Any bow makers?

[Joe Hillmann]

Any bow makers here? Last night I started working on my first "real" bow and ended up breaking it when tillering. I was wondering if anyone here has any experience making board bows and could give me some pointers.

[Dale Coons]

Well, you can't even consider yourself a real bowyer until you break one! So consider yourself having checked that box off!

I'm no expert, I've made probably 20 bows, but I've only broken one (got anxious and put a string that was too short on it). You don't say what kind of bow--laminated or self. I make laminated bows, but I expect a similar process. I first round over the edges up and down both ends of the bow until the limbs have a 'pointed oval' cross section, with the points in the center of the limb thickness. A self bow has a completely different shape (usually a "D" shaped cross section). The thickness should thin considerably as you move toward the nocks, but the last few inches don't really need any work at all except for a little shaping to make them look nice--they don't flex, and you want them strong enough to hold the string.

Once I get there, I start working the limbs by flexing them with a tillering string or heavy bow string--not too much, you just want to get them to start bending. As you work on the limbs, you can flex them more and more--but doing it all at once is a recipie for disaster. You didn't say where it broke, but a common trouoble areas are where there's a 'hinge' and the limb bends (relatively)sharply instead of in a smooth arc. If you've got one of those you need to weaken the wood around it but leave the hinge alone--it's bending there because it's weak. If it's real bad, you'll just have to live with the fact that it's going to be lighter than you may want. Also watch for stiffness close to the handle, a lot of folks don't take enough of there. That's pretty much it--alternate working and flexing, and slowly flex more and more as you approach the target weight.

[Joe Hillmann]

I was following the design that was put up on poorfolksbows dot co, but without the backing, not quite a self bow since it has the handle glued on.

It broke about 6 inches from the end on what I planned to be the top. There were several reasons it broke, I didn't work the limbs enough before trying to go a bit farther, there was an imperfection in the grain near where it broke and it was probably too stiff. If nothing else I learned quite a bit.

On my next one I plan to try making a pyramid bow, I don't like how they look but from what I have read they are easy to to build and much more forgiving when it come to tillering.

I plan to use this bow for bow fishing so I plan to permanently mount a turned wooden reel above the handle. I know that before the end of summer it will end up submerged in water so I need to figure out a waterproof finish for it that can take the bending without cracking. I would also like to make the bow as short as possible but the only plans I can find for a pyramid bow in the power range I want is 72 inches long.

[William Adams]

I've made a couple. It's very challenging and a lot of fun.

My favorite book on it is online, _The Flat Bow_:

http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/

[Dale Coons]

Joel,

I'd stick with the flat bow and give it another go--but use a backing this time! Don't know what you have in the way of tools so you may need to be creative with some of this. Some of the best backing materials are hickory and bamboo. Maple will work ok. The backing should be 1/8 inch or less ('or less' hopefully). I've never tried the drywall tape/glue backing on the website you mentioned, may work fine, but it's butt ugly in my opinion.

Save yourself some work by doing some rough shaping with a band or hand saw and a jointer (or plane). Glue the backing to your bellywood and let it dry thoroughly. Use plenty of glue, squeezout is your friend. You don't want the backing to seperate from the bow. After the blank is dry, layout your bow and cut it out on the bandsaw. I also glue the handle before shaping, but it's easier to cut the blank out with it off. A better shape would be something about 1 1/4 inches in the handle area, and taper from the ends of the handle to about 5/8 or so at the nock ends. That will save you a lot of grunt work. Also, you'll want to taper the belly side of the bow before you start with a rasp. You can do this on a jointer (with out the handle!) by starting the joint close to the end of the handle and going all the way to the end of the limb. Then move about a quarter of the way to the nock, and do it again. Repeat several times. By doing this, the ends will have more passes than the middle of the bow, and be thinner. No jointer? You can do the same with a plane. Don't use a rasp for this kind of work, it's hard on you and the rasp!

The website suggests a cross section like A. B shows the laminated cross section of a red oak stave and a back. I like the shaped cross-section in C better than A--it's easier to tiller and shape, plus it's 'purty'. If you center the 'pointed oval' in the thickness of the wood like in C, you'll see a nice reveal on the edges as you look at the bow head on, sort of like D.

The website's tips for tillering look pretty good--it's a decent list of defects you want to avoid.

Good luck!


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[Dale Coons]

One other quick thing--the handle isn't typically in the center of the bow--the arrow rest is. Your handle should go maybe 1 1/2-2 inches above that, and 4-5 inches below. That means your lower limb is shorter and stiffer than the upper limb. You'll have to take more wood off the bottom when tillering to make it bend evenly. Taper the handle into the limbs.

[russell lusthaus]

Hi Joe

I too am a bowyer. I have been making bows for about 10 years and have about 3-4 bows going at all times, but it has been some time since I did a (not so) simple board bow. I would guess that you broke your bow because the back of it was not a single growth ring. It had been violated in places, probably more than one. It is extremely hard to find a board that has a single growth followed - and this is the main reason why the board bows require a backing. There are many backing materials to choose from - - wood, bamboo, sinew, rawhide, brown paper bag, flax, linen . . . . You also did not mention what kind of wood you were using - as some are better than others.

I enjoy Sam Harpers page too and I still use to this day his BBI form. I hang out at Primitivearcher.com for all my bow building Q&A. There are many buildalongs for you to read and learn from and a guy who goes by bubby recently did a board bow buildalong which I think you will find informative.

I would be happy to help you choose a good pairing of woods for back and belly if you tell me what you have access to.

Lastly, I have to take issue with something Dale said above. In fairness to him, though, there is a debate on this point amongst knowledgeable bowyers, I just happen to disagree with his position. While some bows are built with the top and bottom limbs differing in length, I do not make them that way very often. On (most of) my bows, the top and bottom limb are the same length. This means that the 4 inch handle is in the middle of the bow and the arrow rest is about a inch and a quarter above the center line of the bow. When limb length is not the same, the handle / rest geometry changes (as Dale was describing), but for a first time board bow, I would suggest you center the handle and build the limbs the same length. When you become more experienced, you will decide if you like bows with a longer upper limb. Tillering a bow with a longer upper limb is harder too.

Russ

[Joe Hillmann]

The bow was red oak. I would really like to build a bow out of one piece of wood with no backing, which is why I am now thinking of giving a pyramid bow a try from what I have read the way the load is spread out they don't necessarily require a backing and are an ok shooting bow.

As far as woods I have available, , red oak, white oak, maple, poplar, basswood, willow, ash, birch, elm I am sure there are others but I would prefer to use a wood that I can point to a stump and say this bow came form that tree or at least know which piece of property it came from, which is kind of the reason I want to make an unbacked bow.

[russell lusthaus]

One piece of wood with no backing is called a self bow -- not a board bow. From the list of woods you have available, I would tell you to use elm or white oak, as they are both very good bow woods. Maple and ash are also ok, but not as good as elm or white oak. What kind of elm do you have? Many people use red oak (and birch), but in my opinion they are inferior to the others, and if you are going to put in the effort, and have access to WO or elm, use them. If you have to purchase staves, then maybe RO to learn on since it is cheap.

For all of these woods mentioned, the first sap wood ring under the bark becomes the back of your bow, so you have to be careful removing the bark so as to not damage the back of your bow. That said, your wood must be dried before making a bow - - and some dry their wood with the bark on, and others remove it first. Depends on the species. If you remove it, coat the entire back and ends with shellac to retard the quicker drying of the back and prevent cracks from opening. Different strokes for different folks.

Any style of bow can be made as a self bow - - not just pyramids. However, a pyramid is a good candidate for your first, since the tapering is only in width. Remember - on a pyramid - the width tapers evenly from handle fade to nock, but the thickness remains constant from outside the fade to the end of the limb. Most important is to keep a single growth ring on the back of the bow. I do not mean to belittle pyramids - - as my favorite shooting bow is a hickory pyramid, 50#@28inches.

Do you have dry wood to work with? If not, and you are near me (not sure where you live), I would be happy to give you a dry stave to try your hand on. If not, all I can offer is advise and encouragement. It is an awesome feeling to get a deer (or carp) with your own equipment - and I don't even hunt. BTW - - carp skins, properly dried, make awesome decorative backings for bows.

Russ

Russ

[Joe Hillmann]

Russ,
Thanks for the offer, although I am in Wisconsin.

I ended up turning the bow that broke into a child sized pyramid bow with about a 20# weight. Going with the pyramid style was so easy it nearly tillered itself.

I also cut out a blank for a fishing bow for myself, the body is red oak with a walnut handle (that is what I had on hand) I will start tillering it tomorrow once the glue dries if it is anywhere near as easy as the first one I may have a new hobby.

Edit: I am not sure what type of elm it is.

Second edit: I mostly plan to go after red horse with it. In the past we have gotten some carp up to about fifty lbs, the meat looks wonderful but they taste like eating swamp mud. Red horse is the only local fish I can bow fish for that has a good flavor.

[ray hampton]

I am surprise about you using red oak, maple are use in laminated Fiberglass bows, hickory use to be the main wood for self bows

[Joe Hillmann]

The reason I used red oak is because I had it in the shop. It was left overs from a bunch of toboggans I built for Christmas.

[russell lusthaus]

Try and make sure the back of the bow follows a single growth ring. If it does not, you should back it with something or it will break. Maple makes a good backer for RO. So does brown supermarket bag paper.

The handle that you glued on is of course a place to hold the bow, but it is decorative too in that the bow should not bend thru the handle, so any wood that looks good to you can be used. Just make sure that the bow does not bend thru the handle or the glued on handle will pop off. I think Sam Harper had a good drawing of how to tiller a bow with the glued on handle so it wont pop off.

Ray - Hickory is still one of the main woods used for self bows, along with osage, yew and black locust - but he did not indicate he had access to these other woods.

[Joe Hillmann]

So I got the bow that I broke modified and shooting. It is 20 lbs at 21". But I am now having a hard time finding a bow string. The two archery shops in the area don't have any type of string. Is there anything I can make an improvised string out of that I can use until I can get an actual string? In the past I have used nylon but it has a lot of stretch. Would braided spiderwire work, it is supposed to have very little stretch.

[russell lusthaus]

Not sure what braided spiderwire is. Be careful that the string you use does not cut into the nock and/or back of the bow.

Maybe you could use hemp cord as a temp string. I have used para cord, and artificial sinew, but they stretch too. You will want to pre stretch the string anyway. Put it on the bow, let it sit an hour, then take it off and twist it shorter and continue till it stops stretching.

[Matt Schenk]

Joe, be careful! Making bows can be very addictive, I got 2 friends hooked! First, I'd highly recommend visiting the Paleo Planet and Primitive Archer forums... LOTS of great information.

Here's my advice on the subject, this comes from making numerous bows from many different wood types, including Red Oak boards:
1. The 'grain' of the board is critical. When choosing a board, you want the lines to run the entire length of the board. I little run-out may be acceptable. With a board bow you do not need a single growth ring on the back, you are essentially making a "decrowned" bow. This photo shows the back of a 50# Red Oak self bow. You can see the 'grain' lines running almost the entire length of the limb.
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2. For your first bow I would suggest a simple "D" bow. This is a bow that bends (although very slightly) through the handle. It will be easier to make because you do not need to glue on a handle riser, plus since the handle is taking some of the load, it will be a more durable bow (or you can shorten the length 4"-8" compared to a stiff handled flatbow). A pyramid style flatbow will also be an easy design since most of the tillering is done be altering the width of the limbs and not the thickness.

3. A flat/rectangular limb cross section is the strongest cross section you can have. Round the corners of the back to prevent a splinter from rising. Most woods are stronger in tension than compression which is why crowned backs can survive, but with a board bow the imperfect grain has weakened the back, so you want the back flat. The bellies of my board bows are usually very slightly rounded. This will take a little pressure off the back but may lead to slightly more set (string follow).

4. Do yourself a favor and make a tillering tree if you don't already have one. This is a simple set up that lets you view the tiller and draw weight simultaneously. It consists of a "saddle" to hold the bow, a pulley at or near the floor, and a spring scale and rope. See here:
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5. Buy or check out from the library the "Traditional Bowyer's Bibles" series, volumes 1-4. They are must reads for any bowyer!

6. And finally, MOST woods can make very durable bows... IF you design the bow around the wood. Hickory, White Oak, and Osage Orange are extremely strong in tension, so they're more forgiving of tillering errors. Any oak, hard maple, elm, or most other hardwoods can also make excellent bows. Cherry, walnut, and the soft maples can make good bows, but require a little more knowledge and are not as forgiving of bad tillering or abuse. Avoid willow, basswood, cottonwood, poplar etc... To make good bows from them you would have to make the limbs ridiculously wide or the bow incredibly long to survive the rigors of shooting arrows.

And to take minor issue with some stuff mentioned: a self bow is any bow made from a single piece of wood. It doesn't matter if that wood has been "lumberized" or split from a log. Also, MOST bowyers would still consider a bow with a glue on handle or glued on tip overlays a self bow. A wood-backed, linen-backed, sinew-backed etc... bow is NOT a self bow because the backing is doing part of the work. Also, making self bows from boards without any sort of backing is not only possible but, with a little practice and good board selection, easy!

Here are a few (older) photos of some of my board bows. Most are red oak!
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EdB-H8y3t6w/TX1H42tDOEI/AAAAAAAABD4/uTo5zXtSKtQ/s640/some-bows2.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CZi3YuKnnuw/TXvGDH20BbI/AAAAAAAABCE/1oScEdL1n5M/s640/ro-80wb02.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-I0HlA5GAjZw/Tfqfxong85I/AAAAAAAABK4/b_cYIuBT7JY/s640/tb-nock-01.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5WfBPy9DBT0/TjXJd6QISbI/AAAAAAAABMo/akAcb9Sd98Q/s512/24_fulldraw_3-4.jpg

Hope this helps and good luck on the next one!

[William Adams]

Very, very cool post (and bows)....

Minor nit. Only certain backings will actually ``work'' and contribute to the cast of the bow --- many backings are only to hold the bow together and keep splinters from lifting.

Here's an interesting article on a cloth backing which does ``work'':

http://books.google.com/books?id=oScDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Matt Schenk]

Very, very cool post (and bows)....

Minor nit. Only certain backings will actually ``work'' and contribute to the cast of the bow --- many backings are only to hold the bow together and keep splinters from lifting.

Very true about most backings being "insurance policies" rather than helping the bow's cast.

[Dale Coons]

Joe, for bowstrings, you may want to consider buying a spool or two of B-50 dacron and learn to make your own. It's not hard, there are a lot of 'how-to' instructions for flemish twist or endless loop strings. A google search will turn up quite a few. A spool of B-50 will set you back about 10-12 bucks.Two different colors will help you see what you're doing on a flemish twist string. One color will be fine if you'd rather save a few bucks, or if you'd prefer the endless loop style. You'll also need some serving thread. You'll want some string wax too. I'll bet if you ask on some of the archery forums, you'll find somebody close to you who is willing to give you what you need to try making a string and would help you do it to boot! There are many good archery suppliers on the web that will have any of the stuff mentioned here, books and supplies. threeriversarchery(dot)com is one close to me that is a good traditional supplier lancasterarchery (dot) com is another large supplier, but less for tradional bowyers. There's a lot of smaller companies out there also, most are willing to talk to you and answer your questions.

d

[ray hampton]

Try and make sure the back of the bow follows a single growth ring. If it does not, you should back it with something or it will break. Maple makes a good backer for RO. So does brown supermarket bag paper.

The handle that you glued on is of course a place to hold the bow, but it is decorative too in that the bow should not bend thru the handle, so any wood that looks good to you can be used. Just make sure that the bow does not bend thru the handle or the glued on handle will pop off. I think Sam Harper had a good drawing of how to tiller a bow with the glued on handle so it wont pop off.

Ray - Hickory is still one of the main woods used for self bows, along with osage, yew and black locust - but he did not indicate he had access to these other woods.

thank you russell , you must be an expert at reading between the lines

[ray hampton]

So I got the bow that I broke modified and shooting. It is 20 lbs at 21". But I am now having a hard time finding a bow string. The two archery shops in the area don't have any type of string. Is there anything I can make an improvised string out of that I can use until I can get an actual string? In the past I have used nylon but it has a lot of stretch. Would braided spiderwire work, it is supposed to have very little stretch.

I understand the 20 lbs but not the 21" , is this number [21 " ]the bow length or something else

[Joe Hillmann]

Ray,
The 21 inches is the distance from the outside of the handle on the bow to the farthest you would pull the string back. The bow can be pulled farther than 21 inches and the weight would go up but at some point it would break.

I made a string out of nylon, it had a ton of stretch in it, but I managed to tiller the bow with it. I got a little carried away with the tillering and now the bow is 42 lbs at 28 inches, I was hoping for 45 to 50 lbs. On the bright side they are so easy to make I can have a bow of a different weight for every situation. I was worried I would break the bow stringing it with the nylon string so I ran to the bait shop and picked up a spool of 50# spiderwire and made an endless loop string and when I strung it up there was NO stretch in the string. I don't have any arrows so I haven't been able to shoot it yet.

[ray hampton]

Ray,
The 21 inches is the distance from the outside of the handle on the bow to the farthest you would pull the string back. The bow can be pulled farther than 21 inches and the weight would go up but at some point it would break.

I made a string out of nylon, it had a ton of stretch in it, but I managed to tiller the bow with it. I got a little carried away with the tillering and now the bow is 42 lbs at 28 inches, I was hoping for 45 to 50 lbs. On the bright side they are so easy to make I can have a bow of a different weight for every situation. I was worried I would break the bow stringing it with the nylon string so I ran to the bait shop and picked up a spool of 50# spiderwire and made an endless loop string and when I strung it up there was NO stretch in the string. I don't have any arrows so I haven't been able to shoot it yet.

WHOA , that is a load off of my mind, I could not grasp any one pulling a bow as short as 22" unless the bow was for hunting small game

[Charlie Fox]

very interesting thread - i have a gift coming of 4-5 osage orange trees that are down or headed that way, plan to mill it out into live edge slabs and some 5/4 lumber to make my full bodied rocking horses, and from my initial inspection i think there are a couple of sections straight enough to make bows. considering trading the staves for bow making lessons if anyone in near Houston.... ;-)

[Alan Schwabacher]

"The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" is a very detailed source of info. It's now a set of 4 books that describe every aspect of making many kinds of self and backed bows, arrows, and testing to understand how materials and design affect performance. Each chapter is a separate essay with a different author (though some authors have contributed many chapters to the set) and the books have been written over a number of years. That means there's no overall organization, but there is a phenomenal amount of enthusiasm. If you buy only one, I suppose volume 1 is the one to get, but it will be hard to stop at one. They are all interesting.

[Joe Hillmann]

Here are pictures of the "finished" bow the top is on the lefthand side in each picture. The top is quite a bit weaker than the bottom and the bottom has is stiff in the first and last third of the limb. Since the bow is already down to 42 lbs I am calling it done. Right now it is sanded with 40 grit paper. I plan to hand sand it with 100 grit or so just to take off the worst of the rough spots then finish it with some left over oil based floor sealer I have.

The bow is in no way a show piece but it cost me about $3 and a few hours work and I learned a LOT. I think I will start on a new one this weekend but will start on a much nicer bow.

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[Matt Schenk]

Nice first bow Joe, MUCH nicer than my first! Now make some arrows and enjoy the fruit of your labor! I'm telling ya, there's nothing like the feeling of loosing the first arrow from your first bow....

[Joe Hillmann]

I am not sure what I am going to do for an arrow yet. In the past I have always used heavy fiberglass fishing arrows but I have thought using a much longer arrow would be helpful for smaller fish. I am thinking of an arrow about five feet long that way the tip is already in the water before I shoot.

From what I have read and seen in pictures "native people" tend to use much longer arrows with less powerful bows, since there methods have been developed over thousands of years there must be a reason for it.

[ray hampton]

I am not sure what I am going to do for an arrow yet. In the past I have always used heavy fiberglass fishing arrows but I have thought using a much longer arrow would be helpful for smaller fish. I am thinking of an arrow about five feet long that way the tip is already in the water before I shoot.

From what I have read and seen in pictures "native people" tend to use much longer arrows with less powerful bows, since there methods have been developed over thousands of years there must be a reason for it.


I not so sure about having an arrow so long that the tip will be in the water before it are shot, first the tip will make waves , second the nock may be traveling at a greater speed than the head when the arrow are first shot, IF I AM wrong do not be afraid to tell me

[Joe Hillmann]

I not so sure about having an arrow so long that the tip will be in the water before it are shot, first the tip will make waves , second the nock may be traveling at a greater speed than the head when the arrow are first shot, IF I AM wrong do not be afraid to tell me

Ray, The waves won't be an issue, fish are very tolerant of being poked and prodded by sticks as long as the movements are slow and small. As far as the speed difference between the tip and knock, I have no idea if that will be an issue or not.

[ray hampton]

Ray, The waves won't be an issue, fish are very tolerant of being poked and prodded by sticks as long as the movements are slow and small. As far as the speed difference between the tip and knock, I have no idea if that will be an issue or not.

you will never know for sure unless you try it SO GET busy and try it
the way that the nock and the broadhead or any point on the business end of your arrow move will determine how accurate your arrows will travel, your nock at the moment of release will travel from side to side for a certain distance or up and down [ this action do have a name that I forgot ]

[William Adams]

your nock at the moment of release will travel from side to side for a certain distance

Archer's paradox --- great animation of it in the movie _Brave_.

[John Whitaker2]

Joe, if you go to tradgang dot com and look for the "how to resources" you will find a thread called "so you wanna build a bow?". It will walk you though the process from wood selection to tillering, there are also threads on building your own arrows from dowels. It's a great site with lots of good info.
Good luck and have fun!!
John"So You Wanna Build a Bow?" "So You Wanna Build a Bow?"

[Joe Hillmann]

I have now ended up making three good bows. One for me for hunting and two bows for my kids, one about 20 pounds and one 15 pounds. After playing with it for a day I ended up breaking the 20 pound one by over drawing it. It felt like getting punched in the face. The 15 pound one had a splinter that started to raise when we were tillering it so we stopped and I glued on a piece of walnut veneer on the back to stop it. It should be a pretty handsome bow when we get around to finishing it(my son is sanding it at the moment)

I also made a bunch of arrows from oak and poplar dowels with field points and fish points made out of nails. I am very surprised at how much abuse a simple oak dowel will take before breaking, I am able to do things with them I would never try with even a second hand aluminum arrow that I didn't care about.