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steven c newman
05-17-2013, 2:48 PM
Is there a shape of a tote that YOU like? Not so much type of wood, but the shape of the tote itself? Whether it be a "Stanley" style, or a Millers Falls Style? What sets a tote off to YOUR liking? Length of horn at the top? Angle that it sits at? Too straight? Too many curves( in the tote. Mind out of the gutter, if you please), how "fat or Skinny"?


IF you were to have to buy, or make a new tote, what sort of shape works for YOU?

David Weaver
05-17-2013, 3:01 PM
Oh...totes. I like their umbrellas.

Especially the folding golf size - that's my favorite shape.

http://www.totes-isotoner.com/product/totes-sport-golf-auto-open-close-folding-umbrella.do?CAWELAID=530006830000004704&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CMnG6bfpnbcCFdKd4AodMRUAbA

Andrew Nemeth
05-17-2013, 4:58 PM
I'm a relative noob on the neander side but I do seem to prefer the Stanley totes. LN totes are very similar and I like them as well but they do not seem to be as contoured as an old Stanley with some wear on it. I have not been a big fan of the LV totes, too vertical and not contoured nearly enough. My hands are realativly large, and I find I have to grip all of the smaller totes with three fingers wrapped around and my a index finger wrapped around the front of the cap iron. With all this being said, I have never used a plane for more than 30 min continuously, so I would weight my opinion accordingly.

David Weaver
05-17-2013, 5:01 PM
Old stanley would be my favorites, except for the every once in a while tote that you get that is shaped like the spine of a starving person.

Some of the millers falls are fine, too, but on the larger planes, some of the bulky later totes aren't as nice to use.

I LOVED the LN cocobolo totes. First "real" plane I had was a LN 6 with cocobolo. I've never had trouble with the cherry totes, but they're unbecoming on a plane that costs several hundred

Zander Kale
05-17-2013, 6:32 PM
I like "clothes iron" totes, angled between 40° & 45°, which is way more laid down than Stanley. It seems much more ergonomic for the way I use a plane. I also like them about 1 1/4" thick with a "wasp waist" because my grip at my pinky is much smaller than at my first two fingers. For Stanley style totes, I'll frequently file back the part of the top front (where my first finger wraps), which makes them much more comfortable.
http://zkprojectnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/iron-maiden2.jpg?w=600

On this Ohio transitional, you can see how much I tilted the tote forward (and it is still way too upright) and sorta see how I filed/rounded off the upper left of the tote.
http://zkprojectnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/side2.jpg?w=600

steven c newman
05-17-2013, 7:28 PM
Mine tend to be older stanley style ones262489262490or Union ones. Lately though, the Millers Falls seems to be growing on me262491and, there is this "newcomer"262492I also tend to like them on the "fat" side, as "Uncle Arthur (itis) has played heck with my grip on things. Blue Estwing hammers tend to fly away from my hand......

Derek Cohen
05-17-2013, 10:06 PM
Best shape for a handle? What about no handle as well?

A favourite topic of mine - the melding of form and function, ergonomics and aesthetics.

For all handles, form follows function. There are many variables to consider. For plane handles I would argue that bench height (relative to your own height) plays a big role.

High benches ask more of a "push forward" than the "push downward" of a lower bench. Th LV upright handles are excellent on high benches. When I built a lower bench, the more forward-leaning Stanley-type handle became more comfortable.

Here is a custom upright LV handle:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/LVLAS2.jpg

And here are Stanley-type handles (shaped by Bill Rittner) on other LV planes ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/NewHandles2.jpg

No handle is also an option, particularly in a low centre-of-effort plane. This aids in driving the plane forward. Their is still an angle in the "no-handle", and the slope or no-slope will affect how the plane works for you.

This is comfortable since the plane is bevel up has a low centre of gravity.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/GalootSmootherII_html_765e5afe.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/GalootSmootherII_html_m26d32203.jpg

Jim Krenov did not arrive at this shape by chance ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaKrenovSmoother_html_m1038799f.png

The old woodies used a thicker section low down to (my interpretation) lift the hand into the underside of the horn. This increases control in heavier planes. I have been doing the same for my backsaws and love it ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/CoopersJointer_html_m639901bb.jpg

I followed that through into an open handle for a jack plane as well ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaJackPlane_html_ma7dc66e.jpg

Hope some of this means something and helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

george wilson
05-17-2013, 10:45 PM
What do you do in a few years,when those short Krenov style blades get worn so short they do not protrude,and are inaccessible to tap on?

Andrew Nemeth
05-17-2013, 10:48 PM
High benches ask more of a "push forward" than the "push downward" of a lower bench. Th LV upright handles are excellent on high benches. When I built a lower bench, the more forward-leaning Stanley-type handle became more comfortable.


Good point Derek. I've never really thought about work height vs. the angle of the tote but it makes sense. I'm 6'3" and almost all the benches and work surfaces I have used seem short to me. It might be why I prefer a more aggressive lean on totes. The vertical totes on the LV planes have pushed me towards LN as much as I want to like the LV planes.

Derek Cohen
05-17-2013, 11:10 PM
What do you do in a few years,when those short Krenov style blades get worn so short they do not protrude,and are inaccessible to tap on?

Why George, get a new Hock blade of couse :)

You know I'm teasing, but it is interesting from two points. Firstly, my recall is that Krenov started making this design using old Stanley block plane blades. That might sugest that the plane design developed from the blade length. But he also used to cut down old Stanley bench plane blades as well, so perhaps the design is deliberate and he chose blades to fit. I would ascribe to that theory. The low body offers a lot of feedback.

The second issue is that a long blade in a low body like this feels wrong. There is a little bit of unbalancing, and a little bit of discomfort. I've tried various lengths, and keep the short ones.

I know that you find them uncomfortable to hold. The need to open the hand does demand more strength. So far - touch wood - I am not affected by the arthritis my father suffers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
05-17-2013, 11:40 PM
My hands are realativly large, and I find I have to grip all of the smaller totes with three fingers wrapped around and my a index finger wrapped around the front of the cap iron.

I was always told to use a three-fingered grip on planes, although I don't wrap around the cap iron.

On smaller planes, like my number 4, I like to use more of a "pushing" grip, where I'm not really wrapping around the thing at all - sort of an open handed grip like you might use on a coffin smoother.

I've used 4 handles between 2 number 7 size planes now (and my number 7 is probably my most used size) and the most comfortable I've used has been the one Bill Rittner made. A bit much, but worth it. The sort of elliptical cross-section (as opposed to just rounded over like with a router bit or just rough hand work) fills the hand very nicely.

Winton Applegate
05-18-2013, 12:26 AM
I had an interesting experience or two with totes that opened my eyes.
aesthetically I enjoy the LN totes. So all that curve must be better / more comfortable and the kind of straight and boring totes on the Varitas planes are just to save time and money in production right ?


Well
For my first years of serious every day hand plane work I found the large beautifully curvy tote on the LN bevel up jack plane to put a consistent bruised feeling in my palm . My many other LN planes didn't do this to me.
The straightish Varitas totes specifically on the wide bevel up smoother and the #7 bevel up jointer never once caused any pain or discomfort.
I still don't know why.
Often I considered taking my #49 Nicholson rasp to the LN handle but would at the brink stay my hand. I had no Idea how to fix the problem. Finally after a few years the pain went away. Like the Borg I must have adapted. (resistance is futile. We will assimilate your uniqueness into our collective.) (and all like that)


Yah I was going through my bevel up phase. I have, with tutoring from Larry Williams, opened my eyes to steep bedded bevel downs.
Still , the pull of my Varitas BU wide smoother is strong. God I love that plane. It's my "If I were to be ship wrecked on a desert island with only one plane " plane.
That is assuming a few containers of gnarly purple heart, bubinga and assorted other "problem" woods were also washed up on the beach with me.

PS: Hey, I am kind of liking the sound of this. All I would need is the occasional case of ice cream and woodworking magazines to accidentally fall out of a few air planes and I would be all set.

Derek Cohen
05-18-2013, 1:38 AM
Lots to respond to in your post, Winton.

I've been writing recently about "feel" and "feedback" and designing tools - or choosing tools - for feel. The following is a copy of some of my thoughts (since I cannot cross link).

What is "feel"? I think of this as the feedback you receive when the blade hits the wood. You know exactly what is going on at the coal face. It is akin to driving a big Cadillac with so much suspension that you float over the road never knowing whether there are bumps or potholes .... versus .... a Morgan, with its wooden chasis and hard suspension and direct steering. Made to go fast, and not great on the road, but completely involving.

In my experience the difference in feedback varies in part with the centre of gravity. The further from the work surface, the lower the feedback. Conversely, the lower the centre of gravity, the greater the feedback. In part, feedback also depends on the "centre of effort". C of E is a yachting term to refer to the action of the wind on the sail - where it places it force ... low or high on the sail. Pressure at the top of the sail is different to pressure at the bottom of the sail. In a similar manner, force directed at the low end of the blade creates more stability and controlled power. For this reason, a plane with a low centre of gravity requires less effort to push than a plane with a high centre of gravity, for example, a traditional jointer versus a razee jointer ...

http://www.antiqbuyer.com/images/ARCHIVE_PICS/archivetools/PLANE-A/Wood/jmh_patplane.jpg

http://www.dlbarrettandsons.com/Razee_Jointer_2_op_800x440.jpg

This is the reason I build razee woodies ... and yet I often return to the LV BU Jointer ... (Sounding familiar, Winton? :) )

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointe r_html_f1780fb.jpg

Add to the equation a plane with a low centre of effort - a bevel up plane is an example of this - and you will understand their attractiveness to many. They are easy to push and easy to control.

I think that the point to make is that feedback and feel may be accounted for by a number of factors, only one of which is the kinesthetic. For some it is visual. For others it is the sound the tool makes on wood.

It is probably not possible to focus on one of these modalities to the exclusion of the others, but likely one be in the foreground, the others remain in the background, as priorities determine. For example, as mentioned before, a high sided jointer or a wide plate saw will offer feedback about the vertical, however these are not desired each and every time. I built two smoothers recently, both with a 55 degree bed, and the same length. One is a classic coffin (high) and the other a classic Krenov (low). They work equally well. My preference is the latter, which indicates that I place greater focus on the kinesthetic than visual when planing.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Planesforthe2013PerthLNToolEvent_html_m3d82ebde.jp g

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Planesforthe2013PerthLNToolEvent_html_3aef626c.jpg

There are other examples I could include from the world of router planes and backsaws, but I will leave those for another time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Matthews
05-18-2013, 6:59 AM
Ah the Morgan...

The pinnacle of British design, sure to please both the holders of spanners and insecticide for a living.

I've been handling a #4 this week and can't say I've noticed the handles at all.

That would indicate the shape is right for me, at this size.

Otherwise I tend toward the vestigial "saddle" offered on the ECE wood body planes, it seems that the lack of a high grip keeps me from steering with the drive hand and that keeps my center of mass closer to the work at hand.

I think a high rear tote is most useful when planing away from the front of my bench, as it extends my reach.

Metod Alif
05-18-2013, 11:37 AM
Krenov planes opened my eyes to the possibility of non-vertical totes. I experimented for a while till I 'found' a 'horizontal' grip. My LNs are for me still great performance standards, but not anymore ergonomic ones.
Fine for both, metal and wooden versions.
Best wishes,
Metod

jason thigpen
05-18-2013, 2:35 PM
I really enjoy the Lee Valley totes. So much in fact, that I incorporated it into a razee jack plane I'm building right now. The handle fits just right in my hand. I understand that aesthetically, it's not the prettiest thing around. But comfort and function are my two highest priorities when it comes to tools.

Caspar Hauser
05-18-2013, 3:03 PM
I think I've posted this plane before http://www.handplane.com/906/the-ancient-roman-plane-of-yorkshire-wolds/ but I thought it might be of interest here.

There was a thread recently in which a member was experimenting with this type of grip.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?202657-Pictures-as-promissed

steven c newman
05-18-2013, 4:36 PM
Nobody has said anything about a "pistol grip" style???262549262550Maybe one out of walnut??? ( Don't laugh, I have seen one...)

george wilson
05-18-2013, 5:15 PM
As a general rule,any grip,especially one on a knife,which is so fitted to the hand that it makes it difficult,or uncomfortable to hold in different positions,is not a good idea. On a plane,where you don't hold the tote in different positions,it is not that much of an issue. Personally,I like the feel of a plain tote,though.

Chris Griggs
05-18-2013, 5:51 PM
I like the older Stanley's and the earlier Miller Falls (Types 1-3). I'm not as big of fan of the later MF handles which IIRC, is what the LV handles are modeled after. I'm okay with LV handles, but on my LA jack I would prefer something less upright and little more eased around the edges...what I do like about the LV handles is their girth, its a nice sized chunk of wood to hold onto. Of the planes in my shop my favorite handle is probably my MF 14 (type 3 I think). Its got some nice girth to it and and leans forward a little more than my old Stanley's and has a curve to it that isn't too little or too much. I've found LN handles to be awfully nice too, when I used them at shows, but I don't own any LN bench planes so I can't speak about them in much detail.