Disappointed with Grobet USA Files

[David Weaver]

The search continues for a decent reasonably priced taper saw files. I have three or four saws to file, and they all need just a little tooth correction.

I also wanted to stash away a few files, as I've generally been using the mexican nicholsons. While those are soft, at least they are reasonably consistently made with clean teeth.

To say the edges on the grobet USA files are inconsistent would be polite to say the least. Of the dozen 5 inch files I got, the edges look anything to broken, to variable in with to one of the files that the teeth look like they were practically sanded off on the edges. The dozen of 6 inch files aren't any better.

I have one more pack of files coming (the retailer told me they were on back order after i ordered them...thanks a lot), 7 inch regular taper for my 4 point rip saws, I hope they're better than the small ones.

I'll post pictures of them tonight. A couple of them look OK, but you should get one bad one and 11 good ones at most, not 3 bad ones, 6 semi crappy ones and 3 that look OK.

Of the india files I've gotten so far, I like the simonds red tang the best, but they are also really nothing to write home about. They are just acceptable. What's wrong with the people making these files, can't they even look at what they're making?

[Chris Griggs]

I too have been disappointed to get a few Grobets where the edges looked pretty bad...they still work way better and last longer than BORG Nicholsons but I had expected better from Grobet.

[David Weaver]

Hopefully, I'll be pleasantly surprised when using the ones that are marginal looking. I'm not much of one to send things back, because usually you just end up wasting a whole bunch of time and then you get replacements that are every bit as crappy.

[george wilson]

Bahco files are reportedly still good files.

[David Weaver]

I should state outright for anyone who has ever ordered Grobet USA files, there is nothing USA about them. They are made in india (I knew that before I ordered them, though, that's just an FYI thing).

[David Weaver]

Bahco files are reportedly still good files.

I wonder if anyone sells them for a reasonable price by the dozen. I hate ordering a couple of files and then paying a large percentage of the cost to ship them.

[Bryan Ericson]

What was the final consensus about the Harbor Freight files? George was pretty pleased with them, but I haven't seen much about them since he started the thread about a year ago.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189121-Testing-a-Harbor-Freight-hand-file-Good-News!

[David Weaver]

I think those were mill files.

[David Weaver]

I can recall the bahco files now that I've seen a picture of them. I don't know if they come from anywhere other than portugal, but I did use and like a couple of the portugal origin saw files. I haven't the slightest clue where they came from, though.

I got grobet swiss from McMaster carr for about $4.50 a while ago, but with mcmaster, you don't get brand consistency and that was only in the very small files. There's no guarantee you wouldn't get nicholson mexico if you ordered from them now, so I wouldn't chance it.

[David Weaver]

I just ordered a dozen bahco files from SJ discount tool (found via google search). I'll post back here when I find out if they are the good portugal files, they were about $5 each, and the shipping is $9, so it would be good to know if they're any good before anyone orders a large amount that would justify the shipping costs.

[Bill Fleming]

What about the Swiss made Grobet files sold by LN or LV, or are they only shipping those made in other locations to USA now?

Cheers - Bill

[David Weaver]

Those are good files. I just don't favor their price..

.. let me expand on that.

I hold some files in case I buy an old saw and the teeth need to be adjusted. Otherwise, once a saw is in good shape, I could stretch a decent saw file for at least 10 sharpenings as long as I don't get into this goofiness of heavy jointing every time you file a saw.

But when you're restoring a saw that needs its teeth to be moved around, you tend to be a little more heavy handed, and the price difference between the good files and the great files just doesn't materialize, especially on older saws that might have a hard patch from uneven hardening, and torch an expensive file in a few pushes.

Other folks might have different experience refurbishing saws, but it's something I kind of like to do to a less cosmetically perfect level than other folks do. (cosmetics have nothing to do with the files, though), and on a long saw that needs teeth adjusted badly, you might go through two or three files. That's uncommon, it's more like one, but i did have a saw where I went through three grobet swiss - a spear and jackson that doesn't have the most even hardening in the world.

So I like the good files vs the great files. They prove themselves economically both in heavy use and in light touch-up filing.

[Gary Herrmann]

Vintage US made files seem to hard to find these days too.

[george wilson]

I would PREFER good,USA made Nicholsons,but they are gone. The Harbor Freight files are a bit too coarse to suit me,but at least they seem to have decently cut teeth,and are hard. I use the ones i bought for coarser filing. They probably have some finer files. I saw one,but it was in a group you had to buy. I don't live that close to a HF store,and can't keep track of their stuff that well. Haven't been to one since I posted the evaluation of the HF file. Lowe's has their Kobalt files,Chinese made. They are likely hard,too,though I hate that hexagonal tang you are supposed to plug into their ugly plastic handles. If desperate enough,I'd heat the blasted tang,and forge it into a proper tang. the heat would only run a short distance up the file,where it isn't really used. or,I could belt grind it into a decent tang.

Why am I so resistant to change? Because I know I'll be replaced. I just want to be replaced by SOMETHING!!!!!

There are still plenty of files on Ebay.

[Mel Fulks]

This subject has prompted me to look up the number of saw files produced by the Peter Stubbs company in England. In 1800 they made 183,468 ,in 1830 they made 666,888. All hand cut. They were considered the best and had some problems with counterfeits. They have turned up NOS,anyone here ever had the chance to try one?

[David Weaver]

I have definitely never found a vintage file around here that wasn't used to death. nearly 700k hand cut files is unreal, but even at that, I'll bet they were really expensive and used long after we'd throw ours out now. Most of the older files I've seen around here (that probably were used in tool and die shops, or jobber shops) are so worn out they barely even abrade wood.

[David Weaver]

Bahco files came yesterday. They are superbly cut compared to the grobets, and the teeth are little bit more coarse on them. I hope they work as good as they look, because I can't fault anything about them at all visually. I've had the bahcos before half a decade ago, but I don't remember what I thought about them in use, and I was probably heavy handed enough at that time trying to restore saws quickly that none of the files lasted that well.

Price on the bahcos was an issue for me. A lot of places want big bucks, and when I was looking, google linked up a paul sellers post that said that they were about $16.50 in the UK, but he had very high marks for their performance in use.

There is a site called autotoolworld that came up through google and between 10 4 inch x slim files and and 10 7 inch slim taper files, the average price was about $4.50 per. A total steal for how well they are cut.

The only catch is auto tool world wrote me back after my order (I ordered a half dozen of each) and said they were only available in quantities of 10, which turns out to be the bahco box size. I don't care, for that price, I'd have taken 20 if that was the minimum order.

No affiliation, just a place that satisfied my drive for thrift. I did have a back and forth via email with auto-tool-world when I ordered (where they said they weren't stocking the files, but I could order through one of their sister sites if I was willing to go with 10 files per size) and they were courteous and there was no funny business.

(and, btw, they are drop shipping as far as I can tell, as my box actually said "williams tool" on it. I'd go right to the source, as that's a part of snap on, and the auto tool world site is pretty hard to navigate, but I can't find anything going that route).

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,David. I was wondering if anyone had seen my post. The numbers were just for the files made for saw sharpening ,but they also made other kinds. They were shipped in small bundles wrapped in paper and tied with string.I know I saw some for sale,don't remember where.

[David Weaver]

Would you use them if you found them? If I found three, I'd probably have to use one and keep the other two.

[Mike Allen1010]

Those are good files. I just don't favor their price..

.. let me expand on that.

I hold some files in case I buy an old saw and the teeth need to be adjusted. Otherwise, once a saw is in good shape, I could stretch a decent saw file for at least 10 sharpenings as long as I don't get into this goofiness of heavy jointing every time you file a saw.

But when you're restoring a saw that needs its teeth to be moved around, you tend to be a little more heavy handed, and the price difference between the good files and the great files just doesn't materialize, especially on older saws that might have a hard patch from uneven hardening, and torch an expensive file in a few pushes.

Other folks might have different experience refurbishing saws, but it's something I kind of like to do to a less cosmetically perfect level than other folks do. (cosmetics have nothing to do with the files, though), and on a long saw that needs teeth adjusted badly, you might go through two or three files. That's uncommon, it's more like one, but i did have a saw where I went through three grobet swiss - a spear and jackson that doesn't have the most even hardening in the world.

So I like the good files vs the great files. They prove themselves economically both in heavy use and in light touch-up filing.

Hi David,

I share your view that good files (versus great files) prove himself economically and practically, particularly in heavy use where it's not uncommon to go through 2-3 files when re-profiling the tooth line is necessary before sharpening.

I have also been disappointing lately in the quality of the Grobet "USA" files, particularly those I've received over the past 6-9 months. Seems like the hardness/quality has changed and the teeth on the apex of the file breakdown more quickly than I remember them doing in the past. Coincidentally, although I find the Mexican made Nicholson files to generally be for, I have had a few recently that have been surprisingly decent.

I went through a period of using vintage USA made files (Nicholson, Simonds, Heller etc.) that I found on the mega-auction site. Although few of them were truly fantastic (last a long time and left a very smooth finish), I found the quality of the NOS USA made vintage files was really inconsistent so I've gone back to contemporary files.

I've recently gone through a couple boxes of Grobet USA, Pferd and Bahco files and had a chance to compare them on the same saws. I found the Bahco to be by far the best and they have become my "go to" files for hand saws.

For the finer pitch backsaws I like the Grobet Swiss made files-- although they're expensive, they work very well and the smaller sizes are more readily available. I justify the higher cost because files last longer sharpening the thinner plate backsaws.

Just wanted to pass along my observations FWIW.

All the best, Mike

BTW, good luck with the kitchen cabinets I believe you're working on. I'm very much looking forward to seeing some pictures.

You've inspired me to "consider" replacing our kitchen cabinets, although without a tablesaw the thought of sawing up all that plywood doesn't sound very appealing! Probably the biggest issue for me is the LOML is by far the pickiest customer I've ever had and I could see this project turning into a real "marriage tester"! It would be a shame to risk 30 years of wedded bliss over "creative differences", although wouldn't be the first time!

[David Weaver]

I like the grobet swiss, too. I am a notorious cheap ____ when it comes to files, for exactly the reason you said. If a saw comes with a frown, it might easily be two entire files that you go through, and I have used as many as three. Even a full joint and small follow up joint to correct teeth is a full file. It would chap my rear to buy a $16 saw (which is what my last spectacular S&J fine toothed carpenter's saw ran) and burn through $30 of files to get it in shape (it blew out three swiss grobets, but mcmaster was providing them at $5 a pop -though McM doesn't specify brand and they definitely don't always provide the same thing).

I have also had OK service from the nicholson files. they are not inspiring by any means, but if I'm using a slim taper file, I can usually get by fine with the ones that are $4 at home depot as long as they are not being forced to file an unusually hard saw. I have still been buying those, anyway, but will not in the future if i can continue to get these bahcos for $4.50. I expected opening the box to see a small inconsistency here or there, but really, they are machined perfectly.

To add insult for the grobets, the way they were packed, the dividing paper that is in the box is there, but the files are not packed with it woven between them, they are just under it and the outside of the files show visible minor wear from rubbing against each other. I'm sure it's superficial, but it's ugly. The paper in the bahco boxes protected the files they way it should and they are picture perfect.

As far as the cabinets go, if you have anything at all in your kitchen layout that's out of the ordinary, and if price vs. quality is a consideration at all, making them is definitely the way to go. I didn't have a TS until a couple of weeks ago, and honestly, I could make them fine with handsaws (actually, the first one was made entirely with hand saws). A router makes life easy if you fit them with dados and so far the only iffy part of the process has been the realization that fitting together a dadoed kitchen cabinet has to be done extremely extremly quickly if you're using cheap PVA glue and you want to make any adjustments. If your wife gets a sense of satisfaction from the fact that you're sacrificing your time to do the cabinets for her, then that's even more icing on the cake.

[Izzy Camire]

I just got some Nicholson mill files from Enco. The box said made in Brazil. They look ok for what they are but I am not sure how long they will hold up. Where are the good old American made files?

[David Weaver]

There are none. But if you're looking for mill files and you're not in a huge hurry, watch ebay. You will often find old simonds (maybe some of the simonds are still US made) files NOS on ebay, or other brands that are not super vintage. The files that are really vintage on ebay are sold by hucksters at absurd prices.

A half dozen 10 year old simonds files that cost the same as one new euro file though, that's good stuff.

(and keep your eyes peeled for USA nicholsons at small off-the-beaten-path hardware stores whenever you're coasting around different places)

[Izzy Camire]

Dave, thanks for ideas on where to find good ol American made files.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Some comparisons.

My experience to date is using the Swiss-made Grobet from LN (USA). I have a couple double extra slim 4" left, and now looking for more in this size. I may just get the same again. They are cheap enough ($5 each plus shipping to Oz) compared to other offerings. Lee Valley sell them at $6.50 each. Locally, LN (Australia) sell the Vallorbe, which are $11 (but no international shipping). And from the UK I could get the Bahco ($12 plus shipping). Amazon (USA) wants $56 (plus shipping) for a 10-pack.

Do you, or anyone, have a view on the Vallorbe files?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pinwu Xu]

I like the grobet swiss, too. I am a notorious cheap ____ when it comes to files, for exactly the reason you said. If a saw comes with a frown, it might easily be two entire files that you go through, and I have used as many as three. Even a full joint and small follow up joint to correct teeth is a full file. It would chap my rear to buy a $16 saw (which is what my last spectacular S&J fine toothed carpenter's saw ran) and burn through $30 of files to get it in shape (it blew out three swiss grobets, but mcmaster was providing them at $5 a pop -though McM doesn't specify brand and they definitely don't always provide the same thing).


Thanks, this is invaluable! All the saw filing tutorials covered the technique, but rarely you read about the these consumables (same goes true for sand papers,
sharpening stones, etc.) and a new person would be surprised how fast a file went dull and worried if he's using it the in-proper way.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Try MSC, as they do a good job of stating country of origin and quality level.

[Charles Bjorgen]

A bit off topic from the original post but I wonder if anyone has ever used the vinegar/citric acid treatments to add some working life to these small saw files?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Do you, or anyone, have a view on the Vallorbe files?


I thought these were the Swiss Grobets in disguise?

[george wilson]

Grobet bought out Vallorbe.

[David Weaver]

I figured if anyone would've bought vallorbes, it would be george. Most of the places I've seen them, IIRC, is machinist and jeweler supply places (jewelers and swiss pattern files, not taper saw files). I don't think I've ever used one, but never saw anything bad about them, either. Did pete taran or one of the other places offer them? I think I remember seeing them somewhere for a high price, but I don't remember where and since I probably restore a saw for every one that I maintenance sharpen, I can't afford expensive files (no file lasts well removing a lot of material).

Grobet swiss at $5 each for small files seems like the way to go, as long as you can get enough to make the shipping worthwhile. If I didn't reshape teeth on saws or remove out of-straight toothlines, I'd be less inclined to care so much about life vs. cost. I think I could probably get 10 filings out of a decent file if it was just a quick maintenance filing vs. a heavy joint and a lot of metal removed.

[David Weaver]

I got some correspondence from B2B about the grobets (the non swiss). I had some files that ended up being on backorder, and I cancelled them. They wanted to know how the bad files were marked so they could determine their origin. They also told me (if I read it right) that grobet USA files have gone to china because of quality problems with India files.

One of the boxes clearly stated "made in india". The other box had no reference to origin and neither did the files in either box. I hold b2b at no fault for any of the issues, they were pleasant and refunded my money for the backorder files. AS far as grobet (the company) goes, though, they need to clearly identify the origin of their files either on the file or on the box. I can't see how it's even legal not to.

Moving production to china to solve quality problems is an interesting concept.... but sooner or later, someone should be making quality files in china. Maybe it will be them.

In general, it seems like there almost needs to be a ticker tape describing the quality of each brand of files at last purchase. Otherwise, there is so much information out there about grobet non-swiss being decent files, etc, that will come up if someone searches, and the change seems to be so fast that you can easily spend a C-note on some files to find out they're not what you expected.

[David Barnett]

I rather prefer the saw files from F. Dick, although it's been a long while since I bought any. I'm happy enough with Grobet/Vallorbe but most of my Grobets never touch steel.

Bought several boxes of vintage new stock Nicholsons from Patrick Leach years ago—worlds apart from todays' Nicholson Shaped Objects and in patterns and cuts not seen since WWII, with some pre-dating WWI. How have the mighty fallen.

http://www.dick.de/en/files-and-rasps/engineers-files/saw-files/

More a lament than an informational post, I suppose, but there you have it—I've made my moan.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm new to saw sharpening. Hoping to get the Veritas Saw File Holder but do you simply get a file to match the Points per Inch on your saw and get on with it?

How long will a file last? I quite like the Veritas set that includes 7 files and a nice canvas wrap bag but if I need to keep buying files then perhaps I should rather look at purchasing in bulk.

[David Weaver]

You can go through an entire file to a few files if you have to do major rework on a saw.

If you're just filing a saw that is already in good shape and that is just mildly dull, you could probably use the same file half a dozen to a dozen times (or more) if you don't do an unnecessary hard jointing to the teeth.

The lists from different places will not give you a clear answer on what files you need, at least not a singly appropriate answer (which you can tell for sure because they will have conflicting suggestions).

You might do well to get the assortment of files so you can see what files feel good to you in the saws that you have, and save buying in bulk until you know which files you go through quickly. Otherwise, you might get a dozen files that you will use little or never.

The veritas guide is a nice little contraption (that I've never used), and would be useful if you don't want to make your own references and guide blocks. As a beginner, you will definitely get much better results if you set your rake angle with a guide block and use something to keep your fleam (or desired lack of) constant. Also, make sure when you make your file stroke, you do it perpendicular to the saw. That sounds like common sense, but it might take a couple of saws before you don't catch yourself filing uphill or something. Use the "go slow to finish fast" rule for your first few.

[Chris Griggs]

The set from LV is nice to have around and the roll is handy. That way, you have all the sizes you'll ever need. There are some that you will likely never or rarely need, but you'll have them when you need them. There are others that you will use a lot and go through and end up buying multiples of. FWIW, I use 6" xxslim and 4" xxslim FAR more than any other file sizes.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

[Lloyd Robins]

David, were you able to find the 4" XX-slim file at Auto Tool World. I have not been able to locate it on site. Thanks.

[Tony Shea]

I rather prefer the saw files from F. Dick, although it's been a long while since I bought any. I'm happy enough with Grobet/Vallorbe but most of my Grobets never touch steel.

Bought several boxes of vintage new stock Nicholsons from Patrick Leach years ago—worlds apart from todays' Nicholson Shaped Objects and in patterns and cuts not seen since WWII, with some pre-dating WWI. How have the mighty fallen.

http://www.dick.de/en/files-and-rasps/engineers-files/saw-files/

More a lament than an informational post, I suppose, but there you have it—I've made my moan.

Maybe it's just me but I cannot figure out how to place an order for these Dick files. Can they be purchased through this site or do I need to find them elsewhere. I have never even heard of the company but they seem to make good quality knives if nothing else.

[David Weaver]

David, were you able to find the 4" XX-slim file at Auto Tool World. I have not been able to locate it on site. Thanks.

No, I don't believe that it's there, and will need to be gotten from somewhere else.

[Kees Heiden]

finetools.de sells the Dick files. But they are not exactly cheap. And I guess shipping them to the USA is costly. I am pretty happy with them, they are very hard.

http://www.fine-tools.com/euroscha.htm

[Jack Curtis]

Maybe it's just me but I cannot figure out how to place an order for these Dick files. Can they be purchased through this site or do I need to find them elsewhere. I have never even heard of the company but they seem to make good quality knives if nothing else.

That link is from the old Dick site, from which you can no longer order. They are now called Dictum and here's the link to the rasps/files section: http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/category/Raspeln-Feilen-3871_3638.htm

[Lloyd Robins]

Thank you, David. I will try elsewhere for the XX-slims.

[David Barnett]

One should, however, distinguish Friedr. DICK GmbH & Co., Esslingen/Deizisau, the older file and knife manufacturer, from Dictum GmbH (previously Dick, shortened from HERDIM, for Hermann Dick Markneukirchen), the musical instrument & woodworking tool seller, who sells F.D.® and Glardon/Vallorbe files, among others. They are not the same company.

So the link I provided, http://www.dick.de/en/files-and-rasp...les/saw-files/ (http://www.dick.de/en/files-and-rasps/engineers-files/saw-files/), is current and not from the now-defunct Dick woodworking tools website in its current incarnation as Dictum. Again, not the same company. Add the ingrown nomenclature, locations, acquisitions and distribution arrangements of certain intermingled German, French and Swiss filemakers and you have the stuff to challenge forensic genealogists. Are my Habilis files or yellow-tanged gravers Grobet Freres in Vallorbe, Switzerland? Or Glardon/Vallorbe—Usines Métallurgiques de Vallorbe? "Who's on first?" Right.

Other than their jeweler's files (Friedrich Dick's "precision files" line*) from Rio Grande, the jeweler's supplier in Albuquerque...

http://media1.riogrande.com/virtual_catalogs/2013/tools/index.html#72,

...I have no idea where to find F. Dick saw files (from their "engineer's files" line) in the USA. As Friedr. Dick culinary products are sold in the USA, it might be best to contact them at:

Friedr. Dick Corp., Farmingdale, NY, 1-800-554-3425, customerservice@fdick.us.

Hope this helps. If it doesn't, you might look into Pferd saw files, another German manufacturer, whose files are available in the USA.

https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201b/201b03/index.html

I've not used their saw files so cannot offer a recommendation based on direct experience. I can attest to the quality of their Swiss pattern machinist's files, however.

Sounds like the Bahco/Sandvik files are going to be the best deal around—at any rate, the least confusing or challenging to buy—so am eager to hear how they perform for David W, after he's had more time to evaluate them, not that I'll ever need to order more saw files in my lifetime.

*German precision files are graded differently from Swiss pattern files, by the way. Again, more room for confusion.

[Daryl Weir]

Hey David,

I've been recommending Bahcos for quite some time now but it can be tough to get people to listen. http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/content/finding-files-and-other-saw-sharpening-tips I realize they are not as easy to buy as some other brands. If anyone is interested, I have ordered them by the box for a reasonable price, from this distributor Engman-Taylor Company, Inc. 309-694-0292, Peoria, IL. I have no affiliation with them, just a satisfied customer. Maybe they could even lead you to some other supplier closer to your area?

I think you'll be pleased with the Bahcos. Those are my goto files for "new" stock and I have had them actually file saws that even the old stock Nicholsons didn't do well on, such as the initital filing of all new teeth in a harder Disston Acme 120. I had ordered some Bahcos quite a few years back because of ever increasing poor quality from Nicholson. Pete Taran was selling them before he switched to Grobet and hailed them as the longest lasting and sharpest files he had come across. When I tried them I couldn't have agreed more. He switched to Grobet because of spotty availability on the Bachos? It was after I purchased them form Pete, I started searching for a supplier because of the quantity of files I use and to get the price down.

The first lot I orderd from Engman-Taylor had no issues what so ever and that included all the sizes I needed. The second lot had a soft box of 6" xx-slims. I could file the very point of the file (not the softer tang) with another file and that should never happen, it should just skate off of it. I received two bad boxes of "soft" files from them until I finally got a good box. Engman-Taylor worked well with me as I sent them pictures and told them what was going on. The factory rep agreed with me possibly because I knew what I was talking about?

There are many times I can reshape the teeth with 1 edge on a Bahco. This is not a little reshaping but quite a bit of metal removing. I've even been able to file all new teeth in, say 8ppi, on a 26" Disston No.12 with 1 edge and sometimes start into the sharpening part. After that I'll usually go through "almost" another edge with the final sharpening. That edge can usually be used on the start of another reshaping process before it's not usable.

The Swiss made Grobets I tried were just too brittle for my liking. The apex was very prone to chipping on the ones I purchased anyway. I admit to being hard on a file because of all the vintage saws I restore usually are out of joint, have very poorly shaped teeth, are rusty in the gullet and the amount of steel I have to remove to get them back in order takes it toll on a file. I'm sure the Grobets would last well on just touching up a well maintained saw.

While fairly inexpensive, I was just not that impressed with the "Indian" made U.S.A. Grobets. Again, they would probably work O.K. on just touching up a saw that's in good order.

I've pretty much been in manufacturing all of my working life and find it hard to believe we cannot make a good file in this country, it's kind of sad really. Part of it is just plain greed and the other part is most people wouldn't know a good file if they used one and the corporations are well aware of that. If Joe Blow goes out, buys a file to do a particular job, it'll probably last for that one job and that's all the guy will use it for, ever. So I believe the corporations have made them for that "one time use" purchaser.

If you can find NOS files, they will usually work very well in most cases. Look for the older boxes of Nicholson like I have pictured. The box on the far right, with is taller, I would stay away from even thought it says Made in U.S.A. This is about the time quality started becoming spotty.

263499263500263501263502263503

[Gary Herrmann]

Be careful when purchasing on the bay. I recently bought a box of "NOS 5" xx slim files made in the US." I asked if the files were stamped made in the USA. Seller said yes.

So I bought them. They arrived yesterday. They're going back today. Definitely NOT made in the US. The box says US, just not made in the US. In the fine print I found Mexico.

I'm giving the seller the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know where to look.

[David Weaver]

AT this point, I haven't seen anything on ebay at all that makes stuff worth purchasing there - in terms of taper saw files, at least.

If you want pillar files or barrette files or things for metalwork, that's where you can make some hay there. But saw files are overpriced there, and if you have to buy any quantity, it's better to go to the folks who are either importing a brand or who are drop shipping.

[george wilson]

I wish Vallorbes were still made. I bought a set of vallorbe 4" needle files years ago from Gesswein. They have very coarse teeth for such small files,and I value them very much for wood especially. Some years later,I decided to get more sets from Gesswein. They sent 4" Grobets. The teeth were MUCH smaller,not what I was expecting or wanting. They told me that Grobet had taken over Vallorbe. Unfortunately, they didn't make them exactly the same. I have no idea of the year these events happened.

Vallorbe was an old company. I have a few very old Vallorbes that are beautifully made,and even have little,precise nicks along their tangs to give a better grip in the handle. You know they're old when they have nicks on the tangs.

[Brett Gregory]

For the past 5 weeks I have been doing exhaustive research on Saw Files, with a view to solving the current problems once and for all (i.e. get some proper files made again - it's nowhere near as hard as you might think)


This is a (genuine) Swiss manufactured Needle File. Note the grinding smoothness of the shoulder, which is indicative of the whole blank before toothing.
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Needleshoulder_zps5773f0b1.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Needleshoulder_zps5773f0b1.jpg.html)

That nice smooth grinding of the blank leads to nice clean teeth like this:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Needleteethsm_zps42e0ea99.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Needleteethsm_zps42e0ea99.jpg.html)

Even the labelling is done with pride:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/FDickstamped_zps964608eb.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/FDickstamped_zps964608eb.jpg.html)

That's a Needle file that is genuinely made in Swizterland.


By contrast, here is a file from the same brand, that is manufactured "elsewhere":
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/5inchshouldersm_zpsc5f2330d.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/5inchshouldersm_zpsc5f2330d.jpg.html)

That lousy grinding leads to teeth like this (and no, they are not double cut, as the Needle file is):
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/5inchteethsm_zps2befff5f.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/5inchteethsm_zps2befff5f.jpg.html)

and that leads to this:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/File-badcornersm_zps5cb3c7ce.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/File-badcornersm_zps5cb3c7ce.jpg.html)


The pride of workmanship and house branding can be seen in how the logos are placed on the files:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/GrobetUSAandFDICKlogos_zps3efffdf5.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/GrobetUSAandFDICKlogos_zps3efffdf5.jpg.html)

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/FLGrobetlabel_zps37714008.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/FLGrobetlabel_zps37714008.jpg.html)

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Pferd6inchExtra-shouldersm_zps0f945517.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Pferd6inchExtra-shouldersm_zps0f945517.jpg.html)

Are you seeing any similarities between all these files?

The grinding is the same
The tooth forming is the same
The steel colour is the same
They all have printed logos
The logos are all the same smudged black ink, and the same font


Other than that, the differences are.....what, exactly?


That poor standard of gringing leads to what may as well be a double cut tooth pattern - which is eschewed for Saw Files because it doesn't yield a good surface.

I go back to my Plane Blade analogy: you must have polished surfaces to get a proper edge. We do not need (even close) to a polished surface for a file blank. However, I do believe that they should at least not be ground with a rock picked up from the yard (I know that's a cheaper method, but really....)

Regards
Brett

PS - if you can't see the pics then please let me know - I may be the only one able to see them, for technical reasons.

[Brett Gregory]

As far as Quality Control goes, this is a shining example of it just not existing at all. It's a 6" Extra Slim:

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Pferd6inchExtra-midsm_zpsaf4116cf.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Pferd6inchExtra-midsm_zpsaf4116cf.jpg.html)

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Pferd6inchExtra-toesm_zps1754b309.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Pferd6inchExtra-toesm_zps1754b309.jpg.html)

Funnily enough, it didn't come with a warning to wear Safety Spectacles. 9/10 files in this box were like this - straight from the volcano. They were replaced, but that's not the point - just more time and effort required.

[Brett Gregory]

By now, I guess you are aware of my goal - to get proper saw files made once more. This is being done in collaboration with people who really know what they are talking about (I'm a novice). I will post the results of my survey in the next post.

There are two distinct, and fairly evenly split camps on the vitues of a taper amongst these 15 experts from around the globe. Those who want it back (as it used to be) and those who struggle to see the benefit. It comes down to personal preference, as Nicholson reflected in their 1942 Catalogue, and I quote:

"Handsaw Blunt Files are frequently preferred to Handsaw Taper Files by carpenters and other EXPERT saw filers for sharpening handsaws with 60° teeth. They are parallel in width and thickness but their tooth construction is identical with Handsaw Taper Files. Edges set and cut to file the gullets between the saw teeth."

So, there has always been two camps. We should not forget a couple of very important points that are supremely relevant:

1. The were no power saws in those days, so saw filing was critically important, and was done by every professional woodworker on an almost daily basis (particularly here in Oz where they were using ultra hard timbers for housing construction during the MASSIVE housing boom after ww2)
2. The situation is now reversed so that most pros use power saws with TC tipped teeth, and it is primarily amateur woodworkers who are doing the saw filing. Only a few of this group can class themselves as "experts".
What we can glean from that is that a parallel file is ONLY for experts, and so by default, a taper file must make things easier, or more reliable, in some way for the non-expert.

One of the collaborators is Mark Aylward (aka "Claw Hama" over here). He has been classically trained in the art of filing TWICE in two apprenticeships, and these days he is a professional woodworker. Mark is also an excellent lateral thinker (as Tradesmen tend to be). He just wants to get the job done.

His thoughts on the taper are as follows:
The taper serves several purposes as I have been told and taught over the years from my Grandfather, school teachers and reading material etc.

1. By placing the small tapered end in the gullet you can see the teeth, angles etc clearly before starting your stroke.

2. A constant even taper allows you to push through the full length of the stroke and keep even cutting pressure on the file and consequently the teeth. You don't want a shoulder at some point along the way to change or alter your nice steady flow of your cut.

3. Even if filed badly there is still a good chance you will get a (leading) cutting edge on your tooth with the small built in fleam from the angle on the file. Even a Rip saw can commonly have 4° fleam, so 5° ish with the angle of the file. This small amount of fleam on a Rip saw is to help keep your saw cut clean and not too furry. Also once you have sharpened and set your saw you should do a light run down the edges with an oil or diamond stone to get rid of any little burrs or edges that may catch in your kerf.

All this is still on the side of the tooth on a rip saw when most/all of the cutting is done on the pitch/tip of the tooth with a Rip saw (as you all know) The angle of attack on this is adjusted with your rake angle. The tip of the tooth with a 4° fleam will have a slight angle across it but if you look at a lot of the high tech circular saw blades these days they have exactly that also. Shouldn't make much difference one way or the other to your hand saw. (only my humble opinion).

In other words, as you start from the toe, by keeping constant force in the push, the file gradually begins removing metal on the way through, so the taper compensates for this ever increasing gullet width (microscopically) and so there is always constant contact and the same pressure being applied.

Of course I accept, as does Mark, that different people will have different positions on some of these finer points (e.g. fleam).

So, what is meant by a proper taper?

Here is a picture of three files. The middle one is from Claw Hama (so we don't get our Marks confused). Either side are a Grobet "Swiss" and an F.Dick and they were both delivered to me in the last week or so. What's that? You can't see any difference in them? Neither can I, and I'd be prepared to bet things very precious to me that they both come out of the same factory. :D

The middle file is a Wiltshire Austalia made around 1940-1950, and is Mark's favourite file by far (although he can't use it forever).

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Taper-oldandnewsm_zps310953f5.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Taper-oldandnewsm_zps310953f5.jpg.html)

I'll have a bit more to say about the Grobet & F.Dick, but for the moment let's concentrate on the taper. Ok, ok, they have no taper to concentrate on, so let's move on.

I think we can accept that Claw's 1940 Wiltshire is the benchmark for taper shape. With that in mind I have measured the taper more thoroughly, dividing it into eight 10mm sections down the 80mm toothed area, and this shows that that taper is a very gentle curve, not a straight line. I did separate measurements for all three sides, and will show the averages.

Going from the shoulder down to the toe, the average angle of taper every 10mm is as follows:

0.2°
0.2°
0.3°
0.5°
0.9°
1.2°
1.7°
2.1°
and the average of the whole taper is 0.9°.

This shows that in the first third the taper is almost non-existent, starts to get going a bit in the middle third, building up to the maximum taper in the toe third. So no real surprise there, as it can be seen visually.

IMPORTANT: When I first started on this analytical journey a month ago, I couldn't for the life of me see why the taper was so important to some people. However, when I saw what Claw was on about it came to me all at once: the taper compensates for metal loss as the stroke progresses and keeps everything even and constant throughout the stroke. Damned obvious when you see the real deal eh?

So yes, I am prepared to change my position in the face of supporting evidence and good argument. This is science, not stalwart opinion. I had originally planned to design a range of non-tapered files to present to the manufacturer, and they would have had a longer toothed area for each relative size, so that a good stroke length can be achieved - thus more efiicient. Not having a taper would also hhave meant that the number of different files could be significantly reduced (and that's really complex and long winded to explain)

The situation now is that a proper taper range (with proper corner radii and toothing) will be the first priority, and blunt-end, untapered files will still be on the burner, but at a lower heat. EDIT: the heat may have to be turned up, as some of the former taper lovers begin to change their opinion (some have since been exposed to an excellent parallel file - Japanese made, but available in the USA in one size only, equivalent to a 5" xxSlim).

Regards
Brett

[Brett Gregory]

Some of these opinions may be changing (with reference to the need for a taper).

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Survey17_zpsb9666b09.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Survey17_zpsb9666b09.jpg.html)

[Brett Gregory]

Firstly, I want to make it clear that this is not a commercial venture for me.

I now have 26 files assembled from different brands and sizes. The logos have been ground off, and they are engraved with a unique number. Three very experienced Saw Filers over here will then have one corner each to assess, and they will be using the same piece of saw plate for this, to keep everything equal. It will be a "blind" test.

Within these 26 files are 6 pairs of identical files. One of each pair has been "sharpened" in a hot Citric Acid bath for three hours. The testers will be asked to make a direct comparison between the files in each pair to see if there is a difference in sharpness, and if so does it last. I must say that both to the skin and under a loupe there is a remarkable difference in sharpness. They are far more "grabby" to the skin, and the edges look MUCH cleaner. Whether or not this translates to better performance remains to be seen.

From there, I will be preparing an extensive document for presentation to the manufacturer, along with the petition. It will include survey results from the 15 collaborators on what they would like to see, test results from the three Aussies on all the files available currently, a list of petition signatories & comments, careful documentation of the current problems, and new design specifications in great detail.

I would like to think that I will see a prototype in around 3-4 months. These will be sent to the collaborators (15, maybe more by then) for assessment, followed by a little tweaking, and then production.

These are the "before" shots of the files before being sent to the first tester (last Thursday 4th July 2013).


4" DEST Group:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/DEST4inchbeforesm_zpsf3c191ee.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/DEST4inchbeforesm_zpsf3c191ee.jpg.html)


5" DEST:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/DEST5inchbeforesm_zps7bce6f89.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/DEST5inchbeforesm_zps7bce6f89.jpg.html)


6" DEST:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/DEST6inchbeforesm_zps015215e6.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/DEST6inchbeforesm_zps015215e6.jpg.html)


5" EST:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/EST5inchbeforesm_zps14af5ba5.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/EST5inchbeforesm_zps14af5ba5.jpg.html)


6" EST:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/EST6inchbeforesm_zps5bba5192.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/EST6inchbeforesm_zps5bba5192.jpg.html)


4" ST:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/ST4inchbeforesm_zpsa675e081.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/ST4inchbeforesm_zpsa675e081.jpg.html)


6" ST:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/ST6inchbeforesm_zpsfb8c1139.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/ST6inchbeforesm_zpsfb8c1139.jpg.html)


6" RT:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/RT6inchbeforesm_zpsc836d1f3.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/RT6inchbeforesm_zpsc836d1f3.jpg.html)


Needle Files:
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Needlesbeforesm_zps7a6b4b5f.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Needlesbeforesm_zps7a6b4b5f.jpg.html)


There are actually three other Needle files being included, but they are already with the first tester, so can't be photographed before.

Regards
Brett

[John Bates]

Try Tome files from Portugal, made in Portugal.

[Brett Gregory]

One of the collaborators had this to say:
"Brett,

Allow me to add just a bit of a mixture of information mixed with some opinion...regarding a file with taper versus one that is straight.

When filing straight across when filing a conventional rip tooth, for example, the taper allows the file to first file at a slight angle as if filing a slopped gullet. As the file is pushed forward it is then filing on a level plane. The taper makes it easier to start the forward stroke and it causes the file to be a tad more aggressive as it begins to cut the metal.

In practice, I don't think the taper is needed. It is a matter of downward pressure from the start of the stroke to the end of the stroke. I would find it to be a more consistent stroke when not having to compensate for the taper.

To produce files that are not tapered, the manufacturer might consider forming the triangular shape through a die in long lengths and perhaps even grind them in long lengths. Then cut them to useable lengths and then add the teeth and a tang. Not being tapered would make the file less subject to breaking at the toe end under certain circumstances.

Not all, but many saw filers use a rake angle guide attached to the toe end of the file. Different type of guides are used with different means of attaching them to the end of the file. Without the taper, it would be easier to attach the rake angle guide.

Most files we presently buy have larger teeth on the larger files. I would like to have larger files with finer teeth. Consider the thickness of a typical saw blade. Regardless of how large the teeth, such as say, 5PPI rip tooth or an 8PPI crosscut tooth, the blade thickness is very close to the same. The number of teeth on a large file should be the same as on a smaller file and all should be single cut. When I file a 5PPI rip saw, I actually use a 6" file that has a width that barely covers the filing of the backside of the teeth. The old rule of using a file with a width twice the size of the back of the tooth just doesn't apply here, in my opinion. A file that is twice the size is huge and the teeth are coarse, hence, producing a rough cut and ear splitting screeching and vibration. I no longer have a use for the larger 8" files. However, if they had finer teeth, they would work just fine. After all, we are not filing a block of steel, we are filing a very thin sheet of spring steel on edge. It seems that people who make the files do not use them to file saws."

And my response:
I agree with that entirely, and I have made a number of posts on my home forum about just that. Taking the extreme example of a 2 tpi (3ppi) saw that has plate about 1.5-2mm thick, the recommended file (according to the DIN standard) has teeth that are about 10 teeth per centimetre (tpc) which means they are 1mm per tooth. There is NO WAY that file could be actioned across the saw plate, and certainly not without screeching to rival a Sulphur Crested Cockatoo. The chronic vibration would result in an appalling finish.

The point you raise about the surface area involved is spot on. In that same saw (above) the surface area being filed is 12.7 x 2 x 2 = 51 sq mm or about the same as a 9/32" square. So, as you say, the amount of metal being filed (even on a monster saw) is tiny.

In fact, I am quite seriously considering that the files should be Cut 1 (or Smooth), rather than Cut 2, and with perhaps a second version available as a Bastard for major rehabbing or new tooth forming. It could even be a double cut Bastard - basically for hogging off, followed by the Smooth for finishing.

Furthermore, I contend that the people who are user Needle files are doing so for either or both of the following reasons:
1. a decent 4" DEST hasn't been seen in the wild for quite some time
2. in any case, the teeth were always too coarse for very fine teeth

In fact a Needle isn't really appropriate because it is double cut (coarser finish), but mainly because it is 3 Square, leaving a sharp gullet - granted, it's not such a big deal with fine teeth, but my point is that a Needle is really only a substitute.

Indeed, I see scope for a 3" or 3.5" DEST. It couldn't be longer because as a taper it would be too skinny at the toe and would just snap.

The following chart comes from the Pferd catalogue and shows the DIN standards. Have a look on the right about the justfication for the tpc in different sized files(under "Example"). Who cares whether a 12" file "feels" the same as a 4" file. It's completely irrelevant! Like, I'm filing a 5tpi saw, and then a 15tpi, and I'm soooo glad that the file feels the same to push! :D

I reckon that's just a carry over from normal filing of larger lumps of metal, and someone forgot to think it through with Saw Files.



Now as far as your thoughts on the taper verses parallel files are concerned, I originally was bagging out the tapers (bigtime) because I just couldn't see the point of a miserable little bit of taper, only at the toe. THEN I saw a proper taper and it all became crystal clear to me, after discussion with Mark Aylward (Claw Hama, and one of the three testers). I am now a Believer man!

So, because there are two evenly split camps on the taper, that says to me that the market dictates that both taper and parallel need to exist. The range of parallels can be small because they can be longer without the taper complicating things. Again, this was my first thoughts, and I have specified a range of parallels, and as I recall it reduced the number of files from 12 to 7 (or similar).

In any case, all those specifications will be done in conjunction with the collaborators. I see the first three prototypes as being:

1. a 4" DEST, Smooth, Single cut
2. a 6" parallel with a 4mm face (sorry to keep mixing imperial with metric, but I'm bilingual, and they both have their uses)
3. as above but a double cut Bastard (for hogging out new teeth, or major rehabbing)


http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/PferdGeneralinfo_zpsf3e2df02.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/PferdGeneralinfo_zpsf3e2df02.jpg.html)

[Brett Gregory]

Try Tome files from Portugal, made in Portugal.

Hi John
Tome make the files for Bahco, and whilst they seem to be the pick of the current bunch (opinion of various people) there are still problems with them such as crumbling corners, and almost no taper whatsoever. They are at least made from Swedish Sandvik steel. AFAIK Tome have xxSlim files, but Bahco no longer avail themselves to them (not sure why). The Bahco Needle files are actually labelled "Bahco Oberg Swiss made", and what's more they look Swiss made. Oberg was one of the fine old Swedish File Makers that Bahco purchased. Bahco is owned by SNA Europe, aka Snap On Tools.

There are only three files "mainstream" file factories left in Europe:
UMV/Vallorbe/Glardon (Swiss), who only make Needle Files and Precision Engineer's & Diesinker's files. They produce no Saw Files whatsoever.
Honauer (Swiss), who only make more or less the same as above
Tome Feriera (Portugal), as you have raised.

Stahlwille do actually make their own files in Germany, but the range is so small as to not be worth considering, and with no Saw Files at all.

There is another manufacturer, but as I alluded to before, nobody outside of Europe will be aware of them, except perhaps for one of their other range of tools, which is just gaining recognition in the US.

Regards
Brett

[David Weaver]

Of what I've seen so far, the bahcos are top choice over here because they can be gotten in quantity for about $5 per, and thus far, I haven't seen any issues with them. I can get by without xx slim without issue, though I am filing mostly my saws, so if the gullet is rounded a little bit for a file a size too big, it makes little difference.

The tall order in finding someone to make quality files will be in getting them to do it at a price where the value of the files is actually better than bahcos, india simonds, et. al, where someone filing a saw will get more work done with the same unit of currency spent. I do think that's a fairly tall order. I can be tolerant of a couple of duds if the value overall is good, and duds means a file or two that is slightly crumbly, but not totally unusable right out of the box.

As far as the taper goes, I haven't paid too much attention to it, but is there a definitive description of why it's there? I'd venture to guess it starts the file on a slight uphill track and allows the file to bite easier without skidding.

[Brett Gregory]

As far as the taper goes, I haven't paid too much attention to it, but is there a definitive description of why it's there? I'd venture to guess it starts the file on a slight uphill track and allows the file to bite easier without skidding.

Post #51, blue copy.

[David Weaver]

Ahh, i missed in in the volumes of information. The second file in that picture is fabulous. The top and the bottom ones look like the grobet usa files I purchased, including the broken out teeth and the bizarre hourglass shape (that the top one shows).

[Brett Gregory]

Ahh, i missed in in the volumes of information. Yeah, sorry about that - the distillation of 5 weeks work.:)


The second file in that picture is fabulous. The top and the bottom ones look like the grobet usa files I purchased, including the broken out teeth and the bizarre hourglass shape.That Wiltshire is made the same as the good old Nicholsons were. Of the other two, one is an F.Dick (made in India) and the other is a Grobet USA - it doesn't look any different does it? There's a reason for that.

[Tony Shea]

I have been noticing of late that the smaller Grobret files, even swiss made, have had that weird hourglass shape to them. I absolutely hate this shape and find it makes filing really awkward. I have been very disappointed with the Grobets of late and would rather use the Nicholson if nothing else for their shape. Granted they do not last all that long but for a sharpening teeth that are in already good shape I find I prefer these of late. I am by no means vouching for these files as they are also terrible, just a little less terrible as far as the shape of the file is concerned. I have yet to use Bahco files as they are not that easy to get unless buying a charge of them, which I probably should just do.

I really respect what you are trying to do Brett and will support it whole heartily. I am sick of the file situation being at the point where they are unusable. If I pay $5 to $7 for one file I expect the file to come out of the box and be usable. Especially when you get down in the real small sizes it becomes a complete crap shoot whether or not the file needs to be thrown out or make an attempt to put it to a saw. And these seem to be the priciest files yet in the worst shape. What the hell happened?

[David Weaver]

I burned through a nicholson file this weekend touching up a saw. For no reason than that I already have it. Their blanks aren't quite as good as they used to be but the files are OK as long as the saw isn't too hard. They are a better option than at least half of the grobet USA (india) files that I got last go-around.

I saw Stu mention elsewhere that he has access to really good taper saw files from asia (I don't know if they're japan), but he's never shared any details with me about them. If there was appropriate demand, maybe he could start stocking them.

[Brett Gregory]

I have been noticing of late that the smaller Grobret files, even swiss made, have had that weird hourglass shape to them. I absolutely hate this shape and find it makes filing really awkward. I have been very disappointed with the Grobets of late and would rather use the Nicholson if nothing else for their shape. Granted they do not last all that long but for a sharpening teeth that are in already good shape I find I prefer these of late. I am by no means vouching for these files as they are also terrible, just a little less terrible as far as the shape of the file is concerned. I have yet to use Bahco files as they are not that easy to get unless buying a charge of them, which I probably should just do.

I really respect what you are trying to do Brett and will support it whole heartily. I am sick of the file situation being at the point where they are unusable. If I pay $5 to $7 for one file I expect the file to come out of the box and be usable. Especially when you get down in the real small sizes it becomes a complete crap shoot whether or not the file needs to be thrown out or make an attempt to put it to a saw. And these seem to be the priciest files yet in the worst shape. What the hell happened?Thanks Tony. Just to be clear, there are NO saw files made in Switzerland any more. Note that the Grobets say "Swiss" not "Swiss Made".

Furthermore, even if they did say "Made" there's a loophole that allows that: wherever the biggest value-add in the process is done is where they are allowed to state that they were made. Considering that, just putting them in packaging in Switzerland would cost more than producing the whole thing in India. Pardon my cynicism. but....

Cheers
Brett

[Brett Gregory]

I saw Stu mention elsewhere that he has access to really good taper saw files from asia (I don't know if they're japan), but he's never shared any details with me about them. If there was appropriate demand, maybe he could start stocking them.

In fact have found them on a website in Japan. I emailed them but got no response. Schtoo was going to give them a tickle up for me, but no news there either.

I have no doubt that they would be an excellent file, but I have serious concerns about the taper, and I have to remember that there are many experts who really want a proper taper back. This isn't about satisfying one part of the market, but rather all of the market.

However, even if the files are perfect, they may still be an overwhelming problem in dealing with them, if some of their English translations on their website are anything to go by. Here is how they describe the use of a file:
"Conventionally, as the tip of the blade is processed by electrolytic polishing (PAT) and the sharp blade of the knife-like material is processed in advance, the concave part bosom is deep and suitable for the material that is easy to cause clog like stiffening plastic, bakelite, wood and other light metals."
"It the industry first, we make both ends type file surface, made easy to guarantee the balance of suffering."

Ahhh...say what?

I don't know about you, but I find the idea of a concave bosom hideously unsatisfying. Whole or part. And as for any resultant stiffening - I very much doubt it. Plastic or otherwise.

You begin to understand why I am loathe to approach them if their range of files actually needs to be modified slightly (tapers).

If you have a look at post #52 where the survey results are it will indicate the taper/non-taper camps (which are evenly split), and underneath that is the list of people who completed the survey - all very experienced and respected saw filers (although you won't know some of them).

[David Kuzdrall]

So, for someone wanting to learn sharpening what is a good choice to start with given the quality issues and availability issues with some of these brands?

[Brett Gregory]

So, for someone wanting to learn sharpening what is a good choice to start with given the quality issues and availability issues with some of these brands?
Either Bahco, who have a reasonable range of sizes (but no xxSlims), of the Saw File on the Glen Drake Website, which is not tapered at all (deliberately) but is starting to turn a few heads away from tapers (such as Matt Cianci). Only one size available which is equivalent to a 5" xxSlim. I'll have a lot more feedback on it in a couple of weeks when the exhaustive testing round of 26 different files is finished by the three testers.

[David Kuzdrall]

Either Bahco, who have a reasonable range of sizes (but no xxSlims), of the Saw File on the Glen Drake Website, which is not tapered at all (deliberately) but is starting to turn a few heads away from tapers (such as Matt Cianci). Only one size available which is equivalent to a 5" xxSlim. I'll have a lot more feedback on it in a couple of weeks when the exhaustive testing round of 26 different files is finished by the three testers.

i obviously need to do more reading on the topic but I will be practicing on a 14ppi crosscut backsaw but planning to sharpen a 16ppi dovetail saw and a 14ppi dovetail saw.

thx

[Brett Gregory]

i obviously need to do more reading on the topic but I will be practicing on a 14ppi crosscut backsaw but planning to sharpen a 16ppi dovetail saw and a 14ppi dovetail saw.

thx
In that case I would definitely start with the file from Glen Drake (no confusion on the site - there's only one saw file)

[Brett Gregory]

The testing results of 23 different files by 3 testers of different perspectives are in, and I have collated them.

I have to write some preamble notes, take quite a lot of photos and then they will be ready to publish in a day or two (fair bit of Photoshop work to do as well - combining before/after images, teeth that were cut yadda yadda).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I didn't get one, but I happened to be looking at some Stanley-branded made-in-China triangular and mill files while at the hardware store picking up leaf bags, and the grinding and teeth at least *looked* really good in the package. (Nothing like the rough mess I've seen on some files.) No idea about use, but they looked real good!

Looking forward to seeing your completed information, Brett!

[Kim Malmberg]

Bahco files are decent. I have experience of using American made Nicholson, Heller, Swedish made Öberg and Sandvik as well as Finnish made Viiala files, and out of all of these the Öberg files have proven to be the very best. But those aren't to be found anymore. So if you have a budget to keep and you dislike the Simonds and Nicholson's I'd say, buy the Bahco files. They're made in Portugal nowadays but they are made with the Öberg pattern (as Sandvik bought Öberg and then sold out the tool division to Bahco) and they're better than the modern Nicholsons.

[george wilson]

One of these days I am going to take those miserable Mexico Nicholson that Toolfetch sent me and put them in a sealed container with aquarium charcoal and case harden them in my electric furnace. Then,I can see of the teeth are still o.k., and the hardness has been restored. I'm pretty sure if The teeth are kept from the air,they will be o.k.. Aquarium charcoal is the best. Perhaps because it is activated,and has millions of tiny holes in it to secrete carbon when hot.

[Tony Zaffuto]

One of these days I am going to take those miserable Mexico Nicholson that Toolfetch sent me and put them in a sealed container with aquarium charcoal and case harden them in my electric furnace. Then,I can see of the teeth are still o.k., and the hardness has been restored. I'm pretty sure if The teeth are kept from the air,they will be o.k.. Aquarium charcoal is the best. Perhaps because it is activated,and has millions of tiny holes in it to secrete carbon when hot.

More details as to how you would do this! Tool wrap around the files & charcoal? Temperatures? Any draw?

[David Weaver]

I'm curious, too, Tony. I figure if george tells the story, there are going to be people doing it if it works. I won't be one of them, but we are like trained monkeys more or less and I can imagine some folks won't be able to resist, and will be on the way to the pet store to get supplies.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I'm curious, too, Tony. I figure if george tells the story, there are going to be people doing it if it works. I won't be one of them, but we are like trained monkeys more or less and I can imagine some folks won't be able to resist, and will be on the way to the pet store to get supplies.

If I can get the details, I can do a batch in the heat treat furnace in my machine shop. I'll need guinea pigs to try them, though, as my saw sharpening skills are not sharp enough. I also have access to a production heat treat source.

[David Weaver]

Jeez, if you're asking if someone would like to try a tricked out saw file, count me in. I have a couple of saws set aside that need enough work that they'll separate the men from the boys when it comes to durability.

Separate and aside, I'm somewhat curious about the conclusion regarding this whole saw file issue, but there really isn't any need for me personally to have anything that isn't already marketed. If the conclusion is that someone starts manufacturing the V11 of files, but wants twice as much for them as what I can get bahcos directly from williams, i'll go over my head given how fast files get used up. But if something like george suggests can be done and it can take a cheap file and make it twice as good for little added cost and not affect the shape of the file, etc, that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

I ran through a mexico nicholson last weekend, and it may be the saw that I had was somewhat soft, but it performed OK, as compared to some of the early ones that I got that had teeth that broke off almost right away and made for a rocky ride and short file life.

[Tony Zaffuto]

For someone who truly knows what they are doing (such as George), they could discern the differences. However, for "ham and eggers" (such as I), our opinions are too many time skewed by what we read/see on forums. We can go through life perfectly happy using the files from the local borg, with the saws acting like we want them to act. But chance upon a web expert telling us otherwise, then we're "ruint".

If George gets me the parameters and we figure out what we want for a batch of files, I'll heat-treat some & keep some for a control group. All we'll need is someone sharp enough to objectively assess the results.

[David Weaver]

I can certainly tell the difference between the quality files and the less than quality files, it gets greater the harder the saw is.

My comment about not needing a super file has more to do with dollars, though. I buy files on value. The nichosons don't last as long as the bahcos or the older simonds files that i have, but they are inexpensive enough that I can use them unless i"m buying a lot of bahcos.

The grobet swiss also separate themselves from the mexico nicholsons in terms of how long they last. For a while I was getting my small files from McMaster car because they were grobet swiss.

There are two ways to tell pretty quickly what's good and what's not, and even if you fancy yourself a "ham and egger" you'll be able to tell:
1) get a couple of known saws that need significant rework on the teeth (disston d8s of the same era would be a good example, there are probably gobs of 8 tooth d8s that need tooth reshaping). That's a quick way to tell. If a saw needs enough removal, it will go through several files before finishing it. Separates the mediocre from the great pretty fast, but in a lot of cases, good and great don't make money sense.
2) maintenance sharpening a saw - see how many saws you can touch up before a file has to be thrown out. With a good file, this might be a dozen (vs the much more liberal walleted adage of using an edge only once), so it's not necessarily a good way for us "ham and eggers". This probably does a better job of showing quality, though, because heavy tooth adjustment work can narrow the difference between files of differing qualities unless you have the discipline to do all of it with a light touch (I don't, it takes long enough already).

As far as what's out there now and what we can use, it's probably never been better, even though we have to mail order now. When you compare vintage file costs to vintage wages, it's easy to see why the files got used so hard before they were cast aside.

[Tony Zaffuto]

As I said David, I'm admittedly a ham-fisted, ham & egger sharpener! I'll touch up my hand/panel saws, but will send out back saws or any saw needing serious work, such as severe jointing or re-toothing. My opinion does not mean much (at this time), though as months pass by and more saws are touched up, skills build. That is a realistic appraisal of my saw sharpening skill and basically is one that warrants others to be wary of any saw sharpening opinion I put forth! However, I do employ people that know how to heat treat!

With that said, files I have & used are NOS Nicholson's I picked up at Lowes a few years back on "closeout". I also have a number of Grobet files, purchased from MSC, also a few years back. I have not purchased any new files in the past few years and do not have any experience with new Nicholson's or other imported files. "Tricking out" files sounds like some fun.

[george wilson]

David,are you saying that the Mexican Nicholsons are getting better? If so,it is great.Please elaborate. The trouble is,if I went and bought a new Nicholson,I wouldn't know how long it had been hanging in the store. It could be an early Mexican one for all I'd know. Therefore,I'd wait some time before trying a new one. Their teeth are very nicely cut. It's just the softness problem. I could buy one at Lowes and return it if it proves soft.

Tony,if you try to heat treat a Mex. file,I would certainly pack it in charcoal. I suspect the teeth of the files in question lost most of their carbon from not being protected from oxygen during heating them up for hardening. After heating them up in a container of carbon,I'd let them cool off to room temp. Then,I'd re heat them wrapped in stainless steel wrap to about 1400º,with a small piece of paper inside the wrap.Too large a piece will burst the envelope and ruin your job. If you get a pretty snug wrapping,perhaps a piece of brown paper 3/8" square would be enough to burn off any air in the envelope . Then ,hold the envelope over a water quench and cut the bottom open,letting the file drop right into the quench.

I was thinking of using an iron pipe with a pipe cap at each end.But when red hot,it might be impossible to quickly unscrew a cap quickly so the whole contents could be dumped. Hence the transfer to the stainless wrap. Even then,getting the wrap to let go of its contents before the part cools too much can be problematic. Had that happen with knife blades before.

I HAVE heated D2 knife blades in a pipe with 1 cap only. The knife was packed in the open end pipe stuffed full of cast iron welding rods. That could work. I can't guarantee it. You could practice with worn out files just to see if you can do the process and have them come out still fully hardened.

Maybe I could run my electric bill up more than the experiment is worth.

The files would need to be drawn. I have made many very small ended rifflers by putting water on the end,heating till the water sizzled,waiting a second and quenching. Therefore I'm going to suggest heating to 250º and quenching. I hope this would be enough to keep the teeth from being too brittle and breaking off. If they did break off,I'd suggest 300º temper,but no more. It would have to be experimented with since I am not a maker of larger size files. Use your OLD files to experiment on.

[David Weaver]

You never know if they're getting better by method (since they've been making them there for a few years now) or if the ones from the last batch that came to my borg are better just by chance, only time will tell. Some of the early ones I had crumbled at the edges fast and the results were predictable.

The last one I just spent on a saw behaved predictably and had decent durability. No failure of teeth unexpectedly, they just wore out instead. I double checked just to make sure it was mexican and not an old stock US file that was tricking around in my file cabinet.

[Tony Zaffuto]

George,

What modern files would be best to experiment with? Should I draw them before re-heat-treating?

You and David (as well as anyone else) may want to travel to DuBois sometime and you'll learn more than you ever need to know about conventional powder metallurgy. Then I'll turn you loose in the tool maintenance/machine shop area.

[Tony Shea]

I like the idea of re-hardening the nicholson files but am not so sure it would help too much. I have no doubt that they suffer from being too soft but they also seem to suffer from horrible grinding marks left behind before cutting in the teeth. I never really picked up on this until this issue was pointed out on here a little while back, then started checking over my files. All of my new files had nasty deep grinding marks left on the uncut part of the file and all my prized old files were extremely smooth. So I could see if the new files where made even harder they would have a potential to still crumble due to the condition of the teeth (rough grind marks passing through).

I've recently come across a box of old Simonds 6" XXslim that should last me a long time. I am struggling to wear the first file out, probably the best file I have used since I started sharpening my own saws. It has done a full size saw rehab, which needed a pile of file work, and still has touched up my other saws over ten times. I have never gotten a file to complete a saw rehab without having to scrap it when I was done or half way through.

[george wilson]

If you push the file a little sideways while filing,the rough grinding marks will disappear,I imagine. I'm well stocked with NOS files,so haven't had to deal with roughly ground files yet. Give it a try,though,and see if the rough grinding marks cancel each other out.

Tony,that sounds like an interesting idea. What kind of operation do you have going on there? I have never tried hardening and tempering powdered metal. MSC carried PM billets 1 year,but they don't now. The metal was very expensive. I guess it didn't sell. I meant to buy a bar,but didn't get around to it. IIRC,they didn't offer it in thicknesses suitable for making knife or plane blades.

[Brett Gregory]

Rather than clog up this thread with some extensive posts, I have started a new thread here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206445-SAW-FILES-TEST-REPORT-extensive-testing-of-23-saw-files-by-3-experienced-filers) which is a comprehensive test report on 23 saw files by 3 experienced filers.

[Brett Gregory]

George, Tony and David

I don't want to pour cold water on your hot files, and if it works, then more power to you.

The problems with your proposition, as I see it, are these:


The file teeth have already been formed over lousy grinding, and that results in a virtual Double Cut file (and they are single cut to get a better surface finish, so this lousy grinding is self-defeating)
Ain't nothing you can do to bring back a decent taper
The tang may well achieve the same hardness as the file after you trick it up, and this will make it more brittle than it was - may snap off, but maybe not (the tangs are tempered back much further than the files bodies, hence the blueing that can often be seen on the tangs)


However, as I say, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Wouldn't it be nice though, to be actually able to buy a really good quality file, and just use it, so you can get back to the job at hand - CUTTING WOOD!

[george wilson]

Of course I would soften the tangs. They are always soft for obvious reasons. Not much can be done about rough grinding for a file to use on saw teeth. I think sliding the file sideways as it is being used for normal types of filing might cancel out the tracks caused by rough grinding.

Not sure what you mean by not having a decent taper. The Mexican files LOOK fine. They are just way too soft (and ground roughly).
'
I don't need to really get into hardening files. I have a huge number on hand,so it's theory mostly. I hope the Mexican files are getting better re David's report. That said,I'd wait a long time before buying a new one,so the bad old ones would haves sold off first.

I read your report,but I must say,it is a bit confusing as there are so many charts. Of course,I am tired right now. Will look again tomorrow.

[Brett Gregory]

Re the taper - this is what what they used to look like (middle file), and for very good reason, as I outlined in a previous post.


http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w443/FenceFurniture/Saw%20File%20Research/Taper-oldandnewsm_zps310953f5.jpg (http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/FenceFurniture/media/Saw%20File%20Research/Taper-oldandnewsm_zps310953f5.jpg.html)


There is another factor in current file production that may well be relevant, and that is the type of steel used. Because ALL the stress is concentrated on the corners of saw files, and is only applied to a tiny piece of steel (sometimes barely a few square millimetres) they need a different steel to nornal Engineers Files, with a higher Chromium and/or Vanadium content. Perhaps this has carried over into modern file production, but it would be more likely that it is just one more cost saving to be had.

The quality of the product doesn't matter, right? Just as long as we get files on store shelves, causing the cash registers to ching-ching.

[David Weaver]

George,

What modern files would be best to experiment with? Should I draw them before re-heat-treating?

You and David (as well as anyone else) may want to travel to DuBois sometime and you'll learn more than you ever need to know about conventional powder metallurgy. Then I'll turn you loose in the tool maintenance/machine shop area.

Might take you up on that, Tony!

[george wilson]

I don't need luck,Brett: I know how to harden steel!:) Been doing it for many years. Rough grind-a different problem. Taper- maybe not an important issue if you know how to file saws.

[David Weaver]

Still waiting for the punchline with all of this, what's the conclusion going to be?

Rather than spending all of this time on files, though, I sure would love to have less expensive more common batches of through and through sawn lumber (instead of $12 a bd foot cherry sawn as such). That is a much bigger problem for hand tool woodworkers.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Even if the Nicholsons were getting better, the problem (for me) at least, would be how long that takes to make it through the supply chain, at least for taper files. I can still find US made taper files at Lowes, Ace and Home Depot on occasion, as well as the US Made flat files. (Not so much for the half rounds) I also find the newer made foreign ones next to them. They stopped US production at a while ago, didn't they? Either these stores are sitting on back stock, or Nicholson is sitting on back stock , and it's all getting mixed together. At least if you take the older US made files as being better than the Mexican ones, there's a label right on them - no such luck with different runs of Mexican files.

[David Weaver]

I haven't seen any US files locally (I'm close to high volume stores in pittsburgh) for probably two years or more. If that's the case, you could be right. I can find a little favor with the more recent mexican nicholson files that I've gotten because they're locally available. They aren't, however, even in the equation if I have to mail order something now that I know where to get bahcos. The only catch with the drop shipped bahcos that I forgot to mention is that they need to be purchased in boxes of 10 as individual files are not drop shipped.

[Carroll Courtney]

Good subject

[lowell holmes]

This thread is 3 years old. ?

[Carroll Courtney]

Like my old father inlaw use to say about newspaper,"Its still new till you readed it"

[Mike Brady]

This 3-year old thread is still timely....the Grobet files have not improved during that time. Lie-Nielsen has quit offering saw files of any kind, which indicates the state of the triangular file supply is a continuing worry for those of us who have a collection of saws that need maintenance. Has anyone found a reliable source for x-slim and xx-slim files?

[lowell holmes]

I use these.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854

I have the file roll. It will last a long time. I don't do a lot of heavy sharpening, but I haven't experienced file failure.
Of course,I have had them a long time.

[lowell holmes]

I bet a dab of epoxy would seat them in the plastics handles. I make my saw file handles out of a piece of wood. It takes about five minutes.

[steven c newman]

Been just walking into Menards, and picking up a Stanley X-slim 6" file.....YMMV.


At around $5-$6 a file.....and I get 2 -4 saws with each.

[lowell holmes]

If I needed a saw file, I probably would try one from Lowe's or Home Depot. Maybe one from each to compare.

Amazon has saw files from five different makers.

[steven c newman]

Do NOT try their "Kobalt" files...junk.

Not sure about HD files.....Menards is closer to where I live.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I vaguely remember that Mr. George Wilson had found some of the newer files they make to be decent, but I don't think they were triangular, and now that I think about it, he might have been referring to the ones from Mexico...

Yeah, oops, it was Mexico

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236145-Good-news-about-a-Mexican-Nicholson-file

This might also be of interest

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?237117-Simmons-files-received

[Stewie Simpson]

Full boxes of Nos Taper Files. :D

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/DSC_0017_zps4b03c297.jpg.html)

[Stewie Simpson]

The earlier made taper files has worked out to be a wise investment. The lapse in quality control of saw sharpening files now being offered on the market has been a major disappointment to most hand saw sharpeners.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

I'll say it again, while not perfect, the Mexican made Nicholsons are as good as it gets in my view. No one uses files harder or expect more from them than me. The files I sell on the VintageSaws.com website are first inspected by me before they are sold. I don't see many problems with the edges these days. Main problems are some of the 6" XS and 6" 2X Slim can be bowed (as in not straight). I'm seeing about a 5% defect rate. Those go in the crunk box to get sent back to APEX. They never question my returns. I had to do the same thing for the Swiss made files when Grobet still carried them. Getting the fine cross sections to stay straight when quenched is a challenge for any maker.

I just filed a Disston #12 late last week, a 10 point, and the edge held up just fine and the saw is razor sharp. I did like the US made Nicholson's better, but the Mexican made alternatives are a good substitute. If anyone needs any Nicholsons, stop by the site. Hope this adds to the discussion.

[Stewie Simpson]

Pete; as someone who doesn't use a toothing machine to form and shape new saw teeth, edge retention on the file is of high importance. 3 years ago I purchased 3 boxes of Mexican Nicholson Taper Files based on the recommendations of others. The edge retention was pitiful. 3 edges of the file were required to form new teeth a 10 point Panel Saw. I had to a switch to a new file to complete the final sharpening phase. I have not used the remaining files since that experience and would not consider forwarding them on to any other unsuspecting buyer. Every one will have their own story to tell on the quality of saw sharpening files now being offered on todays market. The OPs experience with Grobet USA is just one of them.

regards Stewie;

The 3 boxes of Mexican Nicholson Taper Files I purchased 3yrs ago. The opened box still contains 10 new files.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/_DSC0085_zpsa96vtezf.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/old%20stock%20saw%20taper%20files/_DSC0085_zpsa96vtezf.jpg.html)

[Pete Taran]

Stewart,

The reality is that I retooth very few saws, it's just too much work. Back in the old days I bought any saw that would be serviceable. Lately, I've been much more selective and only buy saws that are in mostly file ready shape. It's just not an effective use of time to cut new teeth, file in rake angle, set and then file in the fleam angle. Most are filed from existing teeth that are somewhat regular. All have messed up rake angles and the automatic filer I use cleans them up with a single, deliberate, heavy pass. This is 10 times more wear than a person can exert with their hands. With current Nicholson production, I have no problems at all completely filing a saw to perfect sharpness with a single edge.

Is the edge of the file trashed when I am done? Yes. Has it done it's job? Yes. Did I get more passes out of other brands using this same approach? No.

I think the folly of all this file talk business is that people think that files are meant to last forever. That is just not the case. They are hard pieces of metal that cut slightly softer plates of hard metal. They wear out quickly. They should not be expected to last forever, or even more than one saw per edge when used hard. Think of them like chewing gum, after they stop working, rotate to a new edge and keep going. When all three edges are shot, throw them out and use a new one.

If you are using a file to completely cut in new teeth from scratch, I think you are getting the kind of life I would expect. I've been filing saws since 1991. I've used Simonds, Bacho, Nicholson (old and new) Grobet and some brands I can no longer remember. They all had similar edge lasting properties. My complaint is that over the past 5 years, the files are not as straight as they should be. I have no complaints about their hardness or edge retention.

Finally, my customers seem to agree as they keep coming back for more. You can adopt the hoard the old stock approach, and use them like they are bars of gold, or you can realize it for what it is, something that is meant to wear and get thrown out and just get on with it.

As a side note, perhaps now that our new President has an America first philosophy, Apex may bring file production back to the US as opposed to pay the tariffs they are talking about. That would be great if it happened!

Happy Filing,

Pete

[michael langman]

I cut new teeth on a disston tenon saw I purchased. It was not too bad once set up with the jigs to get the spacing right for number of teeth I wanted. 12 per inch I think.
I used a 3 sided diamond file to start the gullets in the beginning of cut. The file didn't jump around as much as a regular file does in the beginning.
I got my files from Tools for working Wood, and Highland. Mexican Nicholson that held up well for my purposes.

[lowell holmes]

I've never got anything from Tools for Working Wood that was bad. I't's all been quality.