LN Improved Workbench

[David Dalzell]

Well I finally broke down and ordered the L-N Improved Workbench. Unfortunately it will be some time before I see it. I was told that with the current backlog that they would not be able to begin building it until sometime in October. Five months! :( Also the shipping costs seem unreasonable to me. About $ 650.:( However, much as I object to the shipping cost, and long lead time, still I need (want) the bench.

[Pat Barry]

Hi David, I would encourage you to consider again the idea of building your own and getting it done the way you need it. You could still use the LN vises and hardware if you so desire but, of course it is a bit of work, although lots of ways to accomplish a finished bench. To me, I'm too cheap to spend $2 grand on something like this.

[Peter Pedisich]

Well I finally broke down and ordered the L-N Improved Workbench. Unfortunately it will be some time before I see it. I was told that with the current backlog that they would not be able to begin building it until sometime in October. Five months! :( Also the shipping costs seem unreasonable to me. About $ 650.:( However, much as I object to the shipping cost, and long lead time, still I need (want) the bench.

David,

Hi, I was going to purchase this bench, but decided to build my own since I decided my skills were not up to the level of warranting the L-N bench.
If the shipping includes assembly and delivery to out west, then it's not unreasonable.

Pete

[David Weaver]

There's not a lot there for $2,650. I'd consider building that yourself I were in your shoes.

If you're of lots of money and no time, then you might consider that a good option, otherwise, most of LN's shop stuff (the benches, the sharpening bench, hammers, etc) are very high priced for what they are.

[Jim Barrett]

David,

Hi, I was going to purchase this bench, but decided to build my own since I decided my skills were not up to the level of warranting the L-N bench.
If the shipping includes assembly and delivery to out west, then it's not unreasonable.

Pete

I purchased the same bench in August 2011 and received it in December 4 months later. It does include assembly, it is only the top and the legs but the guys hauled it into my shop and set it up. It is a very nice bench and worth the money IMO...the toughest cost to swallow is the delivery charge...

Jim

[gary Zimmel]

I got a custom bench built by LN in 2008.
It was pricey but well worth it.

[george wilson]

I should build benches instead of guitars!!!

[David Dalzell]

I had considered building a full woodworking bench, but I would rather spend that time building furniture. I have a small home made bench. Very heavy (good), but very short (bad), and with only one vise ((bad).

[Jeff Heath]

Well, I gotta tell you that I disagree with everybody here if they think $2650 for a rock solid work bench is too much money. I have built several benches, and the last is a 8' Roubo style with Benchcrafted hardware that is 5" thick maple. I did not count the hours, but I spent a lot more than two weeks working on it, from milling the stock, to all the joinery, and installing the leg and wagon vise. I wouldn't sell my bench for less than $3500, and at that, I'm probably making about $25 an hour, including shop expenses......you know....electric, gas, etc....

I think it's a great experience to build one's own workbench, but if you don't have the time, then you should expect to purchase one from a craftsman who is going to build something for you that you will like working on for a very, very long time.

How many professional woodworkers here can keep going at $1000 a week, including all shop expenses, hardware, and material. I sure as hell can't. I can make that playing poker part time.

[bob blakeborough]

Do you have the option of organizing your own shipping? You might be surprised. I have to ship and get shipped oversized and heavy stuff on a pretty regular basis and I almost always find I can get a substantially better deal on my own on the rates compared to what the manufacturer wants. It might be worth a shot to ask...

[Jim Koepke]

I have to ship and get shipped oversized and heavy stuff on a pretty regular basis and I almost always find I can get a substantially better deal on my own on the rates compared to what the manufacturer wants.

For many things this is the best way to have it done.

From reading the thread, it sounds like the shipping costs include set up at the delivery site. Most freight companies are not set up for this.


It does include assembly, it is only the top and the legs but the guys hauled it into my shop and set it up.

Most freight companies will deliver to a door or dock. Often they do not have the ability to move something much beyond the back of the truck, let alone helping the receiver in setting up a work bench.

Does LN ship the bench boxed? There is also a problem for a lot of shipping companies if the product isn't boxed.

The shipping cost may be part of how this is done by LN. Do they send out a truck with a few weeks of production in benches and other items to be shipped across the land?

Do they ship to local crews who then do the delivery and set up?

Fuel, labor and many other things come into the consideration of how much it costs to succeed at getting a bench from Maine into an unknown shop somewhere in North America. Yes, $650 seems like a lot for this until one considers what they get for the money compared to what they might get by hiring someone with a pickup truck to do the job.

jtk

[David Dalzell]

I would not feel good about organizing my own shipping. If L-N handles the shipping then I feel assured that if any shipping damage occurs they will be good for it. If I do it then I am not sure who would take responsibility.

[Winton Applegate]

I got nothing to add but will echo what others have said.
mostly two words :
Klausz bench
Make one for your self
Look at this as a right of passage. Forget about thinking how long it will take because it will be four times as long as you hope.
YOU WILL BE A MUCH BETTER WOODWORKER if and when you survive the ordeal.
We are talking a bench used mostly for the hand tool cabinet making type of woodworking here. For the easy, noisy, machine tool operator way nah
but if you want to LEARN to do it "The Cowboy Way" make and use a Klausz.
This doesn't mean I don't use power tools but this style of bench is best for hand tool woodworking and doing most all the work by hand will not only be a pleasure but make you appreciate the functionality of this bench.

[David Dalzell]

Well I am pretty much a hand tool worker. I do use machines for initial cutting and sizing, but after that is is all by hand. I went to the College of the Redwood Fine Woodworking School and they are very hand tool oriented. In fact we made many of our own tools while there.

[Winton Applegate]

OK . . .
so you are saying you don't have time to build a bench sounds like to me.
I have more free time than many.
I have used other vises and benches and I find them convenient only for the makers of the products and clumsy when actually doing the woodworking.
A built in shoulder vise and tail vise like on the Klausz are super useful and versatile and I can not , now, imagine using anything else.

[Erik Manchester]

David,

I am with Jeff, the LN bench is good value for the money when you consider the time involved in sourcing the hard maple, prepping the stock, glue up, cutting of the joints, and mounting of the vises. I chose to buy one after trying it out at the LN handtool event in Ottawa but I drove down to Warren right after Christmas in the last week of Dec and combined it with a visit to family in Portland. It was very quiet as they had just had a 12" snowfall, and I had a cup of coffee with Thomas himself which was a real treat.

In my case, I don't have the large power tools to prepare the maple for a bench and while I could do it all by hand on saw benches, I chose to spend my time on other projects and spent $2K on the bench. The bench is rock solid and the vise hardware is second to none for precision and ruggedness. I suspect that Benchcrafted vise hardware may be as rugged as it is at the same price point, but I have not used the Benchcrafted vise myself.

I was quoted $100 for crating and $500 for shipping which was why I took the van down to pick it up. Not really and option for you though. The crate is solid and I am sure your bench would arrive in good shape.

I have no regrets as the bench is super and does all that I ask of it. I may build another one someday when I have more time, but there is no pressing need now that I have this one.

[David Weaver]

I'm not into the economic arguments in terms of what someone else would need to make a living. If we went by that, none of us would make anything in our shops (unless among us are some trim carpenters and folks making cabinets with kreg screws, and with a good client list).

To me, it's not worth it. I can get 8/4 hard maple here for about $4 a foot. figure if I got stuck with a lot of 6" boards, I would either have to decide around 3" finished, or waste half of it. I'd laminate the legs, and I'd probably get cheaper hardware.

I personally wouldn't spend $2650 for it, a lot of folks wouldn't, but my decision doesn't have to be anyone else's decision. I could build that bench quickly enough to make it worth my time if I felt the need for another bench. I'm not going to disparage anyone who doesn't mind spending it, though. Just my opinion on what direction I'd go. I'd be ecstatic if I got $25 of economic value out of every hour I was in the shop.

[Steve Meliza]

Life's too short to spend it getting your workshop and tools ready so if you have the money why not? Seriously, the guy is buying 250 lbs of 100% made in USA quality workbench and supporting a fantastic tool company in the process.

[Chris Fournier]

Life's too short to spend it getting your workshop and tools ready so if you have the money why not? Seriously, the guy is buying 250 lbs of 100% made in USA quality workbench and supporting a fantastic tool company in the process.

I spent a year getting my at the time humble shop up and running. I got into woodworkng to build guitars. I worked wood for an entire year before I considered building a guitar. I built a bench, my own cam clamps, a router table, a wood rack, jigs and fixtures etc. This was the beginning of my apprenticeship and I would do it all over again the same way. I can't understand why a woodworker would want to buy a bench, it is your primary tool and the centre of your shop. You touch it every day. My benches are the expression of how I work and they are made out of wood, with tools that are in my shop!

If you are a high powered executive, brain surgeon, investment banker and you "don't have time" that still doesn't really cut it. Your bench is personal. It is a woodworking challenge. You should rise up to the task and make one. Once you have you wil have no regrets. I am certain of it!

[Jim Koepke]

Life's too short to spend it getting your workshop and tools ready so if you have the money why not? Seriously, the guy is buying 250 lbs of 100% made in USA quality workbench and supporting a fantastic tool company in the process.


I can't understand why a woodworker would want to buy a bench, it is your primary tool and the centre of your shop. You touch it every day. My benches are the expression of how I work and they are made out of wood, with tools that are in my shop!

STOP! STOP! You are both right.

My first attempt at bench building convinced me one almost needs an adequate bench to make a bench. So I bought an economy bench that has served me well for a few years.

There are great reasons for building one's own bench and every other tool they need in the shop.

There is also good reason to purchase the best tools, a bench is a tool, if you can afford them in order to devote all of one's time to the art of production.

My preference is for Stanley/Bailey planes. Surely there are just as many wooden plane enthusiasts who consider me a poser for my choice of planes as there are Veritas or Lie-Nielsen devotees who think the same for their own reasons.

jtk

[roger m lance]

As much as some may wish to dismiss it, you can not buy what building your own bench does for you.

[John T Barker]

David-I was shocked when I saw this in the Neanderthal section of this forum. I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk but I don't understand what you are doing. If you NEED a bench then you can't wait until October. I took a look at their web site and was really expecting to see some really nice bench, nice vises, cabinet underneath, etc. I don't see $2000 in what they are selling you. When I set up my own shop I went out and got the maple, glued it up, put some Record vises on it and starting building furniture. It's not as pretty as some of the traditional benches I've seen in shops I worked in or books I've acquired but it gets the job done. It is a tool and I adapt it to what I need it to do. Some day I might improve it a bit.

Again, don't want to sound like a jerk but I thought a Neanderthals would build his own bench.

[Matthew Hills]

Many tradeoffs can be made...

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/maple-workbench-top-pair-12-4.aspx

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/blasts2013/benchtop2.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

As much as some may wish to dismiss it, you can not buy what building your own bench does for you.

Of course not. That is one of the biggest advantages of making your own. The experience, the trials and errors staring at you every time you stand before your work.

jtk

[John Sanford]

The tradeoffs are all about what each individual values. Not what anybody else values.

The "Roubo slabs" from Highland are interesting, but those are $800 plus shipping. Going that route one would still have to source the wood for and then build the base, as well as pay for the hardware.

My first bench was a solid core door on a shop built base (from Sam Allen's workbench book), with a Record vise mounted to it. "I built it myself".

The solid core top was rendered unfit and disposed of in a subsequent move, replaced with a Jorgensen solid maple top. That bench is due to be replaced by the stacks of soft and hard maple out in my garage. The shop gnomes seem to be on strike though, so it looks like I'm going to have to build it myself. The advantage to building it myself is I will get much closer to what I think I want than if I purchased a ready made bench. The disadvantage is I have to actually build it. Wrestling around all those big honkin slabs of hard maple isn't something I'm looking forward to, but I AM looking foward to the final result.

Some of you busting the OP's chops because "he should build his own bench" are, to put it bluntly, rude fools. Does building his own bench get him a secret decoder ring? Does buying a bench make him less of a woodworker. Would you be willing to say it to him in person, in his own shop? Rite of passage my keester. He's not an apprentice is a medieval guild system.

Where does it stop? What if you don't make your own tool handles? Oh, I suppose you aren't are real woodworker anymore. :rolleyes: Buy a BCTW Kerfmaker instead of making one yourself? Must have more money than sens, er, time. Etc, etc.

The OP has spent time at the College of the Redwoods. I've built my bench, but knowing what I do of the program there, and my own skills, I'd be willing to venture that if he's a graduate of the program, he's a damn sight better woodworker than me.

I, for one, applaud him for "breaking down" and taking steps to resolve a shortcoming with his tools. That he decided to purchase a LN bench rather than take the Approved Path of building his own bench is his own choice. I look forward to him posting some of what he builds on the LN bench.

[Kees Heiden]

Personally I don't understand either why you would buy that bench. But i like making stuff like that for the shop. If you don't like it and you have the money, then by all means buy that sucker!

It all boils down to, what you like to do with your time.

[Charlie Stanford]

How many years have you been building guitars, Chris?

[george wilson]

I enjoy building benches. The bench I now have is made of beechwood I had custom cut in a now defunct country saw mill. I selected beech logs and had them mill out 4" x6"'s for me. I let them dry for several years inside the shop before using them for the legs and part of the top. For the top,I got lucky and found a huge beech timber about 5" thick,and over 24" wide,about 10' long in another saw mill. Sure enough,it had a piece of barbed wire in one corner. Drilled it out and made a tight fitting boat shaped plug. I had to let it dry for several years,too. It made a 1 piece top for me,except the front piece,which has the mortices for bench dogs. The legs are 4" x 6"'s Very heavy bench.

Not everyone can get wood milled,or wait like I did,obviously. The cost of my wood was very low,too.

I like those Highland hdwe. slabs,but by the time you buy them,and pay for more wood,vises,etc.,you might have close to $2000.00 in it.

[Adam Cruea]

Build a bench, buy a bench. . .who cares?

As long as at the end of the day, you're making sawdust. :-D

I will second what someone here said and say that you need a proper bench to build a bench. I have finished my hickory bench (at least to a good, usable state) and I can say it would have been much easier with a proper bench to build it upon. All I had was a little shelving unit from IKEA my wife bought for her use. . .it's now almost destroyed and barely holds up. Wobbles if you breathe on it.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Ikea stuff does that even without you building anything on it, so it's not your fault it wobbles. It was already wobbly on the way to your house after she bought it, it just didn't know it was supposed to wobble until it settled down.

[David Weaver]

to build a bench, all you need is an unfinished door, a couple of old discard file cabinets to put it on, and a 2x4 to affix to the door to butt it against a wall (so it all stays still when you plane on it). Anyone with a power jointer would only need the door without butting it. A bench, though, would certainly be easier, I'll concede that, but if you don't have one...

But just to illustrate why I wouldn't pay $2650 for the LN bench, and my comments prior....hardwood is cheap around here if you shop around. I figured I'd go out to CL and see what my luck would be if I was in the hypothetical position of being ready to build a bench and I just wanted to take whatever I could find for lumber on CL and not go to any of the local sawyers around here who will custom cut lumber for you at half or 3/4ths of market if you have time to wait.

There are about half a dozen ads for lumber, but this one wins, I think. You could have enough 8/4+ thickness to build the bench and vise faces for about $200, maybe a little less. I didn't include the link to CL, because I don't want to get my post moved, but the picture with the sale is really nice wood, it's just short. I personally would go with plainer vise hardware, too, in practice, I have an economy vise and I've never really felt like I needed to have extremely expensive hardware. The vast majority of time I'd really like to cut out has a lot more to do with moving materials around (off of the bench) and planning things. Anyway, here's the text of the ad. A little scouting for hardware, and I could probably get the whole thing built for $400 in a couple of weeks (yes, I'd use a power planer as soon as the boards were jointed well enough for it to go in one, and I'd probably use a CMS to get quick square ends on the boards).

Large quantity (approximately 1,000 bd. ft.) of Kiln-Dried Maple lumber in 2" to 2.5" thickness. All boards are 3 ft. to 4 ft. in length. Widths are random from 5" up to 14" (the majority of boards are 8" & wider). Private stock. Will sell in lots of 100 board ft. for $150, 500 board ft. for $600, or 1,000 board ft. for $1,000. Call __________ & leave name & phone number. Will return your call ASAP.

As for the over the top comment about people being rude something or other for suggesting a bench build, I guess the club you're in if you do it is the club of having an extra 2 grand to spend on other tools or lumber. I still don't think there's anything wrong with someone else buying that bench, but I sure wouldn't do it. I just don't personally see the value, but instead I see something relatively plain that costs a lot for what it is. And my rear wouldn't pucker nearly so much the first time I drove a chisel into a shop made bench or accidentally had an overcut that marked it up.

[Adam Cruea]

As for the over the top comment about people being rude something or other for suggesting a bench build, I guess the club you're in if you do it is the club of having an extra 2 grand to spend on other tools or lumber. I still don't think there's anything wrong with someone else buying that bench, but I sure wouldn't do it. I just don't personally see the value, but instead I see something relatively plain that costs a lot for what it is. And my rear wouldn't pucker nearly so much the first time I drove a chisel into a shop made bench or accidentally had an overcut that marked it up.

This is exactly why I built my bench. I've actually already got some marks on it from the saw, so whatever. The only rule is that if my wife uses it for a painting table, it gets covered. :D


Ikea stuff does that even without you building anything on it, so it's not your fault it wobbles. It was already wobbly on the way to your house after she bought it, it just didn't know it was supposed to wobble until it settled down.

Good point, good point.

[Tai Fu]

I have been building my workbench for the past month... Can't find anything that won't wobble in Taiwan (well they do have heavy tables that's 4" thick that's essentially one section of a log, that will probably warp like crazy in a few years, costs over 3000 dollars too) so I decided to build my own out of scrap floor boards... the top took the most time, but it's finished at 2.5" thick, 66" x 26". I made the legs out of some cheap maple I found, it's all 4/4 so I had to laminate them. Was actually able to utilize some sub-par wood (had wormholes all over it) by cutting out the bad part and gluing the good part together.

The whole bench will weight in at about 75kg.

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[Steve Meliza]

I had considered building a full woodworking bench, but I would rather spend that time building furniture. I have a small home made bench. Very heavy (good), but very short (bad), and with only one vise ((bad).

This seems to have been lost in the noise. He's got a bench he could use to make another bench and he's got the time, he just wants to spend his time building furniture instead of another bench.

Also note that in his part of the country the only maple he'll find dirt cheap from a local sawmill is soft maple, if hard maple is desired it must be purchased from a hardwood dealer which around here is about $5-6 bf (it is likely higher in CA). That's still cheap compared to buying a pre-built top or the whole workbench, but you can't assume we all have suitable hardwood resources on CL.

By the way, I am squarely on the side of building your own workbench and am in the process of doing just that using 100% hand tools to do so. My own view is shame on anyone that says a hand tool woodworker should built his own bench but allows the use of power tools or PVA.

[george wilson]

So,if we express our opinions politely,we are "rude fools". I think calling someone here a rude fool is pretty rude and foolish. That post was the only rude posting I have seen in this thread,Mr. Sanford.

[Michael Ray Smith]

George, you could build anything you darned well pleased, and it would probably be worth twice as much as the same thing made by the average craftsman.

[Peter Pedisich]

David, just an FYI if you don't want to wait... Hoffmann & Hammer workbenches are on sale right now at highland Hardware.

[Charlie Stanford]

Enjoy your bench. Alan Peters worked on a bought bench, at least he did for many years I do know that. People like Peters with bona fide chops have no compunction at all about buying a bench. In many instances it is totally a case of a nickle holding up a dime (building one that is) -- even if the woodworking you do is for yourself.

I worked on an old Hoffman & Hammer for a few years and it was sheer delight -- just the right size, just the right heft for furnituremaking. Not one of these insipid Roubo benches that you can't move without a floor jack or an army of helpers. I wish I still had the old boy -- burned up in a fire.

[george wilson]

But,Charlie,I have toe jacks and Johnson bars(wheeled long handled dollies) that can lift 5000#. :)

I had a Swiss made bench in the toolmaker's shop,bought from Garrett Wade for about $2000.00 in 1986. It looked about the same as the LN bench. I had to load the blasted thing with heavy lumber to keep it from walking when I planed!! Just not heavy enough. No such problem with my own bench. If I were to dump it off a tall cliff,It'd scratch up that cliff awfully bad.:)

We made our own benches in the musical instrument shop. Everything was 4" thick. I didn't want the weight of a violin to crush it!!!

[John Sanford]

But just to illustrate why I wouldn't pay $2650 for the LN bench, and my comments prior....hardwood is cheap around here if you shop around. You don't need to illustrate why you wouldn't buy, you've already firmly established here on the Creek that frugality with money is a paramount concern for you. That said, your illustration perfectly captures part of the perception problem. You're in Western PA, where hardwood trees are falling down all the time, sometimes assisted by a chainsaw, sometimes just keeling over. The OP is on the other side of the country, where hardwood isn't quite as common, to put it lightly. If he wants to build a hardwood bench, the wood is going to cost him quite a bit more than it will cost you. I've long dealt with a similar problem on vintage tools. "Just go to the flea markets, yard sales and antique shops...". Well, the problem was, I lived in Las Vegas, and pretty much everybody in Las Vegas offloaded their tools BEFORE they moved to Vegas, often at those flea markets and yard sales y'all enjoy. Pickin's were beyond slim, thus it simply wasn't worth the time.


As for the over the top comment about people being rude something or other for suggesting a bench build, I guess the club you're in if you do it is the club of having an extra 2 grand to spend on other tools or lumber. I'll turn this around for you:
If you chase all around the countryside for cheap lumber and scour the flea markets, Craigslist, and yardsales for inexpensive vintage tools to build your bench, and then spend the days or weeks to do so, I guess you're in the club of having an bunch of extra time to spend on other projects.


I just don't personally see the value, but instead I see something relatively plain that costs a lot for what it is. Like the Japanese chisels you're waiting for? ;) After all, you CAN make your own chisels.


And my rear wouldn't pucker nearly so much the first time I drove a chisel into a shop made bench or accidentally had an overcut that marked it up. Wellll, maybe you will pucker just as much when you accidentally drive your incoming new Japanese chisel into your shopmade bench, so I can understand you trepidation at working on a LN bench with the new chisels. Probably take you a week to unpucker! :D Anybody without knowledge of what you value would look at you like you're crazy. "So what, you hit the bench with the chisel. What's the big deal?"

btw, there's an easy way to get over the fear of "damaging" one's workbench. As soon as it's done/assembled/whatever, i.e. "ready to use", just take whatever tool is handy and whack it/slash it/chunk it a couple of times. Voila, no longer "pristine".

[Michael Ray Smith]

My first "workbench" was two pieces of 3/4" MDF on two sawhorses. I think I still have those horses somewhere. . . . . unless maybe I sold them at a garage sale. Then again, I used to be an engineer, and you know what they say . . . An optimist thinks the glass is half full; a pessimist thinks the glass is half empty; an engineer thinks the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[Charlie Stanford]

But,Charlie,I have toe jacks and Johnson bars(wheeled long handled dollies) that can lift 5000#. :)

I had a Swiss made bench in the toolmaker's shop,bought from Garrett Wade for about $2000.00 in 1986. It looked about the same as the LN bench. I had to load the blasted thing with heavy lumber to keep it from walking when I planed!! Just not heavy enough. No such problem with my own bench. If I were to dump it off a tall cliff,It'd scratch up that cliff awfully bad.:)

We made our own benches in the musical instrument shop. Everything was 4" thick. I didn't want the weight of a violin to crush it!!!

As robust as need be:

http://www.workbenches.se/en/index.php (http://www.workbenches.se/en/index.php)

Not sure why you need(ed) that much weight to keep the bench from shucking across the floor George. A large part of the western woodworking world does not.

[David Weaver]

Ahh, there really isn't universal frugality for me. It's selective. If I can make something, and I can do it for a significant savings, then I will do it.

One thing that is absolutely and perfectly true, I can't make chisels that come remotely close to the quality of the japanese chisels. I have made some irons and some little cutting tools, etc. I'll never pay much for a marking knife unless it's forged. I can make anything that's not. But none of my cutting tools come close to japanese stuff. My wares are fine for marking tools and moulding planes, but I'll defer to the forgers for the chisels.

In this case, if someone dumped a 7 foot hoffman and hammer bench on my CL for a grand, I'd probably buy it. I'm still working with an inexpensive bench that's modified and weighted enough to make it tolerable, and I really don't like the idea of building a bench that much. But I like the idea of spending almost three big ones on a very plain bench a whole lot less than that, and if I can manage to break my lightweight 6 foot bench, I'll replace it with something long enough to do mouldings on.

If I was in the PNW, I would just build it with the hardest dry stuff I could find. If I was in vegas, it'd probably end up being made mostly of DF or SP 4x4s and clearance laminated countertop from lumber liquidators. There's always a way, and I'm definitely not attached the the idea that the entire bench should be musical grade wood all of the same type.

Everyone's got something they like to spend money on, even the folks on here who chide people for spending anything at all on anything. I'm not that frugal, just with things I can make myself, where as my mother says, I can be so cheap that I'd "skin a fart for a nickel".

[Jim Koepke]

Not sure why you need(ed) that much weight to keep the bench from shucking across the floor George. A large part of the western woodworking world does not.

Enough people have encountered the problem to inspire a few threads here on the subject.

Mine has a bucket with 60 lbs. of concrete holding one end down and it still has a bit of a tendency to walk.

jtk

[george wilson]

I am 6'5" and was pretty strong is why,Charlie. Or,maybe I'm just too stupid to know what I need in a bench,do you think?

I don't care for birch,and I wouldn't care to pay the shipping from Sweden. They make everything from birch,because birch is about the only hard wood they have. In Alaska,I found the same thing.

[Charlie Stanford]

Enough people have encountered the problem to inspire a few threads here on the subject.

Mine has a bucket with 60 lbs. of concrete holding one end down and it still has a bit of a tendency to walk.

jtk


I never made the H&H shudder once that I can recall. Something doesn't sound right. You guys may be putting in more effort than is required.

You sure your edges are sharp? ;)

[Charlie Stanford]

I have no idea why you would need to push so hard on furniture sized (or smaller) pieces of stock assuming you're using quality tools with a sharp edge. If you hadn't told me how tall you are I would have said you were working at too high a bench and could not get properly on top of the work.

[george wilson]

When using that large jointer I made and posted here,with a 3" iron,the bench would want to walk. I had to make looms one time. They had lots of battens in them. I'd make them nice and dead smooth,finishing with 1 swipe of that plane. They were about 3 feet long.

Of course,at that time I was using a large piece of flint for a blade.

Charlie,I am getting you confused with SANFORD. I am miffed with him for calling everyone who doesn't agree with him rude fools.

[george wilson]

I know David,and he is not frugal OR poor!! He IS selective about what he will spend money on. I think he'd spend that much on stones or chisels,but not on a bench. In fact,I'm sure he's spent that much on stones!

[Charlie Stanford]

Not the same guy.

.262206

Only 28" long with a 2 1/2" iron but it gets the job done.

[David Weaver]

I probably have more than that in chisels, might be close if I totaled it up. I have more than that in stones.

I have been unsuccessful so far at trying to manufacture natural stones, even though I've sat on sediment and squeezed hard.

[David Weaver]

Not the same guy.

.262206

Only 28" long with a 2 1/2" iron but it gets the job done.

What happened to the handle? it looks like a bear cub with vitiligo. Is that a repair or a preferential modification?

Beats dropping and breaking a container of dykem, though. I can attest to that.

[Charlie Stanford]

It is indeed a fresh repair. I'll stain it when I get a round tuit.

[george wilson]

Here's a few small planes I really threw together. They make ordinary benches walk.:)

Made to assist my carpal tunnel.Bad picture.

[Charlie Stanford]

Here's a few small planes I really threw together. They make ordinary benches walk.:)

Made to assist my carpal tunnel.Bad picture.

Little 'beauts that's for sure. The whole instrument making thing makes my head hurt.

[george wilson]

Really,I quickly made them when my fingers with arthritis hurt too much from grasping small violin planes. One of the black knobs was taken off some beat up machine. I said carpal tunnel,but just remembered why I made them.

More pictures of one of the planes,and a few others. I cast the one on the upper right years ago,when I made a furnace. Since I had to work outside,it wasn't that much fun,so I got out of the habit.

As you can see,I didn't bother to get rid of the milling machine marks. Just a quickly needed plane for planing guitar struts. 01 blades.

[David Weaver]

It is indeed a fresh repair. I'll stain it when I get a round tuit.

It doesn't look bad. Just curious. You never know what people might do to a plane on purpose....why, right in this thread there are two planes with video game controller knobs sticking right out of the backs.

[george wilson]

If you can get those knobs off video games,I'll stop buying them!! These are at least bakelite.

[Charlie Stanford]

It doesn't look bad. Just curious. You never know what people might do to a plane on purpose....why, right in this thread there are two planes with video game controller knobs sticking right out of the backs.

I honestly don't use the thing all that much. I use an old 1930s (or so) Record No. 6 constantly. It never leaves the benchtop.

[David Dalzell]

I looked at thr Hoffman & Hammer benches but I like the LN design more.

[glenn bradley]

I thought they resolved that issue where the vise handle sticks up above the bench surface? The website still shows the handle end-knob sticking up where it will get whacked. :confused:

Maybe I shouldn't move things beyond the edge of the bench? :p It is a beautiful bench.

[Charlie Stanford]

The old ones were better. A lot like a lot of stuff. L-N makes a fine bench I'm sure. Use it in good health. Here's to you.....

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Charlie, whatever you're making here, you have to share what you're making when it's done. I'm intrigued.


Not the same guy.

.262206

Only 28" long with a 2 1/2" iron but it gets the job done.

I haven't really anything to add to the thread, I can see this equation from both sides, and we've all got to make our own calculus. The 650 shipping sounds high but not crazy for Maine to California.

[george wilson]

Actually,IIRC,Grizzly charges less than that to deliver a machine which is heavier than the bench. Maybe I'm wrong. There is some discussion that the deliverer sets the bench up,though. Don't know how that works.

[Jim Barrett]

Actually,IIRC,Grizzly charges less than that to deliver a machine which is heavier than the bench. Maybe I'm wrong. There is some discussion that the deliverer sets the bench up,though. Don't know how that works.

Correct, they humped the bench into my shop and set it up for me...I assume if I had a basement shop they would have maneuvered the bench into the basement as well...

Jim

[David Weaver]

I couldn't really find fault with the delivery charge if it's lift gate and in the house, either. When you detail freight charges with liftgate and inside delivery, they are always high, and LN probably doesn't get the kind of rates that the bigger players do. It's the total price together, and it shouldn't be confused that I "wouldn't buy LN stuff", because that's way off the mark. To this point, i have or have had the following from tom and his employees (we'll call them tomrades).

5 planemaker's floats (still have them all)
8 videos (still have all of the ones related to moulding planes)
3 LN mortise sash mortise chisels.
4 1/2, 6,7,8,9 (still have the 7, i ditched the rest of them because I kind of like bench planes where I don't care so much if they get some surface rust by accident)
large shoulder plane (still have it)
60 1/2 (still have it)
right skew with nicker (still have it)
10 1/2 (or whatever their carriage rabbet is called - still have it, too)
scrub

I'm sure I'm missing some things. I kept what I wanted of the bunch, they make good stuff and provide good service.

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie, whatever you're making here, you have to share what you're making when it's done. I'm intrigued.



I haven't really anything to add to the thread, I can see this equation from both sides, and we've all got to make our own calculus. The 650 shipping sounds high but not crazy for Maine to California.

Clissett ladderback armchair. It's probably going to sit for a while longer cooking in the forms. I have another job to work on using the cherry in the background. But I will post pictures when it's done. The plane is sitting on another style slat bending form I use. It's not part of the project, but just a convenient place to set the plane for the picture.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello David, Congrats on the new bench--pricey for sure, but a lifetime investment. And a good value (even with the shipping). I have ~$700 into the one I'm building for vises and hardware, etc. (nevermind the costs of machine time, wear and tear). And I got the wood for free. And even though I'm more than half way done, i'll be lucky to finish by October. Good luck and enjoy.Chris C.

[Chris Griggs]

I think that will be a great bench. Its a lot of money, yeah, but building a bench is a lot of work...wood prices can vary a lot and its a lot of wood, and good vises certainly aren't cheap. No, I wouldn't spend that on a bench, but I don' t have that kind of money to put towards a bench anyway and I also like building tools, but if you have no interest in building a bench, have the cash, and want to get straight to work on other stuff I think that bench is great option. Congrats, I'm sure it will be very very nice to use, and that once you have it you'll feel like it was worth the wait. The LN vises really seem to be very nice vises too.

[Derek Cohen]

David, enjoy your bench. It is special and will make your woodworking a joy.

For reference, if you are looking for any type of justification, I built my bench base from "free" Jarrah roofing rafters I had salvaged. However the Oak top cost me about $500 in rough sawn timber and, although I built the leg vise, the tail vise is by BenchCrafted, which would have cost another $500 after shipping. Add in 8 or 9 weekends in labour costs, roughly 120 hours. Quality does not come cheaply.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I never made the H&H shudder once that I can recall. Something doesn't sound right. You guys may be putting in more effort than is required.

You sure your edges are sharp? ;)

Yes, my edges are sharp.

My bench is only 5' long. I am often working pieces longer than that, up to 10'. My current bench is fairly light. The legs and frame are made of 2X3 material. Being 6' tall and in the 235 lb range I can make cars shudder when bumping into them.

When debarking or removing saw marks, I don't do delicate. Even a sharp blade is going to transfer some energy when it hits a rough spot of wood or a knot.

jtk

[John Sanford]

George, I'm not calling EVERYONE rude fools, only those who gave me the impression that they subscribe to the notion that "real woodworkers build their own benches" and thus the corollary that poseurs buy. 'Tis a notion that miffs me. Given the context of the OP (I read it as a wistful (because of the delay) gloat), I felt it rude to knockabout the OP's choice to buy.

As for confusing me with Charlie, if his experience is anything like mine, he's probably used to it. Us Sanfords, Stanfords, and Sandfords are constantly being mixed about, not sure about Standfords, never actually met one of them. I apologize to Charlie for bringing some miff down upon him though.

Next time you and David W. have the opportunity to get together, feel free to hoist a pint and implore the Forest Gods to drop a small deadfall of balsa on me. ;)

[David Weaver]

George, I'm not calling EVERYONE rude fools, only those who gave me the impression that they subscribe to the notion that "real woodworkers build their own benches" and thus the corollary that poseurs buy.

Yeah, I would never use something other than price and whether or not you might like it yourself as the metric, has nothing to do with being a real woodworker or not. Hopefully a "real woodworker" can build something a little more stylish than a bench.

[george wilson]

I actually LIKE to make benches,though by now I'm a bit too worn out in several places to lift heavy things. I even made all my steel parts for my end vise. Screws,handle,tracks and all. Much more stylish than anything you could buy.

[roger m lance]

In thinking about the TV woodworkers, only David Marks and Marc Spagnuolo made their own bench. The others must have been to busy making other stuff to make their own bench.

[David Weaver]

Either that, or they have the option of getting a free bench because they have sponsors. Or perhaps even they must use the benches supplied to them as part an advertising contract.

Professional woodworkers (as opposed to people who make their revenue from TV more so than dollars from projects commissioned on their own merits) would be a better barometer.

[george wilson]

But,David,pros wouldn't be any fun. The millwork Shop in the museum did literally tons of work every year. Everything from making new or rebuilding lawn furniture,repairing horse drawn wagons,rebuilding stair cases. Everything. They even made a fine coach there years ago before I came in 1970.

Their benches were very large,like 3" or more wide X 10' long,made from nailed together 2" x 6"'s,with formica or something else on their tops to keep them smooth. They had 1 old regular type cast iron vise per bench. They sharpened their tools with india stones sitting in a gallon can half full of kerosene. No strops. I did give 1 guy a fractionate years ago,before I found out they were valuable! He has re flattened it till it is about half original thickness. Oh,they have a worn diamond stone,too. They use large old wheel (normal) grinders to grind their tools. Their Northfield bandsaw forever has a 1/2" blade in it,never welded straight by the maintenance blacksmith. I gave them a nearly new 18" Jet I had bought,but wasn't satisfied with,after I wasted more money buying Carter guide outfits for it. I squeezed the old 20" Delta into it's place. Had thought the Delta was too big to go where I re positioned it.

They had 1 set of a dozen old carving tools. One of them used one of those horrid rasp/chisels someone gave him. A favorite thing to do was take a LONG planer blade and make the longest chisel in the shop from it. Their ancient Crescent wood lathe's tailstock was way out of line with the headstock,causing frequent re tightening of the tailstock to be needed. The oscillating rotary action caused the spur center to eat into the wood. I meant to fix that,but didn't get to it.

With this equipment they made some pretty remarkable stuff.

[David Weaver]

I don't remember the big rush for perfect looking benches until there was a book written about it. I remember you telling me you gave that guy a super punjab stone to sharpen. I can imagine he probably likes it a lot.

I have a pretty good idea what I'm going to do when I finally break the bench that I have. The bottom of the bench top isn't going to be perfect, and I'll probably get a used front vise (not QR) of the type that doesn't have a metal jaw, and a simple tail vise. But for sure it will be 8 feet long to make it nice to cut mouldings, and it will have a skirt so I can put pegs in the skirt to plane long boards.

Well, if a big H&H bench shows up on CL here for a thousand or less, I'd probably get that, but the odds of it showing up for more than new price is better than that.

[george wilson]

When a well worn old bench does show up,I think often as not,it is snapped up by some interior decorator as a decorative item. Could end up in a Cracker Barrel restaurant.

[David Weaver]

There are plenty here that should be reassigned for that. One every month or so on CL, maybe. there was one the last time I looked that was about 5 feet long with three flatsawn boards laid flat on the surface, and it was OLD. The middle board ends probably stuck up 3" above the plane of the table.

[Winton Applegate]

Selling furniture to furniture makers.
It's like trying to sell ice to Eskimos.
I have to stick my tung in my cheek when ever I see wooden tool boxes and metal drawer component thingys for making quick work shop drawers sold in woodworking tool catalogs.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=46037&cat=1,43326
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2005901/18017/gerstner-gi532-10-drawer-tool-chest.aspx
Yah gotta love it.
What's next ? The guy in the fridge truck showing up at a cattle ranch trying to sell them beef ?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have to stick my tung in my cheek when ever I see wooden tool boxes and metal drawer component thingys for making quick work shop drawers sold in woodworking tool catalogs.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=46037&cat=1,43326
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2005901/18017/gerstner-gi532-10-drawer-tool-chest.aspx
Yah gotta love it.
What's next ? The guy in the fridge truck showing up at a cattle ranch trying to sell them beef ?

I don't know - I enjoy making shop things, and it's a good place to practice joinery on something that doesn't quite "matter" as much as nice piece for the living room, but ready made solutions are nice, too. I have limited time in the shop, I'd rather spend it doing something I enjoy. When I enjoy making a shop thing, I go for it. When I don't, I buy.

If I was doing this to make any sort of money, every minute spent making something to store my tools would be a minute spent not making something I could actually sell to my customer. A pre-made drawer or solution is great at this point if the cost is right.

[Pat Barry]

I tend to agree with Winton. Even if I were a professional, which I certainly am not, making my own jigs and fixtures would be the preference. I would get EXACTLY what I need and the price would be right. Now certainly that doesn't mean i would make my own drill bits, but if I've got to buy a workbench for my shop, then someone has to pay for it somehow and if I buy a $2000 bench with $600 plus shipping cost, that cost has to be amortized across pieces I make and that drives my price up. I would insist on building nearly everything I could out of wood scraps I had left over from completed jobs and doing it while I am waiting for glue to dry on paying customer projects. I'm not dissing the LN bench. Its a beauty and obviously there are customers for it. For me though, as a hobbyist, even if I got this as a gift I would rather have had the money spent on lots of other things I need.

[Steve Meliza]

Here is the best of both worlds:
http://benchcrafted.blogspot.com/p/the-french-oak-roubo-project.html

You pay $4500 plus travel, food, and lodging and you still get to build it yourself! Wonder of wonders, they are full up and have a wait list.

[David Weaver]

There are plenty of doctors, lawyers and retirees.... I used to say doctors and lawyers, but stole the retirees part from Warren M, as he pointed out the one-subject classes in general are unlikely to be populated by professional woodworkers.

[John Sanford]

Selling furniture to furniture makers.Happens all the time. Do you know how much software the average programmer buys? Why, surely he could write it himself!


It's like trying to sell ice to Eskimos.No, it very much unlike selling ice to Eskimos. Eskimos don't MAKE the ice.


I have to stick my tung in my cheek when ever I see wooden tool boxes and metal drawer component thingys for making quick work shop drawers sold in woodworking tool catalogs. Yep, for folks who would rather build furniture than shop stuff, it makes sense.


Yah gotta love it.
What's next ? The guy in the fridge truck showing up at a cattle ranch trying to sell them beef ? Yes. Because its a cattle ranch, not a meat packing plant. Heck, you might even find store bought ice cream at a DAIRY. Heaven forfend!

[David Weaver]

Purchasing code is not similar to purchasing a workbench. There's a WHOLE lot more intellectual capital in purchasing code, and I can pass 1000 people a piece of code for essentially the same price as 1. That makes it so that it won't make economic sense for me to write code that is already standardized and available.

The same economics don't exist with the benches.

[Tai Fu]

If you're running a furniture production shop and you want to be building now, then it makes sense to buy workbench that you know is going to work.

Also I find that the whole marketing thing seems to have little to do with common sense, because many successful products make very little sense if you really think about it.

[Mark Roderick]

Certainly an interesting thread, though somewhat predictable.

I am also one of those that would have recommended building a bench, as I did. But when I stop and think about it, why a bench? Why not purchase a bench and build, say, a chair or a table or a canoe paddle?

I don't think there's a rational answer to that question.

Why do we purchase Lie Nielsen planes rather than build our own? Why not build our own straight-edges and squares? Why is using electric lights okay but not electric saws? When we start trying to draw lines in this area we're really talking about aesthetic choices, or lifestyle choices, as to which there can never be a right or wrong answer or even, frankly, worthwhile advice. It's just "What kind of aesthetic do you prefer?"

As to the value of a Lie-Nielsen bench, I do think it's silly to say they're "too much." Compared to what? Compared to a Unisaw? If we were hired to build a bench I pretty much guaranty that none of us would do it for $2,650 delivered across the country. Does that mean beginninger should buy a Lie-Nielsen bench rather than build one? It is irrelevant to the question. It's like asking whether I should spend $2,650 on a tool or go on a ski trip.

Just my thoughts.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, we all know that in these threads where everyone is qualified to opine (since there really are none, other than having bought or made a bench, or at least having thought about it).

The comparison to the planes, though....certainly there's no reason to ever buy an LN plane. A beginner will find themselves more competent with them - the mouth is clean, little needs to be done to the iron, they are super flat - but after a while, you find that there's no advantage in tearout with them, the chipbreaker isn't a better design than the original and really the only practical advantage they have over a flat vintage plane is that the iron is better quality.

But, if you were going to try to make a plane, you'd find it hard to do if you thought you'd like to make a casting, etc. Or anything out of metal.

The unisaw would be particularly difficult to shop make.

But the bench isn't. And the specs (type of wood, type of vises, etc) are more variable.

All of that said, if I was made of money and thought I'd never move, I'd buy a bench. If I really hated the idea of building a bench that much, I'd make a bench. If I had irrational desire to start building mediocre items right away that were not for clients paying more than the bench was worth...then I'd probably do it. And, of course, if I find an 8 foot bench with a tail vise being dumped for half of new price, I'd probably buy it.

But the bench doesn't fit in the space for planes, for software, for unisaws, because they're not the same thing. I hope we stop talking about them soon, though, or I'm going to end up making one as soon as I'm done redoing my kitchen. And I really don't need a better bench at this point.

[Mike Holbrook]

So I was doing a search on Adjust-A-Bench trying to find some info I was curious about in regard to bench builds using an AAB as the base and found this thread, again. I thought I would toss in another possible compromise for those who want a bench in a hurry or want features that may not be available on commercially made benches. I am not taking the position that people should buy instead of build their bench. It just occurred to me that the following option might provide some of the benefits of both the build your own and buy something you can get to the "real" work on sooner philosophies.

Two items, both available through Highland Woodworking, provide a solution with a great many of the currently popular features in bench design without eliminating too many other features. I will leave it to each individual to decide what features may actually benefit them in the work they have planed.

The two items are the Adjust-A-Bench bench base and the Roubo Workbench Top. Certainly buying these two items is a significant investment but also certainly within the financial reach of anyone considering buying and paying the shipping for a "full size" commercial workbench. These two items provide a reasonably sturdy adjustable height base and a 24" wide 4" thick, either 6 or 8' long hard maple bench top. The bench top comes in two 12" wide pieces that can either be joined as a split top or glued together to make a classic 24" wide top. The two halves "come pre-bored for the included Domino tenons to ensure perfect alignment". Simply mounting the top on the base provides a basic bench that the individual can then mount whatever vises... they desire on. There is also a locking caster system available from Noden that can make the bench mobile as well as adjustable in height.

I don't have a dog in the which is the proper way to obtain a bench fight. I built my first bench out of 2x4's, plywood and an old Record QR vise. I am now putting together an Adjust-A-Bench work surface that I will use as work support and a place to build a heavy duty planing bench. Clearly I am firmly entrenched in both camps.

[Jim Matthews]

Time is the one thing you'll never replace.

This is a reasonable choice.
Had I not lucked into a second hand bench, this was on my short list to purchase.

May you have many happy years together.

[Jim Matthews]

And my rear wouldn't pucker nearly so much the first time I drove a chisel into a shop made bench or accidentally had an overcut that marked it up.

My first day with my BMW R100/s, my riding buddies bought me a small ball pein hammer to "Get it over with".
I'm on the flip side with benches - I know too many that have spent their woodworking mojo on building a showpiece bench with fancy inlays and expensive tack
only to lose interest in the craft shortly thereafter.

I think the OP knows enough about bench building to exchange money for time.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're running a furniture production shop and you want to be building now, then it makes sense to buy workbench that you know is going to work.

I couldn't have said it better, myself. If the buyer has pending orders, any time spent working this is a debit on his ledger.
If the materials cost approach half the price of the item, this is a genuine bargain.

I'm with the OP, I hate spending time making shop tools and a bench is a HUGE time commitment.

[Paul McGaha]

I think the price went up on that bench, to $2,500:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=1-B-LNA

PHM

[Lloyd Robins]

David congratulations. I am certain the bench will serve you well. I have never seen anything LN that was not well built. as to the thread this is a bit of a Mac vs PC arguement again except for the learning and skills involved in building a bench. I just checked Benchcrafted and tail and leg vises (with crisscross) are about $800 dollars. In my area getting 12/4 maple costs about $12.99/bf plus shipping. We are starting to get close in price considering the hours to build. I am quite happy with my Noden and when the top goes I will just replace the top. I may consider using battens, holdfasts, and my Moxon instead of traditional vises. Anyway, I am also very limited in shop time, so I certainly understand your choice. I would not be able to build the bench in the time that you will wait for yours. Enjoy it when it arrives.

[Jim Matthews]

What do the prefabricated Roubo tops weigh?

Hoisting that up and down on the Nowden Adjust-A-Bench legs would be daunting, at full height.
(240 pounds, for two of the larger ones - plus all the stuff I keep stacked on top...)

I would go with a lighter adjustable top, and load up the legs with sandbags for ballast.

[Mike Holbrook]

Noden has a video on their site, showing 1600 lbs of cinder block stacked on top of one of their benches with a 1 3/4" top, al least it didn't break. Some of the threads from posters here, who have the bench, provide instructions on adding spring systems to help raise and lower heavy bench tops with lots of other things attached. I think these guys were using benches with much heavier loads attached than a 4" top with a vise or two on it. I think someone posted that they did not have a problem lifting each end with a heavy top and a couple of vises too.

One of our posters added large adjustable feet beside his casters. I think he lowers these to steady the bench for planing and other work that might cause the bench to want to move with just locking casters. I am surmising a good deal from pictures though.

[Lloyd Robins]

Jim, I absolutely agree. A Roubo top on an Adjust-A-Bench would put a person in the hospital unless they were in better shape than I am. :D I currently have a composite top of Oak plywood and MDF that I made many years ago. It is heavy, but not that heavy. I drilled 7/8 dog holes and added 3/4" id copper tubing. I intended for it to be more temporary, but it works great with all the accessories including the TFWW holdfasts, so I just haven't changed it out yet. I really don't seem to have much movement when planing, as the legs add a lot of weight, but I probably will have to do something to add some weight when I exchange wood for MDF.

[Jay Radke]

with that price you should consider signing up for Jeff Millers next bench build classes. i know your not in the Chicago area but you would get great hands on skills, just that you would need to be in Chicago for two consecutive weekends. it was well worth it for me.

[Mike Holbrook]

My idea actually has been to build two benches. A low planing bench with a Benchcrafted leg vise....and a Adjusta-A-Bench targeted more for dovetailing, working at higher levels, with a Moxxon, Twin Screw or Veeritas QR Tail vise. The AAB will also be an infeed /outfeed for a bandsaw and a planer. What I am trying to get a handle on at the moment is whether or not I can make the AAB such that it will allow me to use it for the planing jobs until I get the "low" bench made? I would use the AAB for instance to plane the pieces I need for the low bench.

The old you need a bench to make a bench thing. Plus I am excited about having a mobile AAB infeed for large pieces.

[Tom Vanzant]

Mike, your mailbox if full. Left two (duplicate) PMs.

[Jack Curtis]

My idea actually has been to build two benches. A low planing bench with a Benchcrafted leg vise...

If you want a separate planing bench, why not try a Japanese style planing beam? Maximum flexibility and gravity help and minimum space required.

[Jim Matthews]

I drilled 7/8 dog holes and added 3/4" id copper tubing.

Okay, that's clever.

[Mike Holbrook]

Well it seems we are wandering off the OP's topic or skirting the border of it. I am trying to do a built from scratch bench and a bench with prebuilt parts too, though which I hope is relevant. I see Highland Woodworking has their Hammer benches on sale at the moment. The prices I saw are much lower than those I have seen in this thread. Highland seems to run bench specials regularly.

I don't know what a Japanese style planing beam is? I have wood in my shop for the bench build though. I'm sure there are many other things the wood could be used for.

[Jack Curtis]

...I don't know what a Japanese style planing beam is? I have wood in my shop for the bench build though. I'm sure there are many other things the wood could be used for.

It's a big beam, say 8" square by 8' long or longer. Each end is held in a cross piece, one end higher than the other. You put the piece to be planed on top and plane down hill. If you need to, a couple of screws in the lower end will hold the piece in place. You can also nail a long thin board to the side and use that to hold a piece as a sticking board. Let gravity be your friend. Here's an example: http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkPkMpCZS6D0AVWuJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTFybz U1N2k3BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlYzI1ZDNlYTZlODJm MTgxNjUxYTE3MTAxN2IyZjZmZARncG9zAzEz?back=http%3A% 2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_ adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Djapanese%2Bplaning%2Bbeam% 26fr%3Daaplw%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D13&w=480&h=360&imgurl=i.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fnw2XWZn_SvQ%2Fhqdefault. jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yourepeat.com%2Fg%2FKanna%28 Planer%29%2F&size=15.2KB&name=Search+results+for+%22Kanna%28Planer%29%22&p=japanese+planing+beam&oid=ec25d3ea6e82f181651a171017b2f6fd&fr2=&fr=aaplw&tt=Search+results+for+%22Kanna%28Planer%29%22&b=0&ni=21&no=13&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=119s8crcf&sigb=13gsoivtn&sigi=118obmk73&.crumb=JjOHlPp3ulg&fr=aaplw

PS, I like them a lot, so I installed a smaller (say 4" square) version with a bench slave on the back side of my bench. Works great.

[Lloyd Robins]

Mike, Japanese planing beam (bench) at http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/a-japanese-workbench . The sometimes have one end higher than the other to allow gravity to help. There are all kinds of variations.

Jim, I read about the idea somewhere and decided to try it.

[David Weaver]

David congratulations. I am certain the bench will serve you well. I have never seen anything LN that was not well built. as to the thread this is a bit of a Mac vs PC arguement again except for the learning and skills involved in building a bench. I just checked Benchcrafted and tail and leg vises (with crisscross) are about $800 dollars. In my area getting 12/4 maple costs about $12.99/bf plus shipping. We are starting to get close in price considering the hours to build. I am quite happy with my Noden and when the top goes I will just replace the top. I may consider using battens, holdfasts, and my Moxon instead of traditional vises. Anyway, I am also very limited in shop time, so I certainly understand your choice. I would not be able to build the bench in the time that you will wait for yours. Enjoy it when it arrives.

I can't remember what I was so ardent about, but I went and checked here. Hardwood grows here like it grows on.....trees. So, we have a lot of lumber suppliers here who will ship. I personally wouldn't buy 12/4 if it was for a bench, the premium is too great unless you can get a local sawyer to slab a tree for you (in that case, the sawyer will likely charge you about the same per BF regardless of the dimensions). At any rate, this is a place I've been to, and they ship free in the continental US with 150 bf of wood. that might be more than a bench would need, but it would give you extra to build fixtures, moxon vises, etc.

https://www.westpennhardwoods.com/catalog/Prime-Hard-Maple-Lumber.aspx?guid=2f2e4975-689b-411a-816d-fbe8725b6f4e

(I have no idea what prime is).

If time is short and money's not, then buying seems the way to go. Otherwise, as my mother says, you can always look for a way to skin a fart for a nickel. I really don't know what that means, but I think it just means figure out a cheaper way - $5.50 with no tax and no shipping would be that in your case. In my case, I would buy whatever was on CL for $1 or $2 a BF, but recognize that's probably not going to be an option in LA.

And I'd skip the $800 boutique hardware. It's not necessary to work wood quickly, but the social cause (or shop jewelry factor) is admirable if someone wants to buy it for that reason.

[Lloyd Robins]

David, thank you for West Penn's information!

[David Weaver]

Sure, and like I say, not trying to create an argument, just make mention because a dollar saved is a dollar that can be justified frivolity elsewhere. I've gone to west penn lumber for figured wood (which is fairly far away from me, and i'm in west penn, they're actually in NY, and I"ve had them ship me stuff depending on what I wanted).

For the first few years I woodworked, I bought all of my lumber retail from various places, and that would be OK if the quality of a lot of it wasn't so bad. We have so many options around here because cherry, maple, white oak, beech, red oak, walnut...they all grow here and there are small sawyers that will sell directly for about half what retail of the lumber would be elsewhere here (millworkshops, etc, that are really selling to people who are just going to add the cost of what they buy to a wealthy buyer), and sometimes less than half.

I can't imagine that any good wood would last too long in LA, that's perfectly understandable. My best supplier retired earlier this year (about half market price and delivered for free), so I have some things to figure out, too. I can find wood a lot of places around here, but not guys who will deliver and who have cheap and good wood.

[Mike Holbrook]

There were at least three saw mills within 10 miles of my home, until I started needing to buy hardwood. Now I can't find any. The hardwood supplier I have used recently isn't to much worse than Davids: hard maple-4/4-$5.55, Ash-$2.95, poplar $1.50, red oak $3.95, yellow pine $2.95...They have gone up since last year, so I guess I will shop around next time.

Lloyd you do not say what you thought of the Japanese planing beam, after trying it?

[Lloyd Robins]

David, I agree that a dollar saved is a dollar for more tools, oops saved. I usually get my wood from a place in Arizona. They are good people and great to deal with, but I do shop their specials. I will watch West Penn also. As to the hardware for a bench, I was just using their hardware for cost. I used a Jorgensen press screws on my Moxon not a Benchcrafted. If I had more room for a longer bench, I might try going without hardware and working with holdfasts, a moxon, and battens, but that will probably never happen.

Mike, I was going to build a Japanese planing beam and bench, and I even bought enough purpleheart to make the bases (that is where I learned how much I hate purpleheart.) Then at a woodworking show, I saw Toshio Odate using the Noden bench on display as a tilted planing bench. After consideration, and the knees not working as well as I would like, I went with the Noden. Over the years it has done everything that I need. However, with western holdfasts and a few modifications, a Japanese bench still would be something interesting to try and quite inexpensive. Bench Tools by Fine Woodworking has an extended article on using one of the benches. They call it a trestle bench. I also switched over from Japanese tools to western tools. I work a lot with oak (most cost effective in the area) and I always worried about the porous wood and Japanese saws. However, I must admit that I do wish that I had kept the Nishiki paring chisels.

[Mike Holbrook]

Lloyd, did you ever post pictures of your bench? I searched posts under your name for a while but did not find any if you did.

If I was rethinking the whole bench thing from square one starting now, I might very well just figure out how to do everything on an AAB system due to the versatility. Still I think it will be nice to have a low bench on nice wide legs, steady as a big rock, for planing and maybe chisel work with a mallet. I invested in the two vises and so I am going to use them, although I am thinking about putting one or one bench and the other on the other if for no other reason than to simplify construction. I don't think the work that is easier to do at a higher level needs as steady a base, so that is the work I plan to do on the Noden gear. I am sure there is still some truth to the old adage "jack of all trades, master of none", which is my justification for a two bench system.

Purple Heart is a pain to work, but it does make a great plane body. Steve Knight suggested the Purple Heart as the best wood for a plane body, and since he did the main cutting with his CNC gear I did not have to do any major planing on it.

[Lloyd Robins]

Mike, I did post some pictures, but I don't remember when, so here some new ones. Please pardon the stuff on the floor, I am rethinking my shop layout. My bench is not fancy, but I did spend a little extra (for me) on the legs. The top is what I could afford after buying the legs. The Kreg plate was used as a holdfast. One thing that I really like is that as I get older my bench height has gone up. Maybe I should rethink LV planes. The jack of all trades master of none describes me, except I am not certain that I qualify for being as good as "jack." My wife thinks that I am a tool buyer/seller rather than a woodworker, and she may be right.

Knight planes were fun, expecially the ones with the Japanese blades. As to purpleheart. I have some lamp tables and other items accented with purpleheart, but I traded the last of it to a friend for some turning work. I really got the better of that deal, because he turned a pen for me from the wood as an extra. :)

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[Mike Holbrook]

Lloyd, thanks for the pictures.

I was actually thinking about the Adjust-A-Bench system in regard to it being a jack of all trades device. Even in that regard I think the AAB does most things very well. I am just postulating that it might not be as steady as a heavy Roubo for planing, although with the big rubber screw down feet I have seen on at least one AAB bench I'm not even sure that is the case. The Noden casters I have on mine are on large bolts, so they can be used to balance the bench on an uneven floor adding a stability factor that fixed length legs do not have regardless of their size and weight.

I am also more of a jack of all trades kind of guy. So far my tools have been used more in construction projects than what we might term woodworking. I keep adding on to the building I built for our home business. I still have not finished finishing our basement, including my shop. I am getting more into a carpentry/cabinet making phase. Then I hope to get around to furniture. To date I have spent more time at a Festool table & home made cutting table than the compact woodworking bench I have.