Now questions about building interior doors

[mreza Salav]

Ok, I've asked a bunch of questions about building an exterior door (for our to be built new house). Based on the collective wisdom of people on this board I am not sure yet I would want to have a wooden exterior door (vs say fiberglass). While debating that I am posing questions about building interior doors for a house.
There are going to be about 25-30 doors in the house (including the closets). Since closets are almost all walk-in, I am leaning toward using doors instead of bi-folds.
Have checked a few door suppliers for "wood" doors (well these are veneered with MDF core or plywood at best). They run at about $300-$400 a door (pre-hung) and they are not "good" doors (they want $200-$250 for a slab). Hence, I'm considering the option of building them myself again.

Wood: most likely maple (as it would be easier to find trim/casing/baseboard/etc to go along with).

I am thinking about something that is not too complicated to build in that quantity and keep the cost a bit down. So I am thinking of using plywood (flat) panel
instead of raised panel, with solid wood rail/stile and perhaps applied mouldings, maybe something like the following (except the raised panel):
http://www.doors4home.com/images/Product/large/675.jpg


My thinking is to make the rails/stiles by laminating two layers and use plywood for the panels, with floating tenon joinery and apply the mouldings at the end.
Is this reasonable (both sound and easy) way of making it? what thickness of panel should I use? I was thinking 3/4" but that might be too thick for a 1 3/8" thick
door (the groove would be too wide in the rails/stiles). Should I use a thinner panel or should I make the door thicker (1 3/4"?)
Is it better to glue the plywood panel to get a more rigid structure?

The next question would be if I will be able to find moulding with the proper "inset" to apply around the panels. I see mouldings for this purpose with a 1/2" inset (i.e. the step from rail/stile to panel should be 1/2"). That would mean building a 1 3/4" door with 3/4" panel.
I could use a rails/stile router bit to get a profile but I'd like to keep making them simple/fast.


Again, advice/comments would be appreciated.

[David Kumm]

By the time you purchase and apply the molding, it will be more costt effective to get a rail and stile shaper combination with a profile. Good straight 8/4 will make a 1.75" door that is straight and a lot less work than gluing two pieces together. If you go the two piece route you want to avoid Tantung cutters as they dull with a glue line. I would make 1 .75" doors for the main visual ones and the ones used most and cut corners on the closet dorrs hidden from main view. 20-25 doors takes a fair amount of time no matter the type so do the ones will see the most first. I'm not a fan of ply panels unless they are being painted because they always look different from the solid wood unless you resaw your own veneer and that adds lots of time. You really have to watch the ply for crease lines as they tend to only show up after they are part of the door. I would go 1/2" on 1 3/8 and 3/4 on 1 3/4. Actually I'd go 1 1/2 rather than 1/38 if using 3/4" rial and stile stock laminated. No reason not to if doing your own thing. Emtek makes decent ball bearing hinges for a reasonable price as well as matching hardware. Hinge quality adds a lot to the use of a fine door. Dave

[peter gagliardi]

Don't know what tools are at your disposal ? That will determine the best path for you. However, a simple solid wood true mortise and tenon door is pretty straightforward especially with applied moldings rather than cope and stick style.
If you want 1-3/8" doors, a 7/16" tenon is ideal which would be almost perfect for a 1/2" ply panel, as it is undersized from true 1/2" . I wouldn't bother with a laminated door, or stave core- unless you are limited by stock on hand.Complete waste of time IMO as I have several hundred doors out in the field made the good old fashioned way with zero issues. If you take your time and pick your stock properly it should be easy, though not necessarily quick. You should be able to get 6/4, but would be better with 7/4 stock- some yards have, some don't . You can make your own flat mold on a W&H machine pretty slick for short runs such you have. For a really nice door, thru M&T wedged is very sweet.
Peter

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Dave and Peter. I have a shaper and good router table setup.
My major wood supplier here has maple in 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4. Main reason for thinking to use lamination was to make it less likely to wrap.
The main reason I'm thinking of using plywood panel (vs solid raised panel) is the added time to build them (and make the profiles).

Is a 1.5" thick door standard (e.g. typical hardwares would fit it)?
I don't see a reason why not glue the plywood panels in, or is there one?

[Mark Bolton]

Gosh, I havent installed a bi-fold door in even a high-ish end home in perhaps 15 years.

I know your weighing cost vs. quality and Im sure the reward of making your doors would be very high but I just cant see how you could compete with even a door several grades higher than what your looking at (250+/slab).

One would of course assume your quality will be a good bit higher than a massed produced door (not sure about the door in your image), if you are considering this as a means to save money or even compete with the pricing of nearly any commercially available doors I have a hard time believing you will achieve that goal. Will you come out with a better door? Most likely. Will you have the reward of having made your doors? Yes. Will you save money or even be close? I just cant see it.

The quantities in which you'll be buying material and your time will likely make these doors very very expensive. Very rewarding, but far more expensive than any purchased door...

It may be worth investigating some other door suppliers if cost vs. quality is your motivation. Of course if your just really looking forward to making the doors its all moot.

[Jeff Duncan]

You've gotten some great advice already and I would second a lot of it. 25 - 30 doors is a LOT of doors for someone who hasn't made one yet, and you should plan on spending several months making them. If your gluing up for thickness I've always been told to go in odd numbers....3,5 etc.. However I'd agree that if you go and pick your stock out you can get nice flat doors out of 8/4 stock. You want to stick with normal thicknesses, 1-3/8" is very common though I would never build a custom door that thin. 1-3/4" is my most common size with 2-1/4" popping up now and then. I also agree with Mark, unless your unemployed and have loads of free time on your hands, it's going to be more costly to make your own doors than to buy them. If you can pick up a good quality maple door for $300-$400 that may be your best bet. FWIW there's a reason your average home is filled with cheap hollow core doors these days;) In my shop, which is pretty well equipped, it would take me a solid month to push out that many doors prehung w/ jambs....oh yeah, if your using maple for the doors and trim....you'll be needing to make your jambs too:D

Now I'm going to throw out my opinion as a cautionary step, I would not attempt to make these kind of doors on a router table. A small cabinet shaper can manage them but it's going to get a workout! As far as the panel molding that's pretty simple, buy one that has the correct thickness you need and then rabbet it on your shaper to fit. You'll want a good amount of infeed and outfeed on your jointer as you want your stiles dead straight! Also be ready for a workout as your talking easily several hundred bd. ft. of maple which you have to machine and handle....trust me when I say those doors are going to be heavy!

anyway that's it for now, I'll follow along to see how your doing:)
JeffD

[mreza Salav]

Mark, I appreciate any advice that will help me along the way. I recently built a series of cabinet doors for a small kitchen and two bathrooms (I have done a number of furniture/cabinets but it was my first "kitchen"). The cost of wood was about $160-$180 for 19 doors and 4 drawer fronts, which was lower than my own estimate, although the cost of "finish" was way more than what I thought (photos are with my cell phone):

262422262423262424262425262427262428262429

For the interior doors, I am estimating that I would need about 30bf of solid lumber (assuming 35% waste) plus 1/2 sheet of ply for panels, per door.
I can get Maple for about $2.5/bf and each sheet of ply for about $55. So the cost of material per slab should be about $100, plus my time, tooling, etc.
If I am wrong in my estimates I'd be glad to learn where.

Just to add: i'm a hobbyist and the above cabinets took me about 20 hours to build (from rough lumber to finish ready).

[David Kumm]

Building your own doors is always about matching grain and building something better as it is impossible to match price with a stock dowell construction door. The best bang for the buck is when building odd size custom stuff. I have big jointers, planers and shapers but they still take lots of time. I use a Felder slot mortiser but that still takes at least 30 minutes per door and the bits won't last 25 doors. There is a lot of sanding- as you know - and finishing. Glue up takes 20-30 minutes. Mortising the hinges- on the correct side- and building the jamb take time too. Not discouraging you but I remodeled my 3500 sq ft office years ago including 13 8' Walnut doors and trim and my wife has often told me it was the year from hell as there was no time for anything else with the family. Spend your time on the stuff you will look at and appreciate every day as there is a trade off. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

The door picture you posted is fairly showy and would be a good feature in some places . Forget the recent idea that everything has to match, in the typical asymmetrical room a closet door in a corner should have a plainer look . I would use stain in just a few places or none. Many find stained wood trim all over a house just too dark , even light colored stains.Mortise and tenon will not bring any extra money when you sell the house ,I would not use them on this job. There are many well made features in modern houses that become liabilities because the designs are poorly thought out .

[Andrew Hughes]

Doors take a lot of space to make.The most I can make at one time is two then I lose all my serenity.Most of my doors are outside entry gates I have done a couple front doors.Take a lot of room for all the stages.And a very flat assembly table.Have you seen the thread at lumber jocks on doors? Some neat stuff.
good luck with you build

[mreza Salav]

Dave, good advice as always. My wife will probably not like the idea of me spending a lot of time in the shop after I get home from work! The good thing is we are in the blue print stage of house so I have many months (maybe a year?) to do the things I go at. Might take on the task of building one to see how long it would take, although I'm sure building 30 isn't 30 times one but gives me a sense of how long it actually takes to do it start to ready to finish.

Thanks to all for the comments.

Any advice on the two questions I asked:

Will a 1.5" thick door be fine (e.g. typical hardwares would fit it) or it has to be 1 3/4"?
I don't see a reason why not glue the plywood panels in, or is there a good reason NOT to do it?

[Mel Fulks]

No harm in gluing in the plywood panels .Ive done it and seen posts of others doing that ,too. Sometimes I just glue the bottom one for a little more strength. Personally ,I don't see anything wrong with 1 and 3/8 inch INTERIOR doors. Old doors were often surprisingly thin.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, I appreciate any advice that will help me along the way. I recently built a series of cabinet doors for a small kitchen and two bathrooms

Ive looked at your images in both threads and I am in no way doubting your ability though a router table is going to be little to no use. But the simple fact is it comes down to one thing and one thing only and thats are you romantically attached to building your doors, a door, some doors, or whatever, or not. Because there is no way in the holy hot place that your going to save a dime building your own doors. So once the concept of saving money is out of the question (because you in no way will) then you can make a real decision.

We all know the accounting that goes on, wood, glue, perhaps some tooling (oh... but at least I'll get the tools out of it), some electricity, wear and tear on your equipment... add all that up and your door will be cheaper. Then (this is one of my trademarks) assign $5 an hour to your time. _All_of_it, planning, driving after and sorting wood, packing it to the shop, getting other materials, and so on. $5 an hour to every minute, and you'll be in the hole in a flash. Whats left after that is the romance.

Im not trying to rain on your parade but it just comes down to is this a labor of love, or not. We can all devalue our labor into the negative (provided we have another source of income). But approaching this in any way as a cost savings endeavor is deceiving yourself.

I come from a position that makes me bias out of the gate. I have been a GC for a long time and cant count the times I have had homeowners, friends, and so on, that think they are going to chunk off these massive portions of their home construction. Many of them think they will do it all AND be their own GC AND work a 60 hour a week job. It aint gonna happen. There are so many decisions, distractions, diversions, and so on that just go along with building a home using a GC most individuals would be hard pressed to build a few accent pieces, or trim out a couple rooms, and so on. Of course there are some that have done it but the timeline will be impacted for sure.

Again, my input is if you just really want to build your own doors then have at it. It has nothing to do with cost, you just want to make your doors. Personally I have a pretty well equipped shop, not as well as Jeff, David, etc. but pretty well, doing this full time, and Ive been doing this work for nearly 20 years, but unless I was extremely well positioned financially (in which case why would I be doing this work :p) allowing me massive amounts of free time, if I were building a new house today the last thing I'd be thinking of doing is building my own doors. But thats just me. I'd be focusing on some nice built-in's, maybe vanity cabinetry, or whatever, but to me, doors are too cheap to buy. The other things I can build I most definitely can compete on value AND actual cost (including labor). But again, I look at it from a different perspective where I have no choice but to assign a value (dollar value) to all my time.

[David Kumm]

Most hardware will work with 1 3/8, 1 1/2 or 1 3/4" doors since they work with either common size. My Hickory doors are 1.5 because I can't lift anything thicker. I found it easier to adjust the dimension to the material than vice versa. The hinge depth is adjustable too. I think your plan of building one is good. You learn a lot and a stock 32" will fit wherever you decide to put it- depending on how it turns out. Very easy to get out of square so be particularly careful if doing cope and stick that the cuts are exactly at 90. A little off is a ton over the length of the door. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

First a few numbers. 30BF is a fair estimate per door with flat panels, assuming 6'8" height, average 2'8"-3'0". Also work towards 10-12 man hours per door from rough lumber to finish sanded. Your first door may not go that quickly, but that would be my goal. Yes, 10-12 hour per door, compared to the average kitchen cabinet door 5 piece takes me 1.25-2 hours max on a batch in a small shop, less in a well equipped pro shop. You might get it down to 8 hours, but I'd be surprised. Plywood panels are fine, maple faced MDF is my preference, it stays flatter, the veneers are generally very good if ordered AA, easy to work with for a batch of flat panel doors with panel molding. On the panel molding, you should be able to buy what you need from a decent millwork shop in your area, even a short custom run might be viable on that volume. I don't see a rabbit going over the rails and stiles there, I see a molding whose back is set flush with the panel groove and whose edge butts the rails and stiles. A molding with a rabbit that rides over the face of the door is a bolection, that one is just a wide panel molding, just a bit easier to to do.

You could glue in the panels, or let them float, I've done both with no noticeable difference. If you want to use a raised panel you have to run a spline into the panel groove. Basically you make a square edged frame, glue it up, fit plywood or solid wood splines for each groove, whose projection from the groove edge is roughly 5/8" narrower than the panel molding, glue this in, then make the panel moldings up as picture frames and either glue or nail and glue these to the splines. First one side of the door is done, then you flip the door (after glue is cured) , drop the panels in, they will be supported by first set of panel molding, you glue the second side in....done. Wide fancy molded profile not possible with cope and stick, the panel molding becomes the panel's groove through that spline process. Flat panel is much faster, you just put the flat panels in during assemble and glue the panel molding picture frames to the panels. I've done a few where we used splines with MDF panels, let the panels float, you can sure do that too, seems like overkill to me.

On the laminated thing, I'm on the fence. Maple is not the most stable species I can think of, it moves a lot more than some. Careful laminations, at least for the stiles, would probably help with that, though I too have been taught that the best balance is achieved when even numbers of layers are glue to a single core, like plywood, so always an odd total number of layers. I've heard of two ply laminations for doors, seems to work, I have never done it. I have milled plenty of 8/4 maple stiles, and they stay straight enough if you keep the humidity fairly constant, keep them out of direct forced hot air or such. I'd probably start by making a door or two with solid 8/4 to see how it goes before committing to that much lamination work.

On the door thickness, the custom doors I make at work are all 1 3/4" unless they are made to match older skinnier doors. We have done 1 1/4" and 1 3/8", but for high end new construction, its all 1 3/4" these days. For my own home I make them 1 1/2". I have a metric set that make 40MM doors, sanded they land right around 1 1/2" which works fine with the proper hardware (I can't say all hardware will work but there is plenty that does). I've also installed a 1 5/8" door that I got when somebody screwed up a 1 3/4" door.....I just kept sanding until the problem was solved! Which leads me to the ernest suggestion that you make friends with a shop that has a wide belt sander...you can build 30 doors without one but it will take a lot longer and be a lot less fun.

On the frame I'd use dowels if you are set up for that.....yes I said dowels. 6"X 1/2" maple dowels, 2 to 3 per rail/stile intersection. Are mortises stronger, sure! And for exterior thats highly advisable. A M&T door will also come in handy if a nomadic band of warriors tries to batter down your bathroom door too, but in most cases its over kill, dowels are far more than sufficient as reenforcement with a good cope and stick or tongue and groove stub tenon joint. I've made a bunch with just a hand held self centering jig at home, I use a slot mortiser now. If you are more comfortable with loose tenons or traditional tenons no shame there, but it adds time with little benefit IMO for interior work.

On the question of does this make economic sense? You are a smart guy, there are only so many hours in the day, how you spend them is your choice. I encourage you to make one test door to work out the process, track the hours closely, you will gain some economy of scale as your batch size increases to your shops optimum level, see where it goes. Building a custom home is a big project, you could choose to GC the thing and spend 80 hours per week chasing subs and getting inspections...and reinspections.......you could build the kitchen, the furniture, make the floors (God save you but people do it). There is something very rewarding to a wood worker to live in a home where they can look at part of it and say I made that...its hard to put a value on that sort of thing. But for the doors you can clearly get a price, so I'd also draw them up and shop them around to get a clear understanding of what they would cost you to have made. At least you can then get a clear and educated sense of where the balance lies in the equation.

[mreza Salav]

Mark, you are absolutely right about the time, if that comes into accounting it makes absolutely no sense. However, I am planning to do this on evenings/weekends or other odd times (especially in summer that I have more time); I don't earn more money on those times anyway (I'm not self employed), so there is no $ value on that time I spend building these, of course I'll be less with my family but then this is a house for my family. I might sound crazy but I'm planning to build the kitchen cabinets in the house too. The rough estimate I have for kitchen/bathroom cabinets to the specs I want is in the range of $50-70k. I am figuring I could do it for under $20k myself. Note that I have to earn 35% more to pay these $ after tax, so a saving of $7k on doors and $30k on cabinets (if I do myself) would make a significant difference for me. I have a very close friend who will be the contractor (bringing in the trades, managing the whole process). It is not a small house (about 4300sqf) and I'm trying to stay within a certain range of budget by doing things I think I can do myself.

Peter, I can't thank you enough for all these detailed answer you give to all my questions. I just got some quotes today for applied mouldings and as Dave mentioned the cost of mouldings is going to be 50% of the cost of the whole door I think (plus applying them is rather time consuming). It makes more sense to shape the profiles on the rails/stiles directly and for that I will setup my shaper to do all the cuts and will most likely use loose (floating) tenons for joinery; there is no way I'm going to push all those pieces by hand.

One thing I have to figure out yet is how to manage such large volume of lumber in my shop, especially that I want to dimension them altogether. I have to think through this process also where to store them.

Again, thanks to all for the comments/advice.

[Peter Quinn]

I blew the door up real large, I think I was wrong, the molding is a bolection. I'd guess $2.60/Lf approximately? Depending on your needs for the house at large it might make sense to buy a mini molder like a shop fox to handle molding needs. Or not. Cope and stick is clearly faster and cheaper to produce. Often we are asked to make one or two doors on a whole house that have a serious panel molding, maybe master bedroom, dining room, bathroom, office, some prominent place in the design, and the rest are a simpler style. So if your heart were set on that style a mix of doors can certainly work to set certain rooms apart. Good luck with the project, sounds exciting, I look forward to pictures!

[mreza Salav]

Peter, the mouldings for the door are 1.99/ft which comes to around $45/door (too much).
Since I want to have most of the baseboards/trims/mouldings in the house in wood (stained) and there is a library with some wood work around I thought of building my own trims and buying a moulder (the exact one you suggested, 7" shopfox) but quickly walked away from this thought as I think it's too much of a hassle and I'll be dumping too much on myself. So I am going to stick to interior doors and cabinets for now and buy the trim/mouldings when needed.

[Richard Coers]

One thing to remember about woodworking and time. Flat stock, and even plywood today, left laying around in a shop over time, will not remain flat. Humidity and temperature swings will make the wood move. How it is left sitting around makes a big difference too. The boards on the top of the stack will see a bigger swing on the exposed face compared to the face sitting on another board. So my caution is that if you mill up all the maple to make the doors, but it ends up taking you 3 months to build the doors, you won't be working with flat straight stock at the end of the job. Maybe if you keep the stock supported, and keep it tightly wrapped in plastic, it may be okay. Just another concern for tackling a big part time job.

[Mel Fulks]

If you are not committed to stained doors ,there is another option ....all MDF ...all the time. I know of one 8000 sq. ft. house built by one of the best contractors around here with interior doors of that type made by a company in Texas. Unlike formed plastic materials all the edges are nice and crisp . There are some light weight premium MDFs available thick enough for stiles and rails. Accurately put together with biscuits and then made strong with through dowels there is little sanding to do. Applied wood mouldings. Just one more option...

[Jeff Duncan]

so there is no $ value on that time I spend building these, of course I'll be less with my family but then this is a house for my family.

I don't want to veer too far off topic, but something you may want to consider is are you building the doors for your family....or for yourself? In other words even if you don't value your time with a dollar amount, there's still only so much of it and spending it making doors instead of with your family is something you should consider carefully. Most likely your family is not going to live a better life b/c you built the doors in the house;) Take it from someone who makes a living doing this and has very little time to do any work on my own house:( Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to make your own kitchen cabinets and furniture, but as has been stated over multiple threads, there are some things that may not be worth doing yourself. I'm not saying this is the case for you, but I totally agree with the idea to make one or two as a test run before committing to it. You may decide that just making a few for say the ground floor of the house where everyone can see them is enough?

Last thing I'll mention for now is to take a serious look at your time availability. How long is it going to take you to build all the kitchen cabinets? I know I couldn't build a decent sized kitchens worth of cabinets in a full summers worth of weekends! It takes me 6-8 weeks start to finish for the average kitchen....again in a well equipped shop. Now add in an estimate for the time your going to need to build those 30 or so doors. Are you installing any other trim on the house? My point is that your project may start getting into years vs months. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I'm just advising you to be realistic about what you can do in what kind of time and then make your decision on what to build and what not to.

Anyway I hope you take this advise as a positive as I'm not trying to discourage you. I think you should go forward and build the things you can. It's just some perspective from someone who builds this stuff to think things through thoroughly before going "all-in".

JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

I know I couldn't build a decent sized kitchens worth of cabinets in a full summers worth of weekends! It takes me 6-8 weeks start to finish for the average kitchen....again in a well equipped shop. Now add in an estimate for the time your going to need to build those 30 or so doors. Are you installing any other trim on the house? My point is that your project may start getting into years vs months.

This is always my point exactly though you make it a bit more tactfully. Im in the same boat, 6-8 weeks for a kitchen. Thats no starts/stops, your not re-setting physically or mentally after a few day break, your on track. Doing it part time, 3 hours here, a full day on a weekend there, you add to that schedule immensely. Even if you are working every evening for 3 hours and 6-8 on a saturday you simply dont have the production rate of five or six eight to ten hour days.

So do the math. A kitchen which takes 6-8 weeks at a full time shop is 240-320 man hours. If one worked 3 hours per night and 8 hours saturday and sunday, no days off, no distractions, all material delivered to the shop on vendor trucks or UPS, you'd be looking at 31 available man hours per week, which would at matching production (which wont happen picking-up where you left off) your talking 11 weeks just for the kitchen. Now we are adding 30 interior doors into the mix. A number of 10-12 hours per door is out there, thats another 300 hours and another 11 weeks. This is 22 weeks (5-6 months) at seven days a week, at prime production rates. I didnt look back but if the 10-12 hours doesnt include jambs you have that as well. Then we have vanities, medicine cabinets, if your making those your making doors for linen closets, and the like. Laundry cabinetry?.

In my world, again as Jeff has said "doing this for a living", If I were trying to pencil all this in on top of my day job (even though for me its doing the same thing), I would have to black out a solid year because I know full well there is no possible way I will work five nights a week for 3 hours and I will be guaranteed to miss several weekend days if I want to stay in any form of a relationship.

Now that timeline "could" work as its not uncommon for a well detailed home to take a year or more to build. But now you have to take into account how will your schedule impact the construction of the home. Are you installing the doors? They are ready for doors but you dont have "that door" ready yet. Are you installing the kitchen? How much of your time will be spent tending the finish guy who is installing your cabinets? How much time will you spend installing your cabinets in which case you wont be making anything else? Will the job just stop at drywall awaiting you to be ready? (perfectly reasonable option).

All just thinking out loud and this is probably the last I will mention of it but there seems to be a theme of cost cutting around all of this and of course the fuzzy math does make it less dollars out of the bank but it sure seems like a huge price to pay to save what is a relatively small percentage. Im in no way saying throw caution to the wind and spend with wreckless abandon.

What I often tell my customers when this stuff comes about is perhaps its time to look at chopping a bit of footage in trade for some of the finish details you "really" want. In the 80's and 90's everyone built as much footage as they could with horribly shabby finishes with the plan of coming back over the years and "upgrading". Your clearly not doing this but heck, 300 square feet off the structure would pay for you to really enjoy making some juicy stuff in the house as opposed to trying to crank out the bread and butter that major manufacturers are already handling.

I mean $45/door for molding is too much? Lordy May..

[mreza Salav]

Thanks again for the good and sound advice to all.

Jeff, as I'd like to stay within a budget the question becomes whether I settle for more "standard" features (painted MDF doors, smaller/cheaper cabinets, etc) and pay for them or spend more of my own time to get better features in the house. I know the quality of life won't change by having stained wood vs. painted MDF doors, and that we can easily get by with MDF/Melamine cabinets vs. Cherry/raised panel. And I totally understand your cautionary point regarding time management/estimate (and appreciate this warning). I am not going to rush and buy 1000bf of lumber and start building 30 doors just to realize after two that it will take me the whole year to build the doors with no time left for cabinets. Most likely I'll get enough lumber to build two doors and figure out an estimate of process (and if I can manage those large pieces in my shop by myself). Worst case it becomes a (hard?) lesson to learn about what I can take on and will just buy cheap doors. For cabinets I'm a bit more optimistic as I tried one (very small) one.

It's good to hear from those who do this for a living.

[mreza Salav]

Mark, good advice all around and calculations on time (and I know the numbers are optimistic and it *always* takes more).
I won't be installing the doors. Cabinets? I *might* but will definitely ask for helper. The cabinets are a whole new (and much bigger) project with a lot more involved for the kitchen plus the 5 baths!. I will have to figure out the details of what that entails and once I have that I might (likely) realize that it's insane to try to do that AND the interior doors. Then I might decide to do only one (cabinets) or none! I have no plan to do any other work in the house even though I might be capable (e.g. trims, built-ins) as I simply don't see it time-wise. If I am lucky (wishful thinking!) and by the time drywalls are up I'm finished with the doors and cabinets I might consider doing some of the finish work.

Fortunately, I have the luxury of being able to take time off from work (for a day or a week, or more) as long as I can manage the tasks that are my responsibilities.

[Mark Bolton]

Cabinets? I *might* but will definitely ask for helper. The cabinets are a whole new (and much bigger) project with a lot more involved for the kitchen plus the 5 baths!.

Ok, 30 doors, Kitchen install, and 5 complete baths,.. I amend my prior "black-out" estimate to two years :D If I were working at a company where I had 5 weeks paid vacation and a fairly flexible schedule allowing me to work at home, a year and eight months.. :p

What would likely be wise if you truly want to do all this is to postpone construction of the home for a year. Lock down the prints dead solid, absolutely no changes allowed, and start making as fast as you can. Rent a storage unit (zoikes, more money) and warehouse your production to that location. Break ground on the project 12 months from your start of manufacturing and you'll probably hit the mark because you will have one solid year with no distractions of the construction process taking you away from what you "must be" focusing on.

[Mark Bolton]

P.S. I honestly have to say, in the back of my mind Im really rooting for you. The work you have posted looks very nice and as others have said you seem to really be working this out.

Sure hope you document all of this somewhere...

[Mel Fulks]

Mreza,looking at your last post I must comment .There is no correlation between what you pay for something and how you like it and what will make your house resell quickly for a good price. From the way you put "finish" in quotes earlier I 'm guessing you had it done by someone else. It appears to be heavily toned, so much so that no one would know the difference between the finest wood and masonite .My point is that even if you get stain grade doors you still have the finish to deal with and an end result currently unpopular with buyers. Real estate people ,in this area,seem to regard darkness as an insurmountable liability.

[mreza Salav]

Mel, those doors were finished by myself (and it was my first experience spray finishing). I don't like the tone/color either but I had to "refinish" a set of cabinet doors that were beaten up so badly over a span of 6 years (by my renters) that looked like this:

http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60496&d=1366672917

So I only changed the doors and had to mix my own stain (again first experience) to match the old doors and the side/back panels of an open eating bar (tried two different specialty paint stores and their mix after several tries didn't match I ended up shading my top-coat).
Do I like the tone/color? not really but that's what it was at the beginning and unless I wanted to change the whole cabinets (kitchne/bath) it was the easiest thing for me to do.
Why did I do this instead of having it built/stained? As a small exercise, to see how I can get it done and how close I am to my estimates.

I will surely have to have someone to finish the doors regardless of whether I buy them or build them. Will it look better or have a better resell value if it is painted or stained, that's a whole different issue.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks for reply .I must say the finish you did is as good as most of the ones I see done commercially.Not criticizing , just hoping you get a good job if you go with the stain.For an unusually good finish ,that really does wood justice ,see the pics Julie Moriarty posted.

[Larry Edgerton]

What I often tell my customers when this stuff comes about is perhaps its time to look at chopping a bit of footage in trade for some of the finish details you "really" want. In the 80's and 90's everyone built as much footage as they could with horribly shabby finishes with the plan of coming back over the years and "upgrading". Your clearly not doing this but heck, 300 square feet off the structure would pay for you to really enjoy making some juicy stuff in the house as opposed to trying to crank out the bread and butter that major manufacturers are already handling.

..

Along this line of thinking I often lend customers a copy of Sarah Susanka's "The not so big house". Her philosophy is that it is the details that make a house yours, not the size.

Larry

[Jeff Duncan]

Yeah I do have to say you seem like your thinking this through fully which is good, but on the other hand.....4300 sq. ft with 5 baths and your trying to save money on the doors:eek: Sometimes it pays to take a step back and see the forest through the trees. In my neighborhood 4300 sq. ft. with 5 baths is 4 separate homes:o

Maybe cut out one bath and a couple hundred sq. ft. and you've paid for your doors and then some.....not trying to tell you how to build your house....just saying;)

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I'd build the shell, light and power the new garage first, move a few tools over there, build the doors on site. You are going to have 4300sf of potential shop space during the construction phase, no need to guess where the space to build will be. Start by making material handling carts, ours are triple laminations of 3/4" ply , screws and glue, nothing fancy, carpet tacked to the top, pneumatic wheels, easily holds 30 doors worth of stiles and almost the many doors once they are assembled. Another cart at table,top height form rails, you are mobile.

You might be able to buy the stiles flattened from a top notch lumber dealer, that would whack a huge chunk of work off the job, better if you pick the material though. You can definetly outsource finishing if that's better for your needs. You can easily shell a few of those 5 bathrooms, rough the out and leave it for post move in to do the finishes like cabinetry. It's important to be realistic regarding what you can accomplish and also to have a fall back plan where you can punt should that be neccessary due to time restrictions.

If money is no object then buy more make less, if it is consider just how long the bank will let you keep open a construction mortgage, here in USA there are limits, you had better not holdup a C.O. while you work out the millwork production. You could also buy $5 hollow cores and hang them on maple jambs, make the bulk of the fine doors post move in over the next year,,focus on kitchen and bathrooms first. Open your mind, listen to the nay Sayers but don't become overwhelmed with discouragement. I slammed up an entire garage last fall nearly alone because I had to, and it was a living hell I would not soon wish to recreate, but it's short term pain, I saved $12k in labor, it's built how I like, and I'm proud tomhave done it. ""how are you going to raise a 27' ridge beam alone?" the local nay Sayers asked, I never told them.....I showed them.

[Larry Edgerton]

I'm building my own house while I work on every one else's right now. There are times when I just don't want to work on it but I have to put my head down and forge ahead. It can be done. A house is just a list of 10,000 things that need to be checked off the list.

This weekend its bathroom tile and a water heater install. I have the advantage of paying cash as I go so I don't have a bank on my back, and I can usually find time to install all of the materials I could afford this month.

I am going from a 4700 ft house to a 1300 ft house and look forward to the lower operating/maintenance costs/time.

Larry

[Will Blick]

First, Kudos to all the experienced posters who to suggest such critical thoughts on a such big project for us weekend warriors. I read this thread with great interest, as I too am contemplating a 20+ interior door project in my house, all doors 36 x 96". I wanted a unique design, that matched the wood / moldings / color scheme of the house, and, ... I am sick of seeing raised paneled doors. After reading this thread, I may design the look of the doors, then price them out to a door shop before committing to this project. I too was concerned about space, and planned to build one or two at a time, install and move on. I was also concerned about the weight of these doors as I work alone and my back has been torqued too many times. Lots to think about.... as many have shared, and I can relate too... these projects tend to take on a life of their own, specially when you are not set up for production...

[mreza Salav]

Thanks to all.
We went to another supplier today (with my wife) and looked at different options. Most are just veneered particle core or MDF core. There was only ONE solid rails/stile, which btw had plywood flat panels and raised moulding (exactly the style I'm thinking of building). The cost per slab was $600, maybe a 10% discount for 30+ doors, anther $150 for jamb comes to a minimum of $700 per door. Veneered (all around) doors are at $300+/slab plus jamb (and some of the ones in the show room were already delaminating at some edges.
I am going to try building a few (2 or 4) as a test run and will see how it goes. Will definitely report back this and won't be ashamed to say how wrong I am if my estimates are way off (in terms of cost/time/labour/etc). Worst case my wife and I agreed that we might just put solid/stained doors for the main floor (which has only 7 doors) and all the upper floor doors will be paint grade.

To get this started, I have to first clear my shop of some unfinished projects/clutter and get things ready for this.
Thanks again to all. It will definitely be a challenging ride!

[Mike Delyster]

I look forward to seeing your doors and hearing your thoughts on building them.