Please explain something to a dumb....

[John Miliunas]

...to a dumb Neander newbie. OK. The theory is that hand planing wood will typically yield a more "vibrant" surface in preparing it for finishing. I've played with a number of smoothers on various wood surfaces and I'm totally convinced of this concept!:) Fine, so now I have a number of smooth and "lively" boards, I glue them up and afterwords clean up the glue joints and maybe need to smooth everything out again just a touch to even everything out. I'm still all over this.:)

BUT NOW, what about some of the other pieces, as in for instance, stiles and rails? Once again, prep the stock beautifully, choose your joinery, dry fit everything and glue it up. OH NOOOOOOOO! I just put a clamp on the mitered corner (with a "padding" of thin ply to protect the surface) to line it up properly, clamped up the rest of the frame, again putting clamps at each corner and I never even saw the squeeze-out on to my beautifully prepared stock! :( Pull all the clamps after an hour or two and there's all this "wonderful" yellow glue on the surface of each corner! Opposite grains are meeting at these joints, so planing them out is not an option. Get out the ROS??? If so, what's the point of all the planing in the first place??? Am I missing something here or is sanding down frames, even on a Neander-like piece acceptable and proper protocol? Or, does everyone prep as mentioned and then use tape on each and every joint? If so, what did they do prior to the invention of self-adhering tape? I'm missing something here, ain't I?:( :o :) :cool:

[Martin Shupe]

John,

My solution is to use hide glue. (no, not the homemade stinky stuff, the premade stuff) Cleans up with warm water. Of course, the water raises the grain, not sure how to fix that except a little 320 sandpaper.

These days I only use "yellow" glue to edge glue boards when making panels.

I like "Old Brown Glue", but I don't have the website in my head right now. Give me a couple days, and I'll find it for you.

You can buy hide glue at Woodcraft, but watch the date....it is only good for one year.

Another benefit of hide glue is longer open time, less stressful glue ups.

Try it, you'll like it.

[Lloyd Robins]

Try Joel at www.toolsforworkingwood.com

[Roy Wall]

Hey JOhn,


I think this is a great question! I think you could use a SPLINE as an alternative and let the glue squeeze out on the outside edge grain of the frame.........then use those beautiful planes to "whisk away" the badness and still retain the finish....

[Mark Singer]

John,

Those are excellent points! Not every joined group of elements are best planed. A scraper is a good way to transition. Some sanding is helpful many times. Also blue tape will keep glue off and allow you to plane on a joined piece without planing on the apron going the other direction...then you reverse it. Some components are simple, shelves , inset panels, cabinet backs. You can turn the plane to make a corner and hold it on a skew it is easier. I have mentioned your issues before in my posts, planing everything in theory is great, in practice it doesn't always work...:confused:

[Tim Leo]

I've been trying to use less glue. I don't think you can starve the joint for too little glue.

[John Miliunas]

Thanks for the suggestions, gentlemen! It appears that there is no single "cure-all" or method. Maybe it will have to be a combination of the suggestions. First, I've never used hide glue, so this would probably be one of the parts of this puzzle. I think I may try the blue tape, as well. I've already been trying to limit the amount of glue I apply and have recently started to use more by the way of biscuits when appropriate. I guess I would just love to do a project entirely finished with a plane and not having to resort to pounding the bajeezus out of the wood with a sander! Again, thanks much for the suggestions and tips!:) :cool:

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Good question John. When you do your trial test fit [clamped] make sure that everything is flush. Now take it apart [stile and rail for this example] and take 2 full lenght shavings off of the stiles. Glue everything and clamp. You need to minimize squeeze out and use less glue or tape etc. Hopefully at this point all you need is 2 full lenght shavings off of the rails and everything is flush. Hope this is of some help to you. Peter

[John Miliunas]

Good question John. When you do your trial test fit [clamped] make sure that everything is flush. Now take it apart [stile and rail for this example] and take 2 full lenght shavings off of the stiles. Glue everything and clamp. You need to minimize squeeze out and use less glue or tape etc. Hopefully at this point all you need is 2 full lenght shavings off of the rails and everything is flush. Hope this is of some help to you. Peter

Peter, I see you're new here at SMC so, first off, WELCOME! Great place to hang out. Secondly, I had never even thought of doing something like that on purpose and then correcting after the fact! That is might cool and may give that a shot on a practice piece or two! (Ahhhhhh, most of my stuff is practice!:rolleyes: ). Anyhow, a no-cost solution, though I still think I'll probably work it in with the tape, just in case!:) Thank you and stop by often!:) :cool:

[Bob Smalser]

I'm sure you're simply using too much glue...and also probably using that awful gummy yellow stuff that doesn't clean up well and interferes with staining. (and is impossible to repair)

Think about it: The only surfaces that are useful for gluing are face grain. When the wood shrinks, the edge grain glue joint breaks and end grain is always totally worthless as a glue joint.

So if your joinery is properly tight, just apply a thin coat of glue to face grain mating surfaces....omit the rest....and use plastic resin or hide glue that clean up easily.

This is a common mistake of the conscientious, who think tend to think if a little is good then more is better...and most followers of Norm, who also hasn't learned this lesson yet.

[Steve Wargo]

Have you ever considered taping up the joint? If it's a joint that is going to be visible, this is a valuable step, that will save time in the long run. Also, if you wait for the glue to gel up and remove it with a chisel you'll be able to just lightly scrape the area afterwards. Also prefinishing works wonders and will help with cleaning up squeeze out, and finish adhesion.

[Mark Singer]

John,

Here is another handy trick...http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/adhesives/56z9961s1.jpg



After gluing trere will always be a slight mis alignment of edges. Remove glue with a scraper then plane to flush. I don't like planning the glue so I scrape it. The final strokes are with a smoother and sometimes a well tuned block plabe around joints..the LN 102 is very good for this.

[John Hart]

I had an idea last night that I wanted to float here...Don't laugh too hard. What if you treated the area around the joint with something that the glue won't stick to...like the oil you intend finishing with or something that won't be a detriment to the final appearance. Then, if you do get some squeeze-out, you can pick the glue off with your fingers?

[Steve Wargo]

John,

That's is what I was talking about when I said prefinishing. If the workpiece is already finished, the finish will act as a barrier between the glue and wood, making it hard for the glue to penetrate the surface and adhere. There are other advantages of prefinishing as well. While I don't always do it, there have been time when I'm sure it's save a ton of time in the long run.

[John Hart]

ahh...you see there...I should pay attention to what I'm reading!:o

[Matthew Dworman]

Hi John,
I too hate sanding. I try to use a smoother to get a finished surface on all of my pieces, but when you are designing your piece and cutting your parts to size, you need to consider when you will smooth them:
Panels and some other parts that are not accessible after glue up will need to be smoothed prior to assembly.
Drawers, tops, and sometimes rails/stiles can be smoothed prior to assembly. When this is the case, I try to mask off with tape anywhere that might be affected by glue, and if possible I will apply finish before assembling - and in this case, you will need to mak off the areas of the joints that WILL be glued.
In the case with your rail and stile joint, planing should not be a problem. Just go slow with a very sharp blade set for a very fine shaving. Hold the plane at a skew and steer the plane into the transition as you would a car taking a turn - by skewing the blade more as you approach the joint, you can minimize the cross-grain planing and end up planing in the right direction. Just don't expect to take fast swooshing strokes here. Slowly drive the plane and make it go where you want it to go in a controlled manner and you should have great results.
If you are unable to do this, you can resort to a scraper or a scraper-plane, but the finish will not ba as smooth as a clean cut with a #4 1/2, etc. - Yes it will feel smooth and still look better than sandpaper, but there will be a noticeable difference after finish is applied between where you planed and where you scraped...
Good luck,
Matt

[Jerry Olexa]

John , being even dumber, I don't understand your situation completely but a simple thing I have done in past might help: When facing glue-squeeze out issues, I finish, in advance, the pieces involved (really helpful w rail/style) and then you don't have the inevitable glue squeeze out affecting stain/dye issues later . Might help! Told you it would be dumb advice!

[John Miliunas]

John , being even dumber, I don't understand your situation completely but a simple thing I have done in past might help: When facing glue-squeeze out issues, I finish, in advance, the pieces involved (really helpful w rail/style) and then you don't have the inevitable glue squeeze out affecting stain/dye issues later . Might help! Told you it would be dumb advice!

Hah!:D And if you think THAT'S dumb, try this one: I never even thought of doing something that simple and here, numerous people have pointed out that solution!:) It's all a learning process and, in this case, it looks like I may need to UN-learn part of the procedure, which I've always used. Cut it, build it, paint it. NOT!:D Plus a few other neat tips along the way...:) This place ROCKS!!! Thanks again to ALL!!!:) :cool:

[Mark Singer]

John,

At joints you will always get a bit of "offset" you can see and feel...the wodd is onot at eactly the same level.....you need to scrape or plane that flush

[larry merlau]

Hah!:D And if you think THAT'S dumb, try this one: I never even thought of doing something that simple and here, numerous people have pointed out that solution!:) It's all a learning process and, in this case, it looks like I may need to UN-learn part of the procedure, which I've always used. Cut it, build it, paint it. NOT!:D Plus a few other neat tips along the way...:) This place ROCKS!!! Thanks again to ALL!!!:) :cool:


hey john i am just going to try and warn you, as any friend should these guys and there hand tools are all very contagoius, and its appears to be a uncureable disease.. so be sure to get your shots if your gonna be lurking in here now...

[John Miliunas]

hey john i am just going to try and warn you, as any friend should these guys and there hand tools are all very contagoius, and its appears to be a uncureable disease.. so be sure to get your shots if your gonna be lurking in here now...

Ahhh, my fine electron burning friend, alas, you are too late with your warning!:eek: The disease has already made a firm hold on yours truly and I'm afraid the hand tool thing has now become an integral part of the process!:) Now, for YOU...There's still time! What the heck you doin' in here in the first place???:eek: Be careful...It's going around!:D :) :cool:

[larry merlau]

Ahhh, my fine electron burning friend, alas, you are too late with your warning!:eek: The disease has already made a firm hold on yours truly and I'm afraid the hand tool thing has now become an integral part of the process!:) Now, for YOU...There's still time! What the heck you doin' in here in the first place???:eek: Be careful...It's going around!:D :) :cool:

i was just following your shirt tails to see if i could learn something :D and thought i should at least warn you.. also i think that these guys can pretty much do it all so it should be a good place to learn at :)

[John Miliunas]

i was just following your shirt tails to see if i could learn something :D and thought i should at least warn you.. also i think that these guys can pretty much do it all so it should be a good place to learn at :)

Oh NO-o-o-o-o!:eek: Don't follow me...I'm lost, too!:D And no, this isn't a "good" place to learn at. It's a GREAT place for that!:) :cool: