Rusty Italian Machinery .. looking for advise .. Pictures

[Rick Fisher]

Some folks up my way closed up a millwork shop some years ago and stored all the machinery in a shipping container. Sadly in our climate, those containers sweat in the warmer months, and the cast iron surfaces where left un-protected.

Guard your eyes.. lol

They have a Griggio PSA-520 Planer in the mix which they wish to sell .. I got some photo's of it and am hoping that someone here who owns a Euro planer can tell me how much work it would be to clean this poor machine up ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/DSC_2939_zps0157a683.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/DSC_2939_zps0157a683.jpg.html)

Notice his hand is on a rusty surface.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/DSC_2940_zps6c2c7061.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/DSC_2940_zps6c2c7061.jpg.html)

Notice the intense rust color on the castings on the left and right of the machine..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/DSC_2941_zpsc90fadf3.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/DSC_2941_zpsc90fadf3.jpg.html)

More rust seen above

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/DSC_2937_zps86acac51.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/DSC_2937_zps86acac51.jpg.html)

The roller .. and of course the castings ..



What is this machine worth ?
How much work to fix ?
Any chance of motor or electronics issues due to rust ?
This fella has rise / fall on the table, Segmented in-feed, all parts which are steel or cast..

[Rick Fisher]

I should add that these folks have a big Euro Jointer, Robland T-120 Shaper.. All stored alongside... That planer is just one example .

[johnny means]

Half hour with a Scotch-brite and some WD-40, followed by a quick wipedown with a rag and some DNA and I'm putting that thing to work.

I've seen worse machines in service.

[David Kumm]

The roller may be pitted but that really doesn't hurt anything. The rust looks mainly surface so green scotchbrite will make that go away. It doesn't look to have been used hard. The chipbreakers and pressure bars will need to be taken off and regreased. Bearings are likely shot but all in all not too bad. If it was in good condition it would go for 5-7K so 2-3K would be my top end considering time and some parts. Would have to see it to guess better. Euro electrics are fussy no matter what but most are easily sourced off ebay for reasonable money. Lack of use is hard on stuff but the machine itself is high quality so worth the effort. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

Thanks for the replies.. I am primarily concerned with the planer about parts that I cant get at.. I am concerned about having to tear down the machine to get at rust.. not sure if that fear is valid.

Certainly not against cleaning and scrubbing..

The motor should be fine.. 7.5hp or 10hp .. I dunno and don't really care... I love Tersa heads and assume it has one. It looks like one..

[David Kumm]

Tersa would be a huge plus. I can't tell, thought I saw traditional gibs but it does look like there are holes in the side of the machine to slip them in and out. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

Tear down to replace bearings might be a weekend job for you. Bearings will be available from any bearing supply house.

[Matt Meiser]

If it was me I'd tear them down, clean everything, repaint, and reassemble with new bearings. But, to me that's fun, not work. If you just want to get them running, I'd clean them up best you can, clean parts that contact wood, maybe replace bearings as appropriate, and run them.

[Erik Loza]

Agree with the the guys: Mostly cosmetic stuff, just some elbow grease to fix. Seen way worse. That looks like a Tersa head in the Griggio to me. What a find, I hope it works out for you.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter J Lee]

Aluminum foil and water works remarkably well on chrome.

[David Kumm]

For that much surface rust the nuts and bolts look remarkably clean. That is a good sign the mechanical parts won't need a ton a work. Dave

[Keith Bohn]

The three C's of buying used machines are cosmetics, condition and completeness. Add cost (what the seller is asking/what you'd pay) and you have a fourth C.

Cosmetics are the least of your worries. Cleaning and paint don't require a lot of out of pocket, more time than anything.

Condition has to do with worn or broken parts. With regards to wearing, you'd be surprised how bad a machine might look but not be so worn out that it's not useable. It takes a lot to kill these things. On the other hand a broken part is a broken part and those typically need to be dealt with. If you have the means to fix broken that's one thing. If you don't, that can/could get dicey.

Completeness can be subjective. Would I buy a table saw if it was missing the miter gage? Hell yes. Would I if it was missing the fence? Probably, if it was priced as a saw without a fence. In other words, don't walk away from a machine because it's missing something, but that's depending on what the something is.

Which brings us to the hard nut. If you don't know anything about the machine and you're looking for a crash course on everything you need to know about the machine, you probably shouldn't be looking at the machine, unless the price is so ridiculously low you won't be hurt, in which case you can probably sell it for what you have in it.

If you need some inspiration I'd suggest this thread off the OWWM.

owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54231

Like I said, it takes a lot to kill these things.

[Jim Andrew]

I really doubt the bearings are hurt. After all, they are built with grease in them. The only reason there is any rust on the machine is there is no grease coating the surfaces.

[David Kumm]

I really doubt the bearings are hurt. After all, they are built with grease in them. The only reason there is any rust on the machine is there is no grease coating the surfaces.

Could be the case. Sealed bearings have about a 20 year life and that machine looks newer than that. I don't watch Griggio enough to know when the color schemes change. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

That machine is about 10 years old . Its the Turquoise Griggio ..

I have a Griggio Jointer already and am pretty impressed with the build quality..

David will understand this .. but this is a " Phase Perfect moment " ..

[Larry Edgerton]

David will understand this .. but this is a " Phase Perfect moment " ..

Awe Shucks! You guys are hoarding those things..........


That is not a Tersa head. In picture # 4 you can see the jackscrews. My SCMI is about that old and could be had with or without a Tersa. I am sure all the castings have that hole, tersa or conventional. The Tersa head was a $2000 option 13 years ago, but glad I went for it.

Larry

[Rick Fisher]

Larry, I think your right about the Tersa head. I have another non - rust photo which also makes me think its an old style gib head.

I don't want it that way.. I promised myself never again.. lol Tersa or Helical.. that's it..

[bobby milam]

If you buy them instead of elbow grease, there are good chemicals out there to fix the rust problem. I have bought some rust inhibitor and rust convertor from Eastwood for rusty car parts and they have worked pretty well with minimal labor involved.

[Rick Fisher]

Reviving my old thread because today I bought the old rusty Italian tools ..

The Planer is actually not that rusty..

The jointer.. its huge.. not just a bit big... Its really big.. It came with a Steff 4 wheel feeder ..

Both need a bunch of love.. sitting in a shipping container for about 8 years .. not good ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/IMG-20130711-00401_zpsc3fd3c46.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/IMG-20130711-00401_zpsc3fd3c46.jpg.html)

The Planer appears to be 9hp .. The jointer is 6.6hp .. Big motors.. Feeder is 1hp .. not as big.. lol ..
Planer has 2 adjustable bed rollers, segmented infeed roller, dual out-feed rollers, power rise/fall, Variable feed speed... etc..

Jointer is pretty basic.

[jack forsberg]

those planers are common here in Canada any way. good soild kit. As the othere have said your rust does not look that bad as far as rust goes. I cleaned my fair share and they got to be really bad to require more than a wire wheel to clean.
How much work are they? plenty but where worth it in most cases. what may look bad to some is not that hard to clean up. Take my Wadkin RM PT as an sample. the rust was easy to clean as far as returning it to like new it was the heavy parts that you need to deal with. so you need a lift or engine host to handle the parts. I would say it took me 40 hours to clean the rust on this baby but you may not even need to be taken yours apart. its a great lesson on how the machine works too.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/IMG_01961.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/IMG_01961.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/002-40.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/002-40.jpg.html)

jack
English machines

[David Kumm]

Jack , unreal! Rick, great score. The rust won't be that bad to deal with. They look really good to me. The motor sizes are common to italian machines. Same as SCMI uses. 7.5 hp at 50 hz converts to 9 hp at 60 hz, etc. Well done. Dave

[Ben Kiefer]

Wow, that may be the most spectacular restoration I've seen. Fantastic job!



those planers are common here in Canada any way. good soild kit. As the othere have said your rust does not look that bad as far as rust goes. I cleaned my fair share and they got to be really bad to require more than a wire wheel to clean.
How much work are they? plenty but where worth it in most cases. what may look bad to some is not that hard to clean up. Take my Wadkin RM PT as an sample. the rust was easy to clean as far as returning it to like new it was the heavy parts that you need to deal with. so you need a lift or engine host to handle the parts. I would say it took me 40 hours to clean the rust on this baby but you may not even need to be taken yours apart. its a great lesson on how the machine works too.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/IMG_01961.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/IMG_01961.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/002-40.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/002-40.jpg.html)

jack
English machines

[Bruce Page]

Rick, it looks like you made out like a bandit! Those will clean up nicely with not much elbow grease!

Jack, you turned that Wadkin into MAJOR eye candy! Well done! I’d love to see more!

[Andrew Hughes]

Nice score Rick,I too am looking for a decent 12 jointer to replace my 8 inch Oliver.
Jack your restoration is excellent .Your machine look very stout.Would love to see a video of it running and jointing.Thanks for sharing your pics.

[mreza Salav]

Congrats Rick!
Jack, so did you finish restoration? any updates to that thread you started over at CWW forum? As always, excellent restoration!!!

[jack forsberg]

Congrats Rick!
Jack, so did you finish restoration? any updates to that thread you started over at CWW forum? As always, excellent restoration!!!

Mo
Matt is milling the head block to take pin molding knifes same as the shaper. As you may know the machine has a section of the cutter block to take molding knifes so its a moulder too of 12" wide x 1 1/4 deep max . its a 26" jointed over top a 24x9 planer with the old skewed knife wadkin head. you can see the infeed table tilts side to side with a T handle and that makes it a pattern maker machine for milling draft. heads 5'5 " and 150lbls with 3 double row self aliening bronzes machines cages bearings abec5. the new bearing were $800. could have got cheaper grade but that what was in the machines. took 4 month for them too.


I have a vid of the feed works running after changing the motor from the old niagra 25hrz ones. I will be putting VFD on the feed motor for slower one knifes cut . I will post it makeing chips by the end of the summer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7axuOddeBLo

jack
English machines

[Rick Fisher]

Jack..

That is .. stunning .. lol

Holy **** ..

I now want to clean those two Griggio machines up to like knew condition... other than the creepy gib style cutterheads.. life is too short .. They still won't hold a candle to that Wadkin machine.. my goodness.

Yes.. the planer motor is 7.5 hp @ 50hz .. 9hp @ 60 hz..

I have a 20amp breaker installed right now for my existing jointer.. The new jointer has an FLA of 18.8 amps.. With the feeder, it would be 20 amps.. Maxed out.. but I wonder.. I bet it would run just fine..

Andrew, I have a 12" Griggio .. which will be leaving when this 16" is restored..

[jack forsberg]

Rick an easy way to get rust off the tables is with raiser blades I mean really easy. Do it dry and vacuum it up with no mess. just give them a shave. I like Richards blades and i get boxes of 100.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/motor010.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/motor010.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/motor011.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/motor011.jpg.html)

BTW Rick your machines look hardly use. and i would not worry so much about the gib head as theses machines are not finishing machines IMO. you can pick up a big SCMI sander for the price of a head theses days. Used that is.



Jack..

That is .. stunning .. lol

Holy **** ..

I now want to clean those two Griggio machines up to like knew condition... other than the creepy gib style cutterheads.. life is too short .. They still won't hold a candle to that Wadkin machine.. my goodness.

Yes.. the planer motor is 7.5 hp @ 50hz .. 9hp @ 60 hz..

I have a 20amp breaker installed right now for my existing jointer.. The new jointer has an FLA of 18.8 amps.. With the feeder, it would be 20 amps.. Maxed out.. but I wonder.. I bet it would run just fine..

Andrew, I have a 12" Griggio .. which will be leaving when this 16" is restored..

[Rick Fisher]

Love the razor blade idea Jack..

These machines where used for less than 2 years.. I am going to post some pictures.. Amazingly clean where there is no rust.. lol

My current Jointer has a Tersa head.. I love it .. My current planer has a helical.. I love it a bit less than the Tersa. I really don't want to go backwards.. Changing Tersa knives is a joy..

Going to the Vegas woodworking show in 10 days.. Gonna shop for cutter heads... :)

I have an SCMi sander which I picked up for the price of a Tersa head... Just don't want the hassle

[Rick Fisher]

Here are some pictures of the work ahead.. Its actually pretty encouraging .. A few missing minor parts which I can order from Griggio .. but nothing crazy..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040909_zpsb355b5f3.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040909_zpsb355b5f3.jpg.html)
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040931_zpse47ac784.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040931_zpse47ac784.jpg.html)
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040920_zpsd8341d06.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040920_zpsd8341d06.jpg.html)
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040915_zps12700e91.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040915_zps12700e91.jpg.html)
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040914_zpsbc3f4829.jpg (http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/Griggio%20PF400%20and%20PSA%20520/P1040914_zpsbc3f4829.jpg.html)

[Jim Matthews]

On one hand, I'm glad that deals like this pop up at great distance from my home - I just got both cars back into the garage.

On the other hand, someone else got a smokin' deal on well-built gear.
That upsets the balance of the universe.

The fact that is was likely a Canuks fan is intolerable...

[Jim Matthews]

On one hand, I'm glad that deals like this pop up at great distance from my home - I just got both cars back into the garage.

On the other hand, someone else got a smokin' deal on well-built gear.
That upsets the balance of the universe.

A power-fed jointer the size of a battleship in a garage?

The fact that the new owner is likely a Canuks fan...

I hope Michael Buble moves next door and you can't get out of your driveway for all the paparazzi.

[Rick Fisher]

Haha.. That's funny ...

Um.. why would you park cars in a garage ?

Seems like I am missing something..

hmm..

[Jim Neeley]

Rick,

You don't mention the power that you have available in your shop. Do you have 480V 3-phase?

You mentioned 9hp and a FLA of 18.

As a rule of thumb (Ugly's book) a 7.5hp motor has a FLA of ABOUT:

11A at 480 3-phase
22A at 240 3-phase
40A at 240 single-phase (like most Americans have in our homes).

Yes, I'm aware you're Canadian and don't know what you have in your shop but...

If you have 240 single phase in your shop and were planning a VFD to step it up to the higher voltage, you'd need a larger breaker.

Also, induction motors have a large inrush of current, so often need their breakers stepped up from there in order to avoid tripping the breaker. My "5hp" Unisaw has a FLA of 20A but Delta recommends a 40A breaker to avoid tripping.

Just my $0.02.. Your mileage may vary.. :)

Jim in Alaska

[Rick Fisher]

Power is no problem.. I have about 55 amps of 220V PH-3 available. I run a Phase Perfect off a 100 amp 220V PH-1 Breaker.. The converter powers a Siemens 3 phase panel.

The present jointer is 4hp x PH-3 and has an FLA of about 11 amps.. So I installed a 20 amp breaker.. I am pretty sure the 18.8 amp motor will run on the same breaker.. The cable to the jointer is #12.

The planer will require a new 30 amp, 3 pole breaker and some #10

[jack forsberg]

rick so you have 240 3 phase of 55 amp for power but what is the voltage of the machines? your amps don't add up for 240 volt machines? do you have a transformer in the system to step up the voltage? can you show a pic of the machine tag and or motor plate information? your machines get damaged if not run on the proper voltage . what is the voltage? jack English machines

[Mike Heidrick]

Thinking he will be fine with is $9K phaseperfect 3ph panel setup LOL. Definately not a VFD.

Awesome bro. Congrats!

[Rick Fisher]

Both the machines are 230V ..

Here is an example of a 230V x PH-3 x 10hp motor .. draws 23.2 amps
http://www.baldor.com/products/specs.asp?1=1&catalog=M1510T&product=AC+Motors&family=Definite+Purpose%7Cvw_ACMotors_DefinitePurp ose&winding=09WGY015&rating=40CMB-CONT

A 230V x PH-1 x 10hp motor draws 40 amps ..

http://www.baldor.com/products/specs.asp?1=1&catalog=L3711T&product=AC+Motors&family=Single+Phase%7Cvw_ACMotors_SinglePhase&winding=37WGW578&rating=40CMB-CONT

I have a 230V x 12hp x PH-3 Motor in the shop which has an FLA of 31 amps. So a 6.5 hp motor ( Jointer ) with an FLA of 18 amps makes sense to me ..

The Baldor comparisons are newer motors and could be a bit more efficient than 12 year motors, but I expect the planer will have a total FLA of 23 amps including the drive motor ..