exists with the vintage linens, which have some sort of chalk and wax type of concoction on them. They sound like a zipper when you pass a razor over them, and the razor rings as it comes off of each stroke. It seems something that's certainly destined to damage the edge, but no such thing happens and the effect is even more gentle than iron oxide. What occurs is only a very slight graying of the linen over, so far, about 50 uses (which is about 3000 or so passes of a razor). It conditions the edge so well that I'm not really sure how often a razor would need to see the stones, maybe every 6 months? maybe a year? without it, it's a schedule of every two weeks or so back to the stones. I think a decent strop of that type could maintain a razor with minimal honing and have the razor still nearly be full after a lifetime of use. It allows you to use an orphan razor heavily without worrying about it being consumed. The finest razors that were made in the early 1900s will probably never again be matched.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
Thanks for a good/practical explanation. I am so used to chromium oxide that I do not think of it as an overkill. It represents an obvious improvement over #8000 water stone. Following David Barnett's 'education', I invested few bucks into diamond powder (currently with cast iron or scrap Corian). I am very pleased with his sharpening schedule.
Best wishes,
Metod

Yeah, I don't disagree about the CrOx not being total overkill, it's more that I think its the practical limit. Though I don't think its always a necessary either. The "necessity" of something like CrOx has a lot to do with what your finest stone is and what you are doing. My finest stone like yours is an 8k so CrOx is an obvious improvement (and also a great way to touchup tools) for me as well, but I simply don't always bother with that improvement...depends on the task and the tool. If your finishing stone is something finer than 8k the returns you get from CrOx likely diminish.

Anyway, looking back at my earlier post I overemphasized my point about CrOx being potentially overkill. It definitely has a lot of potential to be useful in the shop, but I always try to distinguish between something that is "needed" and something that is nice to have. I really only use mine on paring chisels and my finish smoother. Everything else stops at 8k unless I'm just playing around. If I was working with a stone that was closer to 1 micron, I likely wouldn't bother with CrOx at all (or very very rarely). That's just me though, as I really try to keep honing to a 2 step process. The extent to which any individual woodworker will find something at a .5 micron level useful is probably just that, very individual..it depends on the tools, the wood, the type of work - though its so darn cheap there is no reason for someone not to try it if they want to see for themselves whether or not the extra step is worth it.

In all honesty, I go back in forth with all this stuff. I go through phases where I feel like anything less than the sharpest possible edge isn't enough, and other phases where I think a good 5k-6k stone (like a sigma 6k or shapton 5k) is plenty good enough for most of what I do. I can be pretty wishy washy about it depending on what I'm working on and to some extent just what I randomly happen to think matters doing at the moment.

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
I like your wishy washy 'random flexibility' or is it 'flexible randomness'. Being dogmatic about sharpening is probably not your forte.:).
Best wishes,
Metod

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
I like your wishy washy 'random flexibility' or is it 'flexible randomness'. Being dogmatic about sharpening is probably not your forte.:).
Best wishes,
Metod

Thanks Metod... I'd say more of random flexibility than flexible randomness :)

[Mark Roderick]

David, please translate that for me. Meaning, which stones or other devices do you use on a day-to-day basis?

[David Weaver]

David, please translate that for me. Meaning, which stones or other devices do you use on a day-to-day basis?

Tracing this back to the threaded mode, it looks like this was a question for me and not david barnett?

For carbon steel tools (like vintage stuff), I use a shapton 1000 pro and a shapton 15000 pro.

If the steel is not carbon steel, I now use a 600 grit ezelap and the shapton 15000 pro. It's a little faster overall just because you never have to do anything with the diamond hone other than use it, and it is totally indifferent to one of the planes I use often that has a high speed steel iron.

[Mark Roderick]

The "like vintage stuff" includes typical modern-day tools like Veritas and Lie-Nielsen?

[David Weaver]

No, I'd call O1 alloyed steel. Same with A2 and chrome manganese and chrome vanadiums that are in modern tools. That pretty much covers modern offerings. LV's powder steel feels similar to A2 and sharpens similar to it.

Carbon steel would be stuff like W1 (water hardening, etc) or old tools labeled "cast steel". Water hardening and vintage stuff labeled "cast steel" has little in it intentionally that is beyond carbon and iron. It works easily on any stone and when it's really hard, I don't necessarily like the feel of it on diamonds. There's no great reason not to use diamonds with it, though. A good cheap solution would be an ezelap 600 and a gray market shapton cream (like something from toolsfromjapan or whatever where you can get the benefit of the excellent exchange rate now). The ezelap could be used both to hone and to lap the surface of the shapton. That'd be about $110 or something.

[Chris Griggs]

A good cheap solution would be an ezelap 600 and a gray market shapton cream (like something from toolsfromjapan or whatever where you can get the benefit of the excellent exchange rate now). The ezelap could be used both to hone and to lap the surface of the shapton. That'd be about $110 or something.

Worth noting... for those who might want the Sigma 13k instead of the cream the current exchange rate is making options abundant. If you're in the states ordering from Stu the 13k is presently only like $12-$15 more than the gray market cream. IIRC it used to be more like $30-$40 more than the best prices I'd see on the 12k creams.

[Mark Roderick]

Very interesting. For years I have been using a white Norton followed by a yellow Norton followed by a piece of plywood with green rouge. Maybe your way is better/faster/cleaner. You certainly know more about it. I love my yellow Norton, just the silky feel of the metal on the stone.

[David Weaver]

Nothing wrong with the nortons.

[Chris Griggs]

The yellow 8k norton is a nice stone. The best of the Nortons IMO. Not as fine as some of the fancier finishers, but yields a good edge in its own right and is quite nice to use. Plus it is easily followed by any honing compound or micro abrasive when needed.

The only Norton I flat out don't like is the 220, and for anyone mainly relying on the 1k and 8k, who wants to upgrade I would recommend upgrading the 1k to something different before the 8k. Not that one needs to upgrade from the 1k. Its a perfectly decent stone too.

[Mark Roderick]

I have the Norton 1,000 but rarely use it.

Would you suggest the Shapton 15,000 over the green rouge? I do try to hone a few times before re-sharpening, so if the Shapton would help it would be worth it to me.

[David Weaver]

I can't see a great difference between the two. The green stuff that LV sells is pretty fast because it's got a bunch of aluminum oxide in it, and the shapton is certainly no finer in its overall effect.

Maybe revisit the issue when you run out of rouge if you like to bump your edge up from the norton a little bit, otherwise you're spending $100 on something different but not necessarily better.

You can use the shapton 15k like you describe (return to it fairly often to work an edge), but you can also already do that with wood and compound.